Talk:Iranian Kurdistan

kurdestan map wrong

hi. its a mistake about kurdish areas in the shown map. for example northern and centeral parts of ilam provience are completly krdish area with language and culture and they are not lur areas.

real iranian kurdistan

Iranian Kurdistan or Eastern Kurdistan (Kurdish: Rojhilatê Kurdistanê), is an unofficial name for the Western parts of Iran predominantly inhabited by Kurds and borders the Kurdish regions of Iraq and Turkey. It includes Kurdistan Province, Kermanshah Province,Ilam province and parts of West Azerbaijan Province.

Sources

Hi Paradise Chronicle, I see that you have added a source to the lead [1]. The content these sources are used to support, previously said Kurds generally consider northwestern Iran to be one of the four parts of a Greater Kurdistan, which also includes parts of southeastern Turkey (Northern Kurdistan), northern Syria (Western Kurdistan) and northern Iraq (Southern Kurdistan). and on the grounds that "Source isn't Kurdish" it was changed to the current version. As I can see, the book by Ofra Bengio on page one only says Kurds inhabit in four countries (Iran, Iraq, Turkey and Syra) which is a different thing from this article. Would you please elaborate on this and the exact quote that says so? The other source, that you added, is the German book Kurden heute by Fadel Khalil published by Europaverlag in 1992. Is it a scholarly source? Has Fadel Khalil expertise or academic credentials on the subject, or is Europaverlag a reputable publisher? I think this article needs to use reputable sources only and be written with an inclusive perspective covering subjects like economy, education, climate, culture, sports, etc., but now we have a political article that needs a lot of work. Pahlevun (talk) 18:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

1.I just added a second source. I thought better a second source than no source as also the first source was sort of challenged with a cn tag. Fadil Khalil mentions that Kurds live in four parts of Kurdistan in the chapters and it depicts a map between the pages 18-19. It has been often an issue since when it was known that Kurds live in one of the four parts in other articles so I thought an older (2. edition of a book from 1985) additional source would help. It is a doctoral thesis in Book Form from the University of Vienna and can be found in other libraries as well. The Europa Verlag is a publisher which was founded following WW II and Bertrand Russell as well was Willy Brandt were published by it. Today it still has some sort of better known authors but it is not a Routledge class publisher.

2. Ofra Bengio already had its page added at Southern Kurdistan so I thought I add it here, too. The source depicts a map just above page 1, but the map has no page number on it. Maybe you know how to clarify this? I also agree that we need to add better sources, I'll help, where I can.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:26, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: Thank you for your reply. It seems the map on Bengio's book (which is attributed to İbrahim Halil Baran) does not mention any of the names northern, southern, western or eastern Kurdistan explicitly (the map says 'Kurdistan' only). Does Khalil use these terms explicitly, or it is like the map on Bengio's book? Pahlevun (talk) 20:39, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

It is a book in German, and it doesn't really have the terms northern, eastern etc. included, but it says that it is the part of Kurdistan in Turkey, Iran etc. (Lage in Türkischen Teil, Lage im Iranischen Teil etc). The map is depicted, though and North south and east can be sourced, for west we need an other source which I'll try to add now. We can also change the terms into Syrian, Turkish etc. there would be no opposition from me, but only if you agree to it.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 21:46, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

@Paradise Chronicle: Thank you for your elaboration, now it is clear that using the terms northern/southern/eastern/western Kurdistan in the article is a matter of editorial taste and should not be attributed to the sources cited. I checked the 'Kurdistan (Arabic: Kurdestan), Iran–Iraq–Syria–Turkey' entry of Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names, and therefore propose the following to replace the sentence:

It is the part of Kurdistan, a larger geographical area, that extends over Iranian soil and whose other areas are located in Turkey (Turkish Kurdistan), Iraq (the autonomous Kurdistan Region) and Syria (Syrian Kurdistan).

— Everett-Heath, John (2020), "Kurdistan", Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Place Names (5th ed.), Oxford University Press, doi:10.1093/acref/9780191905636.001.0001, ISBN 9780191905636, 'Land of the Kurds', a large geographical area that extends mainly over Iran, Iraq, and Turkey, and slightly into Syria. Despite never having been united under a single ruler nor acquiring the status of a nation-state, the Kurds, numbering some 25 million, have been able to maintain a distinct sense of identity and culture for at least the last 2,000 years; they do not, however, share a common language or religion.

Having published in 2020, the source does not use the terms with cardinal directions (which are mostly associated with Kurdish nationalists), nor has an entry for them. The Oxford book has also an entry with less words for 'Kordestan, Iran': "A province with the Persian name ‘Land of the Kurds’, a geographical region named after the Kurds. Only Iran has a province so-named. See Kurdistan." Do you agree with this replacement? Pahlevun (talk) 16:41, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Oh, sorry. You have answered me, but the first answer seemed fair to me. I have taken out the western, northern, etc. parts and replaced them the countries in which the parts of Kurdistan are located. Is this ohm for you, too? I have also added more maps for it. And yes I know, Iran is the only country that has decided for itself and without any foreign pressure (at least as far as I know), to give a province the name of the Kurds.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 19:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

That's fine. I think we can join it to the first sentence. And I don't think using these sources is needed, because Oxford does mention this. Pahlevun (talk) 20:04, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Great. I'm fine with it, too, if you think the sources are not needed. I guess the lead could be a bit longer for such a long article. Maybe you have ideas what could be added. I'll think of something, too, but with time. I'll not add anything new today.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 20:16, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

I agree that the lead should be more concise. I found scholarly works about education (doi:10.1007/s11135-009-9242-y), tourism (doi:10.1002/sd.1981) and environment (doi:10.1080/14678802.2020.1769344) in Iranian Kurdistan, and I'm sure we can find reliable sources for religion, economy, culture and many other topics to develope the article. All of these merit being represented in the lead. Pahlevun (talk) 20:48, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

"Eastern Kurdistan"

A number of reliable sources can be located displaying that an alternative name for this area is “Eastern Kurdistan.” A quick search shows that the --> “Iranian Kurdistan” entry for the UNPO (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization) states “Iranian Kurdistan, also known as eastern Kurdistan.” In addition, on page 133 of The Kurds: A Concise Handbook. By Mehrdad R. Izady. (1992). a passage reads “... and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.” In addition, there are academic journal articles such as:

• The Securitisation of Life: Eastern Kurdistan under the rule of a Perso-Shi'i state. By Kamal Soleimani & Ahmad Mohammadpour. Third World Quarterly. Volume 41, Issue 4, (2020). pgs. 663-682.

• Religion and Politics in Eastern Kurdistan (With a Focus on Maktab Qur’an During Iranian Revolution, 1979). By Sabah Mofidi. Journal of Politics and Law Archives, Vol. 8, No. 3 (2015). pgs 36-50.

Moreover, the Iranian Government is facing an armed insurgency from the Kurdistan Free Life Party, whose male armed wing is called the YRK (Yekîneyên Rojhilatê Kurdistan) i.e. "Eastern Kurdistan Units". Now of course it is not Wikipedia's place to decide whether this region should be seen as "Eastern Kurdistan" or "northwestern Iran" etc, only to note that it is also referred to as such by a notable percentage of Kurds within a wider conception of a Greater Kurdistan with 4 regions (based on cardinal directions). This helps inform the reader that when someone says "Eastern Kurdistan", they mean this area the article is about.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 05:52, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Redthoreau: First of all, the book by Mehrdad R. Izady is talking about southern and eastern parts of Iranian Kurdistan, not "Eastern Kurdistan". The full quote is as follows:

There are also followers of the mainstream Imam (Twelver) Shi'ite Islam among the Kurds, particularly in and around the cities of Kirmanshah, Kangawar, Hamadan, Qurva, and Bijar in southern and eastern Kurdistan in Iran.

Your partial and selective quote was misleading. Why did you remove the word southern and the other parts from the quote? One of the sources you provided above, published by The Canadian Center of Science and Education (CCSE), is a predatory journal (see here [2]) and thus not reliable. Your argument on that we should use the term because PJAK –a separatist group designated as terrorist by four countries– does, is implying and affirming that it is a politically-charged term. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) is clear enough. No academic source in geography uses this term. Pahlevun (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm surprised that a pseudo-historian such as Izady is even mentioned here. Some food for thought:

Paul Joseph White, Joost Jongerden. Turkey’s Alevi Enigma: A Comprehensive Overview. Leiden: Brill Publishing, 2003, p. 22;

“The Kurdish nationalist establishment ducks this problem, sometimes because tie ants to rely on Izady as an authority who considers the Zaza and Kizilbas to be Kurds. But this is not good scholarship. Points must be proven; nothing is gained by simply appealing to authority. The Kurdish nationalist establishments claim that the Dailamites were Kurds only makes sense if one either accepts Izady’s manifestly unproven theory about the direction of their migration, simply because it suits the Kurdish nationalist project.“

“Not a single scholar or even nationalist party claims that Daylam is in Kurdistan! (Dailam was on the south-western shores of the Caspian Sea, literally hundreds of kilometres from Kurdistan!)“

Gunter, Michael M. International Journal of Middle East Studies 26, no. 2 (1994): 323-25. [3]:

”One problem with Izady is that he sometimes claims too much for the Kurds. His exaggerated assertion of a "Pontian Kurdish Empire under King Mithridates VI [the Great], ca. 86 B.C." (map, p. 37) that totally encompassed the Black Sea and included practically all of modern Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey, as well as parts of present-day Ukraine and Russia, is an example. Although Mithridates may have had some Kurdish ancestry, to refer to him as "the Kurdish Pontian king Mithridates" (p. 38) is bound to strike most historians as iconoclastic, if not simply incorrect.” p, 324

--HistoryofIran (talk) 20:20, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

Izady, if considered reliable, is not even using the term. He is merely referring to southern and eastern parts of Iranian Kurdistan. Pahlevun (talk) 21:36, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

HistoryofIran, [a] Izady is referring to the southern and yes eastern part of what he deems Kurdistan, which he places in Iran. In another usage on pg. 160 he states: “The Talibani tribe, the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan party, its leadership, and most people in the southern sectors of Iraqi Kurdistan and in eastern Kurdistan (in Iran) are Qadiris.” Notice he says Iraqi Kurdistan, but not “Iranian Kurdistan”, when he could have done so. Another simpler way of stating what he makes clear is that the eastern part of Kurdistan is in Iran. Which is why this area is sometimes referred to as “Eastern Kurdistan”.

[b] If you believe one of these journals fails WP:RS then you should be specific and say which one so we can evaluate your claim, not make vague reference to some predatory classification.

[c] As for PJAK, that was an example to show that this is not some obscure unheard-of term, but common enough in usage to have an insurgent force using it.

[d] It is clearly false to say that “no academic source” uses this term. I have given 2 examples above, and only 1 of those you say fails RS, meaning there is one right there. Plus, as I show above, the “Iranian Kurdistan” entry for the UNPO (Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization) states “Iranian Kurdistan, also known as eastern Kurdistan.” That in itself is probably enough to warrant its inclusion. However, many more sources can be located.

[e] There are clearly four cardinal direction regions within the full contemporary conception of “Greater Kurdistan”, (even amongst political entities who don’t favor Kurdish independence), thus why someone would argue there is a Northern, Southern, and Western, but not an Eastern Kurdistan, is pedantically absurd. It is not irredentist, nationalist, nor separatist, to acknowledge that millions of Kurds (and the field of Kurdish Studies) perceive this region as being the Eastern part of an cultural/historical entity they view as Kurdistan. Censoring this from the reader leaves them less informed.  Redthoreau -- (talk) 07:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

It was just some food for thought, nothing special. I could prolly find more and get more into this, but not atm. HistoryofIran (talk)

Pahlevun edits

I believe User:Pahlevun is not neutral on this artucle. In my opinion, he should be banned from editing Kurdish articles. Just a look at his recent "militant" edits reveals everything. Lexy iris (talk) 19:49, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk, don't edit war

@Pahlevun, Redthoreau, Konli17, HistoryofIran, Paradise Chronicle, and Lexy iris: There was a request at WP:RFPP that this article be full-protected because of edit warring. I am not inclined to lock the page right now, but I am concerned, because I see all of you reverting each other, and none of you discussing the content here at the talk page - even though you often tell the other person to use the talk page. Take your own advice. Start a discussion about the issues you differ over. Be sure to cite references, or links to previous discussion. Focus on the content, not on what you think is the other editor’s motivation. (Lexy iris, this means you.) If you folks can stop edit warring and actually discuss, it won’t be necessary to lock the page. It’s up to you. -- MelanieN (talk) 22:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

If there is an edit warrior, the editor should be notified of them being prohibited to edit the article in question. This I have seen at the 3rr Noticeboard. Several of the editors mentioned by MelanieN are quite good in improving the article in cooperation.Paradise Chronicle (talk) 23:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I am not accusing any particular person of edit warring. Just the group in general for reverting each other and commenting only in edit summaries instead of here. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:35, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

P.S. I see that a similar issue has been hashed out at WP:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Syrian Kurdistan, at war again, with the result that that page has been locked for a month and several people have been blocked. Maybe that will solve the problems at this article as well. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Kurds "Iranian ethnic group" RFC

Editors are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Kurds#RFC: Iranian ethnic group. Levivich (talk) 00:05, 15 November 2023 (UTC)