Talk:Hook-and-loop fastener

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Velcro

The bur illustrated is not a species of Burdock. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.96.11.192 (talk) 05:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove commonly known as "velcro"Italic text from the article as this is a misuse of the VELCRO (R) Brand Trademark.

Many thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.166.152 (talk) 15:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also please remove use of word 'velcro' from following sentence: However, this reinforced the view among the populace that Velcro was something with very limited utilitarian uses change to read 'hook and loop'

Add 'Companies' after the word Velcro here: The next major use Velcro saw was with skiers,

After the words 'Today the' please insert ' VELCRO(R) Brand Today, the trademark

remove reference to 'Velcro' here and replace with 'Cheaper versions of hook and loop fasteners' This clothing may be damaged when one attempts to remove the Velcro

Change 'Velcro' reference to 'hook and loop' In the fictional universe of Star Trek, Velcro was invented by the Vulcans.

Please change the following:

Velcro gained popularity in many new styles of use when a 1984 interview between David Letterman and the Velcro Corporation’s USA director of industrial sales ended with Letterman jumping off a trampoline onto a wall while wearing a Velcro suit.

Change to read as follows:

The VELCRO(R) Brand gained popularity in many new styles of use when a 1984 interview between David Letterman and the Velcro Corporation's USA Director of industrial sales ended with Letterman jumping off a trampoline on to a wall whilst wearing a suit made out of VELCRO(R) brand hook and loop.

Please change the following:

In 1992, Velcro was mentioned in the sitcom Seinfeld, episode "The Wallet", where Jerry's father, Morty Seinfeld, states that he hates Velcro, due to the distinctive sound it makes when the two sides are being separated: "The Velcro! I can't stand Velcro! That tearing sound!"

Change to read as follows:

In 1992, the VELCRO(R) Brand was mentioned in the sitcom Seinfeld, episode "The Wallet", where Jerry's father, Morty Seinfeld, states that he hates hook and loop, due to the distinctive sound it makes when the two sides are being separated: "The Velcro! I can't stand Velcro! That tearing sound!"

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.148.166.152 (talk) 15:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks#General rules for Wikipedia's policy on use of the ® symbol. Maproom (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Sienfeld stuff is a direct quote! It could be altered to from "hates" to "doesn't like the sound", but you're asking for a fabrication of the source. - X201 (talk) 16:01, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 June 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Hook-and-loop fastener, per the discussion below. It also appears that a multimove request involving Velcro would be likely to succeed, but as noted here, the Velcro page was not notified of this discussion. Since whether or not to move to Velcro remains a sticking point, I'd suggest another discussion before peeling either page from the hooks that hold it to its current title. Dekimasuよ! 14:57, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hook and loop fastener → Hook-and-loop fastener – Consistent hyphenation. nagualdesign 16:41, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support this move 2601:541:4500:1760:C943:E72:6090:5A77 (talk) 21:52, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Correct, but, the title should be at velcro. It is a generic trademark, patent long expired, we all know what velco is and the current and proposed title fails COMMONNAME, fails RECOGNIZABILITY. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:12, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- The Velcro Industries company brand lawyers are in apoplecty. So funny. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

True. Despite the verbose post above by an IP, Velcro is very definitely a genericized trademark. If it were up to me this page would be titled Velcro, per COMMONNAME, and the Velcro article would be titled Velcro Companies, per the lead of that article. If anyone wants to make that a formal suggestion I'd be happy to add my support. On this occasion I just wanted to make what I thought was a minor, non-controversial move but when I tried to do it myself there was a problem. nagualdesign 20:48, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Velcro per WP:COMMONNAME and move Velcro to Velcro Companies. Rreagan007 (talk) 22:51, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Hook-and-loop fastener; Velcro should be used for the brand and company. The Velcro lawyers do have a point; Velcro Industries B.V. has several registered trademarks for the word "Velcro". Band-Aid has its own article even though it's often used generically to refer to bandages.) Trivialist (talk) 01:19, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Trade marks mean little. The velcro trade mark can’t be defended on any velcro product. A big difference is that there are many adhesive bandages sold as such, not as band-aids, but no one sells or talks of hook and loop fasteners except for the Velcro Company brand lawyers, who can’t even take themselves seriously, and the fact is that the current and proposed titles are unrecognisable. —SmokeyJoe (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:39, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  No one sells or talks of hook and loop? What about 3M? Dicklyon (talk) 03:55, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Move to Velcro per common name, etc. per Rreagan007. Precedent: Frisbee. We really don't care that much whether something's a trademark, if the common usage is overwhelmingly a genericized usage of the trademark for the entire class of products.
If not moved to Velcro, then support, per MOS:HYPHEN and WP:CONSISTENCY and, well, basic English punctuation norms (i.e., per WP:Common sense). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support – I think a properly punctuated generic, which is perfectly common in sources, is better than using the trademark term even if that's more well known. Just like we have Facial tissue, rather than Kleenex. Dicklyon (talk) 03:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Excluding the company source, the top references are using the genericised velcro in a prominent introductory manner. They would be doing this for reasons of recognition. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:02, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The company's lawyers are begging you not to]. Dicklyon (talk) 03:50, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's their job. Is this IP one of them, I wonder? Andrewa (talk) 04:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Velcro. It's a classic case of a genericised trademark, it's even given as an example in that article. [1] However, this should not happen until a heads-up is posted at the target, as that article will also need to move. Andrewa (talk) 04:31, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, we would at least need a multi-RM discussion if that's what we wanted to do. But see List of generic and genericized trademarks#List of protected trademarks frequently used as generic terms where it's listed as still protected. Dicklyon (talk) 04:35, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - Can we just please move the page to Hook-and-loop fastener for now, as requested, since it's been over a week and the move would be completely uncontroversial? After that, if people wish to discuss things endlessly they can, and I can just leave you all to it. Life's too short to necessitate multi-RM discussions about an article title, in my opinion (although I very much enjoyed that video, Dicklyon). Cheers. nagualdesign 05:00, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support moving to hyphenated name. CapitalSasha ~ talk 06:24, 21 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post move

In view of some comments above I've raised a question on the Meta [2]... but that page doesn't seem terribly active. Is there a better place? Andrewa (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The village pump, maybe? Or perhaps just re-post what you've posted above at the help desk. I'm sure that somebody there will point you in the right direction, and unlike other venues you won't just get a flat "This is not the right place to ask that sort of thing". I hope that helps. Or better yet, ask SMcCandlish. nagualdesign 18:26, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is not just an en:Wikipedia issue, so the pump is not the eventual place to discuss, that's why I went to the Meta... but in view of the lack of response there, maybe someone at the pump can suggest a better place. I'll try it. Andrewa (talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The non-trademark phrase options are not appropriate. No on uses them. Everyone refers to velcro as the fasting option used to velco things together, usually at a very low end, notably toddler's shoes. If the kid can't tie their shoelaces, get velcro shows again. Velco uses hooks and loops? Interesting, they are so small I don't think many notice. Calling the kids shoes "hook-and-loop fastened" shows would be weird and confusing, I have no expectation that the sales assistant would guess what I am talking about. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Exactly. We are a general encyclopedia, and we're supposed to use English as it is spoken, not as corporate spin doctors want it spoken. Andrewa (talk) 05:11, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I had started a discussion already, still open, at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Trademark mis-use. Dicklyon (talk) 02:56, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, you're way ahead of me. (I only looked at the archives.) Andrewa (talk) 05:13, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Previous discussions

Just to put these somewhere:

Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 65#Using a trademark as a generic product name - on-topic and completely inconclusive
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 68#Varying matters regarding trademarks - discusses trademarks as images rather than as text
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 85#Nobody watching Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (trademarks)? - not relevant as the MOS deals only with style of TMs not whether to use them, but Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trademarks#Spell out advice on avoiding yet-to-be-generic trademark names? is relevant
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 93#Trademarks - on-topic and very interesting, somehow didn't come up in my search but the one below links to it
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 93#Use of non-genericized trademarks
Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 131#What is our approach to trademarks in this difficult case?

I got no hits in other pump sections.

User:Masem/Trademarks and User talk:Masem/Trademarks are also relevant, but the proposal appears to have lapsed for lack of interest. Andrewa (talk) 02:41, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In scrabble, velcro is accepted.[3]. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:57, 9 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]