Talk:The Holocaust in Poland

Soviet or Polish Jews in the areas invaded in 1941

For what it's worth, it seems most books about the Holocaust list these victims as Soviet Jews, for example:

• "Almost 900,000 Soviet Jews were murdered during such operations under German control in 1941" (Gerlach, p.70)
• Longerich 2010: section "MASS EXECUTIONS OF JEWS IN THE OCCUPIED SOVIET ZONES, 1941". There is no mention of "Polish Jews" in this section; the next mention of "Polish Jews" is on page 264 in the next part, "Genesis of the Final Solution on a European Scale", section "Reflections on the Fate of the Polish Jews in the Summer of 1941" (referring to the areas occupied by Germany in 1939)
• Beorn 2018, chapter "War of Annihilation: The Invasion of the Soviet Union"—no mention of "Polish Jews" in this chapter. There are a few mentions of "Poland", most of them comparing the Nazi policies in Poland in 1939 to the Soviet Union in 1941, although it does mention the Lviv pogrom as happening in Poland.
• Dan Stone 2023 The Holocaust: An Unfinished History, same comparison of "Soviet Union" and "Poland" (“Yet if what had happened since September 1939 in Poland was shocking, what would take place in the Soviet Union after June 1941 was of another order still”), no mention of "Polish Jews" in the chapter "War of Annihilation" dealing with the invasion of the Soviet Union
• Cesarani 2016, Final Solution: does mention Polish Jews three times in the "Barbarossa" chapter, but all of them refer to Jews living west of the areas invaded in 1941

I think these sources substantiate my concern that Reichskommissariat Ostland and other areas east of Bialystok and the General Governorate are most often not considered part of the Holocaust in Poland. (t · c) buidhe 23:35, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Then we can mention this in the text. It is consistent with World War II casualties of Poland claim that "Contemporary Russian sources include Poland's losses in the Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union with Soviet war dead" - and I guess Soviet propaganda seeped through to many Western sources over the years. Just like many estimates conflate Soviet with Russia, ommitting Ukraine (see World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union#Estimates_of_losses_by_individual_Republics for context). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Great, so all five of these historians are all infected by Soviet propaganda? Any evidence to back up this claim?

I realize the question of nationality is not straightforward when it comes to areas that were part of Russia prior to World War I, part of Poland for about 20 years (although most of these areas had a majority non-Polish-speaking population), then part of the Soviet Union for about 2 years. That's why I think we should follow how most reliable sources on the topic divide it up. (t · c) buidhe 07:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

PS. I'll ping User:Dreamcatcher25 who knows much more than me about what Polish historiography may say about this. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:50, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I think these sources substantiate my concern that Reichskommissariat Ostland and other areas east of Bialystok and the General Governorate are most often not considered part of the Holocaust in Poland, and you are judging on what, because none of your sources actually confirm that. Obviously works that describe the entire history of the Holocaust may, for the sake of argument, use this and that choice of terms, which, for example, will speak of Jews killed in Polish lands occupied by the Soviets as "Soviet Jews". But this is irrelevant to us. Especially for this article. Following your logic, we can't talk about Holocaust in Lithuania because your sources will say it is part of Holocaust in the Soviet Union. Do you understand what your mistake is? You just cannot expect a clear distinction. The Holocaust in Poland will cover the whole of pre-war Poland, and, for example, the Holocaust in Ukraine will cover the area of Ukraine within modern borders; and the fact that they will overlap geographically is no problem.

Also you are ignoring sources that are more precise. For example: Snyder, Bloodlands, 2015, p. 275: Of the million or so Soviet Jews killed in the Holocaust, fewer than one percent died at Auschwitz. Of the three million or so Polish Jews killed in the Holocaust, only about seven percent perished at Auschwitz. Nearly 1.3 million Polish Jews were killed, usually shot, east of the Molotov-Ribbentrop line. Another 1.3 million or so Polish Jews were gassed in Operation Reinhard in the General Government. Or Yad Vashem: In June 1941, after the German invasion of the Soviet Union, the Germans began to imprison the rest of Polish Jewry in ghettos and to deport them to concentration and slave labor camps.

Or look at the numbers given by USHMM: Poland. Jewish population of Poland in 1937: 3,350,000. Deaths: 2,770,000–3,000,000 and Soviet Union. Jewish population of the Soviet Union in 1939: 3,028,538. Deaths: approximately 1,340,000. There is a clear distinction here and the inclusion of Jews murdered in Soviet-occupied territories after 1939 among the victims of the Holocaust in Poland. As I said, without them, the number of Holocaust victims in Poland would have been smaller by one third. Marcelus (talk) 08:29, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Good point about Lithuania (also, Holocaust in Ukraine, Belarus, Estonia, Latvia...). Some sources simplify things, others go into detail. This article is one where we go into detail in the context of Polish citizens and Polish territories, even if one or the other or both was not universally recognized back then or later. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:49, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Exactly, besides, we should check the sources which have the same scope as the article, so "Holocaust in Poland", not Holocaust in general. Marcelus (talk) 14:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

"Polish citizens" and "Polish territories" according to what standard? They became (mostly) Soviet citizens and Soviet territories in 1939 and for the most part haven't been Polish since then. Besides, by your own proposed standard, it is not as if Bloodlands is about the Holocaust in Poland either. Maybe they are covered in sources whose stated topic is the Holocaust in Poland, but I'd like to see it. (t · c) buidhe 17:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

"Polish citizens" and "Polish territories" according to what standard?. What kind of argument is it? By the same standards by which the territories occupied and their inhabitants by Germany were "Polish." Or do you deny that too? Perhaps you have sources in which Poland did not exist at all?

Maybe they are covered in sources whose stated topic is the Holocaust in Poland, but I'd like to see it, for what? So you can remove them also? Marcelus (talk) 18:18, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Maybe try wp:agf? (t · c) buidhe 19:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

As I said, I was assuming your good faith until I explained you the history of the Holocaust in Poland, in other words your only excuse was an ignorance. Marcelus (talk) 19:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

What standard, hmmm. Would you like to rename 1941 pogroms in eastern Poland to 1941 pogroms in eastern Germany or 1941 pogroms in western USSR? Also, does it mean that in Jedawbne, Soviet/German Jews were killed by Soviets or just Germans? Do elaborate on your logic, I find it... fascinating. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:31, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@Buidhe, Piotrus, and Marcelus: In Timothy Snyder's Bloodlands (Polish edition, 2011, p. 442) I found such interesting assesment (my rough translation from Polish):

In historical works on the Holocaust, individuals residing east of the Ribbentrop-Molotov line are often labeled as Soviet Jews. However, this description is imprecise as in 1939, at the outbreak of war, the majority of Jews who were later murdered in that region, held Polish citizenship rather than Soviet citizenship. Referring to them as Soviet Jews also reinforces a narrative that marginalizes or overlooks the Soviet invasion and occupation of its western neighbors. If these individuals were considered Soviet Jews, it would imply that their homeland was the Soviet Union and that the war began with the German invasion of the USSR [in 1941 - D25]. In reality, however, the war commenced with the German-Soviet alliance [in 1939 - D25] resulted in the destruction of Poland, placing the Jews in question within the borders of the enlarged USSR.

Hope it helps to some extent.Dreamcatcher25 (talk) 19:10, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I think that settles it. Marcelus (talk) 19:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, 2003, p. 301: In Kraków the Befehlshaber der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD (BdS) of the Generalgouvernement, SS-Oberführer Schöngarth, organized three small Kommandos. In the middle of July these Kommandos moved into the eastern Polish areas and, with headquarters in Lvov, Brest-Litovsk, and Białystok, respectively, killed tens of thousands of Jews. Marcelus (talk) 08:35, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Archives missing from box

The box listing Archives for this page is missing the links to Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2023/February, Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2023/March, Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2023/May, and Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2023/June. I can't see how to fix it, so will ask around to see if anyone else does. DuncanHill (talk) 20:46, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

It has now been fixed. DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

@DuncanHill, tip for the future: please avoid discussion forks. After starting a discussion here, it would have been better to link to here ([[Talk:The Holocaust in Poland#Archives missing from box]]) at the village pump discussion or the other way around. —⁠andrybak (talk) 23:07, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Failed verification

[1] While it's possible that we are looking at different versions of the book, the text is not on the cited pages of the 2003 edition. Oddly, the one I'm looking at does discuss Poland on these pages, but still does not support the text, which makes me wonder what is going on. Could you provide quotes from the source? I am not entirely sure Weimar Republic policies are relevant to discuss, but that is secondary to the verifiability issue. (t · c) buidhe 17:54, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Various laws of interwar Germany aimed at Polish Jews are discussed by Hilberg on pages 188-189. It's weird that you can't find them. Marcelus (talk) 20:20, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Again, can you provide a quote from the source that supports the content? (t · c) buidhe 01:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

A second factor was the German perception of Polish Jewry. These Jews were at the bottom for some time. They had been singled out and targeted repeatedly before the war. In recent memory were the thousands who had been transported from Germany to the Polish frontier in 1938. Fifteen years earlier individual Jews holding Polish citizenship had been deported as undesirable by the Bavarian Government. Still earlier, on April 23, 1918, Polish Jews who were unskilled laborers and who had sought entry into Germany’s eastern provinces were banned by the Prussian Interior Ministry on the ground that they were not interested in work but immigration, and that they were morally unreliable as well as physically unclean, carrying typhus to Germany. Armed with such conceptualizations, the Nazi regime in Poland was less considerate and more drastic than in Germany itself. Typically, no concessions were made to Polish Jews who had been veterans of the German or Austro-Hungarian armies in the First World War. There was little hesitation to produce housing densities for Polish Jews that were far higher than those for German Jews, or to lower food rations for Jews in Poland below those allowed for Jews in Germany. Moreover, in Poland, unlike Germany, there was no need for precautions whenever anti-Jewish measures could have painful repercussions for the non-Jewish population. There was no imperative to be mindful of the welfare of Poles. Here you go. Marcelus (talk) 10:49, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for posting this. Nevertheless, it does not fix all of my concern about verification. Neither Hilberg nor the other source cited say that Polish Jews generally had a lower status than other eastern Jews; according to the quote, it was only true "for some time" (when?), a qualification missing in your text. By 1941 it was clearly Soviet Jews from east of the 1939 border who were considered "worst". (t · c) buidhe 01:40, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

A second factor was the German perception of Polish Jewry. These Jews were at the bottom for some time. Marcelus (talk) 07:53, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Risk of denunciation

The article says: "Many Jews tried to escape, but surviving in hiding was very difficult due to factors such as the lack of money to pay helpers and the risk of denunciation." Is that really how it's called - denunciation? I'm having trouble thinking of an alternate but it just doesn't seem right to be using this without qualification. Ben Azura (talk) 20:33, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Attribution

Text copied from Marceli Godlewski to the Holocaust in Poland. See former article's history for a list of contributors. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 16:04, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

There is a repetition in the text of "Resettlement plans". "At this point, efforts to concentrate Jews in a compact territory were abandoned". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.242.10.158 (talk) 01:33, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Shouldn't Majdanek Be Included As Well?

At least 78,000 Jews were killed there.

Source? Slatersteven (talk) 09:38, 15 September 2024 (UTC)