Talk:The Holocaust in Poland/Archives/2023/March

Grabowski, again

@Volunteer Marek: You've removed a detail that's been in the article since at least 2019,[1][2] which was discussed ad nauseum here[3][4][5] and elsewhere.[6][7][8][9][10][11] What's more, you have a WP:COI with the source, as explained to you twice.[12][13][14] Now you're telling me to "stop edit warring and try to get consensus"?[15] François Robere (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, as explained more than “thrice”, I do not have any “COI” (sic) here (or in any other editing on Wikipedia). Your false but persistent pretending otherwise is bordering on personal attacks. And the fact it’s been there “since 2019” is irrelevant. Apparently there was some Wikipedia article that had erroneous information added back in 2004 or something and that info stayed in that article for many many years. Yet, it was later removed. Ironically, the previous discussions you mention all point to the fact that there was no consensus for this text even back then (and some of the other discussions you link to aren’t even about this topic - please don’t do “diff padding”) Volunteer Marek 14:26, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I assume all this hubbub is about "or turned in by Poles" part? If we need to clarify this, then the correct way would be to change "killed or turned in by Poles" into "perished at the hands of Germans and local collaborators". The old phrasing was obviously misleading, as it a, ridiculously implied that Germans didn't do anything, and b, it simplifies the multiethnic state of the SPR into 'Poles' (which was 70% Polish, 10% Jewish, 10% Ukrainian, and 10% other...). This kind of research often risks oversimplifying things when we forget that there were areas of 'Poland' where ethnic Poles were actually a minority (ex. in the east, see commons:Category:Polish census of 1931). For example, look at pl:Powiat rówieński (en:Rovensky Uyezd, that interwiki may need some fixing). Here you have a "Polish" county with a population 60% Ukrainian, 15% Jewish and 10% Polish. So, errr, run by me again what was the ethnicity of the average collaborators there? Eh. Instaed of Grabowski, I'd recommend reading Bloodlands by Snyder. Now that's a serious scholarship that doesn't see the world as a simple black vs white dychtomy. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 15:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Hence this correction, which takes directly from the book without doing WP:OR.

It almost reads as if you're trying to say that Grabowski, a world-renowned scholar with whom you've had a public off-wiki disagreement, is not a "serious scholar". François Robere (talk) 19:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I'd appreciate if you'd avoid discussing my person, per NPA, Wikipedia:Casting aspersions and like. Am I commenting on your attitude towards Grabowski, or am I trying to put words in your mouth? No? Then please extend the same courtesy to me. As I prefer to maintain a NPOV stance, I am a bit more reserved when it comes to praising scholars using WP:PEACOCK terms. He has his fans, and he has his detractors, and who is right we will know in few decades or centuries, were tempers die down and new generation of scholars is able to coolly review the topics which modern historiography has difficulties with (and I am sadly not holding my breath for us to see this anytime soon, sadly).

As for your edit, I'll note that Grabowski himself, as noted in the quote, talks about "Poles (or, for that matter, Ukrainians, Belorussians, or Balts)". As I pointed out above, to omit the parenthesis is misleading, either retain it or use some other neutral term (like I suggested above, " local collaborators", for example). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:14, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with WP:NPA and everything to do with WP:COI. As an academic you had previously published a rebuttal of Grabowski on Gazeta Wyborcza. As a wikipedean you're now implying that he's narrow-minded and unserious. You can't do both. François Robere (talk) 08:11, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

HAvew thy stated this here, or is this based on your own research?Slatersteven (talk) 09:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

It's not exactly a secret. He published it under his real name, and there's even a link at Talk:Warsaw concentration camp. François Robere (talk) 10:03, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

FR, I tried to mediate in the dispute you had with VM and offer a compromise that I thought both parties may find of use, and what I am seeing here is some weird WP:BATTLEGROUND, with you refusing to discuss the diffs and instead making BLPs violations against Grabowski ("he's narrow-minded and unserious") and trying to put them in my own mouth (which is a violation of NPA/CIV/etc.). For the last time, please stop those PAs (in particular, please stop offering your novel "rewording" of what you think I said or meant), now topped with BLP violations (which, I'd like to remind you, applies to talk spaces too). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 10:19, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

If you have issues with user conduct either take it to their talk page or to wp:ani, do not discuss it here.Slatersteven (talk) 10:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Move

Article should be moved to The Holocaust in German occupied-Poland and put more stress on Nazi occupation. Poland wasn’t existing during Holocaust, that was only ex-Poland terrain under Nazi German occupation, having nothing to do with Polish country. Nowadays title is Anti-Polish sentiment, suggests that this tragedy of Jews- Polish citizens before Germany aggression was involved with country of Poland, sounds the same as "Polish death camp" controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaziela (talk • contribs) 22:27, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

That notion is ridiculous. It also whitewashes widespread anti-semitism in Poland at the time and a general (with brave exceptions) malaise among the Poles about the fate of the Jews. 50.111.34.214 (talk) 21:16, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

While I disagree with the statement that the current title is in any promoting anti-Polish sentiment, I don't see how a clarification would mean "whitewashing widespread anti-semitism in Poland at that time", nor does the rest of your statement have to do with the subject at hand. As for the subject, there is an inconsistency in naming these articles, on one hand you have an article simply called, like this one is, The Holocaust in Norway, but on the other hand you have The Holocaust in German-occupied Serbia. Either way I don't think I have any strong opinions on the matter, the article makes it clear that Poland was occupied. Rousillon (talk) 04:02, 13 June 2022 (UTC)