Talk:History of the kilt

Robert Chew ("The Scotsman")

Military use: Robert Chew acquired the nickname "The Scotsman" for consistently wearing a kilt in the months he oversaw Norway's return to civil rule after WW2. Bergen library — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:E9F:FB01:40CE:CA07:FFD9:EB55 (talk) 09:11, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

modifications

I made some minor edits. I removed a reference in the Great Kilt section since it claimed the term derived from the Norse word 'kjalta' which contradicts what was actually *cited* at the top of the article that it derives from the world 'kilting.' Furthermore, just because it derives from that word does not give "strong indication" that the Norse people observed Picts wearing kilts, by any means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.39.212.101 (talk) 05:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

North American Revival of the Kilt

It was President Woodrow Wilson, the son of a Scots-Irish Presbyterian minister, said: "Every line in America's history is a line coloured by Scottish blood." In keeping with his sentiments, many recognize North American (U.S. and Canadian) history and the Colonial activity of Britain in the 1600's were directly influenced by a chain of events that transpired in Britain, predating the English Civil War (1642-1651). The obvious diasporal link between Britain and it's many Colonies gives the citizen's of Canada, the U.S., Australia, New Zealand and other previous Colonies a lirect link to a common history and heritage, regardless of their particular race or bloodline. The Tartan Day [1] Resolution[2], passed by the U.S. Congress in 1998 outlines the facts and details relating to U.S. history being intertwined with Scot's history. Many Americans without direct Scottish ancestry have taken to wearing non-tartan casual kilts as well as traditional kilts sportng appropriate district tartans; The

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American National Tartan [3], the Canadian National Tartan [4] or a state[5]/provincial[6], club or military service tartan (U.S. Military Tartans [7]). Many see this as a way of celebrating our common Scots heritage.

Comment

The above was taken from the kilt article. It may properly belong under History of the kilt. However, it needs to be sourced and it seems more about general Scottish/Celtic cultural growth and not so specifically about the kilt. Also, about the section header: if there has been a revival, doesn't that mean there was a previous 'vival'? When was the vival?

I do suspect there has been some growth of interest in the kilt in recent years, but shouldn't this be supportable with industry statistics on sales, eh? JFPerry 13:49, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Hi!

I just LO-O-OVE this ARTICLE! Bye, y'all! Wumbo 3:29, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Thomas Rawlinson

Excuse me, but could some material from the Thomas Rawlinson article be incorporated into this article, please! It would really help me out. Thanks! Skrooball 19:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The accuracy of that article has been disputed (by two different people). Both of the references cited in the external links section of the Rawlinson article flat out contradict the thesis of the entire Rawlinson article. See the talk page of that article. JFPerry 20:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The above comments are now redundant. The current Thomas Rawlinson article includes the facts of the Ivan Baillie letter ascribing the invention of the modern kilt to Rawlinson, together with the assertion that the lower half of the belted plaid was worn on its own before Rawlinson's kilt, both with citations to their sources. The fact that Rawlinson's kilt had sewn-in pleats like a modern kilt, while the abbreviated belted plaid which may have been worn earlier did not, is also made. Robocon1 (talk) 18:47, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

See also Talk:Kilt#Thomas Rawlinson for further discussion and source-digging.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:45, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

comment

The article says "Scottish troops last wore kilts in combat during WWI. In particular, the ferocious tactics of the Royal Highland Regiment led to their acquiring the nickname "Ladies from Hell" from the German troops that faced them in the trenches." but there are photographic sources such as photo (which shows Scottish POWs in 1940) wearing kilts at least into early WWII.

There are also photo's of Scottinh officers wearing kilts during Market-Garden, in 1944. These may hve been individual choices rather than unit orders, but they were kilyts worn in combat. Jahb (talk) 20:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

comment

What evidence is there that the Kilt or the Plaid was an "ancient" item of clothing? I mean actual historical evidence? As far as I'm aware the plaid is actually a relatively modern invention of the 16th century.

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this article does not in anyway mention the irish. kilts are just as irish as they are scottish, and frankly i am sick of the implication that its a wholly scottish garment. furthormore the article doesn't go nearly far enough back. it makes insufficient mention of any related garments before the great kilt. trews and so called saffron shirts are to my understanding both possible predecessors. also just to sound as biased as humanly possible, most sources i've run across point to an irish origin for the kilt.

Agreed. I edited the article and included reliable evidence that the kilt dates at least as far back as 800AD, just before the formation of the Kingdom of Scotland. An OLD GAELIC/IRISH manuscript once housed in a monastery in Nuremberg, Germany contains the image of a Gaelic chieftain in Gaelic dress, (the kilt). This particular chieftain was alive in 800AD. The royal seals of Kings Alasdair I, King David I(Dàibhidh) and Calum IV in the 10th century, depict them all in gaelic dress. (am féileadh mór, the great kilt). However, someone with a limited knowledge of Scottish history decided to delete this. His/her ID is Celtus.--Steafan31 (talk) 14:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

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I'm afraid I must strongly disagree with the idea that kilts are as Irish as they are scottish. The simple fact is that they are not and never have been. Here in Ireland where I live the kilt is seen as a Scottish item of clothing. It is only worn by pipe bands and more recently at weddings.

Kilts are Gaelic, and hence they are as Irish, as they are Scottish. The wearing of the kilt by the general population possibly died out in Ireland earlier, but in ancient history, there is no doubt that the Irish also wore garments related to the modern-day kilt. In Scots Gaelic, the modern kilt is known as the "féileadh beag" and the older one as the "féileadh mór" so why don't you look that up in a good Irish language dictionary.--Steafan31 (talk) 14:03, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century, and even then it was limited to mainly boys Irish Dancing costumes and some Catholic Private schools, as a symbol of pan-celticsm. It has been all but abandoned in Irish Dancing, thanks largely to Riverdance.

The historical garment of Ireland is the Léine which was basically a long shirt or tunic sometimes worn with a belt around the waste. It in no way resembled or is connected to the kilt we know today.

The notion that kilts are Irish seems to originate with the Irish-Americans keen to have an outward symbol of their celtic origins. Nothing wrong with this and a good choice, unfortunately it seems to have sprung a need for Irish-Americans to concoct a mythology around it's "ancient origins" in order to justify it's wearing. Where as here in Ireland we know it's not really anything to do with us but wear it mostly for fun at weddings and even at that very rarely.

I attended a wedding in Mayo two years ago at Ballintubber Abbey to be precise. The bride was a born and bred Mayo woman the groom an Irish-American from upstate New York. On the bride's (i.e Irish) side of the church there was not one kilt amongst the guests or family, on the American side all the men wore kilts !. At the reception afterwards the American's were more than surprised to find out that no one wore kilts in Ireland, apart from pipers.

The kilt as we know it today originated in the Scottish Highlands of the 16th century, was modified to what we know now in the 18th Century, took off as the national dress of Scotland after 1822 and George IV's visit and got the British establishment seal of approval in Victorian Britain.

In the islands of Britain and Ireland it has been adopted in the late 20th century amongst other celtic nations as a pan celtic symbol, but everyone is aware that it's history is firmly rooted in the Scottish Highlands.

You'll have to get over it my friend can't change reality to suit romantic notions.

EddieLu 15:58, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the timing on this. Hanging on a wall in an Irish pub near where I live (Santa Cruz, California, but owned by Irish immigrants) there's a photo labeled as that of an Irish clan chieftain, the O'Houlighan, taken early in the 20th century. He's wearing a kilt. It may have been a symbol of pan-Celticism as you say, but if so it was adopted as such rather earlier than you're saying.

FWIW, I've never seen Irish dancers wearing kilts at any time. TCC (talk) (contribs) 20:39, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

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Hi a careful reading of my comment and you would have noticed my line "There is no historical evidence of the kilt being worn in Ireland before the end of the 19th century". So the photo in your local pub fits in perfectly with my point. There was a bit of a pan celtic revival at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries here in Ireland. The saffron kilt was adopted as a symbol by some as a resistance to British rule, it wasn't widespread but was taken up by some private Catholic Schools, I believe the one that Padraig Pearse taught is one such, was used as a boys Irish Dancing costume, and did occasionally appear at political meetings. Once things got serious after 1916 the Irish had other things to worry about. The only notable Irish lord or chieftain that I have heard of wearing a kilt in the early 20thc was Sir Shane Leslie 3rd Baronet of Castle Leslie in Monaghan, at the time he was considered quite eccentric (indeed his son Jack Leslie who is 90 is famous for being an ardent clubber as in House/Acid music) Sir Shane was a fervent Nationalist and stood as a Nationalist candidate in 1910, his kilt wearing was the outward sign of his celtic nationalism. Anyway next time your in the pub have a pint for me and I'll do the same for you in Ireland, cheers. EddieLu 15:36, 18 January 2007 (UTC) check out the following [8] EddieLu 11:30, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

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Two book reviews which you may wish to note of Trevor Ropers book http://www.nysun.com/arts/hugh-trevor-ropers-the-invention-of-scotland/82417/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2008/06/08/botre108.xml rumjal 09:02, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

recent edits regarding kings in kilts

I just reverted a couple edits by Steafan31 ([9], [10], [11]). The edits were pretty extreme and the source is suspect being only a Victorian newspaper clipping. Stating there are old Gaelic manuscripts with images of kilts dating from the 800s; Scottish kings wearing kilts in 1000s and 1100s; also the bit about James V in 1538 is garbled - the account isn't regarding a kilt but of a velvet jacket and tartan hose.--Celtus (talk) 06:37, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

First of all, do you understand Scottish Gaelic? I think it's quite clear that you don't, as the article may be old, but the evidence cited in it, is incontrovertible. For those who don't know, he removed a link to the September 8, 1894 edition of Mac-Talla, a Canadian Scots Gaelic newspaper that is a very good source for Scottish history as well as for many other cultural matters. THe royal seals of these kings show them wearing the kilt- Alasdair I, David I and Calum IV. The accounts of the chief treasurer to James V for the year 1538 reveal money spent on what is now known in English as Highland dress, but is referred to here as "deise Ghàidhealach" which means "Gaelic dress". This includes a kilt (féileadh beag), not just, as Celtus claims, a tartan hose and velvet jacket. What is often translated as Highland, is actually Gaelic, and Gaelic culture covered more than just the Highland geographical area of Scotland in those days. We all know that the last king of Scotland to speak Gaelic as a mother tongue was James IV. This is far greater and much more precise evidence than any of the second/third/fourth-hand evidence cited from more recent anglo-centric publications and authors that is being used to prop up the untrue claims that the kilt originates from the 16th century. If only anglo historians' are used as sources for information about centuries' old Scottish history and culture; without ability to read Scottish Gaelic, then the chances are that misconceptions and misunderstandings will regularly occur, regarding Scotland's Gaelic past, and present. Other evidence includes archeological finds, such as tombstones, one found in Dull, Perthshire with the image of men in kilts carved into it, dating from well before the 16th century. The English Wikipedia, relating to Scotland and in particular historical and cultural aspects, is very anglo-centric, and hence is full of snide prejudice and blatant twisting of the facts about Scottish history and culture. It needs to be completely revised. --Steafan31 (talk) 13:28, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

It's just that the clipping is seriously outdated and the claims are extreme. Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. IMO, claiming that the royal seals of Alexander I, David I and Malcolm IV show images of Scots kings wearing kilts is exceptional. A lone century-old newspaper clipping by doesn't seem all that reliable to me. Its seems more likely few people took that article seriously back in 1894 and even fewer today. I'm not sure that something written in Gaelic is automatically more reliable than something written in English. The relevant quotation regarding James V and the 1538 'Accounts of the Lord High Treasurer of Scotland' wasn't even written in Gaelic. You can see it for yourself on GoogleBooks; starting the very bottom of page 226 and top of page 227. I doubt there is a century old Anglo conspiracy covering up archaeological finds in Dull, rock-art in Perthshire, and other things concerning the history of kilts.--Celtus (talk) 05:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

So what you're saying is, that because you don't believe it and it's not written in English, it can't be true? I'm sure the National Museum of Scotland in Edinburgh will have the seals if they exist. Also, I'm not talking about a conspiracy, but simple ignorance. The oldest documents in Scotland were written in gaelic or latin, before English started to make headway. But anyway, your source is very good for James V; but as I said highland dress included a kilt, so it's safe to say that the kilt would have been present. My source is not a "clipping" as you put it, but a full page and a bit article of an 8 page newspaper. If you want to see the other pages of the newspaper, simply change the number "06" at the end of the URL to 07 and so on.

I wasn't sure about any of this, so I looked it up.

Here's the seal of Alexander I-- shows him wearing a perfectly ordinary tunic, and the reverse shows him in armour. Wikipedia article including steel-engraved images of the same seal.

Here's David I, again, wearing an unremarkable tunic and on the reverse, in armour. Also, steel engravings at Wikimedia Commons

And this one's Malcolm IV (not a great image, I'm afraid), and on the reverse, again, in armour. I'm afraid I couldn't find a better image of this one.

So, no kilts on those guys. Hope that clears up the issue. Beastiepaws (talk) 00:34, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the reliability of this newspaper, it received contributions from historians and other interested parties who would write for it, sending in articles from Scotland and of course Gaelic Canada. The [newspaper] itself ran from 1892 to 1904.--Steafan31 (talk) 12:46, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

If current historians and textile scholars don't take the mediaeval kilt thing seriously, then this wikipedia article shouldn't either. The newspaper article by itself doesn't prove that anyone took it seriously even back then. Do you know who actually wrote this newspaper article? "Cabar Feidh"? Who says that anyone thought he or she was reliable back then or today? He or she misrepresented the 1538 thing, that's not a good sign either. Look at the Alexander I article. It has his seal right there. Hardly anyone will tell you that is a kilt, or that it is proof that mediaeval kings wore kilts. You might be able to hunt down pictures of the other king's seals on the web. IMO it is pretty unlikely that current scholars are ignorant of Gaelic, or prejudiced against Gaelic sources.--Celtus (talk) 05:59, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

English invented the kilt

No where does this article mention that the English invented the kilt; see Hugh Trevor Roper et al. This is a serious failing. 195.217.128.36 (talk) 07:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

erm, maybe if you actually tried reading the article you would understand that the English did not 'invent' the kilt. In reality, the modern kilt evolved from the belted plaid, now called the 'great kilt'. The Trevor-Roper material is explored in the article.

Why do some people feel content to post comments in the discussion page without even reading the article in question? Beats me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.156.207 (talk) 12:37, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually the Wikipedia article "The Kilt" mentions that an English Quaker invemted the small kilt [ Hobsbawm & Ranger 1983, pp. 22–23.]. Acorn897 (talk) 22:59, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

The wikipedia Kilt article now says that Rawlinson invented a version of the philibeg with sewn-in pleats, which is what the section from The Invention of Tradition used as a source there says (p.22-23), and that there is evidence that the philibeg with unsewn pleats was worn from the 1690s, cited to the source quoted in this article. This article's statement that the first philibeg with sewn-in pleats is from 1792 needs correcting - that would be the oldest existing philibeg with sewn-in pleats.Robocon1 (talk) 15:32, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

This is the relevant section from the source used in this article, from the website of the Scottish Tartans Museum, North Carolina: One story commonly repeated is that an Englishman named Thomas Rawlinson opened an iron-smelting factory in the Highlands around the year 1730. His workers all dressed in the belted plaids, which proved too hot and cumbersome for close work in his factory. He solved the problem by cutting the garment in half. The lower part could now be worn separately and the upper part discarded when coming indoors. This is considered proof that an Englishman invented the Scottish national dress. The problem with this story is that we know of numerous illustrations of Highlanders wearing the only the bottom part of the belted plaid that date long before Rawlinson ever set foot in Scotland.(...) I will not go into detailed evidence of the wearing of the phillabeg here, but I will say that there is some suggestion of its use in the late 17th century, and it was definitely being worn in the early 18th century. It most likely came about as a natural evolution of the belted plaid and Rawlinson probably observed its and quickly deduced its usefulness in his situation and introduced it among his workers. ENDS

1. The account in Hobsbawm & Ranger's The Invention of Tradition is the first documented evidence of something like a modern kilt, published in the Edinburgh Magazine, 1785. It is stated that it was not challenged at the time. The Invention of Tradition is a properly referenced academic textbook published by the Cambridge University Press.

2. Hobsbawm & Ranger states that Rawlinson's philibeg "was achieved by separating the the skirt from the plaid and and converting it into a distinct garment, with pleats already sewn." But the source used for this article, the website of a tartan museum in the USA, claims that the first 'tailored' kilt is from 1792 and is an exhibit in their museum. It could therefore be said to be in their interest to rubbish competing evidence. There are no references to the sources of the information for the tartan museum's text, or for their statement that the philibeg was worn in the late 17th century. "Evidence" for this often seems to consist of illustrations of the period, the details of which, being woodcuts, are open to differing interpretations. Hobsbawm & Ranger also states that the first painting of a recognizable modern kilt, not a belted plaid, is of the son of the clan chief who was a friend of Rawlinson's.

Can anyone supply a properly referenced academic source which provides documentary evidence as good as Hobsbawm & Ranger for the philibeg with sewn pleats, or the philibeg itself, being in use before Rawlinson's version? Robocon1 (talk) 19:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC) Apologies, I now notice that the oldest tailored kilt is with the Scottish Tartans Authority, not the Scottish Tartans Museum. The problem remains that the bulk of this article is taken from the website of a tartan museum in North Carolina rather than a recognised source such as a textbook or encyclopedia.Robocon1 (talk) 13:56, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

No-one having come up with any source other than the Scottish Tartans Museum website, I have just edited The small kilt or walking kilt section to reflect the fact that Baillie's account is not 'a story' that has been disproved (see Thomas Rawlinson, Talk: Accuracy Redux) and that it's the first documented evidence of a tailored kilt with sewn in pleats like a modern kilt. I've left in the Scottish Tartan Museum reference to the bottom half of the belted plaid being worn in the 1690s pending some definitive evidence being citedRobocon1 (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Norse 'kilts'

Vikings did not wear kilts, they wore long tunics or shirts over trews: http://sciencenordic.com/what-vikings-really-looked http://www.danishnet.com/info.php/vikings/clothing-137.html This was a style of dress for men common across medieval Europe. A kilt is a pleated garment which is not worn over trousers. The fact that a Scottish word may be derived from an Old Norse word proves nothing. Many words of Norse derivation occur in Scottish Gaelic, northern English dialects and modern English, because of Viking settlement. For instance, the modern Lowland Scots dialect word for a cushion is the same as the word in modern Swedish: kudde. That doesn't mean that Swedish Vikings invented the cushion and took it to Scotland. Robocon1 (talk) 21:39, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

"Aix" Disambiguation

This page was identified as including a disambiguation error based on the term "AIX".

In order to resolve this problem I have removed the wikilink from the term as I am unable to determine, from the context, which exact place it is referring to. If you wish to restore the link please ensure that the term and the link are fully resolved so that no further disambiguation occurs. Perry Middlemiss (talk) 07:16, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Folklore of Roman inspiration

Folklore sometimes has it that the plated-leather skirts of some types of Roman armour (e.g. the lorica segmentata and lorica squamata), worn by Romano-British soldiers at Hadrian's Wall and Antonine Wall, inspired Pictish immitation in the form of cloth kilts, while in reality there is no sure evidence of kilt-wearing in Scotland until the late 16th century. I know I read about this in a published source some time in the 1980s, though at this remove I have no idea what that book was. I imagine it has been covered in more than one source by now, and it is probably worth mentioning and effectively dismissing in our article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:09, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Thomas Rawlinson disputation

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:Kilt#Thomas Rawlinson for a discussion that should be centralized at one place, as it affects three articles.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Which magazine was it?

Our current text says: "A letter written by Ivan Baillie in 1768 and published in the Edinburgh Magazine in March 1785 states that the garment people would recognize as a kilt today was invented in the 1720s by Thomas Rawlinson, a Quaker from Lancashire." But other sources including Thomas Innes of Learney and J. G. Mackay put that publication in The Scots Magazine.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:14, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

We seem to have gotten Edinburgh Magazine from Thomas Rawlinson (industrialist) which cites no source for that.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:20, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

John Telfer Dunbar says it was Edinburgh Magazine. David Stewart of Garth says it was The Scots Magazine.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  08:56, 6 June 2023 (UTC)