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Population, etc.

I'm concerned we may have been conflating the ceremonial county and administrative areas in presentation of statistics. This is what I think we should be using for 2011. I'm putting it here in the hope someone could double check it for me.

Statistic City of London Greater London cc Greater London aa
Area 2.90 km2 1,569 km2 1,572 km2
Population 7,400 8,196,700 8,204,100
Density 2,500 /km2 5,223 /km2 5,218 /km2

The 'administrative area' population and area should be larger than that of the 'ceremonial county', by the amount of the City of London. MRSC (talk) 08:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Infobox

The infobox has turned into an awful fudge. Really unclear what it is trying to show. Perhaps a bespoke one is needed or some changes to the {{infobox English county}} to accommodate it. MRSC (talk) 14:58, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes. The infobox needs to allow the 'County' heading to be modified. It doesn't make sense having a fixed value when ceremonial countries across the country have additional administrative areas with various names such as 'unitary authority', 'metropolitan county', etc. In this case, we need to add 'Region' too. As for the rest of the infobox, the syntax is messy, but I think it relatively clearly distinguishes the region, administrative area, and ceremonial county. Do you have any other concerns other then the 'County' heading? Rob (talk | contribs) 15:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC)

It is very difficult to track down where the Population figure for the ceremonial county is held. It took a while, but I located it in Template:English_cerem_counties, which I've just updated to mid-2014 ONS data. Batternut (talk) 12:17, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Hatnote

  1. "For the capital of the United Kingdom, see London"
  2. "For other aspects of the UK capital, see London"

IMO #1 is a poor choice of wording; it suggests the current article is about something unrelated to the capital of the United Kingdom which happens to have the same name. That of course is not true; the article is about one aspect of the UK capital, so wording #2 is more appropriate. the edit which changed #2 to #1 has summary "This an aspect, London is about the capital city as a whole. It discusses Greater London also" which is precisely the reason why #2 is better. jnestorius(talk) 09:16, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I think your wording is somewhat convoluted and confusing. Greater London isn't London, its a region that corresponds to a large extent with London. In my opinion, the hatnote as is, is clear; even if not worded precisely. If the reader is looking for "the capital of the United Kingdom", London is where they should be. Possibly it could say "For the capital of the United Kingdom in general, see London" or similar? Rob984 (talk) 22:46, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
If the reader is looking for "the capital of the United Kingdom", they won't have arrived at Greater London in the first place. Which leads me to ask: can we just remove the London bit from the hatnote altogether? Or at a push add a {{main article}} hatnote. Explaining the difference between "London" and "Greater London" should be accomplished by the opening sentence of the article, which can also wikilink to London. Which would leave this:
This page is about the region and county. For the conurbation, see Greater London Built-up Area. For other uses, see London (disambiguation).
The last link will cater for those wanting to find out about Greater London, Ontario. jnestorius(talk) 23:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I think the reason it is included is because there are [[Greater London|London]] links, as the region is officially called "London". But I agree with your suggestion to replace the hatnote with an explanation in the opening sentence. I'm not sure how to word it since there is no clear definition of London, i.e. we couldn't exactly say "Greater London is a region of England comprising most of London". Possibly referring to its status as the de facto municipal area of London?
Greater London, or London, is a region of England which functions as the municipal area for London. It comprises 33 districts—the 32 London boroughs and the City of London—each with their own local authority. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly.
Rob984 (talk) 08:43, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
How about
London is a region of England based on London and comprising the ceremonial county of Greater London and the separate City of London at its centre. Greater London is subdivided into 32 London boroughs, which together with the City of London constitute 33 districts. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The "Greater London Built-up Area" is the metropolitan area of London as defined by the Office for National Statistics, and includes suburbs in neighbouring regions.
The region covers 1,572 km2 (607 sq mi) and had a population of 8,174,000 at the 2011 census;[1][2] of this the City of London comprised 2.9 km2 (1.1 sq mi) and 7,375 people.[3] The region has the highest GVA per capita in the United Kingdom at £37,232.[4][5]
For ceremonial purposes, Greater London has its own Lord Lieutenant and High Sheriff, who have no jurisdiction over the City of London, which has two Sheriffs and a Commission of Lieutenancy headed by its Lord Mayor.
? jnestorius(talk) 10:05, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
We were only focusing on the opening sentence in regards to one issue. I think you now are trying to address a different issue that doesn't exist. Splitting the ceremonial county into its own paragraph was done for clarity. Your proposal is misleading as the region is often referred to as "Greater London", hence the Greater London Authority spanning the entire region, including the city. In standard usage, Greater London comprises all 33 districts. Usage referring to the ceremonial county is less common and so should always be qualified "ceremonial county of Greater London". Rob984 (talk) 11:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Ceremonial counties are entirely separate from the region-county-district structure in England. The the region of London/Greater London has no county-level administrative areas. It only has districts which are effectively de facto unitary authorities, similar to Metropolitan boroughs. The Greater London Authority is a regional body, not a local authority in the conventional sense. Rob984 (talk) 11:44, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I will accept that "Greater London" more often means the region than the ceremonial county, but I am not convinced that the region is more often called "Greater London" than "London"; have you any source for that? I suggest "Greater London" had more official backing from 1965 to 1994, but not since then. Googlefight: "the london region" site:.gov.uk "the greater london region" site:.gov.uk
  • This article is about both the region and the ceremonial county; relegating the ceremonial county to the second paragraph obscures that fact. "The ceremonial county of Greater London..." is misleading as it suggests that the link "Greater London" points to an article about the ceremonial county. Where an article discusses two things, the name of each thing should be in bold. The lede states that the ceremonial county was created in 1965 but not that the region was created in 1994; I think the point is that the current boundary of both region and county largely dates from 1965 (though not completely).
  • I find "which functions as the municipal area for London" obscure. Admittedly, "based on London" is vague; given that the term "London" is imprecise, that may not be a flaw. I am sure there are better wordings than either, if we could find one. Next iteration:
London, often called Greater London, is a region of England based on London. It comprises 33 districts: the 32 London boroughs and the City of London. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The ceremonial county of Greater London covers the 32 London boroughs but excludes the City of London.[6][7][8]
jnestorius(talk) 11:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree the link is misleading. And I suppose bolding the second use of "Greater London" might be helpful. I prefer two paragraphs, but I not too bothered about this so okay.
Why "often called Greater London"? Like you say, it was officially called "Greater London" and still is often. The legislation that embodies the structure of local governance in the region refers to "Greater London". It's not less correct, just a different official name. "often called" implies otherwise. Again I am not sure what issue you are trying to correct here. It is not implied that it is more often called "Greater London" than "London". I don't mind which order they, if you would prefer "London, or Greater London".
I would prefer to refer to is as a municipal area (which is what it is), but I accept it could really do with a source. "based on London" is okay.
Rob984 (talk) 17:53, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
Well, the Regions of England article has "London region (also known as Greater London)". My impression is that, when discussed as a region-like-other-regions, it is called "London"; when discussed as a sui-generis-administrative-area, it may be called by either name; if the sentence foregrounds the region aspect, it should give priority to the region name. But overall I think we have established enough agreement; I'm happy not to bother debating every punctilio. jnestorius(talk) 09:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Just for your information: I explained in a thread above that the Greater London Authority wasn't designated to an "administrative area". The regions of England were legally defined in 1998, when the GLA was established, as well as the 8 regional chambers. Greater London was defined in the London Government Act 1963 as an "administrative area"—but since the same area is now a region, it is no longer sui generis.
So we in agreement on...
London, or Greater London, is a region of England based on London. It comprises 33 districts: the 32 London boroughs and the City of London. The Greater London Authority is responsible for strategic local government across the region and consists of the Mayor of London and the London Assembly. The ceremonial county of Greater London, created on 1 April 1965, covers the 32 London boroughs but excludes the City of London.
?
I changed "consists of" to "comprises" in the first instance as it reads better.
Rob984 (talk) 19:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
Fine by me; thanks. jnestorius(talk) 09:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Watson, Jo (25 July 2009). "Access to Nature Regional Targeting Plan - LONDON" (pdf). Natural England.
  2. ^ "T 08: 2011 Census – Population and Household Estimates for England and Wales, March 2011" (PDF). Office for National Statistics. 16 July 2012. Retrieved 16 July 2012.
  3. ^ "City of London Resident Population Census 2001" (PDF). Corporation of London. July 2005. Retrieved 10 April 2009.
  4. ^ "Regional Gross Value Added highest in London in 2012". Office for National Statistics. ONS (2014). Retrieved 2014-09-17.
  5. ^ Glass, R., London: aspects of change (1964).
  6. ^ Travers, T., The Politics of London, (2004)
  7. ^ London Government Act 1963
  8. ^ Administration of Justice Act 1964

Simple error (ONS code)

In the infobox it says:

ONS code H GSS code E12000007

I believe this is incorrect - The E12 code is an ONS code, not a GSS code. Also, both labels link to the 'ONS code' page.

By way of evidence, note that the other regions of England (eg. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/South_East_England) label the E1200000x style code as the ONS code. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Qwavel (talk • contribs) 23:21, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Area

Two slightly different figures are given for the area in the infobox and the text - can they be made consistent? Jackiespeel (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

There are two figures in the infobox, one for the ceremonial county and one for the slightly larger region. The one for the region matches the one in the text. Rob984 (talk) 13:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
The lead-in #does# have a different figure: as 'this and the info-box' are what most people will read, they should be consistent. (I presume the difference is 'rounding errors from different sources') Jackiespeel (talk) 21:26, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
No, both figures are correct. The figure of 1,572 km2 (607 sq mi) refers to the region, of Greater London while the figure of 1,569 km2 (606 sq mi) refers to the size of the ceremonial county. The figures are one square mile different from one another as the ceremonial county does not include the City of London which is also known as the 'Square Mile'. Ebonelm (talk) 21:36, 20 April 2017 (UTC)
'As it is' it is unclear/confusing to the 'passing through reader' - an 'including the City of London' or similar would probably clarify the matter. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:53, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Lead Change

The region is called London or London region, the county is called Greater London (not including the City of London). MOS:LEADSENTENCE states "where possible" and WP:IGNOREALLRULES states that if a rule inhibits your ability to improve Wikipedia, ignore it. It is incorrect to state "Greater London is a region..." because it's not, so we should ignore the first part of MOS:LEADSENTENCE in this case, so I propose we change the lead accordingly as it is misleading and suggests the region is also called Greater London. IWI (chat) 19:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

I reverted the change to "Greater London is a county of England located within the London region, a region of England, which forms the administrative boundaries of London" as it seemed wrong. "Greater London", as defined by the Greater London Authority Act 1999, covers all 33 boroughs including the city of London. The "London region" is a fairly boring term used for statistical purposes, a Nomenclature of Territorial Units for Statistics (NUTS) area, and a EU parliamentary constituency, all of which happen to be coterminous with "Greater London". So "Greater London" is the "London Region", not a part of it. Batternut (talk) 18:28, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
There is nothing to discuss; the region is called "London", which can be called the "London region" for clarification purposes (from London). No one seems to want to talk about it on the talk page. Please refer to MOS:LEADSENTENCE, specifically when it states "Use the first sentence of the article to provide relevant information that is not already given by the title of the article." Refer also to any London borough and look in the "region" section of the infobox, which will state "London" not "Greater London". The only reason the region and county are in the same article is because the only difference is one square mile. But make no mistake, the region is London; the county is Greater London. Please properly consider this before replying as you are the only person who is interested. IWI (chat) 18:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC) (Moved comment from my talk.)
@ImprovedWikiImprovment: Maybe you want different articles, another one for "London region", maybe one for "Greater London (county)"? Batternut (talk) 21:59, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Let us consider the Greater London Authority Act 1999:

An Act to establish and make provision about the Greater London Authority, the Mayor of London and the London Assembly; to make provision in relation to London borough councils and the Common Council of the City of London with respect to matters consequential on the establishment of the Greater London Authority; to make provision with respect to the functions of other local authorities and statutory bodies exercising functions in Greater London; to make provision about transport and road traffic in and around Greater London; to make provision about policing in Greater London and to make an adjustment of the metropolitan police district; and for connected purposes

This act established the current administration of London, but the place that it refers to is always "Greater London", which includes the City of London. The ONS, the EU and others may call the place London, London Region or even the Great Wen, but as far as the legal framework is concerned, the place is Greater London. The ceremonial county (which excludes the City of London), is nominally covered by this article too, but since it is a powerless, functionless non-entity, there isn't much to say about it. Batternut (talk) 22:17, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

So just to clarify, one of the reasons you are against this change is because it is a "boring term"? IWI (chat) 22:24, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
No, as I explained above, I reverted your comment because "Greater London" is the "London Region", not a part of it. Batternut (talk) 22:35, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
No, you're wrong. There are two counties of the London Region: Greater London and the City of London. Greater London is a part of the London region; they are not the same thing. IWI (chat) 22:45, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
Whatever happens, do not use common terms lightly: spell it out pedantically and carefully. Separate articles is a good way to do this. The problem of local administration and repeat use of terms for different purposes is not of our making, so we should not try to solve it. We just have to explain it as best we can. If we attempt to sort out the mess on WP we will just make it worse and endd up with numerous inadequate articles, as is currently the case. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 22:53, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
This is a special case; separate articles would be inappropriate because the difference is small between the region and county but there should defiantly be a clear explanation that they are different in the lead sentence. IWI (chat) 23:04, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
How would you like us to understand the term "policing in Greater London", as used in the Greater London Authority Act 1999? Does it just mean policing in the ceremonial county of Greater London, or in both the ceremonial county of Greater London and the City of London? Batternut (talk) 07:09, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Does this act cover both the met police and the City of London police or just the former? IWI (chat) 09:55, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
In fact, all I can see is “Metropolitan Police” with no mention of the City of London Police, which suggests that the act (or at least that portion) refers to the county, not the region. IWI (chat) 10:05, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
In Greater London Authority Act 1999, follow the external link to legislation.gov.uk, click "Introductory Text", and you get the text I quoted above. Batternut (talk) 13:19, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

This is the reference for the names of regions on the Regions of England article; it’s “London”. IWI (chat) 13:42, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

Nobody is arguing that there isn't a region called London. Batternut (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
So what exactly is your argument? This article says "Greater London is a region...", but that is not true. So I repeat, what exactly is your argument? IWI (chat) 19:06, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
WP:IDHT! For the third time, my point is "Greater London" is the "London Region". And please explain how you interpret the Greater London Authority Act 1999. Batternut (talk) 19:53, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
My point is that Greater London is not the London region,. You have not asked me this question so how can you say "for the third time". This act has included the City of London in order to avoid confusion (i.e. saying "London" may cause confusion with the city.) Your statement "nobody is arguing that there isn't a region called London") has confused me; this whole discussion is about the fact that the region is called "London" not "Greater London", so again, what is your argument? IWI (chat) 22:52, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Assertion versus counter-assertion will get us nowhere. The Greater London Authority Act 1999 included the City of London not in order to avoid confusion, but because the act says "'Greater London' means the London Boroughs, the City of London, and the Inner and the Middle Temple, in accordance with section 2(1) of the London Government Act 1963". So how do you define "London Region" if it is not the same as that? Batternut (talk) 23:20, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Or as stated later in the article: "It is organised into 33 local government districts: the 32 London boroughs (which make up the county of Greater London) and the City of London (which is a separate county, but still part of the region)". What is so complicated about it. IWI (chat) 23:18, 15 July 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps the complicated bit that has confused you is that there are two meanings of the term "Greater London": (a) a ceremonial county that surrounds the City of London, and (b) the whole of London, including the City of London. The ceremonial county I described as "boring" because it is a powerless relic. The "whole of London" == "London Region" meaning is the place that the GLA has authority over. Batternut (talk) 23:27, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

I am not confused but I think you are. Greater London may be used erroneously to describe the region, but that doesn't make it true. The region is called "London", therefore the lead should describe this. Why do you disagree with some mention of the difference between the terms in the lead. Greater London officialy is a term for the county, not the region. I have gave you a source that suggests this so again, why do you disagree with this notion? IWI (chat) 00:01, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

You state "Greater London officially is a term for the county", but again you ignore the Greater London Authority Act 1999. Perhaps you don't like that act, or the GLA? Batternut (talk) 00:08, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The City of London is the difference; that act may state your view, but obviously they are going to use a distinguishing term instead of "London" to avoid confusion between the London Region, London and the City of London. I'm not ignoring the act, just simply noting the confusion that could've occurred if they had said "London". Also the use of humour with "don't like that act" is inappropriate, almost as if you are mocking my view here, which I don't appreciate. This discussion I agree is absurd and time consuming to say the least but I didn't think that was necessary. IWI (chat) 00:12, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
'Greater London' means the London Boroughs, the City of London, and the Inner and the Middle Temple. True or false? Batternut (talk) 00:15, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
According to everything but that act, false. IWI (chat) 00:17, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
The act contradicts this government document (among others), which doesn't mention "Greater London". IWI (chat) 00:20, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
According to everything?? C'mon... Batternut (talk) 00:27, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm sure you know what I meant, picking on particular words. What is the Wikipedia policy for when the government contradicts itself then? IWI (chat) 00:29, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
... and that document talks about "Greater London" all over - start with "Map A1f" (page 146). Batternut (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Only there; it seems even particular documents are contradicting themselves. Generally, the document calls the region London and the county Greater London. IWI (chat) 00:34, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
See also page 159, it lists the City of London with the inner London boroughs, having the GLA as the upper tier. No contradiction there. Where does it mention the county of Greater London? Batternut (talk) 00:43, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
No contradiction? Look at all the other pages, including the list of regions (listed as London). On page 147 it shows a map of the counties, in which the CoL is ommited because it is small. My interpretation is that the Greater London Authority is called such to avoid any confusion about its jurisdiction, but applies to the London region. We are getting nowhere as you clearly can't accept that the region is called "London", and avoid this change by referring only to anything relating to the GLA (page 146 is about the GLA). There was in fact no real contradiction as it is made clear that the name is London, the act you described does not decide the name of the region but the document I have shown does, and in the lists(e.g. page 162) (other than the GLA page) refers to the region of London. IWI (chat) 00:55, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm not denying that the government, when listing the regions, refers to Greater London as just London. But your edit said Greater London was a part of the London Region - which was not right as has been amply demonstrated, London Region is just an occasional name for the place. Heck, most people in common parlance talk about London, when technically referring to Greater London. Batternut (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Again: What is the policy when government data contradicts itself. IWI (chat) 00:38, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

There is no contradiction, just two usages of the term "Greater London". WP policy would I think be to discuss whether there's any value in having a disambiguated article Greater London (ceremonial county). Batternut (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there an elephant in this room? Should we really be discussing why there are two articles, Greater London and London? Perhaps they should be merged! Batternut (talk) 01:07, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

They shouldn't be merged, even if their area is the same, this article is for the region and county. But if the region is called "Greater London", then why does every London borough, the City of London, and the Regions of England article all refer to it as London, along with the majority of that document? IWI (chat) 11:00, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Do you understand the difference between the county and region though? IWI (chat) 11:04, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Demography

I placed an "unreferenced section" template on the demography section in December because there are a lot of figures in that section that have no references. The article was recently given one reference and an IP editor today removed the template with the edit summary that the issue is resolved. I am afraid I disagree. The template indicates that multiple statements need references, and particularly it is all the figures quoted. The template is an alternative to littering the page with multiple "citation needed" templates. It can go when the bulk of the figures quoted can be verified. Thus I have put the template back.

Another issue: the one citation that was entered does not contain the figures quoted. I was hoping it would clarify what was meant in the article by "official residents".

I do note that the demography section actually points to a main demography page. That being the case, this section should perhaps be a shorter summery of that page. -- Sirfurboy (talk) 18:35, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposal to move the information regarding the region of London to the article for London

Currently, this article is about Greater London and the London region. I think that the parts about the London region should be moved to the page for London because they are the same thing. Greater London only includes the parts of London outside of the City of London. However, the boundaries of the region of London include the city as well. London, the capital of the United Kingdom has the same boundaries as London, the region of England so I believe that they should share the same article. ParadiseDesertOasis8888 (talk) 03:00, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

That's just because @User:ImprovedWikiImprovment decided that according to "the literature", Greater London is only the boroughs inside the county of that name. In actual fact, "Greater London" has referred to the whole administrative region since before the region was defined as a government office region named simply "London". Hence the Greater London Council and later Greater London Authority which both cover[ed] the whole region. This is explained and cited in the second paragraph:
Administratively, Greater London was first established as a sui generis council area under the Greater London Council between 1963 and 1986. The county of Greater London was created on 1 April 1965 through the London Government Act 1963. The area was re-established as a region in 1994. The Greater London Authority was formed in 2000.
Rob984 (talk) 16:40, 11 July 2019 (UTC)
That is correct, but I didn’t pluck it out of the air. The county is everywhere in the region except the City of London. Whether or not the London region is referred to as Greater London is irrelevant to the query that information about the region should be moved; names are just labels. IWI (chat) 17:55, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I would like to know whether 'Greater London' ceased to exist as an administrative area after the GLC was abolished in 1986, and whether the administrative area called Greater London now exists again since 2000, or whether the GLA actually covers a region called London (which is also the city defined as being the London boroughs plus the City of London) and 'Greater London' only refers to the Ceremonial County (the London boroughs without the City of London). If the latter, then the article as it stands is inaccurate. Uakari (talk) 23:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

Administrative area and region

Is there any evidence that the Greater London administrative area is actually a county-level administrative area covering the two ceremonial counties (Greater London and the City of London)? For example, there are other ceremonial counties with no administrative county, eg Bedfordshire and Cheshire. The Greater London administrative area has been designated as a region of England: the London region. The Greater London Authority was created in 1998, so why isn't it regarded simply as a regional authority?

no part of Greater London shall form part of any government administrative county, county district or parish.
–London Government Act 1963
The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London.
–London Government Act 1963

There is no reference in the Greater London Authority Act 1999 to the "administrative area".

After 1963, Greater London was sui generis administrative area covering two ceremonial counties and their 33 districts. However, since then Greater London has been defined as an official region of England and therefore no longer sui generis.

Also note that the Greater London Authority was created at the same time as the regional assemblies, although in separate legislation, and the London Development Agency (established by the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998) was part of the Greater London Authority.

“the London Development Agency” means the regional development agency established for the London region.
–Greater London Authority Act 1999

All of this makes me think we are over complicating things by distinguishing the Greater London administrative area from the London region. ie, the Greater London administrative area was simply the name for the area before it was defined as a region, with the region being also referred to as "Greater London".

Thoughts?

Rob984 (talk) 10:31, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

To be clear on what I'm proposing, I would change:

Greater London, or the London region, also forms an administrative area and region of England consisting of...

to

Greater London, or the London region, also forms a region of England used for administrative purposes consisting of...

As well as any related statements here or at London.

Rob984 (talk) 11:13, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Seems OK to me. The original citation on the London page that back the administrative area claim was Elcock, Howard (1994). Local Government: Policy and Management in Local Authorities. Routledge. p. 368. ISBN 978-0-415-10167-7. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help) was first published in 1982, pre-GLS. now, perhaps in the revised version, it doesn't mention any "administrative area" (at least when searching with Google books). Batternut (talk) 13:46, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
One word of caution: the region is not called Greater London, but simply London. In infoboxes etc it should continue to be "Region: London". Argovian (talk) 16:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Warning of continued vandalism to only have ceremonial county in the opening sentence 86.14.189.55 (talk) 17:10, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

I would like to know whether 'Greater London' ceased to exist as an administrative area after the GLC was abolished in 1986, and whether the administrative area called Greater London now exists again since 2000, or whether the GLA actually covers a region called London (which is also the city defined as being the London boroughs plus the City of London) and 'Greater London' only refers to the Ceremonial County (the London boroughs without the City of London). If the latter, then the article as it stands is inaccurate. Uakari (talk) 23:39, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

City of London and recent changes

I have reverted recent changes by some IPs because it falsely claimed the City of London is not part of Greater London. That is only true when referring to the ceremonial county, but not when referring to the Greater London administrative area. That is explained in the article. The City of London's own website says about the Greater London Authority: provides the wider strategic direction for the capital and its policies cover all 32 boroughs and the City of London. ([1]) Vpab15 (talk) 11:51, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Greater London and London

Isn't the area of the main article London and Greater London exactly the same? Why do two separate articles exist? Hgh1985 (talk) 14:54, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Completely agree. It's quite right to have a separate article for the square mile. But to separate London and Greater London is mad. All the stats, the demography, history, boundaries, images, everything is identical. Surely one article can make clear that London is both a region, and a city and contains two ceremonial counties etc. Dgp4004 (talk) 22:49, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Remove infobox ethnicity stats?

Should the ethnicity stats be removed from the Infobox? These are the stats for the region but the infobox lists them under the ceremonial county. Although the population of the City of London is small, its inclusion may nudge the stats slightly. I can't find a source for the ceremonial county alone. Dgp4004 (talk) 13:35, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Given the resident population of the City is miniscule compared to the GLC area, I doubt whether it would have any noticable effect on the general statistics. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 13:57, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 13 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is no consensus to move to the proposed title (closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 20:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Greater London → Greater London (ceremonial county) – The current scope of this article and its intro are a confusing mess that needs to be fixed. I propose to create a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to London and re-scope this article to be just about the ceremonial county.

Greater London can refer to the administrative area of London (which includes the City of London and the 32 London boroughs) or a ceremonial county (which is just the the 32 London boroughs and doesn't include the City). Most of the time it refers to the administrative area of London (which includes the City), as in the Greater London Authority (GLA). For example, the list at Mayor of London#List of mayors (a branch of GLA) includes the names of very prominent politicians, like current mayor Sadiq Khan and former mayors Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone. Those are the mayors of the administrative area of Greater London, a position officially and colloquially called just "mayor of London". It is a position with a significant amount of power over a city of 9 million people. In contrast, the ceremonial county is just ceremonial, as the name implies. It consists of just two unpaid positions that sometimes wear fancy dresses at some events but do no real work (a cynic would say the politicians at GLA do no real work either, but that's another story). The lists at Lord-Lieutenant of Greater London and High Sheriff of Greater London are of relatively obscure people. To sum up, the administrative area of London, whose mayors are known internationally, is clearly the primary topic over the obscure ceremonial county of the same name.

Now we just need to make sure the scope of the administrative area of Greater London is exactly the same as that of London so that we can create a redirect. There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus. However, I believe there is irrefutable evidence that London and Greater London are indeed the same thing.

  • The scope is already the same in wikipedia. London#Administration says: The administration of London is formed of two tiers: a citywide, strategic tier and a local tier. Citywide administration is coordinated by the Greater London Authority (GLA), while local administration is carried out by 33 smaller authorities. London#Geography says London, also known as Greater London.
  • Oficially the use is mixed, but it is mostly just London. There is the Greater London Authority, but the Mayor of London, London Assembly, or London Fire Brigade. They all cover the same area.
  • Britannica says Greater London is also generally known as London [2].
  • The recent expansion of ULEZ to cover all of London has caused a lot of media coverage with mixed use. The area of ULEZ after the expansion is referred to as:
    • London-wide in the official webpage of GLA [3]
    • all of Greater London in the Guardian [4]
    • all of Greater London in the BBC [5]
    • the whole of London in the Independent [6]
    • London-wide in the BBC [7]
    • all London boroughs in the Standard [8]
    • all of London in the BBC [9]

Techically, it doesn't cover all of London since the M25 is excluded, but I believe above refereces show that unsurprisingly London is used much more commonly than Greater London but both refer to exactly the same thing. Vpab15 (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

  • Oppose - per the talk section above. Making a primary redirect to London is incorrect, because Greater London only came into existence in 1965. Yes, it can refer to the administrative region and the ceremonial county, but this is clearly explained on the page, and any further clarity is best paced here. But it should not point to the London article, as this compares apples with pears. It also throws the ceremonial county article out into the periphery. The current arrangement is better. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:24, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    I am afraid I don't understand your opposition. Do you think there is no primary topic for "Greater London"? From my research, the term almost never refers to the ceremonial county. You say creating a redirect would be like comparing apples with pears, but in general there are no separate articles for an administrative area and the city or region it covers. Note that the local goverment already has its own article at Greater London Authority. Vpab15 (talk) 19:33, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    The primary topic for Greater London is Greater London, and not London. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:40, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    Thanks, that really clarifies it (/s). Vpab15 (talk) 19:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    You asked Do you think there is no primary topic for "Greater London"?, so to be clear, the answer is that I do believe very firmly there is a primary topic, and this is it - Greater London, which was created in 1965. What I do not believe is that London (created a long time before 1965) is the primary topic. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:55, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    Ok, so what's the difference between the two? Do you know of any city in the world that hasn't expanded and absorbed neighbouring settlements after its creation? Vpab15 (talk) 19:59, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
Oppose partially per Sirfurboy on the point that London is far older than Greater London. London and Greater London are two separate things. There is a great deal of overlap between Greater London and the area of "London", at the very least the latter includes the City of London, which is not included in the former. The present titles are also perfect examples of natural disambiguation. Anyone who searches for "Greater London" most likely understands that Greater London is a different entity from London (which actually isn't a legal/administraitve entity as far as I know), and those who don't probably aren't looking for London, but rather the London metropolitan area, which is in the WP:HATNOTE. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:53, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
The London Government Act 1963 says: The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London [10], so the City is as much a part of Greater London as the 32 London boroughs. A reader wants to know what Greater London is, and from the references I provided it is exactly the same as London. Please provide some reference if you disagree with that. Vpab15 (talk) 20:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Greater London" isn't used for the county AFAIK, note that Greater Birmingham is a DAB that lists West Midlands conurbation. Yes Greater London is also known as "London" (its the name of the region) but the reverse doesn't seem to be true. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:06, 13 September 2023 (UTC)
    the reverse doesn't seem to be true. How can that be? Either two terms are synonyms or they aren't. It can't be that only of of them is synonym with the other but not the other way, it is a commutative property.
    "Greater London" isn't used for the county. Yes it is, what is the name of the ceremonial county that excludes the City then? If you mean that "Greater London", mostly refers to just London and not the ceremonial county, I agree, that's why I said it should be a primary redirect. Vpab15 (talk) 07:57, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
    @Vpab15: Sorry I got "city" and county mixed up, "London" is indeed the name of the region and probably used sometimes for the county but otherwise its unlikely people typing "Greater London" wand the settlement similar to the fact you wouldn't want Tobago if you type Trinidad and Tobago, Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:20, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
    Tobago is just one part of Trinidad and Tobago. From the sources I provided, London and Greater London are the same. Do you have any source that says they are different? If so, which parts of London or Greater London are exclusive to one but not part of the other? Vpab15 (talk) 09:51, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The current articles have appropriate scopes that explain a confusing situation as clearly as possible and have titles appropriate to their scope and to common usage. The proposal does not offer any improvements to any of these. Thryduulf (talk) 08:49, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Vexatious. Vpab15@, you wrote above There was a previous merge attemp at Talk:London/Archive_13#Merger_proposal, but there was no consensus. That was disingenuous. You yourself made the proposal in August 2022 and it was overwhemingly rejected. You argued with almost everyone who opposed your proposal then and you're doing it again now. Please consider WP:LISTEN, Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point must be accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted. NebY (talk) 10:48, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
    This proposal is a move request, clearly different from the previous merge request. Do you have any policy based reason to oppose the move, ideally with reliable sources to back it up? Vpab15 (talk) 13:05, 16 September 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose "London is used much more commonly than Greater London but both refer to exactly the same thing." Classic personal opinion. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:36, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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