Talk:Greater London

Greater London = County of New York

Using different names for different things should be better. However, even if the regional authority has (unhappily) the same name of the different ceremonial county, there is a parallelism between the situation of London and New York, and Wikipedia should reflect this fact. The pages about London and New York are (correctly) on the same level. So this page about Greater London should be managed as the page about the County of New York, which both are one of the metropolitan counties. There is no need to duplicate the informations: the Greater London should advice that “Greater London” can refer to the regional authority, but a disambiguation with the London page (which contains the informations about the authority) should be sufficient.--11piemontesibellitosti (talk) 13:05, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

The article uses the names used in the sources, which you tacitly admit. All taxonomies leak, and trying to treat the UK's capital city in exactly the same way as an American city is not going to plug any holes. The page is perfectly clear that the ceremonial county excludes the city of London. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:49, 3 May 2023 (UTC)

So have I got this right:

Greater London = the ceremonial county.

The City of London = the ceremonial county.

London = both ceremonial counties.

Is that the only difference? Is the lord lieutenancy really so important that it needs several thousand words? Surely one page for the square mile and one for Greater London would suffice? Three separate articles seems a tad excessive.

The ONS doesn't even record statistics for ceremonial counties anymore. Dgp4004 (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

London and Greater London are pretty much the same thing. There is the ceremonial county of Greater London that excludes the City of London, but the overwhelming majority of the time Greater London refers to the administrative area that includes the City. Like in Greater London Authority. But more frequently, it is just called London, like in Mayor of London or London Fire Brigade. There is no other alternative definition of London. But there are two definitions of Greater London, which causes endless confusion. This article should either be merged with London, or just cover the ceremonial county that excludes the City. Currently it is mostly a duplicate of the article London. I suggested to merge the articles before, but there was no consensus for that. But something must be done, the current intro makes no sense. Vpab15 (talk) 08:57, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Duplication is unwelcome and can be reduced by better targeting the information, but there is less duplication with London than you seem to imply, and there is an important difference in that the London article is talking about the historical and current capital city, whereas Greater London refers to the county (and some). As you say, no end of confusion arises with a confusion between administrative and ceremonial counties, made worse by the fact that Greater London is not technically an administrative county at all, so when referred to administratively it is an arrangement that is exceptional in the UK. This article should explain to the reader what Greater London is, and how it is not exactly the same thing as London. I think it largely does that. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:02, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

It's as though Ronaldo had his foot amputated and we made three articles. Ronaldo (whole), Ronaldo (foot) and Ronaldo (remainder). All with the same information. And we go round and round in circles with some saying there should be one Ronaldo article and others saying that the foot is technically not part of Ronaldo and the article is actually quite different. Dgp4004 (talk) 11:43, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

How do the boundaries of 'London' and 'Greater London' differ? Where does London stop and Greater London go on? What's the population of London as opposed to Greater London? Who governs London and who governs Greater London? The article says there are two ceremonial counties on Greater London. How many ceremonial counties are there in London? The Greater London article says there are two police forces in Greater London. How many police forces are there in London?

Either London and Greater London are indeed the same place. Or else both articles are a total mess. And they're a mess because nobody can tell the difference. Because there isn't one. Dgp4004 (talk) 12:09, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

@Vpab15 and Dgp4004: you're right, I fail to see what this article is about, especially given that it's trying to summarise both senses of "Greater London" at the same time. Far better to just either redirect it straight to London, and briefly discuss any nuance about the GL name there, or else change to a dab page giving the various options. The current status quo is not sustainable and confuses readers.  — Amakuru (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

@Amakuru Even if quite obscure, I can see some merit to having an article for the ceremonial county of Greater London. That was the basis of the move request I started below. However, there was no consensus for that. Maybe a new move request can be started, since it has been almost a year since the last one? Vpab15 (talk) 09:17, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Where does London stop and Greater London go on 1965. Although not exactly 1965, because London did not stop then. You are comparing apples with pears. Are you aware that all the London boroughs also are split this way too? See for instance, London Borough of Croydon and Croydon. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:41, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Ah I think I see now, thank you. Dgp4004 (talk) 13:18, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Can someone change districts to boroughs

We are not American, every time I see the 33 boroughs on the summary table called 33 districts my blood boils. Can someone sort this out, I’m no tech wiz at editing these summary tables. 81.107.136.31 (talk) 05:31, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Ive changed the list to 33 Boroughs, but "Districts" seems to baked into the template description. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 07:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

In England a borough is a type of district, see Districts of England just like a tree is a type of plant or a Ford is a type of car. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:00, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Crouch, Swale: Are you sure that this is true of the London Boroughs? I have had a look at the relevant legislation, which is the London Government Act 1963. The act defines the London Boroughs as "administrative areas" and I cannot see any reference to them as "districts". The Act seems to deliberately define them as being outside the standard framework of counties and urban/rural districts which was in place throughout the country at the time. This is the first line:

"There shall be established new administrative areas, to be known as London boroughs, which shall comprise the areas respectively described (by reference to existing administrative areas) in column 2 of Part I of Schedule 1 to this Act" (Section 1, paragraph 1)

The Greater London Authority Act 1999 does not appear to change this definition.

So far as the Districts of England article is concerned, there is a worrying lack of any references to legislation in this article. The ONS reference is dead, but I have found an archived copy. It says that the ONS uses the term "local authority district (LAD)" as "a generic term to describe the 'district' level of local government in England"; in other words the ONS is considering the London Boroughs as districts for the sake of convenience, but acknowledges that it has no power to define it as such.

I would agree that boroughs elsewhere in England are "districts with borough status", but in those cases the "borough status" is granted by a royal charter. London Boroughs were established by Act of Parliament, which is obviously a different process to the grant of a charter. This distinction may be relatively subtle, but it is important. Mertbiol (talk) 19:13, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Metro uses this term. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:17, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Crouch, Swale: So what? A free tabloid newspaper does not have the authority to define anything as a district! Mertbiol (talk) 19:19, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

London boroughs contain a lot more than 33 District Town Centres - see any borough's Local Policy. I agree the term "District" is awkward here. NebY (talk) 21:25, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

It is, but we can leave the districts parameters empty and use the same {{infobox child}} technique as used for the two counties above. I've done that. NebY (talk) 21:32, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

I've tweaked that slightly to refer to the City of London and 32 London boroughs and I think wound up with something a little more straightforward (from this to this). Calling the City a borough can also boil blood. NebY (talk) 21:53, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

@Mertbiol we may have edit-conflicted, both dealing with the City but in different ways. I do slightly prefer my tweaked version, in that it gives us a key that can include and start with item 1, where yours has to omit #1 and warn people not to insert it - and we know how often such warnings are ignored by people convinced something went wrong. NebY (talk) 22:21, 30 September 2023 (UTC)c

@NebY: Thanks for your message. I'm afraid I prefer my version, because it does make it clear that the City is not a London borough. I think the comment that I added makes it clear why the City should not be added to the list and should deter most people who might not fully understand the distinction between the City and the rest of London, who want to "improve it". I suggest we leave it for now, keep an eye on it, and if someone does come along and mess around with it, we can think of a new way forwards then. Best wishes Mertbiol (talk) 22:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

The title "The City of London and the 32 London boroughs" makes it amply clear that the City is not a London borough. Heading the key "London boroughs" is superfluous, but has led you into providing a key that doesn't match the map, which is not good practice and not helpful to the reader. I'll revert. NebY (talk) 08:55, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

@NebY: Thanks for your message. The issue is that we are primarily writing a list of the London boroughs and secondarily writing a key to the map. Your have have switched the priorities here. I don't think it is clear enough from your version that the the City is not a London borough. The "key" does very much match the map. Mertbiol (talk) 09:30, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

No, the list 1-33 is the key to the map and is a list of the "The City of London and the 32 London boroughs", exactly as the map shows and the caption of the map. Your version does not match the map; it omits the area numbered 1 at the centre of the map. How will you correct that? NebY (talk) 09:41, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't see any confusion with NebY's edit. Information in infoboxes will be a summary of the main text and the main is very clear. Having "City of London and London boroughs" allows them all to be labelled whilst still maintaining the clarity of the main text that the city is not itself a borough. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 09:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, but I am not going to fight this. The important thing has been to change "districts" to "boroughs", which @NebY:'s edits have achieved. Mertbiol (talk) 09:50, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Lead

Just a quick thing — I can see what you're aiming for with the lead paragraph, @PlatinumClipper96, but the London boroughs are already mentioned in the second paragraph and I worry it's overcomplicating the lead paragraph to also mention them there. The primary topics of the article are the administrative area, region, and ceremonial county, so the lead para really only needs to go into them. What do you think?

As a side note, the region is just called London, so only that (rather than London region needs to be bold). I think that because the phrase Greater London is already in bold we don't need to also bold the county. A.D.Hope (talk) 11:36, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @A.D.Hope, and thanks for the ping! I think it's crucial that the scope of all three primary topics: the administrative area, region, and ceremonial county are outlined in the first paragraph. The boroughs are probably best introduced here, as the fact they comprise the county of Greater London is key when distinguishing it from the region. Perhaps we could bring some of the information in that second paragraph back up to the first (i.e. GLA covering entire region). I'm not sure we need to outline the responsibilities of the boroughs in this lead - they're well described on wikilinked articles (London boroughs and local government districts).

With regard to bold names, I thought it may be best if Greater London, the London region and ceremonial county of Greater London were all bold, as these are the three topics of this article. I think London region should be in bold, as the topic here is this administrative region, not London itself. Perhaps "ceremonial county of Greater London" can be non-boldface. PlatinumClipper96 (talk) 12:04, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

See, I'd say that the key distinguishing feature of the ceremonial county is that it doesn't contain the City, rather than its boroughs. The lead para also needs to introduce and explain the differences between the administrative area, region, and county, which is quite complicated. I therefore think it's simpler for readers if other administrative areas and bodies are mentioned later in the lead.

I can see the logic for bolding 'region', and on reflection I agree (this article isn't London, after all), but I think we can get away with 'ceremonial county of Greater London' being non-bold. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Only Greater London should be bolded unless other words are incoming links. See MOS:BOLD. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

'London region' is. A.D.Hope (talk) 13:17, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

It appears ceremonial county of Greater London also is! PlatinumClipper96 (talk) 13:27, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

In which case neither should be wikilinked. We are saying that these are terms defined in this page - incoming links. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 13:43, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

I don’t think the MOS prohibits boldface redirect terms from being wiklinked, although you could argue it’s against the spirit of the rules.

Readers aren’t particularly likely to know what ‘region’ or ‘ceremonial county’ mean in a UK local government context, so if the terms’ aren’t linked at the first mention we’ll need to make sure that both have a prominent, linked, second mention in the lead paragraph. A.D.Hope (talk) 07:17, 6 October 2023 (UTC).

MOS:NOBOLD applies here: Avoid using boldface for introducing new terms. Instead, italics are preferred (see Words as words). NebY (talk) 12:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I’m not sure it does; the words have been made bold because they’re part of a redirect, rather than to introduce them as new terms. For example, if ‘ceremonial county’ weren’t part of a redirect we wouldn’t italicise it. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:07, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

We don't have to bold incoming links, but we may do so when it makes sense. Good examples are NASA (full name and abbreviation bolded) and Snowdon (Welsh and English names bolded). In this article I think it makes sense to bold London or London region, but it really doesn't make any sense to bold ceremonial county of Greater London because the ceremonial county of Greater London is known as Greater London. The fact of an incoming link is irrelevant. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 19:17, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

I’d been thinking along similar lines myself, and agree with you. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:37, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Greater London and the Region

I'd like to suggest a change to the introduction of the article as it is quite misleading. The London Region is a region of England that consists of two ceremonial counties - Greater London and the City of London. Greater London (without the City of London) is what we refer to as the capital of England and it is not coterminous with the region which also covers the City of London.

What I have bolded are three different entities on different levels of local government that should not be confused with each other.

I get that calling the City of London a borough (part of Greater London) is for ease of understanding, but it is nonetheless misleading. Felleno (talk) 15:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

As the London Government Act 1963 says, "The area comprising the areas of the London boroughs, the City and the Temples shall constitute an administrative area to be known as Greater London."[1] This area has far greater administrative significance than the ceremonial county, let alone general awareness. Perhaps you refer to Greater London as the capital of England and mean an area which excludes the City of London, but I don't know why you would say that "we" do that in describing London as the capital. NebY (talk) 16:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Greater London and the City of London are two different ceremonial counties. I am saying that because the page for the ceremonial counties of England says so as well.

However I agree that Greater London also has the rights of a devolved government (that of Scotland or Wales) because it is classified as such.

Though e.g. on the page London, which is supposed to be for the capital city of the UK, there is a Wikimedia map which clearly shows Greater London with the City of London missing.

My original issue was that the London Region is not coterminous with the area known as Greater London because according to many pages everywhere on Wikipedia: Greater London is one of the two counties within the London Region, the other being the City of London, which is (most likely) not part of Greater London.

I believe that the London Government Act that you provided is about another entity - the Greater London Council (now referred to as the London Authority), which governs Greater London directly and the City of London's government is subordinated to it. On a map though, Greater London is usually shown as an entity that does not cover the City of London, unless the map is referring to the entire authority.

The act could mean that the government of Greater London is the same as the government of the entire region which also covers the City of London. The City of London also has ceremonial county and city status though. Felleno (talk) 09:37, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there are two ceremonial counties and maps of ceremonial counties will show that. Why should we treat that definition as the most significant meaning of "Greater London", over and above that used in the various Acts concerning the government and administration of London and in the name and scope of the Greater London Authority, which has a direct impact on the lives of Londoners far beyond the occasional ceremonial? Rather, our lead and the body of the article clearly and correctly describe both usages. NebY (talk) 12:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

That is understandable. Thank you for your replies. Felleno (talk) 12:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Infobox images

I've just reverted the lead to its three-image form. This is the same as that used for the ceremonial counties, e.g. Buckinghamshire, and it seems appropriate to treat London similarly. However, as the infobox has previously been reduced to one image it seems sensible to open a discussion. A.D.Hope (talk) 19:01, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm with you. Murgatroyd49 (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)