Talk:Ghost of Kyiv

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Frequently asked questions

Q: I heard the videos were fake. Why is this an article then?

A: As cited in the article's opening paragraph, the Ukrainian armed forces have indicated the Ghost of Kyiv is a fictional character. Similar to some other fictional fighter pilots this article exists because the topic is considered notable as a propaganda legend.

Q: I left a comment, where did it go?

A: This talk page is not a forum. It is about improving or discussing changes to the article. If your comment was just having a chat about the Ghost of Kyiv, it has been removed or archived to help maintain productive discussion.

This article was nominated for deletion on 25 February 2022. The result of the discussion was keep.

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This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:

February 27 to March 5, 2022

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Stephen Harrison (1 March 2022). "How the Russian Invasion of Ukraine Is Playing Out on English, Ukrainian, and Russian Wikipedia". Slate. Retrieved 1 March 2022. If you're curious, the Ghost of Kiev's wiki page describes it as an "unconfirmed MiG-29 Fulcrum flying ace" credited with shooting down six Russian planes. The page also notes that the Ghost is most likely an urban legend that has had the effect of boosting Ukrainian morale.
Annie Rauwerda (21 October 2022). "Russian Oligarchs Keep Dying in Suspicious Ways. Wikipedia Is Keeping a List". Slate. Retrieved 22 October 2022. Hours after the Feb. 24 attacks, Wikipedia had an article stating that the Ghost of Kyiv, a heroic pilot who shot down six Russian planes, was fact; after further reporting, current revisions clearly mark it as an apocryphal morale booster.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been designated as a contentious topic.

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

Kupfer, Alexander; Puhr, Harald (2022-03-21). "The Russian View on the War in Ukraine: Insights from Google Trends". Rochester, NY. doi:10.2139/ssrn.4063194. Interestingly, the most prominent related query for Kyiv relates to 'Ghost of Kyiv', a Ukrainian (unconfirmed) internet phenomenon
Bera, Rajendra Kumar (2022-05-07). "Putin Lost in a Maze". Rochester, NY. doi:10.2139/ssrn.4102689.
https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/military-review/Archives/English/Online-Exclusive/2022/KleisnerandGarmey/Kleisner-Garmey.pdf "The UA has also prioritized distribution of narratives surrounding heroic deeds by Ukrainian personnel. Very early in the conflict, the focus of these narratives was the potentially mythic “ghost of Kyiv,” a Mig-29 pilot allegedly responsible for numerous air-to-air kills."
Lee, Michael (2022-05-02). "Heroic 'Ghost of Kyiv' fighter pilot is a myth, Ukraine says". Fox News. Retrieved 2022-07-23.
"Ukraine admits 'Ghost of Kyiv' fighter pilot is a myth". The Independent. 2022-05-02. Retrieved 2022-07-23.
Brown, Larisa Brown. "Ghost of Kyiv is alive in all pilots fighting for Ukraine, says air force". ISSN 0140-0460. Retrieved 2022-07-23.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-ghost-of-kyiv-myth-1.6437895
Lonas, Lexi (2022-04-30). "What we know about the 'Ghost of Kyiv'". The Hill. Retrieved 2022-07-23.
Miller, Christopher; ALEX; Ward, Er; Forgey, Quint. "'We are all ghosts of Kyiv'". Politico. Retrieved 2022-07-23.
Thompson, Stuart A.; Alba, Davey (2022-03-03). "Fact and Mythmaking Blend in Ukraine's Information War". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-07-28.

entries in see also section

This article is about a mythical character, and the entries in "see also" section should be mythical as well. I removed one non-mythical entry (8-Pass Charlie), but Pr0pulsion 123 reverted my edit with a very cryptic edit summary. I don't know why 8-Pass Charlie should be added. I would like Pr0pulsion 123 to present their opinion. As my reasoning is sound, I will remove the non-mythical character for now. —usernamekiran (talk) 19:12, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Usernamekiran 8-Pass Charlie's identity was anonymous for more than 50 years uptill recently when an Airforce magazine claimed to have revealed his identity. He had been a legend amongst the Cold War time Pakistani as well as the Indian Airforce (they gave him the name) which is why i think it should be here. Moreover Juba (sniper) is also present hence 8-Pass Charlie should be too. Pr0pulsion 123 (talk) 19:53, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pr0pulsion 123: Hello. I apologise if my previous comment looked a little arrogant. I didn't mean it that way. I think we should include only mythical/urban legend characters in the list, and should exclude the personnel whose identity is/was withheld (anonymous). —usernamekiran (talk) 14:46, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with usernamekiran for this. 8-Pass Charlie is different from the Ghost of Kyiv in that he's a real pilot who actually existed but who's identity was anonymous. While both were legends, one was confirmed to be true while the other was confirmed to be fabricated. WP:SEEALSO only requires that the linked article be "relevant," and while the topics are tangentially related, I think the difference between a fictional pilot and a real one is significant enough to refrain from linking them. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 15:23, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Late 2022 clarifications

This articles on Russia's blunders has a full section on Ukrainian airforce surviving early strikes and continuing the fight at a time it was officially out of combat. The Ghost of Kyiv was the whole Ukraine airforce still working when it should not have. Search "Ukrainian pilot" or "Oleksii" in that article. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/12/16/world/europe/russia-putin-war-failures-ukraine.html Yug (talk) 🐲 18:10, 24 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Use of "mythical" to mean fake

The first use of the word mythical (wikilinked to "legend") is quite colloquial, and probably not the best for an encyclopaedia. This ghost is known modern fake news, known to not exist, not a simple old time legend, or even an urban legend. 117.194.205.171 (talk) 22:53, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Myth" is the most common word used in the sources to describe it. If you read the article too it seems the idea of the Ghost of Kyiv originated and gained traction on social media Tristario (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the point is that a myth arises from tradition or is widely held to be true. Seems obvious that neither applies in this case. The role of social media arguably indicates an origin in designed propaganda that the legacy media could adopt with plausible deniability, along the lines of Bellingcat. Shtove (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Propoganda works. Slatersteven (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it mythical and or fake news?

Doesn't make any sense. It was straight up fake news, not real. Why are there such different and inconsistent standards on this website? 217.174.52.232 (talk) 19:03, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? The article does not say that the Ghost of Kyiv was a real pilot, introduces the story as a myth, and clearly says where and when the breaking claims were being made before concluding with a "Confirmation of falsehood" section. --Belbury (talk) 19:31, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the first sentence of “Background and Claims” the text mentions that Russia began a large scale invasion. To be more accurate to the present situation I would mention attached to any invasion term on the article, the word “ATTEMPT”, because until now, the large scale invasion hasn’t succeed. Thank you. Balbareto (talk) 16:35, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wel it kind of has, as they invaded Ukraine, and they are still in Ukraine. Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That’s right, thank you. Balbareto (talk) 11:20, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Invasion doesn't mean the same thing as annexation. If they invaded at 9:00 in the morning, were confronted by massive resistance, and had to retreat back across the border by lunchtime, never to return, it was still an invasion. Mathglot (talk) 21:09, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is true, invasion is a corrected term in this case for the moment. Thank you for your answer. Balbareto (talk) 11:21, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It will always be the case, they will never not have invaded. Slatersteven (talk) 11:27, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Manga

Someone made a Manga about the ghost https://www.asahi.com/ajw/articles/14800527 2603:8000:2942:4A00:31CC:DAAE:AEA0:9097 (talk) 21:35, 16 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unclear if any planes were actually shot down?

The article and citations make it very clear that no singular "flying ace" shot down 5 enemy aircraft.

However the veracity of the each supposed event is not discussed. The six planes were reported as two Su-35s, two Su-25s, an Su-27, and an enemy MiG-29.

Did any of these shootdowns occur? Were they by multiple pilots, then attributed to a singular mythical "Ghost of Kyiv"? Were the planes destroyed, but by something other than a fighter jet? Are any of the supposed aircraft losses actually documented or true?

Article could be improved by showing evidence for each individual claim.

PK-WIKI (talk) 21:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't this picked up by news media as well

seems relevant. I seem to remember a few news sites showing what they'd found on twitter with no indication that they doubted it at the time. 2604:3D09:D78:1000:86E6:3027:CF0C:4B90 (talk) 00:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and we do mention thae fact it was, such as The Times. Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]