Talk:Gender pay gap

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Gggaby.m (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Avil.M18.

Inequalities across skill levels and industries

The gender wage gap can be best visualized through the median wage difference between men and women categorized in the same skill level. A study by the ILO conducted in 2019 suggests that the total median wage gap of 62 analyzed countries is 12. The wage gap differs with skill level and profession. According to the ILO statistics on the gender wage gap in 2019 emphasizes that the median wage of female Managers is 26% lower than of men (skill level 3). This wage gap is similar to craft and related traded works, which are generally classified at skill level 2. In other sectors, like agriculture, forestry and fishery workers (on skill level 2) on the other hand the wage gap is consistent with 11%. Women's marginalization in high-skilled professions and the large gender pay disparities in management and technical positions are also significant signs of the glass ceiling that women still face in the labor market.

This is also emphasized by the divergence of weekly non-adjusted wage gap. A cross industry study regarding the US gender wage gap by industry in 2018 shows an average 24% cross industry non-adjusted weekly wage gap The statistic shows the gender wage gap in the United States in 2018, by industry. In 2018, female employees working in retail trade earned 606 U.S. dollars per week on average, while their male counterparts earned 746 U.S. dollars. Gender wage gap by industry in the United States in 2018, by median weekly earnings (in U.S. dollars). This shows that the US non-adjusted gender pay gap average exceeds the total median of 12%. The industry non-adjusted weekly wage gaps vary from 1% in construction industry (male dominated industry) to 40% in professional and technical services and a non-adjusted weekly wage gap of 63% in the Finance and insurance sector, implying that on average, men earn more than the double the absolute wage of women in the Finance and insurance sector in the US.

Addition to:

References

Defining adjusted gender pay gap

Non-adjusted gender pay gap is defined in this article, so would make sense to also define adjusted gender pay gap. 75.134.150.144 (talk) 05:23, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@75.134.150.144 I think it already does an adequate job at this: "after adjusting for occupation and hours worked, the gap is changed to 11%." —Panamitsu (talk) 01:40, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Removal of non peer-reviewed sources

An edit from Sep 2021 removed two large-scale studies for being "based on self-published and not peer reviewed sources". This sounds reasonable. However, the current introduction to the article states "In the United States, for example, the non-adjusted average female's annual salary is 79% of the average male salary, compared to 95% for the adjusted average salary", giving 4 references. To my knowledge, none of the 4 sources for this statement are from peer reviewed sources, and all of them are self-published.

• [2] is from a company called Glassdoor, described by WP as "an American website"
• [3] is a CNN article citing a study from the advocacy group AAUW
• [4] is the exact same study from AAUW, cited a second time
• [5] is from the Society for Human Resource Management, which appears to be a lobbying group (according to the WP page).

Should I remove these sentences, or is it better to add citations to the Payscale and KornFerry studies back?

EDIT: this appears to be a recurrent problem within the article, for example the studies from Morning Star and the NSF in the "Industry sector" section do not seem to have undergone peer-review either.

The above unsigned comment was added by Papazupazuzu, back in 2022. Although they seem to be inactive now, I'm inclined to agree with them, at least partially.

My issue here is not just with peer review, but the notability of the sources.

But the biggest complaint I have is that we have a problem with lede clutter. The article is currently rated as C-class, yet its lede is nearly 350 words long, which is in the upper range of what is advised for an FA-class article, per MOS:LEADLENGTH. There's even a video. This makes the lede uncomfortably cluttered, using less prestigious sources, one of which is arguably unreliable (in the case of Society for Human Resource Management).

My solution was to move these studies to the relevant US sub-section, and to WP:GLOBALIZE the lede with more reliable sources. Yet Avatar317 restored these sources to the lede. I'm open to the suggestion that my edits were partially misguided, and perhaps some of the content I added to the lede should also be removed for de-cluttering. Yet I can't see a reason why these USA sources should stay in the lede, and I also think the video should be moved as well. Have a great day, folks. - Amaebi-uni (talk) 08:11, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

It seems a little silly to complain about a large lead when your edit added two paragraphs to make it bigger. But anyhow, I do support moving the video to elsewhere in the article, and also moving the paragraph you added: "More recently, other factors (such as the burden of healthcare costs)..." somewhere else in the article.

As a second comment, I think the statement I restored of the example (better sources would be nice) of the difference between non-adjusted and adjusted numbers is valuable to have in the lead; QUANTification is very informative. I would support having the above mentioned paragraph: "More recently, other factors..." in the lead if there were numbers with it. To me the lack of numbers means we have lots of text with little information. Does the sum of these other factors add 0.2% to this gap, or 12%? If it adds <1% it is probably not worth mentioning in the lead. ---Avatar317^(talk) 23:59, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

References

Corporate reported gender pay gap

American Express reported that worldwide women made 6.7 percent more than men for same jobs.

"American Express is one of the few major companies to disclose its unadjusted pay gap, a blunt assessment of the difference in wages it pays to employees based on gender and race. Globally, female employees made 106.7% of the median pay for men last year." 2600:1700:D591:5F10:E1FA:104:4147:F4D7 (talk) 15:56, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

@2600:1700:D591:5F10:E1FA:104:4147:F4D7 I have no idea what that means. The source hasn't made it clear what that means, either. It almost looks like a typo. —Panamitsu (talk) 01:38, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Latest edit

The last edit while certainly making some improvements, has also just straight up removed content, including the definition of the article subject. If nothing else, the lede sentence should be brought back into the style of Wikipedia. But I would suggest that the rest of the article be also looked over. It sounds a bit preachy as it stands. And the section about the sex ratio in China doesn't seem quite relevant. 94.44.251.251 (talk) 16:23, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, this new intro doesn't sound very encyclopedic. It's editorializing when it says "...it is essential to consider the adjusted pay gap." After "the adjusted average salary for women in the United States may be 99% of the average salary for men," it cites the AAUW's "The Simple Truth About The Gender Wage Gap", which does not contain any such statistic. I think the editor meant to cite the Payscale report. I think this edit should be reverted – it's mostly summarizing/editorializing what was already there. Gladius-veritatis (talk) 23:58, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

coally article, debunked

https://incels.wiki/w/Scientific_Blackpill_(Supplemental)#The_.22Gender_Pay_Gap.22_does_not_exist Darbymarby (talk) 23:17, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

@Darbymarby "incels.wiki", yeah... —Panamitsu (talk) 01:28, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Why only one point of view?

Why is there no criticism of the gender gap when there are economists who refute the idea? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.170.44.134 (talk) 01:25, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

@5.170.44.134 There is already a bit of information on motherhood, which I guess is what you're talking about. Even when not all workers are all childless, women tend to earn less which is explained in the article. It'd be better if you provide your sources. —Panamitsu (talk) 01:32, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

I want to change it so it is correct and with the current times as it has fallen to be incorrect if we are accounting for current times. Helloitsmeballer (talk) 12:50, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Liu1126 (talk) 14:39, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 April 2024

I want to add more information on the causes of the gender pay gap.

'The BBC faced scrutiny after publishing the salaries of its employees earning at least £150,000 a year, with particular focus on gender disparities. Female presenters raised concerns about earning significantly less than male counterparts. However, broader data suggests that the BBC's gender pay gap may not reflect the broader labor market. Studies indicate minimal differences in pay between men and women with similar roles and levels within companies. The issue appears to stem more from women being in lower-ranking positions at lower-paying organizations. Nonetheless, discrepancies at the top levels of organizations, including the BBC, are not uncommon. In Spain and Germany, top-ranking women earn considerably less than their male counterparts, likely because men dominate the upper echelons and work more hours on average. .

When the gender pay gap is adjusted for jobs at the same level, company and function, it seems like the disparities almost disappear in staff and professional positions, the ones that remain can be explained by the average hours worked and perhaps gender discrimination.' I also wanted to add the 2 images that my source (https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/08/01/are-women-paid-less-than-men-for-the-same-work, no paywall link: https://archive.is/wM302) uses. Dimmlerthegreat (talk) 17:51, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done The above isn't about the causes of the gender pay gap, per se, it's a factual statement it exists. The images are likely copyrighted and can't be used here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

References

Flawed scientific method

Isn't the entire premise of the Gender pay gap inherently flawed since to actually prove that any of the differences in incomes between women and men are rooted in sexism, wouldn't you have to actually isolate all other factors that influence pay?

To come to the conclusion of structural sexism against women would require comparing only men and women

• at the same company
• in exactly the same position
• with exactly the same boss/hiring manager
• with exactly the same experience
• with exactly the same education
• who have negotiated in exactly the same way and/or persist-ency,

would it not? How is this taken into account, and why is there no mention/criticism of these factors? 4TUAhKILR5H2E (talk) 11:35, 1 December 2024 (UTC)

The terms you're looking for are the controlled and uncontrolled pay gaps. Both are structurally meaningful, and Berkely has a study discussing them: Pay Equity — EDGE in Tech at UC

They also need to be correlated with the gender opportunity gap (U.S. Opportunity Gap: Previous Reports | Syndio) -- 2600:6C51:447F:D8D9:FDFA:132F:7A8:BD7A (talk) 11:25, 2 December 2024 (UTC)