Talk:Freedom Planet

Notability

Is an unreleased kickstarter funded game notable enough for its own article? Fench (talk) 19:00, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

It comes out in less than a month, and already has a Steam store page. Given that, and the several sources already cited on the page, I'm not entirely sure how it'd fail WP:NOTABLE. --Shadow Hog (talk) 19:38, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Notability goes by "significant coverage in reliable secondary sources" - in theory, anyway. It's an incredibly nebulous guideline, so deletion/merging discussions tend to go more by what the voters like and think is important to cover. I guess this game's just gotten lucky - although having several articles exclusively about the topic at hand is usually enough. Tezero (talk) 19:54, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Looks like I'm probably wrong about the notability after all. Glad I was, though, since I probably never would have looked into this game if it wasn't for this article, and now I'm planning on buying it. Thanks, Wikipedia! Fench (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Nice! I've got it, too. Not wild about Lilac as a character, but the game is a fun aping of S3&K with some Mega Man blood. Tezero (talk) 16:50, 24 July 2014 (UTC)

Reviews

Weird... After all of that hype a while back, Metacritic records not a single review of the final product. Tezero (talk) 05:14, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, it was listing reviews for Freedom Force for a while...? --Shadow Hog (talk) 05:31, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Never bothered to check then, but... that is even more strange. Tezero (talk) 06:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Free use images

Thinking about picking up the GA review, but have a few questions first. Has anyone (have you) contacted the devs about licensing free use images? If not, I'm happy to, but wanted to ask first so I wouldn't be stepping on toes czar ♔ 09:22, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I haven't, czar, but good idea. I'll set up an account at FP's forums and ask there. Tezero (talk) 15:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I've joined the forums and requested free-use images and, if possible, more dev information. Tezero (talk) 19:56, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, he's been online since I sent my message but he hasn't responded. Wat do? Tezero (talk) 15:29, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Unexpectedly, czar, he just got back to me with what amounted to a blank check to utilize any images I see fit to. It's in a private message, though; what kind of documentation is typically required for these things? Y'know, before he sells his soul to predatory elitism incarnate. Tezero (talk) 05:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Let's hope he has some time before that soul reaver bit. Have him send an email to permissions-commons@wikimedia.org and you with the consent text and a description of what he's licensing (I'd recommend having the press kit released instead of, you know, the whole game). When you get the email, upload the press kit to Commons and reply in the thread (you can leave the author out) with links to where the files have been uploaded so the OTRS rep knows where to add the permissions. Easy peasy. (Though if you'd prefer me to handle it, just let me know.) Nice work czar ♔ 05:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I rather like the screenshot that's there (I took it myself), though admittedly part of its appeal was to show what Milla looks like and that wouldn't be necessary if other pics allowed (and the reader doesn't have, say, Brevon, Torque, or Neera now). Still, it illustrates a lot that a promotional still might not. That certainly is a foreboding consent email, though I'll give it a shot. Is it common for creators to back down after reading it? Tezero (talk) 06:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Some, few, and with reason. But this is the only way to protect their rights. Alternatively, you can just ask for his consent to use the one screenshot you already made instead of a larger press kit (but if you had the latter, and ideally a GIF or short video, it could be used as an example of a Sonic-style platformer in related articles since it's free use, etc.) czar ♔ 12:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I've asked. I'll see what happens. Tezero (talk) 17:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I now have the press kit and everything! I think tomorrow I'll upload pics of a couple characters, the full artwork, and maybe another screenshot. Tezero (talk) 05:56, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Freedom Planet/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Czar (talk · contribs) 02:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I've read through parts of this already pre-GAN, so I'll review it this weekend czar ♔ 02:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Please respond below my signature so as to leave the original review uninterrupted.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose is "clear and concise", without copyvios, or spelling and grammar errors:

   a few clarifications requested

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   some unreliable sites, though

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   direct quotes need direct citations

   C. No original research:

   I think this is okay but watch the liberty in which you paraphrase a review, e.g., how positive it is ("felt positive overall") unless the author or a secondary source says so

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   good work

   B. Focused:

   I do think there are focus issues, especially in the plot, but not enough to hold up the nom. I trust that you'll do what you think is best.

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Your best article yet, if I may say so

• I think this article is mostly ready to go, but in this review I'd like to stress one thing: weight. I'm not sure why the type of animals and names are in the lede unless it is important to the game in some way I do not yet understand. (Why not just say three anthropomorphic animal player characters?) I haven't played the game, but unless there are cutscenes that aren't mentioned in the article, I imagine that the plot plays as much of a role here as it does in the 2D Sonics. Consider that right now the Plot section is much longer than the Gameplay. This insinuates that the Plot is of equal if not greater importance in the overview of this game. I would recommend cutting the Plot in half, but that recommendation is outside the scope of the GA review and just a friendly suggestion for your consideration.

• I've added a small mention of that. I do have to stop you there, though; the plot is a large part of the game and it's way deeper than just "get the Chaos Emeralds and stop Eggman with your friends" - it may be modeled after the 2D Sonics in gameplay, but the plot's more on the level of Sonic Adventure 2. Not all characters have all the same cutscenes, so there's even more than you'd get in just a single playthrough. The characters all have dialogue and personalities so I really don't think it's appropriate to just say that there are three in the lead; it seems that you mostly work with games that don't really have stories so you might not be used to having to cover that. And the lead doesn't even mention that there's an energy crisis between three warring city-states that the three player characters get caught in or anything, which it probably could. I mean, I don't want to sound angry, because that totally isn't my intent, but I feel strongly that the plot should be represented about as much as the other standard categories for this article. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Which is why I left it your call. It's fine for GAN minimum standards czar ♔ 01:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• "fast-paced" in lede has no citation in text

• Done. It's covered in everything that compares it to Sonic, so I've done that. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Link fangame in lede, health meter, life, gelatinous, wall jump, double jump, boss

• There's no page on double jumps, the concept of lives is covered in the Health article, and I don't know what I'd link "gelatinous" to. Done the rest. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Excellent job with Gameplay

• Thank you! I think it's because I pretty much wrote it all at once and worried about citations later - most of it's cited to the game itself (I don't think there's any original interpretation there so it should be okay) - so I developed it more naturally than I have in the past. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Lilac's maximum health is seven leaves, Carol's six, and Milla's four." WP:VGSCOPE? How about they differ in health gauges.

• Eh, that doesn't give a sense of about how much a leaf helps or attacks might hurt. I tried "The characters' health gauges range from four to seven leaves", but that's just more vague while taking up the same amount of space. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• What matters more than the "energy cube" is what it does

• Figured it was obvious, but done. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I still don't know what an "energy cube" is but okay czar ♔ 16:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

A... cube made of energy. Tezero (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• "Milla; she" → "Milla, who"

• Done. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• "In Adventure Mode, the player does not select a character from the beginning, but early on when Lilac and Carol temporarily split up." Unclear

• Reworded. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Would be worth describing time attack in the text

• What's there to explain? Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

What it is... czar ♔ 16:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Done by you. Tezero (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Tablets?

• What about them? Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

They're left unclear in the text: "There are also collectible tablets that are dispersed throughout levels and place artwork in a gallery that can be viewed later." Do you use them? Do they unlock stuff? How about, "Dispersed throughout the levels are collectible tablets that unlock gallery art for later viewing." Remember your audience czar ♔ 16:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Oh. I thought unlocking artwork was clear by the verb "place", but reworded. Tezero (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• My head is spinning by the third ¶ of the plot. A bit too much detail? Or see my original comment?

• Maybe I can cut the plot a little. It's been condensed to about half of what it was already, but I suppose a little more can go while preserving comprehensibility. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• "The game was the brainchild of Stephen DiDuro—known online as "Strife" and, for this project, GalaxyTrail—who also served as lead programmer." Recast. Strife may be better as a note, and the sentence is a little awkward as is. Also decide when he will be DiDuro and when he will be GalaxyTrail because I don't understand why the latter is used later ("GalaxyTrail is currently saving up money").

• Fixed. I'm just sticking to DiDuro all around because he really isn't even referred to as GalaxyTrail very often. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Pull quote rambles a bit—try reducing?

• Done, but is it considered bad form to use an ellipsis in a pull quote? Tezero (talk)

Not at all czar ♔ 01:24, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Fantastic work—really impressed

• Reception: You know how I feel about WP:ITALICS: "Online magazines, newspapers, and news sites with original content should generally be italicized". I'll leave it up to you.
• Prerelease is one word

• Done. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• If you can avoid a "[sic]" or two by recasting, you should.

• Done. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• Direct quotes need direct citations (WP:MINREF)

• ...Where aren't there any? Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

I see at least two remaining in Prerelease czar ♔ 16:06, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I know you prefer it this way, but I really don't think it's widespread outside your work. I mean, I randomly picked Dishonored, an FA that passed pretty recently, and there are a bunch of instances where this is not done. Same with Flotilla and Secret of Mana, two other FAs I randomly remember. I can do it if you think there's a reason it should be here and not in those other articles, but I think it disrupts the flow of the text more than anything else. Tezero (talk) 16:19, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

That's fine then. It's how I was instructed to do it in my first GAs and it's by the letter of the guideline, but in any event IAR. ♔

• Statements like "my only complaint thus far is that the foreground in the demo level is quite bland." should be paraphrased (with the punctuation on the outside, if quoted)

• Done. Tezero (talk) 07:28, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

• The ugly: Gamescape, MeriStation, Nerd Reactor—they don't look reliable. (MeriStation looks the best of the bunch, for what it's worth.) However, I know you did due diligence by bringing this to WP:VG/RS and only opinions (no facts) were sourced to the articles, so I'm going to let it be for now if you insist on keeping them. However, I don't suggest that you do, and I don't think it'll fly at FAC.

• I don't insist on it, but all else being equal I'd rather keep them for now in case one or more of them is determined reliable at WT:VG/RS. Thanks for the honesty, though. Tezero (talk) 01:16, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

As I said, I think this article is a clear pass, but I'll leave the review open for a bit to address some of the clarity stuff and if you have any responses to my points czar ♔ 00:00, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

czar ♔ 16:49, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Linux compatibility

The article currently states that the game is available for Linux, but the official website only mentions Windows and Mac. Steam only lists Windows. The (apparently out-dated) FAQ suggests running in through a Windows emulator. If the game can only be run in Wine or something, than it should not be listed as being available for Linux. If the game really is available for Linux, the article should probably explain were to get it, or why it's not on the main page, the Steam page, the Humble store, the Kickstarter page, etc. Grayfell (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Good catch. I didn't find a source to verify that either, so I removed mentions of OS X and Linux. Feel free to add back if reliable sources appear czar ♔ 12:48, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Cool, thanks. The Humble Store does sell a Mac version of the game, and the game's website has a Mac demo. The Kickstarter page also mentions it. (Strange that Steam doesn't). Not rock-solid sources, by any means, but since it's a fairly mundane point, I don't think it would be inappropriate to list Mac compatibility in the infobox. Or they could update their website and make it easy for us. Grayfell (talk) 21:17, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

As a Linux gamer who just found this, I can tell you it does have Linux compatability through Steam, I don't know if they've updated their site or if this is a recent change, but I figured I should point this out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.69.222.106 (talk) 10:26, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Possibly unreliable sources, for public record

Paul Camacho of Gamerscape scored Freedom Planet 5 out of 5, commending its boss design, story, voices, and aesthetics. Camacho did express reservations for the game's confusing level design and "saturated" music, but found these excusable because the old Sonic games had these features as well. Aaron Carter from Nerd Reactor gave the game four and a half out of five stars; he enjoyed the gameplay and sound design but singled out the story: "You don’t see to [sic] many story driven side-scrollers, but Freedom Planet went for it, giving you very well acted cut scenes that will [each] have you anticipating [the] next one." Fellow Spanish-language reviewer Ramón Nafria of Vandal Online scored it 8 out of 10, also giving subscores of 8 to its graphics, gameplay, and overall fun and a 7.5 to its sound.

What the FAC?

@FAC coordinators: I took a brief look at the article on mobile as I was heading out on Saturday night and saw a massive glaring error. Planned to oppose today, but it has already gone through. The reception section is wrong. It's the only section I looked at, and calls into question the quality of FAC reviews.

Nathan Grayson at Kotaku did not review the full game. He merely played the demo as is clearly explained twice in the source. He couldn't praise the bosses, he only encountered one boss. He also didn't "enjoy" the pacing, he was ambivalent and merely noted how it differed to Sonic games. - hahnchen 12:10, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, Hahnchen. Tezero and Freikorp, can you comment? --Laser brain (talk) 12:59, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Well spotted that he only reviewed the demo. First things first, i've reworded and relocated the information. Secondly, Grayson talks about "The two main demo levels". I have not played the game, though the article states each level has a boss (and a miniboss), so I don't see any issue with the term "bosses" as he should have encountered two even if he only talks about one. Nevertheless I have removed the term for the time being until we can get a consensus. As per my source comments at the FAC (this was only second FAC review by the way) I checked for dead links and redirects, source quality and use of primary sources. I also checked for reference formatting (though I did not actually mention this), and I used duplicates detector to test every single source for copyright violations and close-paraphrasing, though I did not do a thorough check to see if the sources backed up their respective statements, nor did I say I did. If someone had of told me that that was required I would have complied. This is not Tezero's first FAC nomination, so I didn't think that was necessary; at the next FAC review I did I was informed of this discussion, which seems to agree with my assessment. While this mistake is concerning, these things happen, and I'd be very surprised if this isn't an isolated mistake (of this magnitude at least) within this article. Freikorp (talk) 13:36, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I know he only reviewed the demo. I thought I mentioned that (might've gotten erased in the copyedit), but the reason it was in Post-release instead of Pre-release is that when I added it, there were almost no other reviews and it was technically a post-release review. If it's ambiguous, feel free to change it, although I'm not sure if much of what he talked about changed with the release of the full game. Tezero (talk) 15:14, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

The offending passage was my own addition during the copyedit. I hadn't read the source, but I assumed (given the placement of the material) that had Kotaku reviewed the full version—so I tweaked the wording accordingly. It was an honest misunderstanding; there's no need to start a witch hunt over it. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 08:02, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Jimmy, you previously mentioned WP:VG's lowering FAC standards. Our nominators and reviewers need higher standards. We're trying to promote quality, not just earn more stars with QPQ pats on the back. The only FAC I reviewed this year was Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/God of War III/archive4, and it's clear the nominator had not done the research (somehow having never come across http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/the-making-of-god-of-war-iii).

After a PR and two FACs, this article passed with the sentence, "Taboada lamented the game's obscurity and suggested that, had Treasure obtained the rights to Sonic and released Freedom Planet as an official sequel, it would have been more popular." Great copyediting, it's all grammatically correct, but what a brainless piece of content! Had Treasue obtained the rights to Tomb Raider, and released Freedom Planet as an official sequel, it would have been more popular. Had Microsoft included Freedom Planet in Windows 7, it would have been more popular. What did you think this sentence added?

Other minor points, I disagree with this article being described as having "strongly praised" the visuals, and this article as "exclaiming" praise when it's merely a +1 on a bulleted list. The Grayson pacing sentence should be revisited, it's pretty clumsy. - hahnchen 00:54, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Out-of-date

This article has fallen behind and needs updating with information about the Wii U version. We now have drive-by IPs adding poor information about the release, introducing citation errors, etc. @Tezero: are you planning to keep this current? --Laser brain (talk) 16:47, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

@Laser brain: I'll be happy to take care of this in Tezero's absence. In the midst of waiting for a final source check on Bentworth, I have enough time to address any concerns here. Is there a FA reassessment for this yet or an official list of concerns? JAGUAR  12:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

@Jaguar: No, the normal procedure is to raise issues on the article talk page before doing anything else. My exact concerns are as follows:

• The "Development and release" section ends with the announcement of the Wii U version in March 2015. There has been a lot of stuff in gaming news about the Wii U development, the launch being delayed, and I think even cancelled, so this section should be updated with the currently known information.
• We should also see if anything else is known about the MacOS port.
• Someone put Wii U TBA in the infobox and supplied a malformed citation/source that's producing an error in the References section. I don't know what the standard is for video game articles—do we put TBA in the infobox or wait until an actual release date is known?

Thanks for agreeing to work on this. --Laser brain (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, I have attempted to address them in the article. Firstly, per WP:VG/RELEASE, a "TBA" in the infobox is acceptable if the game has been announced but no release date has been given. One of the IPs were right in assuming the Wii U version would be released on 13 August, but the game has recently been setback due to a serious bug. Secondly, I have added some new content to the development and release section, using all of the reliable sources out there (numerous IPs added Twitter and blog sources, which are usually discouraged). I couldn't find anything about a Mac OS release, which is strange as the only inclusions of it are one short sentence in the development section and another mention in the infobox. I'm not sure if Tezero added it, but if there is no coverage of a Mac OS release then perhaps it should be removed? JAGUAR  13:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Here is a primary source for the OS X and Linux release announcement: http://steamcommunity.com/games/FreedomPlanet/announcements/detail/139951937476472100 – czar 14:59, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks czar, I've added that to the infobox as it's probably the best suited for a primary source. JAGUAR  15:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks all! I think everything is taken care of, at least until more is known about the next releases. --Laser brain (talk) 11:06, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

*does Kramer walk in* Hey, everyone. Laser_brain, I've updated the page to the best of my knowledge; is there anything obvious it's still missing? Tezero (talk) 01:04, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Why is this under the category of Sonic the Hedgehog series?

It started out as a fangame, okay, but it clearly isn't: Inspired by - yes, part of the franchise - no. In the meantime, I'll remove the category table at the bottom since there isn't any evidence to make it part of the Sonic series. 125.238.119.101 (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmm... You're right that it's not part of the franchise, of course, but that's not really what Wikipedia:Categorization is about. Not being officially part of the franchise isn't really a reason to remove the category. The majority of sources mention the game's connection to Sonic. Actually, most of the sources mention Sonic or the Genesis in their titles, so this seems like it's a defining aspect of the game, per WP:CATDEF. Someone interested in topics related to Sonic would potentially be interested in this article, so it may be helpful to include the category. Grayfell (talk) 04:19, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a Category:Sonic the Hedgehog fangames would be reasonable for this article, though it would only really include this article, Sonic: After the Sequel, and possibly Super Smash Bros. Crusade... It's really difficult to ascertain whether Freedom Planet's current relation to the Sonic franchise means it should be categorized as such. I suppose, seeing as categories are only intended for Wikipedians to interact with, it doesn't really matter much. I'm personally fine either way.

If Freedom Planet would be part of Category:Sonic the Hedgehog, where would that leave Freedom Planet's sequel when it eventually gets released? ~Mable (chat) 09:17, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

"Fangames" seems limiting, but I'm not sure what a good alternative would be. Works based on the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise or maybe Games based on the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise seem like it would give us more options (like Somari), and would be making less of a judgment about Freedom Planet's status. It might be too broad, though, since every Sonic game is 'based' on the Sonic franchise. That pattern is used for Fifty Shades of Grey and Category:Works based on Twilight series, so it seems like it might work here, and it's really nice to have categories follow consistent patterns when possible. That's an odd comparison to make, isn't it? Grayfell (talk) 22:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

All the other items in the category are Sonic themselves, so it seems a bit off to have an odd one out that's related to Sonic but isn't. Everything else in the category is Sonic to the core, so it seems a bit out of place. 125.238.119.101 (talk) 22:35, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, it is weird. Category:Sonic the Hedgehog video games has the official games (and Somari again) while Category:Sonic the Hedgehog has general Sonic-related topics, including people and bands who've worked on the project. To me, rock bands like Magna-Fi and Julien-K seem far less obviously Sonic-related than Freedom Planet, even if the connection is unofficial. Categories are often kinda messy that way. Grayfell (talk) 23:14, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

There is Category:Unofficial works based on Mario, so we could do a Category:Unofficial works based on Sonic, though I don't think that solves the issue any more than Category:Works based on the Sonic the Hedgehog franchise. I suppose simply categorizing Freedom Planet under Category:Sonic the Hedgehog for now is fine? It's not that important, after all, and the loose relation might be the way people look for Freedom Planet, making it a useful categorization. ~Mable (chat) 08:25, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

That makes the most sense to me. It's imperfect, but better than nothing. Grayfell (talk) 09:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

References

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The Japanese title

フリーダムプラネット This is just google translate tho I don't know if this game came to japan Brownspoof (talk) 03:52, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

That does say Freedom Planet/Furiidamu Puranetto, yes, but this not being a Japanese game, we would not use that title within the article.--Alexandra IDV^talk 12:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Freedom Planet 2

The second game is finally out after so long (i was beginning to wonder if it will ever come out), will there be a page for it or not? Ahmad kaluu (talk) 08:41, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Ahmad kaluu I saw that screenshots for Freedom Planet 2 are on wikimedia, I wonder if anybody will add them. Either to this article or to a separate article if that is created. Particularbeach (talk) 12:37, 17 April 2023 (UTC)