Talk:Fireman (steam engine)

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Fireman/Boilerman

I am a fireman on the Corris Railway in the UK. I have never heard of a fireman on a locomotive referred to as a boilerman in my life! If no-one has any objections, I'd like to change the wording somewhat ... Cheers Witchwooder (talk) 12:39, 22 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have never had anything to do with operating trains, but I've read a helluvalotta railway books, the majority of them British, and I've never heard of a "boilerman" either. I've added a "citation needed" tag, but really this is too weak. The article needs to be retitled. It also needs to acknowledge the term "stoker". 208.76.104.133 (talk) 01:03, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-titled it - I'll check to make sure there are no dropped or recursive links. Witchwooder (talk) 08:54, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Should be renamed "Stoker (occupation)"

I got to this article from the Stoker dab page, via a redirect from the Stoker (occupation) link on that page. I think naming this article "Fireman (steam engine)" is a BIG mistake. A fireman on a steam engine is only one of several jobs done by a stoker. Coal-fired boilers that heat buildings are loaded by stokers (I watched my father load the one in his mother's basement 60+ years ago when I was a child, and I am SURE such heating systems have not become totally extinct worldwide during my lifetime), where only heat is being produced: no engine of any kind is being powered there. Watch the wonderful Russian movie The Island, in which Anatoly is working off his guilt as a stoker in a remote, far-northern monastery in the late 1970s; there's no steam engine there either. (Adding a link to "stoker" in that article is what brought me here.)

Renaming this article "Stoker (occupation)"—or something equally or even more inclusive—would make it much more relevant, useful and (most important) accurate than "Fireman (steam engine)", the inappropriately restrictive title it has now. An acceptable alternative would be to create a separate "Stoker (occupation)" article, but that seems unnecessary for an occupation that's rapidly vanishing in ALL of its contexts and unlikely to be revived. —104.244.192.66 (talk) 02:21, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is a consensus against changing "Fireman" to "Stoker", but while other possible disambiguators were proposed, there is no consensus on whether the current disambiguator should be changed or not. (non-admin closure) Iffy★Chat -- 13:09, 17 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Fireman (steam engine) → Stoker (occupation) – WP:GNL Georgia guy (talk) 13:54, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support As the article states, the occupation does not always involve steam engines, so having that in the article title is contradictory; and Fireman otherwise redirects to the gender neutral Firefighter. 'Stoker' is both more accurate, in terms of the range of the job, and gender neutral. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:10, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support a move because a fireman is not a steam engine. feminist (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- I also support Fireman (boiler operator) or boiler fireman per Netoholic. feminist (talk) 02:41, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
- In fact I'd oppose the proposed title because it is shown below that "stoker" is an uncommon/incorrect title for the occupation. feminist (talk) 02:44, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Gender neutrality is not a criteria of WP:Article titles - in fact, even if proven that the title was gendered (which has not been shown), then it still must be used like we do other titles which would seem to be non-neutral (see WP:POVNAME). "Fireman" seems according to Google Ngrams to be vastly more common, and so is the WP:COMMONNAME for this occupation. Suggest Fireman (boiler operator) or boiler fireman, based on what seems to be the modern industry term[1][2][3][4], but open to other alternatives that are based on the COMMONNAME. -- Netoholic @ 18:01, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Stokers are not the same thing as firemen. It's a more skilled and far more responsible job. GNL does not override COMMONNAME and certainly not basic accuracy. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:27, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Andy Dingley, what disambiguator would you suggest? (steam engine) certainly doesn't work because a job is not a steam engine. feminist (talk) 03:03, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Fireman (steam engine) is fine. It's a disambiguator, not an implication of identity as that term. That might be an issue for Fireman, steam engine, but not it we bracket it.

It disambiguates firemen [sic] who extinguish fires, vs. firemen who attend steam engines. It's not as common a term for steam engines generally as it was (universally) for steam locomotives, but it's a better match for the article scope. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:04, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here in Britain on steam engines on the railways such men have always been called firemen. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 19:54, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Per nom (GNL) and Rebecca. Seems "stoker" is the broader term for the occupation of shoveling coal into a firebox. I understand that in Britain, on train steam engines, stokers are called firemen, but the scope of this article is broader than that, and I'm not sure we need a separate article about those particular kinds of stokers, as opposed to, perhaps, having a "On steam engines in Britain" section in this article that says those particular kinds of stokers are called "firemen". Also, the dab "(steam engine)" does suggest that this article is about a type of steam engine as fem points out, and that's not helpful to our readers. Leviv ich 21:06, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
the occupation of shoveling coal into a firebox.

That's not all that firemen do. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:04, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Considering how I linked above three examples showing that boiler firemen need specific training, certification, and licenses - its easy to see how misinformed he is. -- Netoholic @ 23:17, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as nominated. I researched this for Wiktionary a few months back and found that "fireman"/"firemen" is the commonly used term for the person employed on a steam locomotive regardless of their gender, there is no widely used alternative term. I agree though that "steam engine" is not the best disambiguator, so how about Fireman (rail transport) (to avoid the railway/railroad). Thryduulf (talk) 14:39, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
From what I can tell, this article covers both moving and stationary occupations, so we need the title to reflect that. I think Locomotive fireman might probably[5] be a better title if it was only about the rail transport occupation. -- Netoholic @ 17:02, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, good point the article is wider than rail transport. I'll keep thinking. Thryduulf (talk) 17:36, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose The term universally used in the UK is "fireman". The responsibilities included maintaining the boiler water level, keeping the fire, maintaining steam pressure, and ensuring that steam was provided for carriage warming. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:15, 10 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why not Fireman (UK)? Leviv ich 00:39, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Levivich: because the article is not exclusively about the UK (as an aside the scope of rail-transport terminology is very rarely the UK - it's far more often either Great Britain and the island of Ireland or just one of these), nor (as Netoholic points out above) is the article exclusively about rail transport. "Fireman (UK)" would also not distinguish this article from Firefighter as "Fireman" was the standard name for that occupation in the UK. Thryduulf (talk) 10:23, 11 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Margaret Thatcher

Afaik, a union (or unions) in the 1950ies had enforced that firemen also "worked" on trains that were not driven by coal. M. Thatcher abolished that rule in the eighties (1982 ?). --Neun-x (talk) 14:41, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

With the switch from steam to diesel and electric traction, the post of "fireman" was renamed "secondman". On diesel-hauled passenger trains where the coaches were steam-heated, one of the secondman's duties was to attend to the train heating boiler. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:27, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of Watertender

I'm proposing to remove references to Watertenders from this article. A watertender is not a stoker, he is instead responsible for pumps, evaporators, condensers, and other apparatus relating to boiler feedwater (hence the name), as well as supervision of the stokers and coal passers. The US Navy used the term "fireman" (1st, 2nd, and 3rd class) for stokers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:300:CA70:0:0:0:E438 (talk) 21:34, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]