Talk:Emperor Yingzong of Ming

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Requested move 8 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed for over a week. Jenks24 (talk) 06:15, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zhengtong Emperor → Zhu Qizhen – or Emperor Yingzong of Ming. WP:NC-ZH specifies that emperors of the Ming dynasty and Qing dynasty should be titled using their era names and the rationale is that unlike monarchs of previous dynasties, each Ming and Qing emperor only has 1 era name during his reign — except this guy, who had 2 (due to his capture by the Mongols). Therefore Zhengtong Emperor is inaccurate to say the least. A Google Ngram search finds no results for Zhengtong Emperor, Tianshun Emperor, Emperor Zhengtong and Emperor Tianshun, but Zhu Qizhen gets a graph. (Although Zhu Qizhen is also the name of the modern diplomat, a casual glance at the Google Book search results shows that over 90% of the "Zhu Qizhen" results are about the emperor.) Also see Template:Ming emperors on how changing the title is necessary. Timmyshin (talk) 12:17, 8 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

@Timmyshin and Jenks24: I saw this too late to make a comment before the discussion was closed. I believe Emperor Yingzong of Ming would be a better title, as his personal name is not well known (partly because emperors' given names were considered taboo during imperial China). Most Chinese emperor articles use temple names or posthumous names, not personal names. The Chinese wikipedia also uses the Emperor Yingzong title. -Zanhe (talk) 21:47, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't object to that. I guess you can do another RM. Timmyshin (talk) 22:02, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Timmyshin: So, just to be clear, you would be happy with the "Emperor Yingzong of Ming"? If so, it might just make more sense for me to move it now rather than list the whole thing at RM for another week – it doesn't appear that there a lot of people interested in this title. Jenks24 (talk) 04:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No. I as a rule prefer personal names, in this case Zhu Qizhen, and NGram shows that it's not obscure. While it's true an emperor's given name is taboo during his dynasty, at least it was used during his life unlike a temple name which is posthumous. Plus, this emperor was a prisoner for quite a few years, and I doubt his captors (including first the Mongols and later his brother) had to observe the naming taboo. The other 2 Ming/Qing emperors not titled by their era names, Hong Taiji and Puyi (I don't consider Nurhaci an emperor), are both titled by their personal names (Hong Taiji may not be a personal name and that's up for debate, but for sure it's not a temple name). Timmyshin (talk) 04:29, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks for the explanation. Zanhe, it looks like if you want it moved there will need to be a consensus decision, so feel free to start a new RM. Jenks24 (talk) 04:45, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I won't object to it. Emperor Yingzong is acceptable to me, I just personally prefer Zhu Qizhen. Timmyshin (talk) 04:48, 17 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 14:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Zhu Qizhen → Emperor Yingzong of Ming – Most Chinese emperor articles use temple, era, or posthumous names, not personal names. Yingzong is more common than Zhu Qizhen in reliable sources: Yingzong Ming = 2350 results; "Zhu Qizhen" Ming = 637 results. Also see discussion above. Zanhe (talk) 21:08, 22 November 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 08:11, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support - per nom; Chinese article is also called "Yingzong Ming" —Мандичка^YO 😜 12:25, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.