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Merge discussion on Emerson Middle School and Union Hill Middle School

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No consensus to merge or rename. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:20, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gtwfan52 previously favored the redirect of the Union Hill Middle School article into the Union City School District (New Jersey) article. Gtwfan52 took it upon himself/herself to make this redirect, even though he was the only one who spoke in favor of this move, while I opposed it, and no other editors joined the discussion. Gtwfan52 cited WP:WPSCH/AG#N as the rationale for this. I reverted the redirect, pointing out that WP:WPSCH/AG#N is not a policy, guideline or consensus, but an essay, and that essay merely repeats that articles on schools must pass the general notability guideline, which calls for significant coverage in secondary sources. I pointed out that the Union Hill article has the same number of secondary sources as the Emerson Middle School (New Jersey) article, and now, in response, Gtwfan52 turned that article into a redirect too, and has listed the Union Hill one for deletion. The deletion discussion for Union Hill is here. I will address the Emerson matter here:

Gtwfan52 cited WP:WPSCHOOLS/AG in the edit summary, in which he created the redirect, but did not specify what portion of that guideline applies. Emerson Middle School passes the notability guideline by virtue of being covering significantly in secondary sources. These include two articles in The New Times, as well as articles in The Union City Reporter, New Jersey Monthly, and sources like the New Jersey State Interscholastic Athletic Association, etc. It is notable for being the alma mater of notables such as Erick Morillo, Esther Salas, Brian P. Stack and Frank Winters. The school is notable. Nightscream (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: I have expanded the Emerson and Union Hill articles with material on the Turkey Game, which is another thing that makes both schools notable. According to the sources cited in the article, the Turkey was part of a unique rivalry, because schools in the same district generally do not compete against one another. Emerson and Union Hill did so because they each started out as the single high school that served a respective town (West Hoboken and Union Hill), and that rivalry continued even after those two towns merged to form Union City in 1925. Nightscream (talk) 21:05, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have to disagree about the two middle schools being notable. I agree completely that the two high schools are. Therein lies the problem. The building is not the school. The school is the school, no matter where it is located. This is not a problem about the content of either article for the most part, it is about the name. All of the recently added content is about the historic high schools, not the current middle schools. There is nothing notable about the middle schools. Please read the proposal I have placed on your talkpage. I put it there because it is about both this discussion and the AfD on Union Hill. I think that will solve the problem to the satisfaction of all. Gtwfan52 (talk) 21:30, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not believe that the middle schools are notably independently of the high schools, and I did not state that I did. But I believe that the current incarnations of the schools and their previous ones have a shared history, as I mentioned on your talk page and in the Union Hill AfD discussion. Nightscream (talk) 01:24, 26 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The Turkey Game is not "off-topic", it is directly and uniquely relevant to Emerson and Union Hill. And while it is currently the largest section in the article, there are others as well with great detail, such as the History section, which is only slightly smaller than the TG section, as well as other evidence of notability, such as the notable alumni section. Nightscream (talk) 23:52, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge -> Rename The fact that this article calls it a middle school makes a magnet for those Wikipedia editors who are always looking for a reason to get rid of articles, regardless of the actual content of the article, and leaving it titled "Emerson Middle School" will only perpetuate this problem, even if the arguments that it should be retained as is carry the day in this discussion. The issue is that this is *not* an article about a middle school; it is an article about a high school that used to be located in a building that is now used to house a middle school with a similar name. As a high school, there is rather strong consensus that it is notable, and there are ample reliable sources to support the claim. The Turkey Game material is relevant and should be included, but needs some drastic pruning to address WP:UNDUE issues. Once the article is renamed, and the focus changed to the former high school with a mention of its repurposing as a middle school, the weak justifications proffered for merger are addressed. Alansohn (talk) 18:33, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Merge, Oppose Rename For those who weren't following the similar discussion for Union Hill Middle School, it was recently closed as keep, and without a renaming. The final comment in that discussion, which I think also applies here, is from User:Kudpung, who stated, "It was once a high school so it does not [lose] that notability in spite of the current page name (there is a cat for defunct schools), and the well sourced article provides valuable, relevant background to whatever it has since become." Given the result of that discussion, I think consistency would require the same result here. Nightscream (talk) 17:16, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi, closing admin from the Union Hill AFD here. I closed it as "keep" because there was a strong consensus (even including the nominator eventually) not to delete the content, but not to endorse any particular version of it. I viewed the decisions as to whether the high school and middle school should be described in the same article or whatever the article title should be, as ones for normal editing and discussion to resolve, and had I opined in a closing statement on those matters I don't think it would have been binding anyway on the article's further development. I of course welcome editors to review the discussion in that AFD to the extent those comments have relevance and persuasive value for this article's issues, however. postdlf (talk) 17:51, 2 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This has been listed at AN as needing closure. I can't close this because although I have not commented here, comments of mine elsewhere have been cited that may affect the consensus here. I do believe however that consensus is clear and that the discussion can now be assessed closed by an uninvolved editor. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:09, 17 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Requested move 11 January 2017

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Dane talk 07:26, 19 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]


Emerson Middle School (New Jersey) → Emerson High School (Union City, New Jersey) – This article isn't about the middle school, it's about the high school that used to occupy the building. Any inbound links should be referencing the title of the high school, not the middle school. Alansohn (talk) 16:05, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support the article should be titled for the now-defunct high school and the content adjusted accordingly. That the facility is now used as a middle school should certainly be mentioned, but the notability of the subject is from its time as the high school, especially things like notable alumni and athletics, which are clearly both from its time as Emerson High School. It's a case of separating a school from a specific building. A school can occupy several buildings over time and a building can serve as the home of multiple schools over time. If this were just an article on the middle school, it likely isn't notable enough for a stand-alone article, and the building itself is apparently not notable on its own (like if it were listed on the National Register of Historic Places). --JonRidinger (talk) 21:06, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The majority of the article is about the high school. The only material specific to the middle school isteh info box, a bit of history (i.e., it's housed where the high school was before it was merged, renamed, and moved), and mention of a check presentation at the school (and the program isn't even housed at the school). I agree with, JonRidinger. I don't see enough here to justify an article about the middle school. Meters (talk) 22:57, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - as that is essentially the position I argued in the merge discussion above. Nothing much has changed. John from Idegon (talk) 06:14, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
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