Talk:Elves in fiction

Tolkien description

Under their description section for Tolkien, I deleted the reference to super strength. That is found nowhere that I know of in any Tolkien work, and everything I've read (which is almost everything in the Tolkien universe) suggests their raw strength is, at best, human level. In fact, in Hobbit and LOTR's, there are several references that suggest they have less raw strength than men. If it is reinserted, please cite to something that could support your argument (I could do the same). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.3.16.231 (talk) 21:19, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Legend of Zelda

Link is NOT an Elf, he is Hyrulian and human. Zelda IS an Elf, and so is (I believe) Ariel from The Wind Waker. I'm going to delete that Link statement and replace it with "Zelda of The Legend Of Zelda is an Elf." or something along those lines. (User failed to sign and date their comment)

Where are you getting this from? Elves are never mentioned in the Zelda series at all, as far as I know. Rather both Zelda and Link are said to be Hylians - although each game has a slightly different scenario, and Link often is only later revealed to be a Hylian. In any case, I suggest the whole Zelda section be rewritten to say they are "elf-like", or simply removed altogether. Thorf 21:04, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

here is my beleif: Hyrulians are elves. IN wind waker hyrulians are extinct. Arial is link's sister link is human (hero of time reincarnated) therefor his sister Arial is also human. Zelda is reborn as Tetra a human. Oxinabox1 01:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Tetra isn't Zelda reborn, she's just a direct descendant. Personally I'm more annoyed about the fact its been categorised as an RPG. --Bisected8 18:26, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Hyrulian is a nationality. All citizens of Hyrule are Hyrulian, whether they're Goron, Zora, human, or of course, Hylian, the race which Princess Zelda, Link, etc belong to. Hylians have long pointed ears, ties to the gods, 'magic infused blood' to quote the original ALttP booklet, and they are often beautiful, so what's not typically elf about them? Miyamoto himself has even described Link as an elf before. Also, Hylians are not extinct in Wind Waker. The whole reason Aryll and the other girls get kidnapped by Ganondorf's bird in Wind Waker is BECAUSE they are Hylian, so therefore they have a possibility of being Princess Zelda's descendant and possessing the Triforce of Wisdom, which he is after. 24.125.127.43 (talk) 02:08, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Elves in Exile

There seems to be a convention that elves as a race are in exile, should something be said of this? I believe it stated with tolken the elves being in exile for Valhai (sp? middle earth hevean. but i a lot of books this is portayed as the elves being form an alternate plain (or dimention or world) and are slowly tying to get back over many generations. this excile is impoortant because when elves die (or wish to leave because they are being hunted etc.) they (in these books) return to there home plain/ country or slip down in to anther plain to continue there search. comments --Oxinabox1 01:43, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

"Elves in RPGs" section

I think the criteria for this section are a bit too ambiguous. Its seems to include both TCGs, P&Ps and Video games. Plus is LoZ actually an RPG? (well I won't start that argument here). --Bisected8 18:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Elves in fantasy literature inheriting the Tolkien tradition

There are numerous examples in modern fantasy literature that depict elves similar to Tolkien's elves, such as Urshurak, Shannara, or Eragon. In some cases like Raymond Feist's elves from Midkemia (which started as a role-playing setting but now is best known as literature backdrop), there is a mix of direct inheritance of Tolkien's elves (Feist even uses Tolkien's elf languages creating his own tribes of eledhel, moredhel, glamredhel and eldar) and totally divergent histories/origins. Jorganos (talk) 12:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

article name

shouldnt this page be called Fantasy elves instead?· Lygophile has spoken 23:59, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

    I'm not sure, but it's a good idea ;] Joker Prowess (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Warcraft Section

I know this isn't terribly important, but the small mentioning of the High Elves in Warcraft is a bit off. The elves that choose to follow Kael'thas and go to Outland ( or those that followed, stayed, and were ordered to reclaim Quel'thalas ) became Blood Elves, while there are, according to one of the RPG books, quite a few surviving High Elves who didn't choose to follow their prince-- around three or so thousand. Just thought I'd point that out. I would've changed the section, but I'd like to see how important everyone else thought it first. --Super Bhaal 15:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Deedlit-.jpg

Image:Deedlit-.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Legolas.jpg

Image:Legolas.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 22:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Ardougne Mourners Elves???

Someone created this false, long-standing statement that the mourners in Ardougne are Elves in the RuneScape section of elves. I know RuneScape really well and I've been playing it for half a year and I already know better than someone trying to immitate Zezima. Anyway, the statement of the mouners being elves is that the Head Mourner is a human. If the Head Mourner's a human, then the rest of the force must be humans as well. The only way that the Mourners and Elves are connected may be that the Mouners have contacts with Dark Elves in Arandar. That's the only way possible.

Your's truly,

Joker Prowess (talk) 16:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Harry Potter

J K Rowling noted about house elves several times in the contemporary hit fiction series "Harry Potter" where the elves are depicted much differently. In these literature elf first came to be noted somewhat like, "A magical creature wearing pillow cover ..." But, there is no good mention (only 3 sentences) of such elves and the total article is oriented around Tolkien. I think more precise information about Harry Potter elves can be added. Further, I must add that, the flavor of Tolkien must be lessened from the article, his works are really great but in this entry he is far too dominating. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nafsadh (talk • contribs) 21:03, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Redirect

Elves redirects here. I have decided to be bold and have elves redirect to the Elf article, with this article as a suggestion for further reading. Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:36, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

This is wise. Our plural titles should almost invariable to go the same place as the singular version, or readers will be confused and misled.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:16, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Convention begun by Tolkien?

I don't think the pointed ears of Elves can be seriously attributed to Tolkien. Elves and other wights associated with the wild (notably Satyrs) have long been depicted with pointed ears. During the Renaissance there were admittedly few depictions in artwork in the English-speaking world of Alfar-like Elves, the majority being of tiny stature (Hobs), and admittedly it was Tolkien who revived the Norse-style Elves, and Tolkien may have been the first to solidly connect Nordic Elves with pointed ears, but it's doubtful the idea originated with him. Pointed ears had by that point become such a standard trait of Elves that almost any revival of the Nordic-style Elves was likely to retain this characteristic.

I don't understand why Tolkien fans have this need for Tolkien to have come up with every idea in the history of humankind. I think sometimes they'd credit him with the invention of the rocket, the internal combustion engine, the wheel, and the domestication of the horse, dog, and cat if they could find a way. Previously on WIkipedia the troll entry credited Tolkien with introducing the idea of trolls to the Anglosphere, despite stories like Three Billy Goats Gruff antedating The Hobbit by centuries. The page on hobbits still wrongfully attributes their invention to Tolkien, even though it's been proven that the word "hobbit" as a variant of "hob" (the word for the diminutive Elves famous for making shoes and toys) had appeared in the Denham tracts, and even with this proof Tolkienists still try to claim that Tolkien's hobbits were completely unrelated to previous hobbits merely because he corporealized them just as he had Orcs, Elves, and Ents. Tolkien is very clearly not the inventor of pointy-eared Elves, and the suggestion of such is just plain ludicrous. This is getting to be truly tiresome. --Þorstejnn (talk) 20:20, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

It is definitely a mistake, since virtually every theme in Tolkien's Middle-earth work is borrowed directly from earlier traditional folklore and mythology. However, it is not at all a mistake to credit Tolkien with the modern fictional depiction of human-sized elves and the influence his version had on later fiction. While he drew this idea directly from Norse myth, other writers (Terry Brooks, Gary Gygax, Wendy and Richard Pini, etc., etc.) just copy-pasted his concept without drawing on the mythological material much if at all. The other "elf-tradition" in fiction, of leprechaun-like little-people (J. K. Rowling's, etc.), is from the Santa Claus elf folklore side, and has little connection, even tenuous, to Tolkien. Folklorically, it has closer ties to Celtic (including Continental) than Germanic legend (despite Santa Claus being otherwise principally Germanic).

On a side matter: Has anyone even sourced the idea that Tolkien made his Elves pointy-eared? I read LotR when I was a kid, and don't recall seeing that but do recall wondering on it, because it seemed to be the assumption of everyone, and they were definitely pointy-eared in the Dungeons & Dragons version of elves, which was otherwise borrowed wholesale from Tolkien. At this point, Tolkien fandom art (including Peter Jackson's movies) makes everyone including the Hobbits, Dwarves, and Orcs pointy-eared, but I think this really dates to D&D and The Sword of Shannara, i.e. the late 1960s to mid-1970s, and may be especially attributable to the art of the Brothers Hildebrandt.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:14, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 26 August 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Elves in fiction (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 17:56, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

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Elves in fantasy fiction and games → Elf (fiction) – Per WP:SINGULAR and WP:CONCISE. The current name also fails WP:PRECISE in the fairly uncommon direction of being too narrow, because of how far the definition of "fantasy fiction" has shifted over the last half-century or so. It has become a fairly tightly defined genre fenced by clichéd fantasy tropes, when it originally just meant works based on folklore but in a more modern fictional style. Also, video and roleplaying games are still fiction; we do not add "and games" to article titles of all fictional things that also show up in games, which is pretty much every single thing that shows up in other fiction by this point.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:09, 26 August 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. No such user (talk) 12:10, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support, you had me at WP:CONCISE. Randy Kryn 00:12, 27 August 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose – The current title is too long but the proposed title is not appropriate: all elves are fictional creatures, so the title "Elf (fiction)" would have a wider scope encompassing existing articles Elf and Elf (Middle-earth); we would need to make it more WP:PRECISE again, defeating the purpose of WP:CONCISE. Given that the scope of the article contents is, broadly construed, a description of common tropes about elves in various fantasy settings, I suggest the WP:NATURAL and WP:CONCISE title Elves in fantasy. It could also be Elf (fantasy) but that looks awkward and this is a case where the plural form is more widely used than the singular form. Finally I would delete the Elf (fiction) term because it's impossible to decide whether it should redirect to this article or simply to Elf. Doesn't serve much purpose because, again, all elves are fictional. (Sorry for crushing your dreams of immortal and virtuous heroes…) — JFG ^talk 23:41, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

Elves don't exist? Surely you jest. Randy Kryn 14:54, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support - much better Norschweden (talk) 01:52, 3 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NATURAL – let's try to be as natural as possible. I support Elves in Fiction. All elves are fictional. But thanks for the chuckle, Randy Kryn. CookieMonster755 𝚨-𝛀 23:34, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

  Thanks CookieMonster755, and please have some more. Yes, Elves in fiction would be a good title, and would solve the concise concern as well. Randy Kryn 23:40, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONCISE Red Slash 20:21, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Elves in non-fiction

I realize this is touching on something that has already been discussed. But with an article about elves in fiction, shouldn't another tell about elves in non-fiction? Certainly a non-fiction work can discuss fictional beings, but as I don't know of a single documented case of a real-life elf.... Alden Loveshade (talk) 21:00, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

That's covered pretty exhaustively at Elf, isn't it? -- Fyrael (talk) 21:54, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks! I do, however, wonder if every reference in that article is to elves that the original writer believed were real beings. Alden Loveshade (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2020 (UTC)

Elves in Warcraft countering the Tolkien tradition?

I agree that the depictions of Night Elves and Blood Elves in Warcraft go against the typical depictions of Light and Dark elves but given that Middle Earth only has Light Elves (plus orcs which are a species of their own in the Warcraft games) can it really be said to be countering the Tolkien tradition? El komodos drago (talk to me) 12:09, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I'd agree that it's not countering, and it's especially weird to have Warcraft listed in two separate sections with somewhat redundant descriptions. -- Fyrael (talk) 03:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Androgynous?

I have never heard of androgynous elves. Should this be here? Sounds like liberal propaganda.188.172.108.164 (talk) 22:01, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

On the other hand, it actually doesn't. -- Fyrael (talk) 02:35, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

You might want to look for statements related to this that were made by J.R.R. Tolkien and others. Or you could look to a just-released supplement called GURPS Fantasy Folk: Elves by a certain Wikipedia editor....

Descriptions of elves have changed tremendously since they were reported in the Royal Prayer Book of the late eighth to early ninth century (not to mention possible earlier sources). Male elves have commonly been depicted looking androgynous, including without facial hair, for quite a while. I will admit, though, the world's most famous elf has a beard--that 'right jolly old elf" Santa Claus. Alden Loveshade (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

A GURPS book about elves

GURPS Fantasy Folk: Elves could be added to the GURPS section. But as I wrote it....could someone else add it to the article?

Here's verification it's a real thing: https://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/elves/ Here's a review of it: https://enragedeggplant.blogspot.com/2021/10/review-gurps-fantasy-folk-elves.html

Note that elves described in detail in the book are Generic Elf, Generic Fantasy Elf, Yrth Elf, Dark Elf (Dungeon Fantasy), Dark Elf (Yrth), Deep Elf, Eldritch Elf, Half-Elf (Dungeon Fantasy), Half-Elf (Yrth), High Elf, Mountain Elf, Sea Elf (Dungeon Fantasy), Sea Elf (Yrth), Shadow Elf, Sky Elf, Winged Elf, Wood Elf. There aer suggestions on how to build more. Alden Loveshade (talk) 22:43, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Repetition

Often elves do not possess facial or body hair, are not portrayed as fat or old, and are consequently perceived to be androgynous

The sentence just quoted is given in its entirety in two distinct sections. If the same information is going to be regurgitated, at least let it vary its text. Nuttyskin (talk) 01:38, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

This seems to be original research or opinion anyway.Halbared (talk) 08:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)