Talk:Efforts to impeach Barack Obama/Archive 3

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Hawkings' Error

I am actually not 100% sure Hawkings made an error, as I have put in this edit. Since Hawkings did not specify January of which year, he could have meant January of 2016, but generally if you don't specify a year then it is inferred to be the immediate January. Hawkings wrote "end of the year", which I think means the end of 2014, the year that the editorial was written, but he may have meant a different year. Any thoughts what we should do here? How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:01, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

What we should do here? Nothing. Hawkings is talking about the plan to sue Obama, so perhaps raise your question on the Talk page of that article? Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Paraphrasing of quotes

This piece by Hawkings is being cited in our article. Hawkings ends the piece by saying:

Complicating matters further, the lawsuit will come more than a year after Obama acted, so a judge may wonder what took an outraged House so long. And the presidential postponement of the employer mandate ends with the end of the year, after which a judge may consider the matter moot. But January is not the month that matters most to Boehner’s team of politically attuned attorneys. November is.

An editor has taken a stab at "paraphrasing" the last two sentences, and placed this interpretation in our article:

He then opined that in passing the resolution to file the lawsuit, the Republicans were motivated by the timing of the 2014 congressional elections, rather than what would happen in January.

That doesn't appear to me to be anywhere near an accurate paraphrase of the source, so I took the simple approach and quoted the last part verbatim. Paraphrasing can be a good thing when done accurately, and without reading extra stuff into it not conveyed by the source. (i.e.; Where does he mention "Republicans" instead of Boehner's attorneys? Where does he say he is talking about "in passing the resolution" instead of the act of suing the President?) Xenophrenic (talk) 08:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

He mentions "Republicans" by saying "Boehner’s team of politically attuned attorneys" who are serving the Republican caucus.

If you wish, you can change "in passing the resolution" to "the act of suing the President" -- I see no distinction between the two.

How hot is the sun? (talk) 21:22, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

OK -- although I still think your point about Hawkings not mentioning "Republicans" is too literal of an interpretation, in order to bring this edit war to a conclusion, I did take out the word "Republicans" from the paraphrase. How hot is the sun? (talk) 00:37, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Also took out the words "passing the resolution". How hot is the sun? (talk) 00:41, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for engaging in discussion on this matter. I've reverted the changes pending the resolution of the above issues. (The revert also undid your second attempt to insert the non-word "pupose", the weird, verb-less "the lawsuit to divert recent Republican calls for impeachment" phrase, a completely unencyclopedic insertion of an editorial note, etc. We can discuss those edits, too, if you wish.)

Let's start with what the source actually said. First, what is your objection to using an exact quote, and thereby avoiding any possibility of misinterpretation? Xenophrenic (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure you are following proper protocol, as I do not remember who reverted whom, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. In any case, since the dispute involves only whether or not to paraphrase the last sentence, I restored all other edits that you have not raised objections, as well as one edit for which the objection was a spelling error (where you made mountain out of a molehill). How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:46, 19 September 2014 (UTC) I'll address the quote later. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:47, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

The proper protocol is to discuss disputed edits until agreement (or consensus, if complete agreement is unatainable) is reached. Also note that reverts of edits and deletion of text are generally considered to be "objection" to that material. If I see a spelling error in a word, I will correct it; if the text (spelled correctly or not) is problematic in other ways, I will remove it pending discussion. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

And now I'll address the quote. The quote "But January is not the month that matters most to Boehner’s team of politically attuned attorneys. November is." Is not encyclopedic. It is written in July of 2014 with the intention that it be read in that timeframe. A reader in 10 years would not be able to understand it as well. Additionally, "Boehner's team of politically attuned attorneys" is ambiguous. Is it the lawyers that the House has retained for the lawsuit? or the Republicans in his caucus that are attorneys by profession? This is why it's better to say that the motivation for the lawsuit is the electinos (what Hawkings calls "November") rather than the longer term viability of the lawsuit (what Hakings calls "January"). --How hot is the sun? (talk) 23:04, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course direct quotes are encyclopedic, so let's look at your other concerns. I agree with you that we should produce content that is equally understandable 10 years from now as it is today. I disagree with you that a reader could in any way confuse "Boehner's team of politically attuned attorneys" with members of the House. As I noted above, I agree that paraphrasing what Hawkings said might generate an improvement, but I still disagree with your interpretation of his last two sentences. Let's see what we can do to improve it. We currently have:

Hawkings has also pointed out that a proposed lawsuit wouldn't come until more than a year after the President acted, and it could be considered moot because the presidential delay of the employer mandate may have already expired. Hawkings concluded, "But January is not the month that matters most to Boehner’s team of politically attuned attorneys. November is."

Through a recent edit (prematurely submitted before concluding this discussion here), you suggested:

Hawkings has also pointed out that a proposed lawsuit wouldn't come until more than a year after the President issued the postponement of the employer mandate, and it could be considered moot because by January the postponement of the employer mandate would come to an end for many employers.[n 1] Hawkings then concluded that the motivation for the lawsuit is the political impact to the 2014 congressional elections, rather than the viability of the lawsuit.

Some observations on your suggested text: 1) Repeating "the postponement of the employer mandate" twice in the same sentence is cumbersome; 2) Inserting the footnote creates a contradiction. Hawkings didn't say the issue could be moot because the postponement would expire for "just some" employers, which your suggested wording seems to say, but doesn't make sense. Also note that Hawkings' assessment was made many months after the postponements described in your WaPo footnote. 3) I partially disagree with your interpretation of what Hawkings sees as "motivation" based on the his last 2 sentences, although your latest interpretation does come closer to what the article as a whole conveys. With that in mind, what are your thoughts on rewording that section like this:

Hawkings noted that the plan for suing Obama sends a "decidedly mixed message" since Republicans themselves previously "passed legislation specifically written to codify the president’s employer mandate delay". He also criticized the move as not likely to have legal standing; wouldn't come until more than a year after the President issued the postponement of the employer mandate; and might be considered moot by then because the postponement may have already expired. With "almost no chance for even a preliminary resolution before the midterm elections", Hawkings has concluded the intent of Republicans is not a successful lawsuit but rather an opportunity for focusing their "red meat rhetoric" and "venting their bloodlust this summer and fall."

Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Your proposed quote is fine with me. How hot is the sun? (talk) 04:10, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Your proposed text if OK, with the exception of the last verbatim quote because "this summer and fall" is not encyclopedic text. How hot is the sun? (talk) 17:39, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Of course direct quotes are encyclopedic. If those words were instead used in Wikipedia's voice, then I would fully agree with you that we could improve that wording -- but it is a direct quote. Given the context conveyed by the sentence (which mentioned the November elections), it is clear to me what Hawkings is saying. Is your concern that it is unclear? Xenophrenic (talk) 20:07, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

"this summer and fall" should not be quoted verbatim because the word "this" is only useful in 2014. The article needs to be relevant in the future. How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

On top of that, "fall" is called "autumn" in much of the English speaking world, and we are a global encyclopaedia. We must cater to the broader audience. HiLo48 (talk) 02:18, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

That's another good point. I have already paraphrased "this summer and fall". How hot is the sun? (talk) 02:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Paraphrasing "this summer and fall" as "before the elections" works; an improvement, actually. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:26, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Since you've started implementing the above discussed changes into the article, I've completed the move of the agreed-upon text. While I was doing so, I noticed (and removed) some stuff, like an attempt to equate different factors with "legal standing" (things that have nothing to do with legal standing), spelling erros and typos, etc. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

You did many things

1. You re-merged the paragraph after I split it into two because it became too large.
2. It is incorrect that I have equate[d] different factors with "legal standing" I just took your long-ass sentence and split into two. For the record, this is what I did. What is the objection to this?
3. Per below, you removed the section heading

How hot is the sun? (talk) 05:45, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect. I did just one thing: I copied the text we agreed upon above, and pasted it into the article. I apologize if that over-wrote other undiscussed changes you made to that text (like the totally incorrect and malformed statement, He also criticized the move as not likely to have legal standing for a couple reason. -- He gave only one reason, and that isn't even in our article). We can discuss them if you'd like. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

It seems that you are denying reality, because that is indeed what you did. Anyway, the article currently tells that Hawkings has two reasons for thinking that the lawsuit lacks standing.

1. it took almost a year to file (your wording is "wouldn't come until more than a year after the President issued the postponement of the employer mandate"
2. by the time it gets filed the postponement will be over (your wording is "the postponement may have already expired")

How hot is the sun? (talk) 17:19, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Incorrect. Hawkings does not give those as reasons why the proposed suit would lack standing, but rather as other issues that may "complicate matters further". Here is Hawkings' stated reason to believe the lawsuit will not have standing:

As a matter of law, it’s not easy to see how the House argues successfully that it has standing to bring such a suit. The general rule in a civil case is that plaintiffs must demonstrate they’ve been tangibly harmed by the other side’s actions, and time after time federal judges have said it’s not sufficient for members to claim a loss of political or institutional clout because a president frustrated the will of Congress.

In a nutshell, demonstrating tangible harm is the basis for establishing standing in a suit. The other stuff regarding timing and delays also make the plaintiffs look bad, and will certainly be considered by a judge, but those aren't reasons given by Hawkings for why he thinks a court will not grant standing. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

I didn't appreciate the difference. I have reworded the article per your clarification (w/o adding your words "make the plaintiffs look bad", as those words would violate WP:NPOV). How hot is the sun? (talk) 04:20, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Your rewording looks good. As for your later edit, I don't think Hawkings meant "filed" when he said "the lawsuit will come more than a year after...", since the initial filing will come before that (or so I have read). Xenophrenic (talk) 07:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

possible alternative to impeachment section

I proposed to put the lawsuit in a section titled "possible alternative to impeachment" but got reverted. What is the objection to this title? I thought that by adding "possible" I took out the NPOV concern. How hot is the sun? (talk) 04:13, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for other editors, but my concerns as outlined in the above discussion remain. Xenophrenic (talk) 05:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

I contend that I have addressed your NPOV concerns with the additional word "Possible". How hot is the sun? (talk) 05:40, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

You must have me confused with another editor. I never raised "what words were used" as a concern. Xenophrenic (talk) 08:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

So what exactly is your concern with the proposed section heading? The above discussion is too scattered to follow. How hot is the sun? (talk) 17:14, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Exactly this. Xenophrenic (talk) 17:22, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

You need to provide a reason you continue to oppose the section heading. I have already stated that your reasoning of WP:STRUCTURE and WP:UNDUE do not apply. Those are subsets of WP:NPOV, which I have attempted to address with the additional word 'Possible'. At the moment, all you are doing is edit warring. How hot is the sun? (talk) 03:58, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

You've started three separate discussions proposing the same thing. I've provided my policy-based reasons, with explanations (nothing to do with wording, by the way), which have remained the same through all three. You've stated that you don't see how the policies apply, so maybe someone else should explain them to you. Xenophrenic (talk) 07:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)