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"Lawsuit in lieu of impeachment" section

The following section was removed from the article:

In July 2014, [[John Boehner]] organized a lawsuit against President Obama for delaying the implementation of the [[Affordable Care Act#Employer mandate and part-time working hours|employer mandate]] of the [[Affordable Care Act]]. Although he did not say that the lawsuit was an alternative to impeachment, it has been speculated by political commentators that this was the strategy. In opining that this was the strategy, observers cited Boehner's experience with the [[impeachment of Bill Clinton]] as well as their belief that on its merits, the lawsuit has many shortcomings.<ref>{{cite news|url=http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2014-07-13/opinion/ct-clarence-page--palin-impeach-obama-oped-0713-jm-20140713_1_president-barack-obama-sarah-palin-impeach-obama|title=Sarah Palin says 'Impeach Obama!' but other Republicans flinch|date=July 13, 2014|work=[[Chicago Tribune]]|section=Editorial}}</ref><ref>{{cite news|title=Boehner’s Bet: Lawsuit Will Quiet Impeachment Calls|url=http://blogs.rollcall.com/hawkings/obama-impeachment-calls-can-lawsuit-quiet-them/|first=David|last=Hawkings|date=July 11, 2014|publisher=[[Politico]]}}</ref>

The removal was on the basis that "the lawsuit was not related to impeachment, Provide a source. The idea that it was an alternative was political rhetoric". This is self-contradictory, as the sources already in the paragraph specifically relate the lawsuit to the prospect of impeachment, and we don't exclude relevant, sourced information based on an editor's OR judgment that it is merely "political rhetoric". The name of the section should probably change to more closely reflect the source, but the paragraph should remain. bd2412 T 17:59, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I undid the removal, as there were two references backing up the paragraph. I'm not sure if there are any problems with the title of the section, but if there are problems with the section title, we can discuss them. How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:00, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I changed the header to "Relationship with House of Representatives lawsuit". bd2412 T 20:13, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the words "Relationship with". If anything it should be "Relationship to", but I think those words are unnecessary. "House of Representatives lawsuit" should be sufficient. How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:22, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
No objection. Cheers! bd2412 T 20:27, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
This is nonsense. A lawsuit is not impeachment. This content does not belong in an article about impeachment. Simple. HiLo48 (talk) 21:02, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Reliable sources have explained a connection between the lawsuit and the potential for impeachment. bd2412 T 21:08, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
What is it? Is it anything more than political opportunism, needed because they know impeachment won't work? HiLo48 (talk) 22:03, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
Irrespective of what the connection is, it has been drawn. If this were an article on efforts to impeach, say, Warren G. Harding, and a lawsuit had been brought against Harding which some pundits asserted was instigated as a substitute for impeachment, we would mention and cite that in the article. This is no different. bd2412 T 22:13, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
If it's a substitute for impeachment, it's not impeachment, so doesn't belong. HiLo48 (talk) 22:58, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
It is a clearly notable event and impeachment is discussed by reliable sources in the context of this event. Can you point me to a policy that supports excluding a discussion of a factor that has been connected to impeachment by RS based on it not being impeachment? bd2412 T 23:24, 25 August 2014 (UTC)
No, but that's a silly question. There is no need for such a policy. It's common sense. It's not impeachment, so it doesn't belong in an article about impeachment. HiLo48 (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
By that logic, we should remove mention of World War I from the article on World War II, since it's not World War II. What would you consider to be the appropriate policy forum to which to bring this disagreement? bd2412 T 00:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't believe that's a valid analogy. And analogies rarely prove anything. I don't care where you take it. It's unlikely to change my mind. Can you come up with a better reason than "it's a substitute for impeachment"? That one actually says we shouldn't include it, because if it's a substitute, it's obviously not impeachment. HiLo48 (talk) 00:59, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I didn't come up with this connection, the sources did. Here are some pertinent quotes from those sources - from the Roll Call piece:
and from the Chicago Tribune piece:
Do these quotes relate to impeachment? bd2412 T 01:14, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand this sudden pickiness about content relevance. The article currently contains absolutely nothing about actual "efforts to impeach Barack Obama" so what difference does one more item thrown on the coatrack make? 2600:1006:B120:5E5F:B945:D20A:9451:85D (talk) 01:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Same questions to you, then. Do the above quotes relate to impeachment or not? If you think not, then what is the appropriate policy forum to which to bring this disagreement? bd2412 T 01:35, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
The title is "Efforts to impeach Barack Obama"—it's not a list of all talking points where the word "impeach" has been used by a commentator. Johnuniq (talk) 01:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes, those quotes tell me clearly that this is an effort to NOT impeach Obama. HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Do they relate to impeachment? Well, since they use the word"impeach", the obvious answer is yes. Similarly, if I get into a discussion with some buddies over a few beers during halftime of a Cowboys game some Sunday, expounding on how Obama should be impeached for all the evil things he's done, that relates to impeachment, and it's as important an "effort to impeach" as anything in this article. Perhaps we could change the title; something like "Bloviation about impeaching Barack Obama" seems about right. 2600:1006:B120:5E5F:B945:D20A:9451:85D (talk) 02:02, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Your Sunday night bloviation is not notably reported in reliable sources, which is the standard for inclusion of content in Wikipedia. This is not a discussion about whether this article should exist. If you doubt that, Articles for Deletion is right this way. The standards for inclusion in an article are obviously much lower, since not every fact worth mentioning in an article must be suitable for having its own article. bd2412 T 02:23, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Nobody (just now) has said the article shouldn't exist. What several of us seem to be saying is that the content of the article needs to be relevant to the subject of the article. Which reliable source identified the lawsuit as an effort to impeach? For that matter, which reliable sources identified which of the incidents currently in the article as efforts to impeach? 2600:1006:B120:5E5F:B945:D20A:9451:85D (talk) 02:40, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

You're going to need to clear an awful lot of stuff out of an awful lot of articles applying that standard. For example, Super Bowl XLI mentions that it was a rainy day, but no reliable source describes the rain as being the Super Bowl, so that would need to go. It seems that our articles contain a great deal of information about events other than the event itself, to provide context for the event. We even have articles like Super Bowl LII, discussing a Super Bowl not scheduled to happen for three more years. In our article on Bids for the 2020 Summer Olympics, we even discuss such tertiary things as countries that planned to bid for the Olympics but did not end up bidding on them. It therefore seems pretty well established that events that relate to a potential future event, and provide context to it, should be included in articles even if those related events are not "the event" and event if "the event" itself may well never come about. bd2412 T 02:54, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
I think it's time to drop these rather strained analogies. They are so unrelated to the situation under discussion they don't help at all. HiLo48 (talk) 03:06, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Since there is very little traffic here, I have raised the issue at Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Relationship between Efforts to impeach Barack Obama and United States House of Representatives v. Obama, which I believe to be the most appropriate noticeboard for this dispute. Please feel free to weigh in there. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

A brief mention that some discussion of a potential impeachment was deflected by the lawsuit vote would be in order, with a link to the article about the lawsuit for further information. (To compound the strained analogies, if there were an article about proposals to impeach Judge X and then Judge X died or resigned, we would mention the death or resignation in the article; we wouldn't say "but death/resignation isn't impeachment.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 09:24, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Is the current mention brief enough? bd2412 T 13:26, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
If by "current" you mean that text at the top of this section that was earlier removed from the article, it's too much, and runs close to breaching our rules with "it has been speculated". We discourage speculation by our own editors. Reporting so vaguely on speculation by others isn't much better. It all reads like the kinds of words tabloid journalists would use to fill column inches. We have a higher goal. HiLo48 (talk) 21:39, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Our highest goal is to provide complete information. By "current" I mean the text that existed in the article at the time that I asked the question (the usual meaning of the word "current"), which I would contend constitutes a brief mention, as contemplated by Newyorkbrad. Other editors have since revised the text. bd2412 T 21:55, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
No, we don't aim to provide "complete" information. Our article's have practical size limits. And we don't include tangential stuff. HiLo48 (talk) 04:33, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
We don't hide the ball, either, when there is information available that is helpful to understanding the context of a topic. Also, I think we are still safe from running up against any practical size limits for this particular article. Cheers! bd2412 T 14:15, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your latter point, but I will also refute any silly argument that I see. The real question, given that the law suit is not impeachment, is how many other things that are not impeachment would you want included? HiLo48 (talk) 21:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
This article should generally include those things that fall within Newyorkbrad's formulation above, of things discussed (by reliable sources, of course) within the context of affecting potential impeachment. bd2412 T 21:18, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
Too vague. We need something far clearer. This is explicitly about something that isn't impeachment. It doesn't belong in an article about impeachment. HiLo48 (talk) 21:56, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
You are welcome to propose a policy basis for that and seek to gain consensus for it. As far as I have seen, three editors here have expressed the belief that some mention of the lawsuit vote is permissible for the article. I would point out that Newyorkbrad has been on Arbcom for years, so he probably has an excellent grasp of what is and is not permitted or appropriate. Of course, with my nine years on the project and 748,000 Wikimedia-wide edits, I would also credit myself with a grasp of those matters. bd2412 T 22:16, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
There is no need for policy here. It's common sense, especially in a controversial political area. We cannot let any crap that isn't explicitly covered by the article topic appear here, otherwise the article just becomes a coat rack for any complaints about Obama. I already think the Palin nonsense doesn't belong. Why not create a new article - Efforts to sue Barack Obama? HiLo48 (talk) 22:28, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
At this point, I think we're really talking past each other. You are welcome to your opinion, but please, step away from the horse. bd2412 T 22:54, 27 August 2014 (UTC)
LOL. And you think that is an effective discussion technique? Sad. HiLo48 (talk) 01:24, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
I see no point in continuing to entertain this discussion. bd2412 T 01:40, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
Good. Using longevity as a reason why you are right won't ever cut it with me. HiLo48 (talk) 02:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Placing lawsuit in its own section

An editor has now twice removed the section heading from the lawsuit in order to mix it up into the public debate section. The pretext give the first time was "remove billboarding", and the second time was purportedly because "a lawsuit doesn't even exist yet" (even though a vote was taken and money is already spent for a lawsuit). Given that there is no WP:BILLBOARD policy, the question is: does anybody else believe that the lawsuit belongs under the public debate section? or is this editor trying to impose a non-existent WP:BILLBOARD policy? How hot is the sun? (talk) 23:45, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Yes, there is Wikipedia policy against billboarding content in articles by giving it its own section or own header or special highlighting, etc. You'll find it in our pillar policy on NPOV editing, where structure is explained ("Pay attention to headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements that might unduly favor one point of view...") and undue weight is explained ("Undue weight can be given in several ways, including ... prominence of placement..."). Xenophrenic (talk) 20:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • You have failed (actually never even attempted) to demonstrate that placing the lawsuit in its own section heading somehow places and undue weight and/or pushes some point of view. Citing policies is inadaquate. You have to demonstrate that the policies are violated. How hot is the sun? (talk) 00:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Incorrect. I'm not the person attempting to give "debate over impeachment" content its own section and header. Xenophrenic (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
As the person removing content you are responsible for demonstrating why the content that you want to remove violates Wikipedia policies. Throwing policies around doesn't cut it. You throw around WP:NPOV but you don't even attempt to demonstrate how placing the paragraph about the lawsuit in its own section violates WP:NPOV. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:20, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
But I didn't remove any content (although others editors have expressed the opinion that such content doesn't belong in this article). I merely undid your attempt to take a portion of existing content and highlight it under its own section with its own header. Another editor also opined that the content about a proposed lawsuit does not "merit a section of its own." Are you asking to have Wikipedia policy explained to you regarding how positioning and presentation of content can affect NPOV? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
The text about the lawsuit still doesn't even belong in the article, let alone deserve it's own heading. There was no consensus in the previous thread. The lawsuit is explicitly NOT an effort to impeach the President. It therefore doesn't belong in an article headed "Efforts to impeach..." The heading you are attempting to add simply highlights the fact that it doesn't belong. It could belong in its own article. Why don't you try that approach instead of cluttering up this article? HiLo48 (talk) 00:24, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
You lost me with your argument.
  1. There is an article about the lawsuit.
  2. You may not be happy about the outcome of the discussion in the thread above, but the discussion very clearly states that secondary independent references have made the connection between the lawsuit and the efforts to impeach, so there is every reason to place the lawsuit in the article. The only question that remains is whether it is part of the public debate.
How hot is the sun? (talk) 01:09, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Apologies. I didn't realise the other article already existed. Thanks for educating me. It will make an ideal entry in the See also section of this article. As for the discussion above, there was no consensus to include this content. HiLo48 (talk) 02:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with How hot is the sun? that it is very clearly stated in the discussion above that the connection has been made between the lawsuit and impeachment efforts. I would not have a separate section on the lawsuit, since I do think that the comments drawing this connection are part of the public debate. Boehner himself has not said that the lawsuit is intended to stave off impeachment; that has been proposed by the experts following the situation, some partisan, some not. bd2412 T 02:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Can you clarify "I would not have a separate section on the lawsuit, since I do think that the comments drawing this connection are part of the public debate." Seems to be a contradiction. How hot is the sun? (talk) 03:08, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I mean that I would include discussion of the lawsuit in the article, but not in its own section. bd2412 T 03:35, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure there is a length criteria for section heading (note that the December 2013 section is far smaller than the paragraph on the lawsuit). Section headings should be driven by content, not length, and when I read the last paragraph it seems to be different from the other paragraphs in the public debate section, so it should be separated. Additionally, a separate headings allows having the {{main}} template. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:18, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Which "lawsuit"? Did you mean the "proposed lawsuit"? Until a lawsuit actually exists, content conveying that the proposed lawsuit is being used to quiet calls for impeachment is nothing more than another argument made in the public debate over impeachment -- and we have a section and header for that already. Should such a lawsuit should ever get filed in a court of law (you know, with an official docket name, etc.), then I may find agreement with How hot is the sun that the matter should be separated -- but at that time, it would probably deserve its own article. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Why doesn't someone just start a separate article on it? A lawsuit might be briefly mentioned here but it is not equivalent to impeachment - no lawsuit can remove a president from office. The worst that could happen would be a legal injunction against an executive order. Hardly the same penalty as removal. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:20, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
An article about the lawsuit already exists. The lawsuit is explicitly introduced as a substitute for impeachment. How hot is the sun? (talk) 03:27, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
That's right. It's not impeachment. This article is about impeachment. The lawsuit doesn't belong. Mention the article on the lawsuit in the See also section, and leave it at that. HiLo48 (talk) 04:29, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Just because it's related doesn't mean that it only belongs in the "See also" section. The relationship can be detailed in the article. I did add a {{main}} template, because it seems that more than one person missed the link to the lawsuit article that already exists. How hot is the sun? (talk) 12:36, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Just so that we are all on the same page, and working from facts instead of misperceptions, a few clarifications should be made:

  • it is very clearly stated in the discussion above that the connection has been made between the lawsuit and impeachment efforts

That is not correct. What was clearly stated is that 2 opinion pieces speculated that Boehner proposed going with a lawsuit as an alternative to the politically suicidal step of trying to impeach. It was also clearly stated that neither the "lawsuit" nor an "effort to impeach" exist at this time; just a lot of political rhetoric and "debate". Also clearly stated above is that "the content of the article needs to be relevant to the subject of the article" -- something that still hasn't been fixed.

  • there is every reason to place the lawsuit in the article

No; unless 1) an actual lawsuit exists (it doesn't yet), and 2) the lawsuit is detailed in reliable sources (not opinion pieces) as explicitly supplanting an existing impeachment effort (such an effort doesn't exist yet).

  • You may not be happy about the outcome of the discussion in the thread above...

What "outcome" is that again, and where (be specific) is that outcome detailed? I don't see it. I do, however, see where the discussion was carried to a noticeboard for further discussion, but 100% of the respondees say to wait until there is an actual effort to impeach.

  • a vote was taken and money is already spent for a lawsuit

Not. A House Resolution was passed by a party-line vote, which is hardly more than political rhetoric -- like the votes to commend NASA for their Mars Rover; to upgrade the toilet paper in chamber restrooms from 1-ply to 2-ply; to create a National Pi Day, etc. As for "money already spent", I've seen nothing on that.

Is there any objection to nominating this "Efforts" article, and the "lawsuit" article, for deletion until there are actual efforts and lawsuits? I mean Wikipedia policy-based objections, not the usual ones. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:23, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, money has been spent. See referene listed in the lawsuit article. As for you devaluing the meaning of the vote, that's your opinion. The fact is that based on the vote, the Congress is already spending money in preparation for a lawsuit. How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:56, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I have no opinions regarding this matter; I rely soley on what reliable sources say. That's how I avoid making mistakes like "money has been spent" (no, a contract has been entered .. not a penny has been spent yet) or "you devalue the meaning of the vote" (no, the reliable sources say the vote was meaningless grandstanding, and the real test is whether a lawsuit ever gets taken up by a court of law). Xenophrenic (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
In the context of whether an official action has been taken, a contract is an official action. How hot is the sun? (talk) 23:41, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
Further to the above, the vote to authorize the lawsuit has itself been widely reported as an event of historic significance. If the courts either take up the lawsuit or refuse to take up the lawsuit, that will be a precedent of substantial importance to the constitutional balance of powers. The parties driving the lawsuit might abandon the effort, but I am not aware of any statement to that effect having been made, so like any future event, we can look only to what has been done with respect to it, not what might happen in an unanticipated future. bd2412 T 23:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
@How hot is the sun: I never mentioned "official action". I simply corrected your misstatement that "money has been spent". Do you wish to engage on what is or is not an "official action" now? Xenophrenic (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid the truth is not on your side Xenophrenic mentions "official action". How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:09, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Please read more carefully. Notice the quotation marks? I was quoting you; you mentioned "official action", not me. Let me know if there is any further confusion. (And you didn't answer my question.) Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Nice attempt at a rationalization, but by quoting me, you were saying that a vote is not an official action, so I reject your rationalization. How hot is the sun? (talk) 21:33, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Incorrect. I never mentioned "official action", that was you, and I certainly never compared a "vote" with an "official action". I simply corrected your misstatement that "money has been spent". Let me know if there is any further confusion. Xenophrenic (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
@BD2412: Checking the reference you've linked, it does not state anything has been "widely reported". Is that a personal conclusion? It does mention that the possible lawsuit would be the first House v. President case, but it is also careful to note that the lawsuit doesn't exist yet, still has to be worded and crafted, then has to achieve "standing", then needs to be accepted by a court, etc. Would you have any objection to renaming the article after the House resolution? Xenophrenic (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The articles that we do have that are named after House resolutions should be moved to shorter concise titles. As for the historic nature of the lawsuit being "widely" reported, it has been reported as being historic in Time, Newsweek, the New York Times, LA Times, National Journal, PBS, and many other sources at that level. I have included links and quotes from two three of these in that article. bd2412 T 19:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Any discussions about the article name for the lawsuit article should be done in the talk page of that article. Not here. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

There is as much reason to keep this as to keep Statehood movement in Puerto Rico - another subject area where a vote by Congress is necessary to effect the outcome desired by proponents, but where the topic is notable and verifiable even if no congressional action ever takes place. We have articles on purely political House resolutions if they are notable - United States resolution on Armenian Genocide (proposed, not even passed); Attempted impeachment of Dick Cheney (focusing on a resolution that was proposed in the House and tabled); Urging the Government of Burma to end the persecution of the Rohingya people and respect internationally recognized human rights for all ethnic and religious minority groups within Burma (H.Res. 418; 113th Congress); Calling on Attorney General Eric H. Holder, Jr., to appoint a special counsel to investigate the targeting of conservative nonprofit groups by the Internal Revenue Service (H.Res. 565; 113th Congress). Our criteria for notability does not hinge on political action coming in some binding form or succeeding in achieving its stated goals. It hinges on the action being important enough to garner independent coverage in reliable sources. I would add that plenty of additional sources are available for the connection made by pundits and experts in the field between the lawsuit and the impeachment effort. We are not required to list every source supporting a point, just a source (ideally the best source) for that point. bd2412 T 20:43, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion sounds very wise to me. It would reduce the chances of Wikipedia looking like a tool of the Tea Party too. That is not a comment on whether the "must get rid of Obama at any cost" crowd is right or not. We must not look like a tool of ANY political group, especially one from just one country. BD2412 - will you please stop trying to convince us that there is a connection. Even if there is (and I suspect there is), it still doesn't belong in this article. So stop wasting electrons on that claim. HiLo48 (talk) 20:49, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
I am not "trying to convince" you that there is a connection, I am documenting the reports of a connection in verifiable reliable sources. To be clear, even if it were to turn out that there is no connection, the belief that there is one has been widely reported, and is as notable as the widely reported belief that there was a boy being carried by that balloon. However, if you want to nominate these articles for deletion, by all means, I'm as curious to see how that turns out as you are. bd2412 T 21:02, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
If I understand BD2412's reasoning above, based on his examples, we should rename the "lawsuit" article to H. Res. 676 or the long title Providing for authority to initiate litigation for actions by the President or other executive branch officials inconsistent with their duties under the Constitution of the United States. (H.R.676). Also, this mis-named "Efforts" article should be renamed Republican calls to impeach Barack Obama. At least that would address the above complaint that the content doesn't match the article subject name. I disagree with the assertion that "There is as much reason to keep this as to keep Statehood movement in Puerto Rico". That article details numerous resolutions (compared to none to impeach) and referendums (compared to none to impeach) and advocacy organizations campaigning for action (compared to just Republicans in U.S. politics ...the usual). Perhaps you could come up with a stronger argument? Xenophrenic (talk) 22:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
All the argument that is needed is that the effort has been verifiably reported in reliable sources (per Wikipedia:Notability (events)). We don't disregard those merely for the expedient of avoiding the inclusion of politically charged matters. If you think the article should be deleted, nominate it for deletion. If you think it should be moved, file a move request (although, for the record, I have filed a request to move the monstrously long-titled "Urging the Government of Burma" resolution to a shorter title). Discussion outside of these processes will not effect these ends. bd2412 T 23:18, 15 September 2014 (UTC)
  • All the argument that is needed is that the effort has been verifiably reported in reliable sources..."
Exactly; but that argument has not yet been made. We don't have any reliably sourced efforts to impeach. So we are in agreement. As you suggest, I'll work on a deletion proposal. Xenophrenic (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Xenophrenic, although it is good to strictly follow Wikipedia policies, I think your problem is that you take words too literally. Every member of congress who speaks in favor of impeachment is putting forth an effort - however minimal - towards impeachment. Although it is true that speaking in favor of impeachment in and of itself won't bring about impeachment, it does exert an effort towards impeachment. It should be pretty clear that members of congress who speak in favor of impeachment are not doing so because they want to exercise their vocal cords. If you think I'm full of shit, go ahead and nominate the article for deletion. I doubt that it won't survive and AfD. How hot is the sun? (talk) 04:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I am pleased that we agree it is good to follow Wikipedia policy. I'm not going to touch your comment which begins "I think your problem is..." Moving on, I disagree with your opinion that every utterance about impeachment equates to "an effort" towards impeachment. It's simply routine political rhetoric and grandstanding exercised by both political parties under every president. That is vastly different from "Efforts" as conveyed in the title of this article. In fact, even party line votes (like the one to authorize litigation) don't always indicate agreement with, much less "an effort" toward, a course of action. (See page 10, first paragraph here for one reason why.) Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm terribly sorry you feel that me pointing out what I think is your problem constitutes a personal attack, but (no pun intended), that's your problem. I'm not taking back my comment. How hot is the sun? (talk) 21:25, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Apology accepted. Regarding the rest of my comment, we have reached agreement? Xenophrenic (talk) 19:25, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
This is all heading way off the topic, which is whether the lawsuit deserves it's own section. I still take the position that not only does it not deserve its own section, it doesn't belong in THIS article about impeachment attempts, because it's not an impeachment attempt. Yes, it may be related, but that doesn't change what I just wrote. Mention it in the See also section, and that's enough. HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Then why do you think it should be mentioned in the See also section? bd2412 T 00:23, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Because many people believe there is a connection. So a pointer to the other article makes sense. HiLo48 (talk) 00:32, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
You have just undermined your own logic -- you recognize there is a connection, but it is YOUR opinion that the connection is only as strong as a mention in the "See Also". The problem, of course, is that your opinion is just that -- an opinion. When secondary reliable sources make the connection, then it is justified to make the connection in the article. How hot is the sun? (talk) 00:38, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Why? In what way is a See also mention not enough? HiLo48 (talk) 00:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I'll assume good faith, and explain to you the obvious: A mention in a "see also" section puts no perspective on why the lawsuit is related to the efforts to impeach and it would have no references. Since Wikipeidia is not censored, there is no reason to supress the relationship. How hot is the sun? (talk) 00:58, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The other article provides the perspective. A reader will know that it's relevant in some way, because we don't put irrelevant links in the See also section. HiLo48 (talk) 01:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I wasn't going to comment, but misuse of WP:NOTCENSORED needs to be resisted. The article is about efforts to impeach Obama—it is not efforts by senior Republicans to deflect clueless members of their party from undertaking a process which would probably backfire. Pointing out that a "see also' is the appropriate way to handle such a case is editorial judgment and is nothing to do with censorship. Johnuniq (talk) 01:41, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps I'm wrong, but to me deliberately trying to supress information is censorship. I cannot see how it would improve the article to put a link to the lawsuit w/o giving the context that the lawsuit is seen as an attempt by Boehner to be a substitute for impeachment. How hot is the sun? (talk) 01:52, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
This isn't censorship. I have no objection to the content being on Wikipedia at all. (Well, I do think it's all a bit silly.) So long as it's where it should be. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
Suppose we were to mention the conclusion drawn by pundits and experts that the lawsuit is intended to substitute for impeachment without mentioning the lawsuit itself? bd2412 T 01:45, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
No need. Holding a demo outside the White House with placards about birth certificates is an alternative too, but we won't include that. HiLo48 (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
It might bear mentioning that while Boehner has recently assumed ownership of the "lawsuit" idea, and a couple pundits say he may personally hope it will divert some of the crazies away from the impeachment meme, the litigation angle predates Boehner involvement. Its origins have nothing to do with Republican calls for impeachment. Xenophrenic (talk) 07:26, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
The fact that the lawsuit predates Boehner's involvment is detailed in the lawsuit article, and is beyond the scope of this article. This article just makes the point that in lieu of impeachment Boehner is going with the lawsuit. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:27, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
More specifically, it makes the point that 2 individuals are of the opinion that Boehner hopes that proposing litigation will divert the calls for impeachment. I don't recall Boehner, himself, actually saying that is his reasoning. Is there something in print somewhere where Boehner makes the "lawsuit in lieu of impeachment" rationale? Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
We are not reporting that Boehner is making a "lawsuit in lieu of impeachment" rationale. We are reporting the analysis of political experts. Do you have any reason to believe that the credentials of Clarence Page of the Chicago Tribune, David Hawkings of Politico, or for that matter Jennifer Rubin of the Washington Post (addressing the claim "that the lawsuit over Obama’s unilateral executive actions — designed to serve as a mild substitute for impeachment — actually means impeachment is in the offing"), or Francine Kiefer of the Christian Science Monitor ("3 reasons John Boehner opted to sue Obama rather than impeach")? bd2412 T 18:25, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I think your question got chopped off: Do I have any reason to believe that the credentials of Page, Hawkings, Rubin or Kiefer ... what, exactly? My question above was: Has Boehner said (in print or on video) he's proposing to sue instead of impeach, or is that just the speculation of political observers like the ones you have mentioned? Xenophrenic (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I think I meant "reason to doubt". Of course Boehner has not said that the lawsuit is a substitute for impeachment. If you find any place in the article where it says that Boehner has actually said such a thing, please feel free to replace it immediately with the verifiable statements of the aforementioned reliable sources. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
Apparently, we (you, BD2412 and I) have agreed on that all along: Our article is not making the point that Boehner is going with a lawsuit in lieu of impeachment. Our article is instead saying that observers (the ones you named), not Boehner, has made that conjecture. So we agree. My disagreement before you commented was with another editor's statement: "This article just makes the point that in lieu of impeachment Boehner is going with the lawsuit", which it does not. Xenophrenic (talk) 02:46, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Excellent - if you find yourself agreeing with me, it means you're right! bd2412 T 03:12, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Interesting -- so the objection all along was on the definiteness of the statement "lawsuit in lieu of impeachment"? While a section heading of "Pundits believe a lawsuit was filed in lieu of impeachment" is unecessarily cumbersome, how about "Lawsuit in lieu of impeachment?" with the question mark emphasizing that it's not necessarily a fact? How hot is the sun? (talk) 20:21, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
No, the objection was to the statement "This article just makes the point that in lieu of impeachment Boehner is going with the lawsuit", which it does not. And should not. As for the other matter regarding separating certain "Public debate over impeachment" content into its own section and header, I've already commented on that above. Xenophrenic (talk) 20:28, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Placing lawsuit in its own section #2

I'm starting a new thread because the previous thread turned in the a free-for-all. The only arguments I received against placing the lawsuit in its own section were unspecified WP:NPOV concerns, and concerns about the length of the paragraph on the lawsuit (too short). While I cannot rebut unspecified WP:NPOV concerns (the concerns can be detailed in this thread), I did expand the material on the lawsuit to take care of the length concern. How hot is the sun? (talk) 04:46, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

The concerns are indeed outlined in the above section. Xenophrenic (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't see how the proposed section heading would violate WP:STRUCTURE which requires that "headers, footnotes, or other formatting elements [not] unduly favor one point of view". There is no other point of view to present, as there is currently no analysis out there saying that the lawsuit is not a substitute for impeachment or that the two are unrelated.
As for WP:UNDUE, I don't see how it even applies to inclusion or exclusion of section headings.
How hot is the sun? (talk) 21:31, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
Although I think that it should be mentioned that the commentators believe the lawsuit to be a diversion from impeachment, I really don't think that anything more than that should be said about the lawsuit in this article. The vote count, for example, is irrelevant. bd2412 T 19:22, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
Since there is a separate article about the lawsuit, I agree that details about the lawsuit belong in the lawsuit article and in this article the lawsuit should only be mentioned as it relates to impeachment. I added the vote count only because it's a short sentence, and I thought it would be of value. I'll remove it. How hot is the sun? (talk) 19:54, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
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