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Obamacare, the ATF gunwalking scandal, drone attacks in Pakistan, and the 2013 IRS scandal

All of these have been asserted by politicians and/or commentators as bases for impeachment, but I am taking them out of the article until I have time to search for sources for each one. Cheers! bd2412 T 22:16, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

FALSE, all of these topics have A LOT more credibility and references and trueness than most of the false junk on the GWB impeachment article.

Weekly World News

I had previously added the following to the article:


It was removed on the grounds that the Weekly World News in notoriously unreliable as a source. However, my intention was not to show that such an event was being reliably reported, but that it was and is part of the popular cultural conversation. I think we all understand that the Weekly World News is borderline farcical, but it is indisputably well known and widely distributed. I would propose that this content should be included in the article, even if only as an example of parody. bd2412 T 15:23, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Keep it out. The point of Wikipedia is to report on what is verifiable and of some import. What the Weekly World News reports on is neither. Tedperl (talk) 23:33, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Created

I have created this page in conformance with the similar creation of Efforts to impeach George W. Bush. bd2412 T 20:09, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

Why is there so much content on the George W Bush impeachment page, yet the Obama impeachment page refuses any new information. The IRS scandal is HUGE, so is operation Fast & Furious, as well as the AP scandal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.179.235 (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

POV concerns

To me, this article appears to be focused on listing efforts to impeach Obama, but it fails to discuss the likelihood, which is virtually nil. The reader should not be led falsely into believing that impeachment proceedings are likely. Various observers have commented in the media that an attempt at impeachment would certainly fail, and that in any case a successful impeachment would not solve the various perceived problems with the presidency—it would only put Biden in charge, who is expected to continue Obama's policies. Another problem with initiating impeachment proceedings is that whoever backs impeachment will be faced with accusations of racism. Rush Limbaugh says impeachment will not happen because of the fear of being accused of racism.[1] Fox's Brit Hume says it is "stupid" to try and impeach Obama.[2] The article should identify the fact that impeachment activism is mostly a fringe reaction.[3] Binksternet (talk) 22:59, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I have no problem with that, so long as this identification of the position as a "fringe reaction" is sourced. I have no interest in promoting a point of view on this topic. My only intention is to document its existence. bd2412 T 23:21, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

There is actually an article about Efforts to impeach George W. Bush, but that didn't really happen (impeachment). This is not POV, if it is then the G.W. Bush impeachment article is biased as well. -- Billybob2002 (talk) 19:35, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Pointing to another article does not affect what is under discussion in this article. The one you point to has the same flaws—it should tell the reader what the likelihood was at various points in Bush's career. Binksternet (talk) 20:02, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
Politics is not a science. Determining the likelihood of a political event like the outcome of an election, a policy fight, or a potential impeachment, has always been a matter of reading tea leaves and roughly aggregating poll numbers. As I said before, if there are reliable sources which say that impeachment is a fringe position, and is unlikely to occur, we should definitely report those findings and reference those sources. However, the fact that a well documented position is considered to be a fringe position does not prevent us from reporting that the position itself exists, nor from documenting the views of notable persons who adhere to those positions. bd2412 T 20:34, 2 June 2013 (UTC)
This article was said to have been created "in conformance with the similar creation of Efforts to impeach George W. Bush". I've compared the two articles, and one striking difference is apparent -- this article is full of people "saying" / "stating" / "declaring" that Obama should be impeached, while the Bush article describes actual "Efforts to impeach" Bush. "Efforts", as the title suggests, don't exist in this article. The closest thing to an effort thus far is a Resolution (107) introduced to have Congress "say" the president committed an impeachable offense, but it doesn't make an effort to have him impeached. This article, as named, is premature. Rename it to "People saying impeach Barack Obama", or IMO, get rid of it until there are actual efforts. Xenophrenic (talk) 06:33, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
The article currently titled "Efforts to impeach George W. Bush" was originally created on May 9, 2005, under the title "Impeach Bush campaign", long before any resolutions were made. It survived numerous efforts at deletion (I opposed deleting the article on the basis that it documented a notable social phenomenon), and was moved to "Movement to impeach George W. Bush" before ending at its current title. Some of the external links on this page mock the tendency of detractors to call for impeachment at the first hint of something being out of joint, but this by itself documents a notable phenomenon, whatever the title. bd2412 T 12:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Why is wikipedia so left-leaning? The Fast & Furious scandal, IRS scandal, and AP scandal are all major factors in the topic of the president's likely impeachment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.41.179.235 (talk) 02:33, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not a matter of being "left"-leaning - if it was, this article wouldn't exist at all. This is an article on "Efforts to impeach" for which we need evidence that someone is actually trying to bring about impeachment, not just saying that it would be a good idea - preferably someone in a position to actually bring articles of impeachment (i.e., a U.S. Congressman), who considers some specifically articulated transgression to be worthy of impeachment. Is there a source for a person or a group actually trying to bring about an impeachment due to anything other then the intervention in Libya or the subsequent Benghazi scandal? bd2412 T 02:49, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Why does Wikepedia use the word "alleged" concerning the Bengazi cover-up, when we know now that they the White House did cover up the truth, and told the American people that it was because of a video.

Unfairness In Wikipedia

The George W Bush impeachment article is LOADED with unreferenced, untrue claims, yet wiki users have a problem with TRUE and REFERENCED claims about the current president's impeachment article.

This talk page isn't for discussion about the George W. Bush impeachment article. If you have an issue with claims in that article, discuss them on that talk page. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:54, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

ATF gunwalking scandal material

The following material has been added by an anonymous editor, and has since been removed from the article by multiple editors:


The same anonymous editor has repeatedly removed the following section:


Let's discuss the merits of these sections and develop a community consensus about their inclusion in this article. bd2412 T 01:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, let's start with the sourcing. The Tucson Citizen claims to be a collection of personal blogs with no editorial controls - ergo, it does not meet reliable sourcing standards. I have no problem with removing the second section, because it's sourced only to a primary source - the anonymous online petition - which does not seem to make it encyclopedically notable. If there are reliable secondary sources commenting on the existence of that petition, it might be proper to include. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
The statements in the first section are completely out of compliance with standards of NPOV, BLP, RS and just about everything else. They state partisan opinions as factual truth, which is unacceptable. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 02:56, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Just looking at the sources provided: petition2congress.com is not a reliable source. As NorthBySouthBaranof says, you need a reliable source for that. The Bloomberg BusinessWeek source doesn't discuss impeachment efforts at all. The TusconCitizen link is a blog post from Bob Quasius, Sr. aka. "Arizona Lincoln Republicans" (strapline: "Returning the Arizona GOP to the party of Lincoln"). That's not a "news source" as the disputed text alleges, it's a blog post by a Republican activist. If there are "dozens" of news sources, it should surely be possible to find one that isn't this. And then there's YouTube. The YouTube clip is irrelevant to the discussion of impeachment of Obama. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:07, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

August 2013: Tom Coburn

I added the following to the article:

August 2013: Tom Coburn

In August 2013, Republican Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma responded to a questioner in a town hall meeting, who had asserted that President Obama was failing to carry out his constitutional responsibilities, by saying that "you have to establish the criteria that would qualify for proceedings against the president... and that's called impeachment".[1] Coburn added, "I don't have the legal background to know if that rises to 'high crimes and misdemeanors', but I think you're getting perilously close".[1] Coburn did not specify what grounds he felt would support impeachment, but NBC News noted that Coburn "mentioned that he believes Department of Homeland Security officials have told career USCIS employees to 'ignore' background checks for immigrants".[1]

  1. ^ a b c Carrie Dann, "Coburn raises possibility of impeachment at town hall", NBC News (August 22, 2013).

This addition was subsequently removed with the edit summary "non-notable". Unless someone is prepared to come forward with evidence that a statement by a sitting United States Senator that the President of the United States is "getting perilously close" to impeachment is non-notable, I intend to put it back in. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:16, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, firstly, that's hardly a realistic approach to discussion. Secondly, it's not notable that a Republican Senator wants to get rid of a Democrat President. And he clearly stated that he didn't know enough of the legal situation to be sure. This article is called Efforts to impeach Barack Obama. This is not an effort. It's pure politics. He was preaching to the audience. He wasn't trying to get Obama impeached. I predict it will go not further. If it does, then we might have something we can call an effort. Right now all we have is a political speech. HiLo48 (talk) 04:01, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I have reverted you because your definition of "efforts" is original research. Every entry in this article is just a political speech, because there have been no articles of impeachment actually introduced against this president. If your definition of "efforts" for this article requires something more than a speech, then you should put it up for deletion with that rationale. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
LOL. Maybe I should. The article is nothing more than a coat-rack upon which editors can hang their incredibly predictable complaints about Obama. Do you really think it's a good Wikipedia article? Convince me that it's anything more than political point scoring by bad faith editors who would oppose any Democrat President. HiLo48 (talk) 04:34, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
I'm not exactly anywhere near the right side of the political spectrum. I'm not sure this article is a good idea, either. (Though from another perspective, it could be viewed as a place where it is demonstrated just how absurd, unfounded and ideologically-driven any attempts at impeachment on the given grounds would be.) I'm just saying that if we're going to get rid of one piece of the article for a given reason that applies to the entire article, we really ought to be thinking about getting rid of the article entirely. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:50, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
Until there are any REAL attempts to impeach Obama, I would support that. HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
You guys are repeating the exact argument I made several sections up, under the header POV concerns. Perhaps the article should be nominated for deletion. Regards, Xenophrenic (talk) 02:03, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
These exact arguments were also made years ago with respect to Efforts to impeach George W. Bush. Ultimately, of course, that article was kept, because the topic of efforts to impeach the President of the United States is notable, whether those efforts originate in Congress or in citizen groups, and whether those efforts ever lead to anything being put on the floor in Congress. bd2412 T 03:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
I would argue that none of the described events were efforts to impeach Obama. They were political speeches by his opponents telling us how bad Obama is. None of the speakers, not even in their wildest dreams, would have imagined that their speeches could lead to an impeachment. Every one of them could be paraphrased thus: "Look, he's so bad he should be impeached." Nothing wrong with them saying that. It's democracy at work. But they weren't EFFORTS to impeach him. So yes, this article SHOULD be deleted. HiLo48 (talk) 04:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
That is still no different than the argument made with respect to the Bush article, for most of its existence - it was around long before anything was actually brought up in Congress (it was initially titled Movement to impeach George W. Bush, and went through some title changes before landing at its current location). bd2412 T 04:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
So what? Please respond to my argument. Don't just tell me where else it was used. (I assume you're aware of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS.) HiLo48 (talk) 04:20, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The President of the United States is always (for the foreseeable future, at least) going to be one of the most notable figures in the world - so much so that we have articles on the president's dog, and even the president's brand new dog, not to mention conspiracy theories about the president's citizenship and the president's religion, and on individual speeches made by the president. We have these articles because they are notable enough to be reported in reliable sources. Now, every item on this page is a comment from the public sphere that mainstream, well-regarded reliable sources found sufficiently important to publish news stories about each of them. We can quibble about the title, but not about the notability of senators, congressmen, and other notable figures being reliably reported as calling for the removal of a president through the mechanism provided in the Constitution for this. bd2412 T 15:07, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

But we've agreed that they're not really even calling for his impeachment. Just taking an opportunity to criticise the President These speeches have nothing to do with impeachment, apart from use of the word. We are giving them too much credence and standing. Show me a real effort at impeachment, and I'll agree to an article on it. HiLo48 (talk) 21:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
First, I don't think we have agreed to that; there are certainly some who are calling for actual impeachment, and would like to file articles of impeachment in the House if the House leadership would permit it. Second, you are again basically quibbling about the title. If this article were titled "calls for impeachment", there would be no question that the material on the page was germane. bd2412 T 22:37, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Such an article would be non-notable, and therefore non-existent. HiLo48 (talk) 07:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
That is entirely a matter of opinion, and one that seems not to recognize the consistent reporting of these kinds of statements in the mainstream media. The same could probably be said of Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories, which largely amount to the same kinds of media-reported comments. bd2412 T 13:17, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Yes. Also nonsense. I don't know why we give those nutters air. HiLo48 (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Presumably because we recognize the notability of things that are widely reported in the media. bd2412 T 22:05, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I allege alleged allegations

This edit changed "alleged" to "said", based on WP:ALLEGED. As it happens, that policy was against using "alleged" as an adjective to express doubt. This is very different from using it as a verb for stating allegations, so policy does not support the change. MilesMoney (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

To avoid having to jump back and forth, the pertinent section states:

Words such as supposed, apparent and purported can imply that a given point is inaccurate. Alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people charged with crimes; when these are used, ensure that the source of the accusation is clear. So-called can mean commonly named, falsely named, or contentiously named, and it can be difficult to tell these apart. Simply called is preferable for the first meaning; detailed and attributed explanations are preferable for the others.

In the context of the sentence, "During the presidency of Barack Obama, several commentators and Republican politicians have __________ that Obama has committed impeachable offenses", there are a wide variety of verbs that could fill in the blank reflecting various degrees of bias. Obviously, if we put "imagined" or "ranted" there, it would be biased in one way, and if we put "pointed out" or "explained" there, it would be biased in the opposite way. "Alleged" is technically correct, but also is used to describe of a person who has been formally charged with a crime, but for whom a determination of guilt has not yet been made. I propose, as a neutral alternative which does not carry any such connotations, we use that most magically neutral of words, asserted. bd2412 T 20:32, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
In Australia and England at least we have the terrific word "whinge". It has a sense of "persistent, pointless complaining by poor losers". Most of the mentions of impeachment by the current mob are precisely that. They are not real proposals for an impeachment case. Their ONLY point is maybe keeping less smart constituents happy because they "seem" to be doing something, and perhaps making themselves feel better. At no point must we give the impression in this article that these allegations/assertations/statements actually mean anything more than that. If a real proposal arises, different language would be used. HiLo48 (talk) 21:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Whether they are or are not "whinging", it is not our job to characterize them as such. We merely report that such statements have been made. Undoubtedly, equally reliable sources can be found that opine that the allegations are baseless and purely political and so forth, and these can also be added to the article. bd2412 T 21:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
But I would argue that the word "asserted" is not at all neutral. It has connotations of strength and certainty. There is no certainty at all in most of the impeachment statements. They ARE purely political. That's fine, because this IS politics. It's all part of the big game being played. But we must not imply that the claims carry any strength or certainty. If we cannot use "whinge", stick to the definitely neutral "said". HiLo48 (talk) 21:33, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
I rewrote the lede to avoid these issues. Because not all of the statements actually claim/assert/allege that any sort of offense was committed at all (c.f. the claim that he should be impeached for "pushing his agenda") we can merely state that certain Members of Congress have proposed that Obama be impeached. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Various rationales have been given. Some allege no offense, and some allege offenses (albeit with varying degrees of vagueness). I don't think it is improvement to imply that no offense has been alleged by anyone. bd2412 T 22:51, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
This is the lede, and the lede sentence at that. The particular complications of,each statement can be explained further on in the lede or in the body of the article. The lede sentence should succinctly state the uncontroversial facts: Republican Members of Congress have stated that Obama should be impeached and removed from office. Otherwise the first sentence is going to be 80 words long. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 22:56, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Sarah Palin

Although Palin is not in Congress, she is a high profile figure who is highly influential within the Republican Party. I think her statements are relevant to this article. Obviously, they would be more so if they were referenced by members of Congress who are in a position to move forward impeachment efforts. bd2412 T 18:48, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Then we need to rewrite the lede of the article and create a separate section. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:52, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
I propose, then, to append the lede sentence to read:

During the presidency of Barack Obama, several Republican congressmembers, and other public figures and political organizations with significant influence in the Republican Party, have stated that Obama should be impeached and removed from office.

Although only members of Congress can vote, it is relevant when a public figure calls for such an action, and this is reported in the media, because the ones with the power may be persuaded that way. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
From my perspective as someone not involved in US politics at all, because I'm not American, it's quite irrelevant whenever ANY Republican calls for Obama's impeachment. It's obvious that that's just what they do. The thing that really would be noteworthy is if no Republicans called for Obama's impeachment. Democrats probably do the same when a Republican is in power. Palin is just making political noises that will likely have no real impact. If ever they do have an impact, we can report it then. And I suspect you plan to "amend" rather than "append" the lead. But I suggest you don't. HiLo48 (talk) 01:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Append means to add to, amend means to change; since I'm only proposing to add text, that is appending. It's also amending, but amending would be more appropriate if I was also removing something. Whether or not "that's just what they do", it's significant enough that every major media outlet reports it as news. I would also like to add a reference in the article to this analysis by Ezra Klein, proposing that House Speaker Boehner's lawsuit against Obama is an effort to let off political steam and avoid impeachment. bd2412 T 02:12, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
That's an interesting situation, but this article should not add something that is not an effort to impeach Obama. Re the Palin edit (diff), per NOTNEWS an article like this is not an up-to-date and exhaustive listing of people who have said they intend to impeach Obama. The politicians are doing what politicians do, and in a couple of months it will be clear if there is an effort to impeach Obama, or whether it is just part of the daily news cycle. Johnuniq (talk) 02:39, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
What you're proposing would turn this article into a litany of zany fringe conspiracy theories. Obama should be impeached because he's behind the Muslim Brotherhood caliphate, etc. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:25, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Are there a "litany of zany fringe conspiracy theories" that are reliably sourced? Surely there's some line that we can draw to remain reasonably informative while distinguishing the comments of a former U.S. vice-presidential nominee, a former congressman, or a state-level branch of a national political party, from a fringe group. bd2412 T 19:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Beyond this narrow topic I often have little edit skirmishes with obsessed, fringe view editors who use the argument "It's sourced, therefore it should go in" to justify adding irrelevant content to articles. So yes, a litany. HiLo48 (talk) 20:04, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
That sounds like a reason to have standards for inclusion, not for the exclusion of a clearly highly notable person making a widely reported statement that they would be working towards the end discussed in the article. bd2412 T 21:46, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
Then this article needs to be renamed "Times notable people have said Barack Obama should be impeached." Because Sarah Palin can't make an effort to impeach Barack Obama. Of course, if we had an article by that name its absurdity would be clear. We don't have an article called "Times notable people have said George Bush is an idiot" because that would be nonsense. A political pundit who hasn't held elective office in five years saying something on a TV interview is not "an effort to impeach," it's political theatre. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 21:59, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
And bd2412, we do, naturally, "have standards for inclusion". They include relevance, which Palin's comments clearly fail to satisfy. HiLo48 (talk) 08:20, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

I happen to have been the person that first added such infomation, and I tried to keep the neutrality of this page since I am personally neutral on the issue. I do agree that yes it may just be all 'part of the daily News cycle' but still these people have come out publicly in their own statements calling for his impeachment. I think its quite releveant for every prominent person or group that calls for his impeachment or at least speculates it to be featured on this page (or to be merged with a seperate one like it), and the above example would not be allowed since it's a not from a reputable/reliable source. It stands to reason that we should bring back the old edits that includes the noted Sarah Palin, Allen West, the South Dakota Republican Party, and Andrew C. McCarthy. It also appears that this article problem ensued after someone initially deleted what I had wrote, and someone had tried to re-word the Sarah Palin part, but sadly failed to do so. I would refer everyone to the last revision before these changes were made: 06:24, 12 July 2014 or to at least my last revision: 17:56, 11 July 2014 I please ask that somehow this infomation would be available again for those who are interested in this topic, and for those who are curious about the news reports about polticians like Palin calling for President Obama to be impeached. Note: In relation to the person who said 'a book is not an effort for impeachment', I believe it absolutely is since it lays out the arguement to readers that Obama should be impeached. The film 2016: Obama's America may have been critical of him, but it cannot be listed here since it did not directly call for his impeachment if he were to be elected again. --Riadse96 (talk) 19:06, 13 July 2014 (UTC)

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