Talk:David Campbell Memorial

References...

Pdxdon:As recently as 2023, the Portland City government was referring to it as the Portland Firefighters Park. (https://www.portland.gov/fire/news/2023/6/23/2023-david-campbell-memorial-ceremony ). Some of the references that I have seen have talked about the David Campbell Memorial at the Portland Firefighters Park. (https://www.kptv.com/2023/09/08/memorial-fallen-portland-firefighters-severely-vandalized/).Naraht (talk) 22:58, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Because some call it that does not make it so. Contact Portland Parks and Recreation and ask them if it is an official park. As we've worked on our development project, ownership of the space was vital to move forward. It is under the jurisdiction of PBOT, who has given a Stewardship Agreement to the DCMA and Portland Firefighters Association to represent the space during the city permitting processes. Parks abstained from any involvement or ownership. I know this because it has been my work for the past three years. Pdxdon (talk) 23:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

See WP:COMMONNAME, if it is most common for people to call it something, then that is normally what Wikipedia uses. For example, the correct name of the Statue of Liberty is "Liberty enlightening the World". In general, Wikipedia uses the name that the media would use. And the fact it isn't an official park probably belongs as part of the article. If things were large enough, it might make sense to separate the Land from the Memorial, but not in this case.

In addition, the list of firefighters commemorated there probably does belong in the article, there certainly is a reference (https://placespages.blogspot.com/2015/08/portland-places-portland-firefighters.html ), but I'm sure you have the first names of the fire fighters. So it might contain something like

• John Devaney commemorated as J. L. DEVANEY or even as a table.

(and 35 more)

Naraht (talk) 23:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I have all the information. I've written the history of Portland Fire (check the two references from my modification of the post). There is no more extensive history than what I have put together, guaranteed. I can assure you, and please do as I suggested and check with Portland Parks and Recreation, it is not a city park. The David Campbell Memorial is not a city park, the reference to a park was for the grassy area, which was put together by the Portland Jr. Chamber of Commerce in 1963, but it is not the David Campbell Memorial. They are two separate things within a triangle of right of way. I'm spearheading an effort to blend those two spaces together and it all began with establishing "actual" ownership of the space because of historic confusion. The research is there, published on the internet, and valid. Before you suggest that a erroneous naming convention and a tv reporter are more accurate than research, check it out. I did the recent story with Blair Best and I can assure you, it was never referenced as Portland Firefighter Park by me, the subject matter expert she interviewed in the segment. TV reporters are rather notorious for confusing facts. As a PIO for Portland Fire and Rescue for 21 years, I say that with great certainty too. So I'm not sure what you need to be convinced that I might know the historic details of this space. Please let me know. Pdxdon (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

A few notes, we are all volunteers. I'm 3000 miles away (US east coast), and an editor from Hong Kong would be equally able to edit this. Your references are to a self-published blog, and as such a primary source, having gone through no reviews. Where you got your information, for example from newspapers or Department of Transportation documents would be appropriate as references.

You keep mentioning that it isn't a city park, I'm wondering why that is such a significant piece of your argument. I'm perfectly willing to change if any of the secondary references support the ODOT control. I look forward to your reference. (from ODOTm I presume)

As for the interviews, since they *are* a valid secondary source, what was said on there, would be a valid secondary source. Additionally, please see WP:COI. Your situation is an absolute conflict of interest and as such you shouldn't be editing the page at all, but rather making proposals on the talk page for the articles proposing changes. That is one of the more significant rules in Wikipedia. Also, WP:OWN. It may seem paradoxical that those with the most connection are those least appropriate to write or update an article, but they are necessary to keep a WP:Neutral Point of View, for example, the government of Uruguay very definitely aren't the right people to control the article Uruguay.Naraht (talk) 18:46, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

PBOT isn't ODOT, very different. This tells me you're aren't considering my background, research, and position on this. I'm tired of arguing and I don't really know how to convince you when you've obviously decided you know it all. Good luck with that. Pdxdon (talk) 19:35, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that I don't know it all about the David Campbell Memorial or the Portland Firefighters Park. However, I do know the rules in regards to editing Wikipedia that apply to *every* article. The Portland Fire and Rescue doesn't own it and Wikipedia almost never verifies *who* a person is in regards to articles (Sometimes, in regards to articles about a specific person, there are methods if *that* person wants something taken down.) You have access to references which could be used, I hope you can reach the point of using them in the manner that Wikipedia requires. I hope you do decide to continue under those rules.Naraht (talk) 23:12, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Let me throw you and easy one. The David Campbell Memorial and what is adjacent, the thiing you want to call Portland Firefighter Park is not at SW. 19th Avenue and West Burnside Street, as you have posted. This is someone's approximation. Source..."Map." Any map. Daniel Lownsdale's platting map from the mid 1800s. A map from 1900. A map from the day David Campbell died in 1911, a map from 1928 when the memorial was dedicated. A map from today. A gas station map, a google map, any map. I don't know how you source a geographic reality. Yes, some people simple reference the nearest major intersection. That doesn't make it right or historically accurate. Why "1864 SW Alder?" Because that's the address and physical reality. In laymans terms, that means the face is on Alder (which it is) and it is about 2/3 of the way, from east to west, between 18th and 19th, a typically numbering convention used in cities across the country. Why did it get 1864? because it is on the south side of Alder (even numbered addresses on the south and east sides of Portland streets, odd numbers on the north and west). And...1864 is the year David Campbell was born. Why don't people know that? They don't bother to look, but also there is no posting of it because there is no front door. Find a city park in Portland, or anywhere, that has a posted address. It won't be found. The renovation of this site will, because the address number is part of the significance of the story, the story I'm trying to share. But some of these things are simply facts, not some opinion I'm trying to promote. So maybe that will prompt something to be fixed. And keep in mind, I don't own any of this. I'm not Portland Fire & Rescue. I've simply researched the history of the organization in a way that no other person is known to have done (if they have, they've never shared it in any way). Much of their 171 year story was lost or mired in dust filled rooms with little hope of ever being known. Much of it is institutional knowledge within the organization, which I worked for for 27 years. So there is information that only those knowing of the organizational knowledge could have access to. It's not stories or conjecture, it's historic facts that have not been academically published. These things are real. Some facts I tried to share come from meeting minutes of the David Campbell Memorial Association. How can those be referenced when they don't have public access? I began this whole thing not because I wanted to write the story in yet another way, it was because there were so many inaccuracies. Simple things like the location/address. Why a photo of the David Campbell Memorial when the page is titled Portland Firefighters Park? The page clearly has errors that are obvious. How does one cite that the picture is of the wrong thing for the topic? I'll check out your conflict of interest rules (I'm not the organization) and your neutral point of view (which is what my research represents) to see where those fall, but this has become a lot of work to try and set the record straight from erroneous information that likely wasn't checked, someone simply knew how to bend to your rules and cite anything, likely without verifying its accuracy. That's how time messes things up, the continuation of poor research or facts. Pdxdon (talk) 13:51, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

A few responses, though some have been overtaken by the changes and renaming of the article.

• I can't find any online mention of 1864 Alder online, but I'd love to find such a map, are they available through the Portland Libraries or elsewhere? I guess my question is "Why 1864 Alder rather than 1866 Alder?", and how do we find a reference so that there is backing for 1864. https://heritagedata.prd.state.or.us/historic/index.cfm?do=v.dsp_siteSummary&resultDisplay=50242 , which I intend to add a *lot* from says 1800 W. Burnside.
• If they are in the Minutes, that probably could be referenced. I'm unclear whether it would count as a primary source or secondary, but worth trying.
• I'm confused between your statement above "I'm not Portland Fire & Rescue" with "As a PIO for Portland Fire and Rescue for 21 years".
• Essentially, Wikipedia would want where your research is from that can be documented.

Take a look at the changes and let me know.Naraht (talk) 03:05, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Article title

After looking into this a bit more, I'd be in favor of moving the page to David Campbell Memorial. While sometimes referred to as a park, the area does not appear to be administered by Portland Parks & Recreation, and the memorial is what has been added to the National Register of Historic Places. There are also sources like this that refer to the memorial without calling it a park. I will go ahead and move the page if there is no objection. Pinging Naraht and Another Believer in case they would like to comment. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 21:49, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't know enough about the topic to have a strong opinion. Following a quick Google search:

• Portland Tribune: "Fallen Portland firefighters will be honored at the 111th annual David Campbell Memorial ceremony Monday, June 27. Portland Fire and Rescue will hold the ceremony at Portland Firefighters Park between Southwest 18th and 19th avenues, south of Alder Street... The Campbell Memorial has added the names of all Portland firefighters who subsequently have died in the line of duty while protecting life and property in the city of Portland."
• Oregon Encyclopedia: " His love of historic preservation put him at odds with those who supported eliminating structures to make way for automobiles, and his efforts helped save some of Portland icons from destruction, including the Benson Bubblers, the Pittock Mansion, the sternwheeler Portland, Skidmore Fountain, and Portland Firefighters Park."
• City of Portland: "David Campbell Memorial within Portland Firefighters Park on W. Burnside."
• KGW: David Campbell Memorial
• The Oregonian: Does not mention "park"
• The Oregonian: David Campbell Memorial

It seems David Campbell Memorial is used more often, so if we're to have one article covering the park and the memorial, we should probably move the page to David Campbell Memorial. Would be nice to see this article expanded! Hopefully collecting these sources helps. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:01, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for these sources! It's pretty evenly split, but it does seem like the memorial is mentioned more often. It also seems a bit misleading to refer to the area as a park if it's not administered by PP&R. I'll go ahead and move the page, but I'm happy to discuss further if there's any objection. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 22:15, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Lord Bolingbroke Would you be ok with the following opening sentence? The David Campbell Memorial, installed in an area known as Portland Firefighters Park, is a firefighting memorial in Portland, Oregon, United States. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:31, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Another Believer: Good suggestion, I think that's a more accurate way to phrase it. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 22:42, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:47, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

PS: I also got the ball rolling at Firefighting in Oregon ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:05, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

More thoughts: If the page is moved, we should add Template:Public art in Portland, Oregon, Category:Outdoor sculptures in Portland, Oregon, Category:Beaux-Arts architecture in Oregon (source) and Category:Sculptures of men in Oregon, and have Description and History sections. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:16, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done ---Another Believer _(Talk) 22:34, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Motherlode sources

I'm going to see how much I can pull from https://heritagedata.prd.state.or.us/historic/index.cfm?do=v.dsp_siteSummary&resultDisplay=50242 and the NR nomination PDF accessed there for the Article. (not quite sure how to cite the contents of the download PDFs).Naraht (talk) 02:56, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

@Naraht: Thanks for this link. A quick note on the address: the document lists the address as 1800 W Burnside St, but in the desciption section it notes that the memorial is "bordered by Alder Street, Southwest 19th Avenue, and a strip of park alongside Southwest 18th Avenue". I personally don't think it's necessary to inlcude a full street address since the precise location is already given by the coordinates; however, if editors decide that more specificity is needed, then "SW 19th Ave & SW Alder St" would be much more accurate. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 03:20, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, Pdxdon indicates the address is 1864 Adler St. I'm quite open to the discussion, and I agree that completely dropping it is an option.Naraht (talk) 03:34, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

There's really no need to be more specific in the infobox. The coordinates provide the precise location, and the streets surrounding the memorial can be described in the article body. Lord Bolingbroke (talk) 03:36, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

List of Plaques.

I've added the List of Plaques from the NHRP application (one of the Motherlodes above), but I'm quite willing to discuss any of the three options, keep, collapse or drop. At least the last one (most recent death) is mentioned by name in the interview in the News Story, I believe.Naraht (talk) 03:37, 29 December 2024 (UTC)