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Talk:Dave Stewart (musician, born 1950)

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The article reads more like a review of Stewart's career then an objective view over his work. It is actually an interesting read, but it doesn't fit in an encyclopedia I think. - Velour 04:31, 28 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's incomplete.. When I've finished it it will be more encyclopaedic (Nighttripper 16:21, 20 February 2006 (UTC))[reply]

It was almost all POV. I've removed most of the bio. Chiok 14:17, 23 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've re-written the bio and removed the POV tag. Bondegezou 10:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've added Khan to the discography

Does he play trombone? I ask because a David Stewart plays trombone on Michael Nyman's The Cook, the Thief, His Wife & Her Lover, or is this yet another British musician like David A. Stewart, only not notable enough to have his own Wikipedia article? --Scottandrewhutchins (talk) 00:23, 22 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 April 2024

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move Dave Stewart (keyboardist) and David Stewart (songwriter and producer), but no consensus on where to move them to; I'm closing this for the original proposal as WP:NOGOODOPTIONS; any editor who disagrees with the choice of disambiguation may open a new move request at any time.

No consensus on Dave Stewart (Eurythmics) (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 12:26, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

– Both of these titles are ambiguous with Dave Stewart (Eurythmics). Don't like the proposed title for the second case but I'm unable to come up with anything else. This was originally brought up on WP:DISCORD. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The third page, Dave Stewart (Eurythmics), was added by – robertsky (talk) for further consideration at 16:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Relisting comment: Reopened the discussion due to a related request at RM/TR. – robertsky (talk) 16:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc., @Btspurplegalaxy, @Doomsdayer520, @Pppery, @Ortizesp, @Necrothesp: I have reopened the discussion in light of another request at RM/TR. – robertsky (talk) 16:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Eurthymics dab move was suggested by Btspurplegalaxy in the RM/TR discussion.
The Dynamite dab move was suggested by me in the RM/TR discussion, upon further search on Google, with rationale as follows: possible to slide this under WP:ABOUTSELF: David Stewart (English producer, born 1989)? He had been wishing himself happy birthday on his social 32 in 2021, and 33 in 2022 around December each year, and his sister had referred to him has her older brother by five years in various interviews in 2022 and in 2017. She's born in Jan 1995, while if his socials are right, Dec 1989. While we tend to go by calendar year for age calculation, their natural age difference is 5 years and 1-2 months apart. Anecdotally, I have known of Dec-Jan siblings counting it this way as well..
However, Pppery felt that the rationale is a bit too OR-y.
Per David Stewart (footballer, born 1869) and some other examples at the David Stewart disambig page, I believe the next option here would be David Stewart (producer, born XXXX). Unfortunately his year of birth is not given in the article (or in his father's article) and I can't find it in any reliable source. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend updating the reference to Dave Stewart (Eurythmics) to either Dave Stewart (English musician, born 1952) or simply Dave Stewart (musician, born 1952). This ensures clear disambiguation, as Dave Stewart's birthdate cannot be verified, leaving only the producer disambiguation. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 14:34, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Btspurplegalaxy, @Doomsdayer520: possible to slide this under WP:ABOUTSELF: David Stewart (English producer, born 1989)? He had been wishing himself happy birthday on his social 32 in 2021, and 33 in 2022 around December each year, and his sister had referred to him has her older brother by five years in various interviews in 2022 and in 2017. She's born in Jan 1995, while if his socials are right, Dec 1989. While we tend to go by calendar year for age calculation, their natural age difference is 5 years and 1-2 months apart. Anecdotally, I have known of Dec-Jan siblings counting it this way as well. – robertsky (talk) 16:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 17:44, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This feels a bit too OR-y for my taste. And in any event as the current title resulted from a seven-day move discussion any new moves would need one as well. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Robertsky: It seems that there is some debate about this, and the closure of the RM[1] may have been premature. I urge you to consider undoing the close and relisting. 162 etc. (talk) 18:37, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc. different pair of articles though? – robertsky (talk) 18:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No it isn't? 162 etc. (talk) 18:51, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@162 etc. hmm... upon relooking at the RM, I will have it reopened later, and include this. – robertsky (talk) 12:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Collapsed above was the discussion at RM/TR, copied here for our benefit to follow the conversation. – robertsky (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the record I am fine with the move of Dave Stewart (Eurythmics), except I don't think "English" is necessary, and Dave Stewart (musician, born 1952) would suffice. But see Talk:Dave Stewart (Eurythmics)#Requested move 30 October 2023. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:40, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery, I am aware of the Oct 2023 discussion, having just manually dropped the the banner and talk page message there. As such I invite the participants from there as well: @Hameltion, @BarrelProof, @JSFarman, @Amakuru, @HorrorLover555.
On the dab, how about (musician, born 1950), (music producer, born 1989), and (musician, born 1952) for consideration instead? – robertsky (talk) 16:56, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Pppery, to continue the RM/TR discussion, on the birth year of the Dynamite producer, although it may feel OR-y (of which I agree, it was a hard one hour of trying to find direct secondary sources, but all I found were these (linked above)), there is some allowance as routine calculation provided that there's a consensus on this. As such, opening this up as a point for discussion. – robertsky (talk) 16:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move David Stewart (songwriter and producer) → David Stewart (Dynamite producer), but oppose the other two. As I said at the previous discussion, using year of birth should only be a last resort of nothing better is available. Disambiguators are supposed to be recognizable to readers when they see them, and it's unlikely people would know whether someone was born in 1950 or 1952. The Eurythmics title was reached by consensus and no need to touch it. And as for the keyboardist case, we are comparing someone who is exclusively a keyboardist and strongly known for that, versus the Eurythmics guy who was mainly a singer or guitarist and only occasionally played the keyboard as a side line. Finally, strong oppose using original research to guess at a birth year that isn't cited on sources. There are far better Disambiguators available and that's a borderline BLP violation.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:37, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Amakuru, re original research to guess at a birth year that isn't cited on sources, I'll note that DOB/year calculations (if the math isn't disputed) are not OR, and the sources are the producer's posts themselves. For what it's worth, the other two DOBs could also use citations at the moment. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 16:48, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict) Thanks for the ping. In all cases, year of birth is less likely to be helpful to searchers than a more descriptive modifier, per WP:NCPDAB, and I see no reason to desire consistency. I strongly urge us to keep "Eurythmics" in the title of the Eurythmics Stewart, since that's the primary way he is known, as I outlined in the Oct 2023 discussion. (Dave Stewart (Eurythmics musician), which attracted almost equal support in that discussion, appears to conform better to WP:NCPDAB than the version without "musician".) Keyboardist Stewart also seems to be at an acceptable title: it appears to be his primary identification (e.g., [2] [3]), and I can find no source ever labeling either other musician as a keyboardist, only a user of synthesizers (consider it a WP:PDAB; a hatnote would suffice). The last is more difficult; the best title would be David Stewart (record producer) if only the other musicians weren't also fairly accomplished producers; the BTS song might be due for the title but is just such an unconventional approach. I agree with Robert that the birth year is an acceptable routine calculation, not OR. In summary:
If we must move Dave Stewart (keyboardist), something like Dave Stewart (keyboardist, born 1950) would be better than flattening the label to musician, which would hurt navigation. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 18:10, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fine with Dave Stewart (keyboardist, born 1950) instead of Dave Stewart (musician, born 1950). If I remember correctly my thinking on the keyboardist one was based on keyboards being listed in the instruments section of the infobox for Dave Stewart (Eurythmics), which would make him a keyboardist - I generally try very hard to avoid disambiguators that can reasonably refer to more than one person. * Pppery * it has begun... 18:24, 23 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Much simpler, given none of them exclusively does one thing. I don't see the need for nationality (they're all English) or anything else. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:44, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support the Above - Such a long and in-depth discussion indicates that there may not be a definitive solution that satisfies everyone, and most of the folks here have raised valid policy concerns. But we have to do something regardless. I think the above proposal by Necrothesp succeeds due to its simplicity. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 13:54, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll state my oppose to the all-year proposal directly. WP:NCPDAB is clear that years of birth are less helpful to readers, who are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it, when other specific qualifiers are available (note that still I support including the year for the 1989 one). It's especially unclear why Doomsdayer520's statement that we have to do something would apply to the clearly unambiguous Eurythmic's title. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 16:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I meant was that we have to do something about the currently unsatisfactory disambiguation in the article title for the producer born in 1989, which is where this whole mess started. That in turn raises difficulties with the article title for Dave of the Eurythmics and whether his nation and/or birth year are appropriate. It appears that some participants here have forgotten this distinction when arguing about intricate policy details that might lead to article titles that are even more awkward. Less bureacracy, more simplicity. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 19:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm going to restate my position more clearly, since the length of this discussion has made it unclear:
"Dave Stewart (keyboardist)" should be moved to some other title because it's ambiguous. I personally don't think "English " in the disambiguation is necessary since all four musicians with this name (these three plus Dave Stewart (trombonist)) could reasonably be called English, but if that's what consensus agrees to I guess I could accept it.
"David Stewart (songwriter and producer)" should be moved to some other title because it's awkward and ambiguous. I don't think it should be moved to anything with (born 1989) because the DOB feels like original research (but see Talk:David Stewart (songwriter and producer)#Year of birth), and again don't think English is necessary in the name for the same reason as above. This would leave only (Dynamite producer) as an acceptable title, which admittedly isn't great.
I oppose any move of Dave Stewart (Eurythmics), since I'm not seeing the problem with that title that requires it be moved. The primary topic argument blindlynx made above is interesting, but given that there are almost 40 people with this name I'm far from convinced its justified. * Pppery * it has begun... 16:32, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He's not exclusively known for the Eurythmics...--Ortizesp (talk) 19:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support this alternative.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:16, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support David Stewart (songwriter and producer) → David Stewart (Dynamite producer)
Opposing the first two moves because the current titles are better at disambiguating than the proposed moves, which only disambiguate by birth year. Also, their birth years are very close together and aren't a commonly used way of differentiating them. WP:NCPDAB is clear that disambiguation for people with the same name and tag qualifier, such as musician, need more specific qualifiers, and that date of birth is not normally used. IndigoBeach (talk) 11:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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