Talk:Characters of Persona 5

Protagonist name

@Mirrorthesoul: There are multiple, conflicting names for the Protagonist. It's that simple. It's also sourced that his name in other media is Akira, and can be easily sourced that his only name in the origin work (aka the most important one) is Joker. Now, is it possible that in the future, Atlus figures out a "canon" name and pushes it really hard? Maybe, who knows. But it isn't true yet. (For an example, see something like FF7 Aeris -> Aerith, where Square pushed the name change really hard and it was switched in all subsequent media, which there is a lot of, and had multiple interviews where they announced and confirmed the new official name.) Also, the P3 Protagonist is an interesting pick, since that also has multiple names and a gender-swapped version, and is at Protagonist_(Persona_3). (Please don't take this as an invitation to change that, too, there was a requested move on it that already failed.) SnowFire (talk) 04:40, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

@SnowFire: How is there multiple conflicting names? Joker is his code name. Akira is the name that's only in the manga that's based on the game. Atlus hasn't made an official confirmation with that name. Now, for Ren Amamiya. That name is appearing in all sorts of media (official anime website, official website for Dancing Star Night, magazines, Persona O.A, which is the Persona 5 app) since the live stream announcement for the anime. So that's canon. Atlus has officially said something. They didn't confirm anything when it came to Akira. It was more of a temporary name. There's always a temporary name before Atlus nakes an official announcement. There's a difference between that. And for as the P3 Progtagonist, it should be changed to Makoto just as all sorts of media confirmed Yu's name for Persona 4. I think it's fair because those characters belong to Altus, they're the one who's said something.

Yes, but for the third time, they are saying mutually contradictory things. He 100% confirmably does not have a canon name in Persona 5 itself (other than "Joker" which yes, is a code name), aka what this article is about. For side media, I certainly don't want to hype up Akira as a "canon" name either, but do you have any reliable sources that Akira was a "temporary name"? If you do, you might have a case, but the manga wasn't just a tiny side project, it's a solid source. More generally, I don't see the harm here for using the correct-to-original-source unnamed Protagonist; both Akira and Ren can be prominently mentioned, and it is perfectly correct to refer to them as the protagonist or as Joker as well.

Atlus, you might note, also made P5, and very intentionally made it a game where there was no "default" name, you are supposed to make your own protagonist. This obviously doesn't fly in an anime or in successor material, but I'd argue that to the extent we want to respect Atlus's wishes, that means prominently displaying that Atlus intentionally had no canon name whatsoever on the release of P5. SnowFire (talk) 05:26, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Obviously, I know they just call him Hero/Protagonist. However, every game uses that name. But how can you keep calling each main-controlling character protagonist? Why do you think they decided to give each protagonist a name (Makoto/Yu/Ren)? Why isn't successor material canon enough? It's still a part of the series. Look at Yu's page. Despite the many "successor materials", Wikipedia still decided to keep the page with the canon name Altus has given him and not the manga. Just saying that it's not enough is ridiculous. I mean, the character hasn't changed. It's still the same person, however, it seems more real and character enough when he has a name and personality. Mirrorthesoul (talk) 09:53, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the concern here is accuracy to what reliable sources use, not what "seems real". That's "how we can keep" doing that. A pretty huge majority of content written about P5 still just uses "Joker" because it was made before these new names even existed. That said, don't worry; in side media where Joker DOES have a name, it is perfectly correct to use "Ren" in the Persona Q2 article or the Dancing games, just as this article uses the original P5 game's terminology. Another example: Devil Survivor 2 correctly says the Protagonist, because there's no name there; Devil Survivor 2: The Animation uses Hibiki Kuze, because that's the name used there. SnowFire (talk) 15:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Potential FL

Hi all,

I recently asked for a copy edit of the page, which Miniapolis did a great job in noting all the jargon. I'm hoping I've removed a lot of this. Would anyone be interested in a potential Featured List nomination? Even after a copyedit, the article would need a thourough going over. I'm familiar with the WP:GA process, but not so much for lists. Would this be a suitible end goal? Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:29, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

There is no way this currently passes a nomination. Too much WP:GAMECRUFT detail, and the sourcing needs to be improved as the majority of it just comes from game reviews, not character analysis/discussions. Other than that, I don't really take part in nominations so I'm unsure of any other guidelines it should align to. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:20, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

Japanese names

I noticed that a lot of Japanese text is being removed from the article and deemed as WP:FANCRUFT (i.e. things like the "Phantom Thieves of Hearts", etc.). @Dissident93: can you explain why they should be removed in this edit (https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=List_of_Persona_5_characters&oldid=864370322)? Personally, I think it's better to leave them in the article, at least in footnotes, because the game is originally in Japanese and there may be things lost in translation. Also, the Phantom Thieves' team name in both the game (as default) and the anime are "The Phantoms", which I definitely do not think should be removed. lullabying (talk) 17:24, 8 November 2018 (UTC)

• We should only be using the Japanese names of the characters. Including them for every single in-game proper noun is way too excessive and does not help anything. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 01:29, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

@Dissident93: Can you explain why it's excessive and how it doesn't contribute? Also, why are we omitting the Phantom Thieves' group name, The Phantoms? As stated, it as used both in the game as the default choice and the anime also uses that name. lullabying (talk) 02:48, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

It's a bit suprising that there is a difference between names of characters, and a name of a group of characters... Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:54, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

Because this is an English encyclopedia, and having the Japanese name for every single proper noun in the game is excessive and does not help anybody except maybe zealous Japanophiles. And I'm not sure what you mean by the Phantom's name? The Phantoms is literally just the shortened form of the The Phantom Thieves (of Hearts), so I don't see why this is an issue. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:54, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Right, but this is also a Japanese game with a Japanese setting. Also, by the Phantom Thieves' name, I mean their group name. After defeating the first Palace, you got to give your group a name where it would show up on the PlayStation Network. The default name and the one used in the anime is The Phantoms (ザ・ファントム, Za Fantomu). It is a separate name from The Phantom Thieves of Hearts (心の怪盗団, kokoro no kaitōdan) and even has a different pronunciation. lullabying (talk) 08:16, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

The argument could be exactly the same for why we include the Japanese names of the characters themselves. To me that seems equally frivolous. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:26, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: I'm not quite sure what you mean. The Japanese names of the characters themselves are important because their names can be written in multiple ways in Japanese. But anyways, I don't understand why we're not including the default name of the Phantom Thieves. The default name of the Phantom Thieves was also used in the anime and is separate from the general term used to reference them. lullabying (talk) 05:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Lullabying - That's exactly what I meant. Surely as proper nouns, the group name is as important as the character names. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:11, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@Lee Vilenski: Thank you for clarifying. I think we're in consensus that we should include the Phantom Thieves' group name. Do you think we should include the Japanese names for them too? lullabying (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I still don't think so. We should only include Japanese for Japanese names, not ones that have been officially localized back into English (or else we would have Japanese for numerous nouns that are mentioned in the list, when they either don't serve much of a purpose or become distracting). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@Dissident93: As stated before, "The Phantoms" is not shorthand for the Phantom Thieves of Hearts. The general term used to describe "The Phantom Thieves of Hearts" is "kokoro no kaitōdan" (心の怪盗団). "The Phantoms" (ザ・ファントム, Za Fantomu) was the default name for what you could name your team and what the anime went with. They're two separate names. lullabying (talk) 20:39, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

In Japanese maybe, but obviously not in English (the language of this Wikipedia). ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 06:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

@Dissident93: The game is originally in Japanese and those two names are separate. Translation choices don't change the fact that one name is a general term to refer to the Phantom Thieves while the other is a group name that can be changed in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but Lee Vilenski and I are in consensus that these names should be included. I have also requested a third opinion on the subject. lullabying (talk) 09:01, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

3O Response: The contested edit appears to be from the article's lead. As this is a list article, I feel that the lead is there to give the reader some quick context to understand the list contents and their significance. It's okay for it to summarize some material from the main article, Persona 5, as it applies to the list, but this should not go into excessive detail or act as a substitute for reading the main article. (Most readers will arrive here from the main article.) I feel that this includes translations. Readers can visit (or return to) the main article if they wish broader context. The name of the team from the anime isn't especially relevant for this video game article, and listing default values seems trivial.
I would also note that WP:VG/NONENG states, in referring to the titles of video games, It is recommended that unless the Japanese name (kanji/kana) is critical to the understanding of the topic, one should place it in a footnote to the official English. I feel that this could be extended to other areas of the article, and may satisfy the concerns about matters being "lost in translation" while keeping the article prose uncluttered. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it will be of help in reaching consensus. – Reidgreg (talk) 16:33, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

This has been my reasoning the whole time. We are an English encyclopedia, so having Japanese kanji for every single noun mentioned in the list is not helpful. At the very least, put it in note form like WP:VG/NONENG states. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:21, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

I was pushing for it to at least be put it in footnotes. Lee Vilenski and I are in consensus that those names should be included. One is a general term and the other is the actual team name, which are two separate terms altogether. 22:28, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Done. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 00:01, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Standalone Joker article

So with his (upcoming) inclusion in Smash Bros. Ultimate, he should enough sources to warrant having his own article, following the examples of Protagonist (Persona 3) and Yu Narukami. The article would be titled Joker (Persona) (currently a redirect here). @Tintor2 and Alexandra IDV: for opinions. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:42, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Probably. However, be patient and try working it on a sandbox before you accidentally rush it. Remember the read manual of instruction and most importantly, WP:Notability.Tintor2 (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

I've created numerous articles before, I simply wanted to know if you two, who created and expanded the pages of the other protagonists, would be on board to help streamline the process. I'll go ahead and get a draft started then. EDIT: sandbox is here, I'd would appreciate any help getting it ready for mainspace. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk)

@ProtoDrake: Maybe he can offer help considering his work in the main Persona 5 article.Tintor2 (talk) 21:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

• I usually do not write character articles, so I dunno how much I'd contribute.--Alexandra IDV^talk 22:59, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
  • But you did help fix/expand the other two protagonist articles, so I figured you could here too. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 20:33, 21 January 2019 (UTC)
• Stub created and pushed to mainspace. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 23:25, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

Jose

@Dissident93: This is to discuss you continuing to remove my edits including a new character named Jose (or Josee, depending on how his name will be romanized). Sources that indicate that he will be playing an important role in the story because it's established he controls the will of the Palaces (Famitsu).

If you think there's too much WP:GAMECRUFT for the page, I suggest we remove plot-related elements on the character descriptions (such as plenty of entries retelling a character's entire character arc). But as it stands many of the characters on the page are already important. You can also move the Persona Q2 characters to the main Persona Q2: New Cinema Labyrinth page with a "See also" linking to the other character pages. lullabying (talk) 00:19, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm with Dissident. We know WAY too little, not even an official localization. Plenty of pre-release articles are misleading on such matters. There's no hurry, let's wait for English language sources and notability.

As far as removing the Gamecruft tags - well, the Confidants section could be dramatically cut down. Like. A sentence for each of the Confidants, barring any sentences that directly have non-primary, journalistic coverage. e.g. Takemi's character design, fine, that's referenced. The fact that Takemi's farewell gift is dog tags, who cares. SnowFire (talk) 02:26, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

He may be important, but it's simply too early to have an entry where we basically know nothing else currently about the character. And I also agree with SnowFire, the article in general could use some copyediting to better follow MOS guidelines. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 13:44, 4 August 2019 (UTC)

Layout of voice actors

Someone is being disruptive with how the voice cast of Persona 5 should look and be sourced. They think that the Japanese cast should come first due to the game's Japanese origin and deny that its Behind The Voice Actors page is reliable at all, most likely because the website is not managed by professional journalists (such as those who write news articles on Anime News Network), and roles without green check marks are based solely on someone's personal opinion(s). This other list of game characters is the opposite, the exact way I want it to look. Also note the infobox for Heishiro Mitsurugi. This one is not the same for Joker. One difference is which language of voice actors comes first (in this case, English). Homechallenge55 (talk) 17:37, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

• So basically, you have no MOS/consensus-backed argument and simply want it presented in your own preferred format? Behind The Voice Actors needs to be vetted (again) on WT:VG/RS before we can consider it fully reliable. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 18:57, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Behind The Voice Actors, not even good enough to use here on Wikipedia?

Dissident93 has been persistently vandalizing and rejecting reliable pages for these characters on Behind The Voice Actors when they actually have irrefutable evidence contained in green check marks. Dissident, if you are reading this, please cease and desist making changes to such sources as these based on your own personal opinions, because I certainly don't do that anywhere on Wikipedia. Otherwise, you will be blocked from editing pages for a set period of time. Removing links to plausible pages on BTVA (such as Joker in Persona 5: Royal, whose voice actors were both already confirmed by the game's ending credits) does not give you or others the right to automatically do so. Also, read this for more information. Homechallenge55 (talk) 20:55, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

You clearly did not read the discussion over at WT:VG/RS, nor did you ever respond to the above post from September. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 06:56, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Homechallenge55, I would restore them for the characters that aren't already credited using other secondary sources since for example, using BTVA to validate Erika Harlacher would be redundant. You can also change it to a {{cite video game}} format and have the url point to the BTVA and use via=Behind The Voice Actors. They are clearly screenshots of the closing credits, so anyone could reasonably find the voice actor by walking through the same credits as with someone going through a cite episode's closing credits / title cards: Here you go:

• P-Studio. Persona 5. Atlus USA. Scene: Closing credits, 3m14s in, Cast.

via doesn't work with cite video game AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 22:41, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Cite the game instead of a proxy source with no indication of any professional credentials if a third-party source doesn't mention it. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 03:06, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

If you'd like, I can help you with other Wikipedia articles that have already cited BTVA, such as this one. Homechallenge55 (talk) 16:59, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Homechallenge55, that would be appreciated. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 22:24, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Bolding names

Should the names of each character be bolded? --Osh33m (talk) 15:46, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

• Eh, the MOS allows that for redirect targets, but seeing as this page has ton of those, I just see it as visual clutter that does not really improve the article much, if at all. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 19:25, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Kasumi or Sumire

Some IP editors have been changing Kasumi's name to Sumire, which I understand per WP:SPOILER. However, most articles and marketing use the name "Kasumi", and she's even listed as such on the official website. She's more commonly known as "Kasumi" than she would as "Sumire", and if we do want to get into in-universe terms, she's still known as "Kasumi" if you take the original ending of the game. Which should we use to avoid an WP:EDITWAR? lullabying (talk) 10:28, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

• Addendum: as previously stated, I vouch for using "Kasumi Yoshizawa" as the title header, while keeping "Sumire Yoshizawa" in the body text. The character is way more known as "Kasumi" and is listed as such on the official website and merchandise 1 2. Google search results nets more results using "Kasumi Yoshizawa" than "Sumire Yoshizawa." lullabying (talk) 10:42, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

  I also agree with this. We should go with the WP:COMMONNAME regardless of any spoilers. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:31, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Change of topic name

Hi! I recently had a look through my top edited articles and this one popped up as the only one not promoted to FA/GA/FL. I think listing the item as "list of" is a bit of a misnomer, as it's not really a list in the Wikipedia sense. Would anyone object to "Characters of Persona 5" as a title? It's certainly something that would be effected a lot more by the GAN criteria than that at FLC, which is more to do with tables and formatting and the like. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:34, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

It follows the same standard that other game character pages have, so I'd actually oppose this unless they all get renamed. ~ Dissident93 ^(talk) 17:49, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Probably something to encorporate across all such articles. This isn't really a list, it's more of an overview of the characters in that regard. I can't say I know much about other such articles though. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 09:23, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

By Vastthegamer

the edit that says Vastthegamer was from me, read it 2604:3D09:E785:AF00:156A:B28A:C0F0:C878 (talk) 00:25, 29 June 2023 (UTC)