Talk:Char siu

Charsiu Name Meaning

Charsiu does not mean "Barbecued pork" it means "Barbecued" referring to Cantonese Barbecue, and only a specific type of Barbecue with a distinct color and flavor and preparation method known as "Char Siu". There are other kinds of "barbecue" styles within China. Specifically, this style of barbecue is best translated as "spit roast", as the name implies "fork roasted".

thats like saying "barbecued" means "Barbecued pork" which it doesnt

but Charsiu is not only "barbecued" but also has the marinade, flavor, and ingredients of traditional Charsiu.

And it must be called barbecued and not roasted, because of the common name of the roasted pork with crispy skin that is always hanging next to the charsiu items, which is called "roasted pork"

the method of Charsiu flavoring/ preparation has many different applications other than pork. In ancient times it was also used to cook dog, wild boar, or other available meats. As a means of exceptional flavor and preparation, charsiu's applications extend far beyond pork, though with the availability of Pork today, its almost exclusively what is used. Though when Chinese in Mainland China ask for "Charsiu", they are simply asking for the "Charsiu meat in the window" as people have done since its invention, which could in fact be any number of meats in the past, of which they would consume happily and enjoy it in pretty much the same manner as they would if it was domestic pig, which it almost always is, today..

as I explained in "Pacific Rim Cuisine" Charsiu cannot be used to refer to "pork applications only" today, where Charsiu's flavor and preparation are constantly growing in popularity in many Fusion Cuisines and with many innovative chefs around the world, but especially in East and Southeast Asia, Australia, New Zealand, the Western Coast of the Americas and in Polynesia and other Pacific Regions, or in places with a heavy Chinese influence. --L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 04:06, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Barbecued pork = char siew??

I am not sure about other places, but Barbecued pork in Singapore refers to 肉干 (Bakkwa), an entirely different meat preperation method!--Huaiwei 03:40, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Barbecued pork is a maddeningly nonspecific term. It could also refer to the pulled pork of the American South. JFD 23:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Which is why it should be more accurately and correctly called "Chinese-flavored barbecued pork" as Charsiu must have a certain and fairly standard marinade and flavor--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 05:03, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Undo page move

I have reverted the move of Char siu to Barbecued pork. The move was never discussed, and I believe it is completely unwarranted. Char siu is not at all synonymous with "barbecued pork"; it may be a type of barbecued pork, but to a very large number of people "barbecued pork" means something else entirely, that is, pork (usually a pork shoulder) cooked in the barbecue style (smoked) as detailed in that article. On the other hand, char siu is a very specific item, and the name is well known even among non-Chinese people and non-speakers of Chinese languages. MCB 06:15, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Please note that barbecued pork is a more frequently used term. In most restaurants in Hong Kong, like Café de Coral, Maxim's etc., you can find the short form BBQ pork in the menu on the wall. (Note that Hong Kong is bilingual with Chinese and English). But you would never see they use the term cha siu in the menu. Even in the United States, BBQ pork is the term used by Panda Express, a famous chain of Chinese restaurants. Perhaps some non-Chinese people know the term cha siu, but BBQ pork seems to be a more widely used term. American folks can barbecued a piece of pork in whatever way they want, but this is how "barbecued pork" like in Chinese cuisine. Furthermore, Google search gives 2,030,000 results for BBQ pork, but only 27,900 for char siew. This shows that the former one seems to be much more widely used than the latter one.

Actually, this kind of case already happened once before. A guy forced to use the term sai chaan for Hong Kong-styled western cuisine in Wikipedia. But in English-speaking countries, almost no one would use the "word" sai chaan. (See the discussion page of that article) Transliterations are sometimes a good idea. But if there already exists a widely accepted and more popular literal translation, please don't force Wikipedia to use a "word" that looks self-created.

By the way, please take care of the double redirects.

-Alanmak 06:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't have strong opinion regarding BBQ pork. For sai chaan, Hong Kong-style western cuisine is merely a literal translation, which the subject matter is never known as such in English. — Instantnood 19:44, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

"Hong Kong-style western cuisine" is a literal translation of the Chinese term "港式西餐". But the literal translation is how the subject matter is referred in English. A small number of restaurants in America have signs explicitly stating that they serve "Hong Kong-style western cuisine". Please don't confuse other Wikipedians by saying something like "the subject matter is never known as such in English" if you actually don't know. Perhaps you are, in your mind, still insisting that your self-created term "sai chaan" is the "correct" translation. But please note that in the discussion page of that article, a westerner already said: "As a Westerner who visited both Hong Kong and Singapore last year Sai chaan means nothing to me." Please stop pushing nonsense stuffs. Those kind of self-created translations maybe the way that you use to learn Cantonese, but not all of them are really a "translation" of Chinese terms in English. - Alanmak 06:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Please kindly look up in the edit history [1] and see who actually started using sai chaan. Thanks. — Instantnood 18:53, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

And the literal translation is the work of a wikipedian, practically amounting to a case of original research?--Huaiwei 20:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Merger of articles

I think it would be good idea for the two articles "Barbecued pork with rice" and "Char siew rice" to be merged into the main article, "Barbecued pork." The main reason is that barbecued pork with rice is a deviation of barbecued pork. If barbecued pork with rice deserves a separated article, it would be reasonable to have more separated articles for a whole bunch of other deviations, such as "barbecued pork with rice noodles", "barbecued pork with hefen noodles", "barbecued pork and soy-sauced chicken with rice", "barbecued pork and goose with rice" etc. Moreover, merging "Barbecued pork with rice" and "Char siew rice" into the main article is a way to deal with the dispute over whether "barbecued pork with rice" exists. -Alanmak 17:10, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow. This makes sense to me. :-) -- Jerry Crimson Mann 17:53, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Not really. 叉燒飯 / BBQ pork w/ rice / whatever you call it is rather like an icon, let's say [2] (not quite understand why it comes on separate plates though :-\ , it's a bit uncommon). — Instantnood 18:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

First, why is barbecued pork with rice an icon? Second, if it were an icon, so what? A small number of restaurants in Hong Kong do serve barbecued pork and rice in separate plates. But the barbecued pork and the rice are given to a customer all at the same time. So, the "two things" are still considered as "one set of food". Anyway, barbecued pork with rice is really a derivation of barbecued pork. I see no points for them to be in two separate articles. If you like to do that, you may consider writing some articles like "French fries", "French fires with Ketchup", "French fries in soy sauce" etc. :-) - Alanmak 06:07, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Right. Spaghetti bolognese is just spaghetti with sauce made from meat, or perhaps sauce served with spaghetti. — Instantnood 17:08, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Japanese Char Siu

The Chinese and Japanese char siu are poles apart. Are they literally false friends? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 17:56, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

This article actually started under the title chashu. I'd say Japanese chashu is a variation of the same food, just like 餃子/饺子/jiǎozi. — Instantnood 18:29, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

So are you guys able to decide when to split and when to merge articles?--Huaiwei 03:20, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of redirect

I'm not going to delete the redirect in order for Barbecued pork to be moved back here as yet because it seems like consensus hasn't been reached amongst the involved editors. Thrash out a deal and then get back to me, or another admin. enochlau (talk) 23:37, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Page Name

Unfortunately I was away from Wikipedia for much of the last couple of weeks and have not had the time to participate properly here.

The proper name of this page is char siu (or an alternate spelling). Alternately, perhaps Chinese barbecued pork or Cantonese-style barbecued pork. I cannot stress more fully the point that among English-speaking people (and this is the English wikipedia), "barbecued pork" and "char siu" are NOT synonymous. Char siu is one type of barbecued pork that is common in East Asia, particularly in southern China. They may be synonyms to people living in Hong Kong or Singapore, but that is a tiny minority of the total population of English speakers.

I do believe that the Hong Kong-based editors or those of Chinese background are editing in good faith, but simply lack the language and cultural background to understand that in the vast majority of English-speaking places, barbecued pork and char siu are not at all the same. (I'm not trying to be insulting; your understanding of the English language and US/UK/etc. culture far outstrips any understanding I might have of Asian languages and culture!)

Barbecued pork is a much more often-used term (as per Google search cited above), but those uses are not all referring to the same dish. If you go to any non-Chinese restaurant anywhere in the English-speaking countries -- at least the US, UK, Canada or Australia -- and order "barbecued pork" you will not be served char siu. (I am a native of the US, and have traveled extensively in the UK, Canada, and Australia; I am also a food writer, and often write about barbecue.)

The page move to "barbecued pork" was simply wrong and indefensible. It is analogous to moving the article Toyota to Automobile and leaving a redirect. Imagine the confusion when people (the majority of whom do not have Toyotas) search for "automobile" and get sent to an article about Toyotas! It is this type of poor editing that causes the accuracy of Wikipedia to be doubted and criticized.

MCB 00:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

They may be synonyms to people living in Hong Kong or Singapore. Not quite true. Barbecued pork in Singapore is much more commonly used in reference to Bakkwa. Char Siew is the English spelling used to refer to this particular meat, and very rarely refered to as "BBQ meat"--Huaiwei 03:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I think having it at "Char siu" is the best optioin - "Barbecued pork" is a little too ambiguous. enochlau (talk) 03:37, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help with the page (un-)move, redirects, etc. MCB 07:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Moving back to original location

It is confusing enough for the article and talk page to be referring to different places, so I have moved this back to "Char siu" so that this is consistent. --HappyCamper 23:54, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with Huaiwei that barbecued pork should not be a redirect to char siu, though, and will edit that page to include the form known in the U.S. as barbecue. MCB 07:21, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I think there should be a disambiguation at the top of the page "barbequed pork" to direct readers to the page "cha siu"; or "barbequed pork" should even be a disambiguation page that allows readers to choose either the Chinese-style barbequed pork or the American-styled barbequed pork. It is kind of unfair to always stick to the American way of using a term, whenever there is a dispute. - Alanmak 17:18, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Sweet :-) I like the disambiguation now. - Alanmak 20:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Alan, that's exactly what it is now. Please take a look. The page offers the choice of U.S. style barbecue, char siu, or bakkwa. MCB 17:35, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

You're making this sound like WikiRestaurant :) enochlau (talk) 23:23, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Now, that would be tasty! MCB 00:01, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Box

There's nothing wrong with the infobox - granted it's a little uglier than your average template, but it's ok. Any way to remove the thick cell borders? enochlau (talk) 00:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

The box format is only preferred by editors on Korean-related topics. For both Chinese- and Japanese-related topics inline style is actually more popularly preferred. — Instantnood 21:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Has there been any concensus on this? I dont recall ever giving my opinion on this one in a collective manner.--Huaiwei 12:10, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no consensus the box on a large scale. The established convention is to use inline unless there are a lot of names to cover. --Jiang 08:47, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Proposed edits

Would anybody please kindly take a look at my edits ([3] [4]) and help upload? Thank you very much. — Instantnood 21:49, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Japanese name

While the kanji is indeed 叉焼, my observation is that the katakana チャーシュー is by far the more popular written form for the food on e.g. restaurant menus (in contrast to, for example, 担々麺 (= Chinese 擔擔麵) which seems to tend to be written in kanji on menus). -- KittySaturn 13:17, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Zongzi

If this food is used as a filling in zongzi (presumably the meat, taken off the bones), it should be mentioned in this article. Badagnani 14:22, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Char siu is rarely used as a filling in zongzi, and they are always served boneless.Atticuslai 10:49, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Char Siu's ingredient include femented tofu?

Never heard of such recipe for Char Siu. I have checked for Char Siu recipe on the Internet and none include femented tofu in their mix. Could the wiki editor that edited in the "femented tofu" gives a citation? Atticuslai 01:17, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

it's what gives it its red color in the past. without fermented Tofu there is no red color. However, today, red food coloring is used almost in every instance, whether fermented doufu is present in the marinade or not--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 04:12, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Vietnamese name

Is it called xá xíu in Vietnamese? Badagnani (talk) 07:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Neil Perry calls it 'Chinese Roast Pork'

I have glanced through 'Simply Asian' by Neil Perry (Australian) and he refers to char siu as Chinese roast pork. This could be confusing to Chinese living in Hong Kong because Chinese roast pork is used as the English-language translation term for another type of Cantonese roast dish (the one made with pork belly without heavy seasoning as in char siu, and with the skin rubbed with salt). --JNZ (talk) 09:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

that's not entirely correct, it is almost always referred to as "Chinese Barbecue Pork" wich is different from the crispy, skin-on "Roast pork" which is almost always hanging in the window right next to the barbecue pork--L31 G0NG L41 (talk) 04:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Linguistic Clarification Needed

Hello, and sorry to have to ask (I have tried a net search, with less useful results than Iki might hopefully furnish), but could someone clarify the exact terms used here: though I see there has been some disagreement over the term, the current page definition gives "literally fork-roasted" - does this mean one of the two sounds refers to a fork, and the other the act of roasting, or the two words communicate cooking in this way? I see someone here has suggested the term "barbecue" rather than roast. Thanks for any help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.187.9.79 (talk) 14:26, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 19 September 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to not move, therefore, not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Dreamy Jazz 🎷 ^{talk to me | my contributions} 21:32, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

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Char siu → Cha siu – queried move request. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:21, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

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• Request copied from Wikipedia:Requested moves/Technical requests:-
  • "Cha siu" is the name referred to in the article, while the term "Char siu" is not used. It is also the Cantonese Yale romanisation, while the word "char" is not used in any romanisations. | sig = 17jiangz1 (talk) 15:26, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

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• @17jiangz1 and Imaginatorium: Continued discussion: Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:24, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose "Char siu" seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME, at least as far as google search results go (1,350,000 results for "Char siu" vs 229,000 for "Cha siu"). Bennv3771 (talk) 04:42, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:UE: Established systematic transliterations, such as Hanyu Pinyin, are preferred. However, if there is a common English-language form of the name, then use it, even if it is unsystematic. Yale Romanization is not very "established" (neither it nor Jyutping nor Guangdong Romanization appear outside of textbooks and dictionaries), and anyway the current title is 5x more common in WP:RS than any of the alternatives [5]. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 02:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The romanization "Char siu" seems to have been in common use since at least 1936, when it was included in the book Chinatown Inside Out. 17jiangz1 has a point when he/she mentions that the word would no longer be romanized this way according to current rules, but the old spelling is well established in literature and now appears to be the default. "Cha siu" is also used in literature (the oldest reference I could find was from The Single Girl Goes to Town (1968)), but "Char siu" seems to preponderate according to my search on Google Books (1, 2). See also this mention from the Encyclopedia of Food and Health (2015) and this one from the World Food encyclopedia (2016), both of which use the Char siu romanization. dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 03:55, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
• There was likely never an 'r' sound pronounced there :: the "ar" is likeliest a British English phonetic arhotic spelling of an 'ā' sound, same as Romany language nāk = "nose" becoming English "nark" (= "informant"). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:56, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

  Yes, Cantonese only has vowels or stops at the end of syllables not approximants, and doesn't have an /r/ sound at all (see Cantonese phonology). So the <r> spelling is purely an English thing, whether due to arhotic spelling or folk etymology (wikt:char#Etymology 1) or whatever. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 00:59, 21 September 2018 (UTC)

• Comment I agree with the oppose !votes, but should the article text also be changed to "char siu"? It seems strange that the article is titled a certain way while the article text uses a different romanization. Natg 19 (talk) 00:50, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.