Talk:Black September

Black September has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 21, 2017	Good article nominee	Listed

A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on December 20, 2017.

The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that Jordan (capital Amman pictured) fought against Palestinian fighters and Syria in 1970 during Black September?

Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on September 17, 2017, September 17, 2019, September 17, 2020, and September 17, 2022.

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Main infobox image

There are no other copies of this image anywhere online. It is a small picture, and appears to look very modern. Can we get some confirmation this is actually taken in 1970 and not just mislabelled? 106.69.214.252 (talk) 22:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pakistani troops and Gen Zia

Gen Zia was actively involved in this conflict shouldn't be be in the infobox too Waleed Ukranian (talk) 06:37, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gen Zia was a person, not troops/ Makeandtoss (talk) 09:54, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

some sources state Pakistani Training mission also actively took part in the conflict Waleed Ukranian (talk) 14:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.news18.com/explainers/when-pakistani-dictator-zia-ul-haq-helped-jordan-in-killing-3000-palestinians-8619780.html

Such as this one states that Pakistani troops were actively involved Waleed Ukranian (talk) 15:03, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Low quality source that is also ambiguous about the details. This is not mentioned in overwhelming majority of RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:08, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Pakistani government was not involved in this conflict. We had multiple discussions regarding this. Skitash (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't Zia deserve a mention in commanders section, not saying to add Pakistan in beligrents but to add Zia only in commanders 9 Waleed Ukranian (talk) 15:55, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. That doesn't seem like an improvement to me. Your own source states that "Zia-ul-Haq’s exact role in Black September is debatable". Skitash (talk) 17:17, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He deserves a mention in commanders section atleast though Waleed Ukranian (talk) 17:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source for anti-religious stuff?

"They also stirred up conservative and religious feelings with provocative anti-religious statements and actions, such as putting up Marxist and Leninist slogans on mosque walls.[35]"

This is problematic. I have Karsh's book and he does not mention this. Karsh's own sources, Aburish, Lunt, Walker & Growers, and Shemesh, similarly do not state this happening.

In fact, neither do Salibi, Shlaim, or any other sources cited on this page. I've even looked into Arabic sources after exhausting English ones, and I've still come up empty. The closest thing to this is how the DFLP celebrated Lenin's 100th birthday, but they still didn't vandalise the mosque walls, they instead raised a red flag above the dome. I would appreciate it if anyone finds the source for the claim or is able to verify there is none. Novarupta1 (talk) 17:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My copy of Karsh's book is an ebook without page numbers but I searched for this without success. Makeandtoss, can you shed light on this? Zero^talk 01:18, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I added this and pretty sure read it somewhere, possibly Shlaim’s biography on King Hussein. It’s not an extraordinary claim, also mentioned in Joseph Massad’s work on Jordanian identity if I remember correctly. Makeandtoss (talk) 03:56, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Massad's book page 211 confirms Novarupta1's description: "This religious campaign of de-legitimation was more believable as the more radical elements of the Palestinian guerrillas committed certain irreligious acts horrifying many people. One such reported act was the hoisting of red flags and Lenin’s portraits from the minaret of an Amman mosque on the occasion of Lenin’s birthday." It isn't close enough. I can't find anything in Shlaim. Please fix or remove this. Zero^talk 06:42, 18 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]