Talk:Battle of Peregonovka

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Requested move 30 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Bobby Cohn (talk) 15:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

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Peregonovka offensive → Battle of Peregonovka – Dushnilkin just unilaterally moved this article from "Battle of Peregonovka" to "Peregonovka offensive", without any prior discussion or consensus building on the matter. Their edit summary states "All sources in the article do not reflect the battle for the village, they refer to a full-scale battle in the Uman-Peregonovka area along the entire front, such a name would be correct".

Now, this is very confusing, because none of the sources refer to this as an "offensive": Avrich 1971 uses the term "battle of Peregonovka" in the index and never uses the term "offensive" in sections about the Makhnovists; Darch 2020 refers to it as the "Battle of Peregonovka" and alternatively as the "Battle at Peregonovka", he never uses "Peregonovka offensive" (the only time he refers to an "offensive" in the Peregonovka chapter refers to the broader White gains in mid-to-late 1919); Footman 1961 describes Peregonovka as "one of the decisive battles of the Civil War in the south", he never refers to an "offensive" in the context of Peregonovka; Malet 1982 describes at as the "Battle of Perehonivka" (in the Ukrainian fashion), he never mentions an "offensive" in the context of Peregonovka; Shubin 2010 doesn't describe it as either a "battle" or an "offensive", he uses the term "sudden strike [...] at Peregonovka"; Skirda 2004 refers to it as the "battle of Peregonovka", even describes it as a "crucial battle", he never refers to an "offensive" in the context of Peregonovka.

So none of the sources refer to it as an offensive and almost all of them describe it as a battle. I don't know what rationale there was for moving this other than naked OR, but it sure wasn't enough for a unilateral move. Grnrchst (talk) 14:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• @Czar, Nederlandse Leeuw, Ze'ev Red, and Mellk: Courtesy ping to some of the other article contributors. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:01, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

  Support. We should revert undiscussed moves that appear not to be supported by WP:RS when the previous title was supported by WP:RS. I think Grnrchst has made a good case for this. NLeeuw (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I called this article an offensive, since the data on the forces of the parties and losses relate to large-scale operations in the area of the Uman-Peregonovka(per Tilitsin 1998) front, much smaller forces participated directly in the battle of Peregonovka. Dushnilkin (talk) 15:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

So does Tilitsin describe it as an "offensive", or is that your own original interpretation? Because it looks to me as though it took quite a few logical leaps to end up at "Peregonovka offensive". Reliable sources pretty uniformly refer to it as the Battle of Peregonovka, but you changed the name to something none of the sources say because you thought the "data" said something different? Help me understand. --Grnrchst (talk) 15:40, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

I gave this name because it is the most concise description of the actual scale of the battles.

In addition, it is worth noting that the main part of Makhno's army was not at Peregonovskaya, but at Uman and It was moving in the direction of other white troops.(Timoshuk 1996) Dushnilkin (talk) 08:20, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

You can change the name back if it helps to come to a consensus and complies with the rules of Wikipedia Dushnilkin (talk) 08:21, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Tymoshchuk also refers to it as the "Battle of Peregonovka" ("Битва под Перегоновкой") and never uses the term offensive.[1] But you changed the name to something no source uses because it took place near Uman? Do you think the "actual scale" invalidates every reliable source we have? --Grnrchst (talk) 09:50, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Unless there's a military history manual of style I'm missing on these naming conventions, the operative guideline is to use the common name, which Grnrchst laid out above. If we should be considering other sources, usages, please do list them. czar 12:30, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.