Talk:Battle of Izium

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92.113.168.56 (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Request one: The lead and infobox disagree on which this is. Happy Editing--IAm Chaos 04:57, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected, thanks for noticing! EkoGraf (talk) 15:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All done, thanks! :) --Ferien (talk) 16:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Battle of Kherson which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:23, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing battle

This battle is clearly ongoing and it's now part of Russian offensive on the Donbas and not the Northeastern theater, Russian forces are trying to take villages outside of Izyum such as Kurulka, Pashkove and Oskil. Sgnpkd (talk) 21:06, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of this article is specifically about the battle for the town of Izium, which ended a month ago. The current events that are taking place in the countryside up to 20 miles away from Izium, are part of a separate offensive that is covered in a separate article at Battle of Donbas (2022). If you are disputing this, please provide sources confirming there is a continuing battle for the town and per WP guidelines seek a consensus at the talk page here beforehand since no editors who have edited the article in the past month have disputed the battle for the city ended. EkoGraf (talk) 02:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Made an attempt at compromise by adding the events of the recent offensive away from Izium to the aftermath section. EkoGraf (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Splitting proposal

The two battles are very clearly separate battles and not one large battle, I think a split between the March battle and the September battle would make sense. WanukeX (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this; but is "first" and "second" needed? Oloddin (talk) 00:36, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. Dawsongfg (talk) 01:03, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They're both notable in their own right, but the second one not notable enough as of right now. Dawsongfg (talk) 01:04, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No actual second battle for the town took place, so nothing notable to be had. EkoGraf (talk) 14:00, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is. Dawsongfg (talk) 20:57, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As per WP guidelines notability needs to be proven with RS. At this point, it hasn't. EkoGraf (talk) 11:11, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)". According to the current sources, there never was a second battle of Izium, just a bloodless recapture as part of the 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive. This can be mentioned in a section, but don't portray it as a battle until there's evidence there was one. SnowFire (talk) 04:05, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support 2 battles. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:36, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree By making two articles, one can surmise that there is a pause between two battles when in fact, there wasn't. The battle for Izyum was ongoing since April with both sides attacking everyday in the southern environs with UA forces trying to seige back the city since then. Sgnpkd (talk) 12:41, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We have a page for the battles occurring south of Izium, the Battles of Bohorodychne and Krasnopillia and the Battle of Dovhenke. I can't find any sources stating there was fighting in Izium itself between April and September. Jebiguess (talk) 18:34, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This is not true. There was no fighting in Izium proper from April to Septemeber. Super Ψ Dro 19:54, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with SnowFire The article should be moved back to "Battle of Izium (2022)" since there was no actual second battle for the town (no sources supporting this), Russians withdrew without a fight and any events regarding the Ukrainian recapture of the town are already covered in the 2022 Ukrainian Kharkiv counteroffensive article. This can also all be covered in the aftermath section of this article, whose main topic/subject has been the battle for the town from February-March. And in response to Sgnpkd, there was no continues battle for the town since April. All fighting was taking place 25-30 kilometers south of the town and that fighting was not part of Ukraine's attempts to take back the city, instead to hold of the Russians from advancing on Slovyansk. EkoGraf (talk) 13:59, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - I have changed the wording I used yesterday to better represent the events that took place. I do not think a split is necessary with these new edits. Cordyceps-Zombie (talk) 14:32, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Your changes do not confirm an actual second battle took place, making the title "BattleS of Izium" incorrect. No reliable sources at the moment confirm any fighting took place for the town. And "initial" is not a proper description since it implies a second battle (non-existent) or that the battle from before was short-lived, even though it lasted for more than a month. No reason to split anything, leave the events of the last few days in an aftermath section to show events that took place after the March-May battle ended. EkoGraf (talk) 17:35, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agree - I think the page should be changed to First Battle of Izium, although we should keep the second page as a draft until more sources and facts come out of the situation. Both are notable in their own respect. Jebiguess (talk) 18:33, 11 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Update. With what we know now, it does appear that there was no "second battle of Izium". @Panam2014:, would you complain if I were to revert your earlier bold move, and return the article to the old title "Battle" singular? As it was undiscussed I don't think we need a full requested move process... SnowFire (talk) 09:16, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: And Im not sure the second article should exist. Russia pulled out of Izyum but it is unclear if there was an actual battle or any casualties during the operation, at least not a spike in comparison to the period during which it was under occupation. If there was any battle at all it refers to this entire period, since Izyum was indeed a difficult position to hold, explaining the gradual drawdown over the past months. Until things get a bit clearer we should be cautious. There has been a tremendous amount of hype around this event misportraying it as a major confrontation which just didnt occur. Radosveta Evlog2 (talk) 12:12, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I have boldly restored the old title, Battle of Izium (2022). I think that there should be an explicit consensus that there was a second battle of Izium before the new title is restored, because right now there doesn't appear to be one. SnowFire (talk) 16:11, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: The second "battle" will probably never be encyclopedic. The event will of course be relevant is a few articles. Including this one here, But unless we suddenly have a massive influx of reliable sources what would we even say in the second article ? Let's leave it here for now. And let's keep this article title intact and focused on the first event. Iluvalar (talk) 17:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t care What’s to split off, three sentences from the “Aftermath” section that do not mention any fighting? If one likes, they can find a few sources and go ahead and create a stub article for the Liberation of Izium right now, without any need for this vote. —Michael Z. 15:42, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If there was an ongoing battle from the beginning, then the battle should be listed as a Ukrainian victory. If not, than a second battle of Izyum did take place. To say that the fighting around Izyum was not a Ukrainian attempt on Izyum itself is hogwash. Either way, listing the outcome as a straightforward “Russian Victory” is incorrect. Wolf359Locutus (talk) 11:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) {{replyto|SilverLocust}} (talk) 06:10, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Izium (2022) → Battle of Izium – Year not required, see other articles about other battles in the war. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 08:46, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, per WP:D2D. —Michael Z. 18:49, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There was a 1941 battle at Izium [1] -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 06:35, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that is referenced in the hatnotes on the two pages.

Disambiguation is not needed per WP:ONEOTHER. 90.255.6.219 (talk) 10:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.