Talk:Santa Maria Maggiore
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Mosaics
[edit]The article badly needs a lot more information on this extremely famous and important cycle, instead of the vague mention currently here. Johnbod 13:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Aedes Junonis Lucinae
[edit]A quick google around outside of wikipedia reveals that Sta Maria Maggiore was built in the area of Aedes Junonis Lucinae, or the Temple of Juno in the Grove, an extremely important cultic and administrative site in Ancient Rome. In fact, it is speculated that some of the columns in the current basilica were taken from that structure. Oddly, this claim nowhere appears on the wiki page. Instead, they come from "somewhere". Hm, is someone here uncomfortable with the fact that there was a temple dedicated to the goddess of marriage and childbirth for 700 years before the first Christian basilica was built there? Instead we get a detailed rendition of a medieval fantasy story about the origins of the basilica? Really? Where is the neutral point of view? [[1]] [[2]] (Second citation is from a book published in 1929--this is not new news. Heck, it's not news at all. Maybe we should call it olds.) 98.180.8.57 (talk) 17:28, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
Boo-yah, looks like I am right: "The Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore ("St. Mary Major") was built by Pope Sixtus III in 432-440 A.D. on the highest point of the Cispian Hill. The church reflects the doctrine that Mary was the Mother of God (Theotokos), which was adopted by the Council of Ephesus in 431. The site was occupied by an earlier Roman structure that underwent several building phases,as has been determined by various archaeological excavations undertaken since 1966. Among the finds is a famous painted calendar dating from the late fourth century A.D. No evidence has been found to confirm the tradition that there was an earlier Christian basilica on this site erected in the fourth century A.D. by Pope Liberius.Because of the tradition, S. Maria Maggiore is sometimes called the Basilica Liberiana." [[3]] Accompanied by excellent illustration of the 5th century basilica vs. today. More here [[4]] Looks like the actual basilica is built over (at the least) a fancy house and some baths. 98.180.8.57 (talk) 19:52, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how that supports the original claim that it was Juno's temple. (Incidentally, the early forms of this page claimed it was built over a temple of Cybele. Might've been inaccurate but it seems that the grove of Juno thing is a fairly fringe theory from a single scholar per Digital Augustan Rome.)
- That said, obviously the article needs much more about the Roman ruins before and still under the current building. — LlywelynII 18:18, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Liberian Basilica
[edit]When was the Liberian Basilica rededicated to the BVM? The article is mute on this point. --13:49, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
- According to the legend, Liberius himself dedicated it to the Virgin to celebrate the apparition. Sixtus III rebuilt it in 432 to celebrate the declaration of the Theotokos by the Council of Ephesus, so it was dedicated to Mary at least from that time on. Rwflammang 16:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
The last sentence reads: "Dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary under the title of Our Lady of the Snows, local Roman Catholics commemorate the miracle on each anniversary by dropping white rose petals from the dome during the feast mass." --I suspect the writer meant that the church--not the local Roman Catholics--is dedicated to the BVM. If so, the grammar of this sentence needs fixing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erasmus9084 (talk • contribs) 15:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Architecture
[edit]Article refers to a column of an up-ended canon erected by Pope Clement XIII immediately after the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre of Protestants. However, Pope Clement did not become Pope until 1592. The massacre occurred in 1572, four months after Pope Gregory XIII took office. The Pope at the time of the massacre was Pope Gregory XIII and he was known to have celebrated the massacre as evidenced by the medals he had struck commemorating the occasion. I recommend that Pope Clement XIII be changed to Pope Gregory XIII.
Title
[edit]1st debate ("Title")
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This page needs to be moved to the more appropriate title "Saint Mary Major Basilica." "Saint Mary Major" is an incomplete reference. "Major Basilica" are inseparable words as they reference a specific type of basilica. --Gerald Farinas 15:34, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am changing the caption on the photograph. It currently reads "...place of worship dedicated to the Blessed Virgin Mary," which leaves a dangerous grammatical ambiguity, considering that certain non-litugical Christians have the misconception that Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox "worship Mary". --Mm35173 14:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC) I am one of those who think english-users should be able to look up articles without being forced to learn other languages in the process. I know english-users have a poor track record of being multilingual, but this is not way to solve that problem. I have no clue how you intend to scope the usage of one version versus the other. A mere google search shows a dispaging difference in favor of the English version (remember to set to search webpages only in English on your preferences). If there is some other way, plz enlighten me. As for the Vatican using the Italian version, infallibility applies to faith and morals, not the English language, and if you left that up to those Italian editors there, we would all be speaking Italian. The Jackal God 21:23, 22 February 2007 (UTC) Im not sure if this is a voting point or not. I vote keeping the main article under Santa Maria Maggiore. If someone wants to change it to just "Santa Maria Maggiore" or Basilica of .. that would also be fine. I think Mary Major just doesn't ring true, Mary Major sounds like an Hollywood screen name. I think we should respect names whenever possible. The same applies for Charlie Borromeo (Carlo Borromeo), and some other. My 2 cents. CARAVAGGISTI 22:43, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
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2nd Debate ("Name")
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For ye that like to make broad pronouncements like "nonsense - is always called..." can you please explain to us plebs how you arrive to such conclusions, inspite of the fact that a google search states otherwise (2.5 hits for <<saint mary major's -"santa maria maggiore">>) as well as the personal experience of those who have heard it so phrased in english on both sides of the Atlantic, including in Rome when speaking English. The curiousity compels me, and i never got an answer from Gerald Farinas who is another big fan of italian usage. The Jackal God 17:49, 9 March 2007 (UTC) Given the varieties of Saint, St, S. etc in both languages, this needs to be excluded from the search terms. Then the Ghits are:
In addition, on a quick look, more of the maria maggiore's are about the church in Rome, rather than the feast day, churches in England etc, and indeed women called Mary Major. I am a great supporter of English names, where they are the commonest name used in English (see Talk:Palazzo del Te), but not here. Johnbod 18:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The online free Britannica extract goes with Maria Maggiore, without mentioning the alternative. Johnbod 03:13, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Hmm - Basilica + "Mary Major" in English = 49,200 [5] Basilica + "Maria Maggiore" in English = 154k hits [6]. Why exclude "di" ? Plenty of English sites, like this one, use a full Italian name, and plenty more have a "di" from some street or church nearby in the text: " At Vasari's time S. Maria Maggiore was almost isolated among large villas chiefly Pope Sixtus V's Villa di Termini." - and so on. You are excluding these. Personally I would have gone, like the Vatican, with "Basilica of ...", and would support this, if you feel the change worth pushing for. Johnbod 15:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
PATRIARCHAL BASILICAS Basilica of Saint Peter ... Basilica of Saint John Lateran ... Basilica of Saint Mary Major ... Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls
... Since the above have been searching for "names" perhaps we should take a step back and see just what are the choices for the word MAGGORIE/MAJOR? I can only suggest that since it seems we have been writing about "Mary the Mother of Jesus" that perhaps in the old Catholic thought there was at least on meaning of Maggorie/Major that most of you have avoided? And that is this meaning; "law of legal age: of the age at which a person is deemed fully responsible for his or her actions." Yes, the question was then as it is today in some circles, is the question of was "Mary" legal to carry a child? Therefore, any source that calls her "Mary Major" has made it to the choice as to wether she was a "child" or a woman! That is, she had a "period"! Regards, 96.19.147.40 (talk) 03:15, 25 December 2012 (UTC)Ronald L. Hughes
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3rd Debate ("This is the English wikipedia...")
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I read with some amusement the comment, "this is the ENGLISH wikipedia" in the name change log. If this is the English wikipedia, why is the new name Santa Mary Major, instead of Saint Mary Major? Rwflammang (talk) 02:09, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
The name change is ridiculous. The word maggiore and major are not equivalent. Maggiore has a connotation of larger or greater than. A major event is a large or great event, but there can be two major events, only one can be maggiore. The correct translation would be "Mary Most Major", which while alliterative sounds like the name of a Broadway Play. Whatever rule is used to make this translation a reality has exceeded the bounds here of good sense.Rococo1700 (talk) 08:13, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
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4th Debate ("Save Santa Maria Maggiore")
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In English-language history texts, when it's not called "Mary Major", it's called "the Liberian basilica: can't think of any instance of its being called by its Italian name. Again, I beg to differ on the facts, but Rwflammang is not being truthful in this claim. It is unequivocally false. First of all, he quotes as authority a use by ICEL, but he has not clarified what means or goals ICEL used to label Santa Maria Maggiore. For all I know, they used the equivalent of a automatic translator. Maybe their goal was for every word, name, etc to be translated, regardless of usage. This has less validity than the proofread and validated use of the the term Santa Maria Maggiore for example in Enciclopedia Brittanica or in the major art history textbooks of the last century.
A search of Google books was performed using "Maria Maggiore" and "Mary Major": the former identifies the following titles "MARIA MAGGIORE" (Results in English)
I would consider the books by Hugh Honour and Rudolf Wittkower, to be among the main history of art and architecture textbooks of the last century, and among the best reviews of Roman art and architecture. The citations are from throughout the English-speaking world across the last one hundred years or more. All of the English titles reference the Basilica in Rome.
"MARY MAJOR" GOOGLEBOOKS SEARCHES IN ENGLISH
the universal feasts, Mary and Her Feast Days includes the feast of Our Lady of ...
Of all these citations, only two refer to Santa Maria Maggiore. One of those is a cookbook; and #@%#&! Fracturing Fricasee, most of the others are cookbooks. I knew that when I think of St Mary Major the vision of sponge cakes and low-fat stir-fry always comes to mind. Second point, the term Liberian Basilica refers to an ancient basilica on the Esquiline, likely on the spot where Santa Maria Maggiore was built, and from which Santa Maria Maggiore likely appropriated spolia.<ref>http://books.google.com/books?id=VZUsI-lePtIC&pg=PA333&dq=Liberian+basilica&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e6AzUb7KPOGNygGA9ICAAQ&ved=0CFkQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Liberian%20basilica&f=false | Metropolitan Museum of Art: Guide ]</ref> The cited guide from the Met Museum does use the title St Mary Major in parenthesis, but still uses as a primary title Maria Maggiore.
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5th Debate ("The existence of the church predates the existence of both the English and Italian languages, so there is no reason for us to bow to the Italian usage here, or to regard the English as some sort of translation of the Italian")
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Since when does the name not have to be a translation of its name? If you wish you can use a translation of the Latin name that predated the Italian. It still does not translate to Major. In Latin, the name is likely Maria Maior or Mary the Greater, that still does not translate to mayor.
Rwflammang quotes the use of "maiour" in the 1400s as a justification for Major. In what universe! Again, first you are wrong, maiour may have been the authors' attempt to get a Latin word close to Maior, NOT a word close to major. Second, since when is it the first use of a word that defines what one should use today. Even if it did, Rwflammang and Aunva6 would still be wrong. Their naming of the basilica is choosing a word arbritrarily because a few sites did so, but it goes against the grain of scholarship, common sense, vocabulary, history, the use by other encyclopedias, and the meaning of the word.
Nothing gets people more riled up than people arguing with untruths. Enough is enough: I strongly urge that this be put to a vote or review. Rococo1700 (talk) 19:43, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Rwflammang, I am not sure that the 15th century writer was trying to translate or use some personal form of Latin. He was and did not use the word major, Maior does not mean Major.
Aunva6, again you miss the point. If you want to call this the Major Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore, you would not be redundant. Maggiore does not refer to Basilica; it refers to Mary, this is the church of Mary the Greatests or the Greatest of the icons of Mary. In the Catholic tradition, there are many forms of the adoration of Mary: Mary of the Passion, Mary of the Immaculate Conception, etc. For Rome, this was Maria Maggiore, not the Maggiore Basilica of Santa Maria. Again, I have no objections to changing San Lorenzo fuori delle mura to St Lawrence outside the walls; the connotation of both titles is equivalent. Santa Maria Maggiore is not Saint Mary Major. Of course you could try other combinations Saint Mary the Greatest and Saint Mary the Most Major but they do not have the same connotation and seem akward and forced translations. 1) You cannot argue that St Mary Major is most commonly used in English.
2) You cannot argue that it is the most commonly used term in history or art history books or encyclopedias in English. In fact, it is rarely used independent of Santa Maria Maggiore, if used at all.
3) While you can cite all the rules about translation you want; it is not right to rename it to some name that makes you feel good, but does not correspond to the original name either in Latin or in Italian. If not, why not call Jesus, Joe. What if I find you some authority that calls Jesus "your average Joe does that mean I can translate his name too. That is you can't argue that St Mary Major would be the acceptable English translation of Santa Maria Maggiore to a linguist. Rococo1700 (talk) 22:11, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
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6th Debate ("RfC: should the article use the italian name, or english translation?")
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should the article be called 'basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore' or is the current name more appropriate? Aunva6 (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I agree with John Carter. I just do not find an adequate "other name" in English to replace this one. It is a problem particular to Santa Maria Maggiore, and does not apply to all other churches in Rome. One other exception I can think of is Sant'Agnese in Agone; that is, I do not think another name does justice to its own.Rococo1700 (talk) 23:12, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
I think we have a consensus that Mary Major is the proper name to be used. closing RfC. Aunva6 (talk) 20:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
I am also critical of the process Whiteguru's comments are not based on a fact. He states "English speakers say "Mary Major"; I challenge anyone to to a google search for Travel books and guides using Mary Major Travel versus those using Maria Maggiore Travel. By far, the term to refer to the Roman church, used by Fodors, Lets Go, DK guides, Lonely Planet, Mobile Reference, and others is Maria Maggiore, not Mary Major. Only Mobile Reference uses both terms. For this reason and many other stated above:
Rococo1700 (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Per WP:BRD, this article should be moved back to Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, where it has resided for several years. If people want to move it to another title, WP:RM is the correct process. I could be persuaded that the WP:COMMONNAME is Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore or Santa Maria Maggiore instead (I'm not convinced the "Basilica" is essential and removing it also removes a debate over "of" or "di") but I have never seen the building called "Basilica of Saint Mary Major" outside church sources.
We don't move Castel Sant'Angelo to Castle of the Holy Angel or Bocca della Verità to Mouth of Truth or Circus Maximus to Great Circle or Santa Maria in Cosmedin to Ornate Basilica of Saint Mary or Santa Maria in Aracoeli to Basilica of Saint Mary of the Altar of Heaven, do we: we try to find the name that is used most commonly in English-language sources, whether that name is translated in English or not. -- Ferma (talk) 19:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
Again Rwfmammang, the brief empty snippets of opinions are wearing thin, please back up your comments with data. This is getting annoying to argue with an empty suit.
FWIW Marilyn Stokstad's Art History, an American textbook of art history widely used in universities both in the US and elsewhere, refers to the building as the "Church of Santa Maria Maggiore (Saint Mary the Great)" the first time it is mentioned, then goes on to talk of the "Santa Maria Maggiore" and the "Church of Santa Maria Maggiore" the next couple of times it is mentioned. (I am looking at the 1st edition from 1995, in case that makes any difference). --Hegvald (talk) 10:53, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
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7th Debate ("Disputing Rwflammang points on why Saint Mary Major is an inappropriate name")
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I stated:
Nope. It's true. Rwflammang (talk) 00:45, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
The problem with Rwflammang is that I find that the majority of the Travel books in Google in English including (DK , Lonely Planet, Fodors, lets Go ) refer to the church as Maria Maggiore. The majority of the History text books in English refer to the church as Maria Maggiore. Again, just saying it is so, does not make it right. I say it is so and show evidence. I also disagree with you, but that would be descending to your level. Official sources written in English almost always call it Saint Mary Major. Rwflammang (talk) 00:41, 15 March 2013
This takes precedence over some missal that you have; which I have no idea how it was derived. Rwflammang states: Church sources trump art history sources. It's a church first and a work of art second.
Rwflammang states:
Again I looked up you 4 century source and it calls the church Maiour which is likely a poor translation of the latin Maior. The problem is that Maior is not Major. I do not care what you say four centuries later. You cannot cite something without understanding it, and you do not seem to.
Again, my point was for you to argue with facts or argue against the facts we have put up. Whether you concede or not is irrelevant. I think this is comming to be a point of contention that needs to be debated by someone who is willing to look at the fact. For the reasons given above I find Mary Major a derogatory name in English, not befitting the term Maria Maggiore in meaning, significance, or matching it in common use in English. You are entitled to your whims, not to the facts.Rococo1700 (talk) 04:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC) |
8th Debate ("Liberian Basilica")
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Recent edits have obscured the fact that the current basilica is also sometimes called Liberian. I do not wish to deny that there are some who make a distinction between the present basilica and a hypothetical earlier one. But I do wish to point out that many do not. Rwflammang (talk) 01:14, 15 March 2013 (UTC)
All, please see WP:RM. A formal RM is required when an undiscussed move has been disputed. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:28, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
Sources
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9th Debate ("Request a Move [Basilica of Saint Mary Major to Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore]")
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The result of the move request was: no consensus for any move; restoring status quo ante as correctly noted by Johnbod. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:32, 24 March 2013 (UTC) Basilica of Saint Mary Major → Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore – The arguments are extensive above. Some user is being arbitrary in his choice, even when confronted with multiple points of disagreement. I am not asking to change to a new name, I am asking to keep the name this basilica has had for over a thousand years. I am not certain what process was attempted before, but it seemed to ask for reasons, they were give, but then the user Rwflammang did it anyway without trying to contest the overwhelming evidence. Rococo1700 (talk) 04:15, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
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10th Debate ("Official Church Sources")
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I was pointed here by someone and read the talk page and did some searching. There seems to be a major misconception over what the Church itself calls this building. Exhibit A) http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/sm_maggiore/en/storia/interno.htm The large title text at the top of the page says "The Papal Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore" HOWEVER, if we keep reading the FIRST SENTENCE says "Situated on the summit of the Esquiline Hill, St. Mary Major is the only patriarchal basilica of the four in Rome to have retained its paleo-Christian structures." I would argue that the title at the top of the page is stylized, and that the "official church translation when used in writing is "St. Mary Major." The other possibility is that the title remains the same regardless of what language you view the page as. I confirmed this is wrong by going to en - http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/sm_maggiore/en/storia/interno.htm fr - http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/sm_maggiore/fr/storia/interno.htm and it - http://www.vatican.va/various/basiliche/sm_maggiore/it/storia/interno.htm This tells us a couple things. First - the "it's not an accurate translation" camp is just plain wrong. Even if it were somehow inaccurate, Wikipedia is about venerability, and we can verify the Church itself calls it the "St. Mary Major" in English. Exhibit b) http://www.news.va/en/news/new-pope-francis-visits-st-mary-major-collects-sui The Vatican news agency calls it "St. Mary Major" in English. I think using ghits to calculate something like this is misguided. I think saying "art history trumps the church" is wrong. I think one of the best ways we could solve this is for someone to drive to a brick and mortar bookstore and open a bunch of books. However even this may contradict the fact that the Vatican, their news agency, and all subsequent reprints of the story (FOX news http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/03/14/new-pope-francis-leaves-vatican-prays-at-rome-st-mary-major-basilica/) call it "St. Mary Major" Sooo the way I see it, there are three possibilities. 1) Santa Maria Maggiore Basilica 2) The Papal Basilica Santa Maria Maggiore 3) St. Mary Major Basilica I think "Basilica di" and "Basilica of" are the wrong place to put this article. I think because this is an ENGLISH encyclopedia, 3 is the best choice. It is the translation the Vatican uses, and the media when they republish the Vatican's stories. The important thing to remember is, no one will not be able to find this article because it gets moved. Google searches for "Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore" will still lead to this page. Given what I have read, a title that starts "Basilica di" is wrong because now the title is the Italian version and not the English one. The current state of this article title is like having "Italy" titled "Repubblica italiana". However my argument falls a part a bit when we look at http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Category:Basilica_churches_in_Rome It seems most Basilica's are referred to by their Italian name. Is St. Peter's Basilica the odd man out? I think it might be time to standardize the names or agree to keep them all in their native language. Al, alle, a, di, dei, e, ei, etc should all probably be turned into their english preposition/article counterpart. Xkcdreader (talk) 05:45, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
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11th Debate ("Requested move 7 August 2018 [from Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore to Basilica of Saint Mary Major]")
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The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Santa Maria Maggiore at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 20:04, 14 August 2018 (UTC) Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore → Basilica of Saint Mary Major – English per WP:CONSISTENCY with all the other major basilicas in Rome. Let's evaluate the name again (see above for last discussion five years ago). Chicbyaccident (talk) 20:03, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
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Yet another image
[edit]I noticed that the article mentions the sculpture of Pope Sixtus V; here's an image of that sculpture, if someone wants to try to incorporate it into the appropriate section. I didn't try because that section of the article is already pretty well filled with images. --Quuxplusone (talk) 10:40, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
Saint Cajetan holding the Holy Child, by Bernini
[edit]" Saint Cajetan holding the Holy Child, by Bernini " is in the list of major art works. Is it definitely correct? I was there today and couldn't find it despite asking the staff, including one of the museum curators who seemed to know everything about the church. He thinks this is a mistake. 212.183.128.22 (talk) 18:41, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
File:Dome of Cappella Paolina in Santa Maria Maggiore (Rome).jpg scheduled for POTD
[edit]Hello! This is to let editors know that the featured picture File:Dome of Cappella Paolina in Santa Maria Maggiore (Rome).jpg, which is used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for August 25, 2020. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2020-08-25. Any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be made before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
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Santa Maria Maggiore is a major basilica dedicated to the Virgin Mary and the largest Catholic Marian church in Rome. This picture shows the interior of the dome of the basilica's Pauline Chapel, frescoed by Italian painter Cigoli between 1610 and 1613. It depicts the Assumption, with Mary being lifted up towards heaven, while the apostles, some standing and others seated, look on. She holds a sceptre, and around her, the heavens open and choirs of angels rejoice as cherubs cavort. At the apex of the cupola, God the Father is represented crowned by seraphim. Built by order of Pope Paul V, the chapel houses the image of Salus Populi Romani, and is built of marble and richly gilded and frescoed throughout. Painting credit: Cigoli; photographed by Livioandronico2013
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
[edit]The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
- Dome of Cappella Paolina in Santa Maria Maggiore (Rome).jpg
- Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore - Roma.jpg
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 06:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
This edit established the usage of the page as American English. Kindly maintain it consistently, pending a new consensus to the contrary. — LlywelynII 19:44, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
General cleanup
[edit]I know everyone has been busy arguing about how they didn't know Maria Maggiore is the more common English name of this church and always has been. (Support move to Maria Maggiore when it inevitably comes up for discussion.)
That said, the current page is pretty much a disgrace and could use more focus on just having it make sense. The name section was called "Other appellations". Easy enough to fix, but it should also pull down most of the needless namegore out of the lead sentence. Further pull out all the random legendaria. It can go into a new Legend section or into the next part of History below the Roman bits, but very little of the 5 long paragraphs is actually about names. The history section was called 'History of the current church' despite there being no section on any earlier church. Easy enough to fix, but it should also discuss the site's Roman history and the modern excavations. It should also clarify exactly what is left from the 5th century building if Wikipedia is going along with considering this a 1500 year old Ship of Theseus. There are two separate "Papal basilica" sections that obviously need to be merged and moved out of the space before the History. There was needless fascist propaganda out of Zerocalcare that... well... it's still there but at least now it's slightly less racist and ordered correctly. The interior decoration sections randomly add and subtract = signs from their section titles. &c. &c. &c. — LlywelynII 18:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Roman history
[edit]As pointed out above, this church was raised at a prominent position in the city and incorporated earlier ruins, which have subsequently been excavated. Talk about them. Apparently there's an entire agricultural calendar under there. Even if you view that all as pagan nonsense, go ahead and include it (a) for the rest of us and (b) for the necessary NPOV for Wikipedia, in addition to (c) the satisfaction of the church being there and the pagans not. If people have added it over the years and it's been removed, kindly put it back and let admins know about people removing cited and relevant content that readers want to know about. — LlywelynII 18:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
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