Talk:Banū Mūsā brothers

Untitled

The banu musa are ARAB, not persian. Check out http://www.gap-system.org/~history/Biographies/Banu_Musa.html for more information. I find that this has almost become some sort of propaganda, as if just mentioning that someone is of arabic heritage is a crime. Too often notable arab thinkers, are either moulded so that their names do not reflect their oragin, or they're labelled persian. The brothers were never persian, they were arabic. Their father was arabic as well, and they were born and studied in baghdad under the guidance of al-Ma'mun, the son of Harun-al Rashid the arab caliphite responsible for the thriving culture of baghdad. ALL of whom were arabic. I'm arabic and i study arabic history- and I fear for the survival of the history of my people. The recent events of the middle east- should not hinder nor damage the accurate perception of the arab people.

A strong Persian presence

There is a strong Persian presence in Wikipedia that’s why they keep deleting every thing related to ArabsAziz1005 20:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Mardvich stop this childish Nuisance, if you have an evidance write it with out deleting others contributions Aziz1005 22:39, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

the first referenceis not English and there is No way to check it ;the second one is in English and it does not say directly Banu Musa were Persian.Eventhough, this does not give you the right to delete my contributions and sourcesAziz1005 00:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Even Columbia encyclopedia says they were Arabs[ http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Bana+Musa], ok then keep this misleading Persians every single Iraqi bit became Persian now ...well done guysAziz1005 00:24, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

That's a mirror and tertiary source, we're citing primary sources that clearly state the brothers were Persian. --Mardavich 00:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Your other source, [1] doesn't mention anything about them being "arab". Please find reliable sources in disputes --Rayis 00:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

It does say arab scientists; also does not say Persian eitherAziz1005 01:55, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

The word banu بنو which means children (In Arabic) is different in persian, so if we assume they were persian ,why they did not have a Persian name? and why all thier books were in Arabic ?(because as usually persian users say Baghdad was a persian city!!!)Aziz1005 01:59, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

your source [2] is not reliable sources it does not meets WP:V and WP:RSAziz1005 02:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry your source quotes a scholar by the name Dabbagh(Arab scholar) and there is no other place that it mentions them . It is not reliable. Oaks is a very reliable as he is a professor of history of mathematics. The Banu Musa are considered Persian by Richard Frye (The Golden age of Persia pg 162). Also When Baghdad Ruled the Muslim World: The Rise and Fall of Islam's Greatest Dynasty By Hugh Kennedy(pg 254):The Banu Musa seem to have come from eastern Iran. Note they translated Pahlavi texts. --alidoostzadeh 21:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

invention

The Origins of Feedback Control confirms what you can read here THE PNEUMATICS OF HERO OF ALEXANDRIA FROM THE ORIGINAL GREEK [3]. The sources cited do not support the claims of invention in the article.J8079s (talk) 03:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Valve and plug valve

Invented by the romans or maybe earlier civilisations.Not by the banu musa brothers.See This --Knight1993 (talk) 18:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Also deleting float valve.Known to the romans!!!--Knight1993 (talk) 18:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Self feeding lamp

Known to the ancient Romans, or at least since the time of emperor Theodosius II. Evidence here--Knight1993 (talk) 16:28, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Feedback control

Mayr was misinterpreted. He did state that the feedback control was known to them, but he never said they invented it. In fact he said Ctesibius was the first to use one. Evidence here. Other sources also agree on the primacy of Ctesibuis. See here.--Knight1993 (talk) 17:02, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Self trimming lamp

Another case of plagiarism. When the D.R Hill says the Banu Musa described or used something, the writer of the list seems to forget that description is different to INVENTION. The self trimming lamp was known to Hero of Alexandria. He wrote how to make one in his famous work Pneumatics. See here please —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knight1993 (talk • contribs) 17:07, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

slow down

They did build one. All the things with the exception of the "clamshell"(Hill says this is the first appearance and it'might be original) appear earlier see here [4]. I'm going to put the lamp back in and edit out invention. J8079s (talk) 17:12, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Misuse of sources

This article has been edited by a user who is known to have misused sources to unduly promote certain views (see WP:Jagged 85 cleanup). Examination of the sources used by this editor often reveals that the sources have been selectively interpreted or blatantly misrepresented, going beyond any reasonable interpretation of the authors' intent.

Diffs for each edit made by Jagged 85 are listed at Cleanup5. It may be easier to view the full history of the article.

A script has been used to generate the following summary. Each item is a diff showing the result of several consecutive edits to the article by Jagged 85, in chronological order.

• Banū Mūsā: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9]

Johnuniq (talk) 11:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

With 32 edits, User:Jagged 85 is the main contributor to this article (the 2nd and 3rd highest ranked users did both cleanup work). The article has been tagged intermittently since November 2009. The issues are a repeat of what had been exemplarily shown here, here, here, here or here. I restore the last pre-Jagged version of 10 April 2006 keeping the categories, interwiki links, templates, further reading etc. For more background information, please see RFC/U and Cleanup. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 22:16, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Illustrations

The illustration called An illustration of a self-trimming lamp from Ahmad's On Mechanical Devices, written in Arabic. can be found in the "Granger Collection" located in New York. This site does not seem to have much academic credentials and anyway no source is given for the illustration.

The next drawing on the page is Cover of Kitāb al-Daraj (The book of degrees), by Ahmad, as found in the Saladin library, from before 1193 AD.. There is no 'Saladin library' at present where the illustration can be inspected. Please specify the current location. --Gerard1453 (talk) 16:05, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

Mathematics

One of the achievements quoted in this section is Book on a Geometric Proposition Proved by Galen. But Galen was a physician, not a mathematician: ?? --Gerard1453 (talk) 16:43, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Banū Mūsā brothers/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 10:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:00, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Earwig finds some short phrases in common with this page, but these are phrases such as "the length of a degree of latitude" that are very hard to paraphrase so I think it's fine. Sources are reliable.

• I'm not convinced by the FUR for File:Banū Mūsā depicted on a 1996 Syrian stamp.jpg. These are modern imaginings of the Banū Mūsā, so the "visual identification" justification doesn't really work.

  Image now removed. Is it imperative that the faces have to be what is visually identified? The brothers are shown on the stamp with a 'tool' of each of their trades, which identifies them to an extent. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:37, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

  The relevant policy is point 8 of the WP:NFCC; it doesn't explicitly say anything about identification, but that's been accepted as a reason to have e.g. album covers or a non-free photo of someone in an article. The underlying statement is "its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding". I think it's hard to argue a reader can't understand this aspect of the brothers without the depiction of the tools of their trades. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:34, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• The three manuscript pages are all public domain, but are licensed incorrectly -- I would think PD-Art applies, on top of PD-US-expired and PD-Iran. It's not a big deal for this GAN, since the images are all PD, but I would suggest fixing them on Commons.

  Sorted. AM

• "All but three of the books attributed by scholars to the Banū Mūsā are now lost." I would suggest listing the three at this point, so we don't have to say "lost book" for all the others in the rest of the article. If I understand correctly, several other books are known via commentaries or translations; I think listing those together would be helpful too.
• "A non-extant zij by Ahmad": "zij" is a sufficiently unfamiliar word that I would suggest glossing it inline or with a footnote, in addition to the link.

  Done. AM

• "calculations of the nativities (mawleds) of the years": no link, so no way to find out what this means.

  Sentence amended to remove detail, as mawled is a technical astrological term that would introduce excessive detail if it was to be explained properly. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:01, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• "They differed in their approaches to the concepts of area and circumference": suggest "They differed from the Greeks in their approaches to the concepts of area and circumference", to avoid the implication that they differed from each other.

  Done. AM

• "who has also summarized how the work influenced mathematicians during the Middle Ages": seems like this is an important part of their legacy. Can we get some more details?
• "3 works relating to Conic Sections, by the astronomer Apollonius of Perga, including lī-kitāb Abulūnyūs fī al-maḫrūṭāt ("Conic Sections of Apollonius"), a recension of the work, which was first translated to Arabic by Hilāl al-ḥimṣī and Thābit ibn Qurra (a lost book written by Muhammed)". I wouldn't start a sentence with a numeral if possible, but my main concern is that this is a bit tangled. If I understand the intended meaning correctly, how about "Three works relating to Conic Sections, a book by the astronomer Apollonius of Perga. Conic Sections was first translated to Arabic by Hilāl al-ḥimṣī and Thābit ibn Qurra. One of these three works, lī-kitāb Abulūnyūs fī al-maḫrūṭāt ("Conic Sections of Apollonius"), by Muhammed, was a recension of Apollonius's book."

  Done. AM

• "The treatise involved the use moving geometric objects as moving. using kinematic methods to attempt to solve the classical problem of trisecting an angle". Looks like some editing debris.

  Oops, now sorted. AM

• "The brothers are credited with inventing the first music sequencer as an example of an early type of programmable machine": this sounds interesting enough to give more details of.
• "The Banū Mūsā evolved their ideas to include small pressure variations and conical valves, their first known use as automatic controllers": I don't understand this; I think it's just a bit compressed.

  Text removed (it was technical jargon). Amitchell125 (talk) 07:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• "According to the Dictionary of Scientific Biography, a copy of the manuscript is held in Beirut." Why do we qualify this with the source? If we believe the source, wouldn't we normally just say there's a copy in Beirut?

  Text amended. AM

Will do spotchecks next. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:37, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Spotchecks. Footnote numbers refer to this version.

• FN 14 cites "The brothers are likely to have used portable instruments such as armillary spheres or dials when making their observations, which were recorded from around 847 to 869. From their Baghdad home, they observed stars in the constellation Ursa Major In 847–848, and measured the maximum and minimum altitudes of the Sun in 868–869. They also observed the September equinox in the Persian city of Samarra. To calculate the difference in latitude between Samarra and Nishapur, they organized simultaneous observations of a lunar eclipse." I don't have access to this source; can you quote the supporting text?

"Other important contributors to the House of Wisdom were the three sons of Musa ibn Shakir, another one of al-Ma'mun's court astrologers. Known as the Banu Musa Brothers (Brothers [who were] Sons of Musa), Muhammad, Ahmad, and Hasan were precocious talents, studying in the House of Wisdom under Yahya ibn Abi Mansur. Using smaller, mostly portable instruments armillary sphere or perhaps solstitial and equinoctial armillaries - they made a number of observations between about 847 and 869. In 847-8 they recorded observations of several stars in the constellation Ursa Major and in 868-9 they measured the maximum and minimum altitudes of the Sun both of these sets of observations were conducted from their house in Baghdad, located near a bridge over the Tigris River. They also observed the autumnal equinox in Samarra and arranged for simultaneous observations of a lunar eclipse in Samarra and Nishapur in order to determine the difference in latitude between the two cities." (Blake, p.39) Amitchell125 (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• FN 6 cites "According to one story, al Ma’mun saw the Greek polymath Aristotle in a dream telling him about the importance of natural philosophy, which resulted in al-Ma’mun supporting the work then being done by scientists during what has become known as the Islamic Golden Age." Mostly verified, but doesn't use the term "Islamic Golden Age".

Ref now added to verify the term. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:15, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

• FN 5 cites "It was during the reigns of al-Wathiq and al-Mutawakkil that internal rivalries arose between the scholars there. The Banū Mūsā became enemies of al-Kindi, and assisted in his persecution by al-Mutawakkil." Verified.
• FN 10 cites "Kitāb fī sanat al-shams ("Book on the Solar Year"), which was once attributed to Thābit ibn Qurra". I don't see the Arabic title in this source.

Ref now added. Amitchell125 (talk) 18:46, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Two minor errors in the three I've checked; I'll do another spotcheck once you've given me the quote for the first one. You might want to check the other citations before I do another spotcheck; I can't promote the article if the spotcheck fails. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:21, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the above, I'll get to work on the citations. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:08, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Now all checked, with amendments made where necessary. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

Second pass spotchecks -- footnote numbers refer to this version:

• FN 1 cites "Moḥammad was the most productive of the brothers; of his many works, one still exists." Verified.
• FN 36 cites "These include mechanical fountains, a "hurricane" lamp, self-trimming and self-feeding lamps, a form of gas mask for use underground, and a grabbing tool, constructed in the same way as a modern clamshell grab, for recovering underwater objects." Verified.
• FN 15 cites "There is a similar work on the same subject written by Thabit bin Qurra, who was a student of the brothers." Verified, but this is too closely paraphrased. I've tweaked it; I cut the "student" part since we've said that above.
• FN 13 cites "On his way home to Baghdad from Byzantium, Muhammad met and recruited Thābit ibn Qurra": verified.

-- Good enough; this passes. I hesitated at the FN 15 close paraphrasing but it wasn't identical so I think we're over the line now. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:35, 24 April 2023 (UTC)