Talk:Ball culture

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A fact from Ball culture appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 4 February 2007. The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that ball culture, as seen in Paris is Burning, has drag houses that compete for 12' tall trophies and prizes of $1000 or more?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2007/February.

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On 13 November 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Ballroom scene. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 17:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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Overall style is really strange

There's a lot of odd non sequiturs, repetition and weird formatting choices in this article. Just in the first paragraph we see it repeated twice that people walk for prizes and trophies, and then that ball culture is rooted in necessity (for what?) and defiance (of what?). The history section tells us that there is almost 150 years of history to balls, but tells us almost nothing about them. It tells us that the first balls were gatherings of former slaves to dance in silk and satin dressed and invitations were given at the YMCA, but it doesn't tell us when or where these balls happened, or how many people attended. It tells us that the first Hamilton Lodge ball was definitely integrated, but it doesn't even tell us which decade that it happened in. Its very clear that despite being integrated (when this was extremely rare for any event) it was still extremely racist, but doesn't give a citation for that. The whole article tells us that balls are a black and Latino sub culture, but also that the first balls were integrated with whites in charge, and only later did the black and Latino participants make their own balls. We are told that the format "we know" arose in the 1950s but it doesn't tell us what that format is, or how previous balls were different.

Its all just a mess, honestly. It desperately needs more mainstream citations too, because the academic texts are obscure and we are left to guess if they are based on first hand accounts or what. 88.144.137.230 (talk) 20:11, 9 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Substantial revisions needed

The style, to speak loosely, more or less resembles magazine articles presenting a panegyric. Substantial revisions to tone and style are needed to make this resemble something encyclopedic, as well as citations for any claims that may remain in the article. Unfortunately, this has become a large problem for many articles of this subcategory. See other talk post for more valuable discussion and suggestion. Zusty001 (talk) 09:31, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I totally agree with you. I have tried to do a cleanup (if my edits have made things worse, feel free to revert), but I do not know enough about history, or more mainstream academic sources discussing the phenomenon to do any further substantive edits to the article. The above post and this one both make some good points. (out of curiosity, what do you mean by "many articles of this subcategory"? Just curious. —AFreshStart (talk) 13:24, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@AFreshStart: I wouldn't reverse your edit myself, but, short of deleting the article entirely, it would be best to do research before editing. Take, for example, the claim that your own edit repeated, about judges at earlier versions of these 'balls' being exclusively White. The main source cited for this claim, the publication from University of Michigan Press, expressly contradicts this, from my own short review of it, at least as far as the 'balls' of Harlem/New York in the early 20th century were concerned; And despite the clearly sympathetic tone of that said publication, even it says that the claims of disparity of judgement in earlier 'balls', from before they became largely African and Hispanic gatherings, are disputed, despite that claim being repeated as fact here, in a supposedly generic, encyclopedic entry. Regarding articles 'of this subcategory', take, for example, the beginning of the 'United States' subsection of the 'History' section of the closely related 'Cross-dressing balls' article. Its style and tone (E.g. talk of 'fun'), as well as the use of vague, flowery, and often sweepingly broad language to allow certain claims to exist without explicit declaration (The beginning of this subsection is titled 'stag dance', for example, and while there were certainly examples of this becoming a homosexual phenomenon, often involving crossdressing, the use of a photograph showcasing 'stag' dancing of the most mundane type, shows the intent). Take this excerpt, regarding, as the article states, "cowboys, miners, loggers, mountain men or railroad workers": "In these groups, men often formed intimate friendships, that sometimes ended in real love stories, that were accepted as a fact of life." These articles often appear to be almost a form of journalistic (In the sense of 'journalism', not the academic sense) publication lauding the particular movement which the article may cover. Zusty001 (talk) 22:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies if my edits were problematic. I agree with a lot of your criticisms, IMO, the "stag dances" should be spun off onto its own article. I'll admit that I don't know enough about this topic area to correct any creeping errors, but I have thought this article and the cross-dressing one had some serious issues in terms of tone. Probably a lot of effort to expect a new editor like yourself to do, but any help you could give recovering these articles would be greatly appreciated. Happy to help where I can. —AFreshStart (talk) 23:13, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree with you on just about everything - I personally think that this whole page should be merged with the Cross-dressing ball page, which has a much more comprehensive history and vastly better context. Importantly; much of what is on this page is not really compatible with what is presented on the much larger ball article. The US drag ball section of that page covers much the same ground but is quite different to this page, and while I don't know which is correct I can certainly tell which is better presented and more in keeping with Wikipedia approach. I am just not convinced that this page is needed at all. Any useful information could easily be merged into the larger page, and the minutiae of which categories can be competed in and what houses participate can be cut because this stuff is not really notable. If nothing else, I completely support all of the tags that have been put on this page. 88.144.138.7 (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

House of Pendavis?

Sol Pendavis Williams redirects to this article, which I'm surprised to see no longer mentions him. I'm pretty certain this is because we used to have some content here on House of Pendavis. I'll look through the history if I get a chance, but does anyone know offhand why the content was removed? Can it be reinstated or is there any reason Williams' names should instead redirect to Paris is Burning, or Pose (TV series), where he is mentioned? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 12:29, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ball culture → Ballroom scene – Per first sentence of the article. GnocchiFan (talk) 21:10, 13 November 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I note that there are proposals to merge this into Cross-dressing ball on the article talk page - any input on this would be appreciated, but I'm aware this may have to be a separate proposal. GnocchiFan (talk) 17:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cross-dressing ball is already very long and Ball culture is definitely important enough to merit its own article. Ensuring that content here is reflected there, however is worth doing. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 09:38, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject African diaspora has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Dance has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject LGBT studies has been notified of this discussion. —usernamekiran (talk) 03:46, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have very strong feelings, but I would definitely like to know what queer Wikimedians of colour think about it… — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 09:39, 21 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t have strong feelings either, but the first sentence is easier to change than the article title. Is there a better reason to prefer ballroom scene? What do sources use? — HTGS (talk) 20:56, 22 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Sol Pendavis Williams" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Sol Pendavis Williams has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 November 13 § Sol Pendavis Williams until a consensus is reached. GnocchiFan (talk) 21:12, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Global Queer Studies

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2024 and 9 December 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sunflowerlvr1 (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Aurora Levitt, Small-woodland-creature.

— Assignment last updated by Christacraven (talk) 11:59, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]