Talk:Baba Farid

Untitled

Errors in dates and wrong chronology

According to your article Baba Farid seems to have settled in Punjab with his family in the aftermath of Mongolian invasion of Kabul. The article states their date of settlement around 1125. Now, this is a well-known historical fact that Mongol invaded Kabul around 1222 on their way to destroy the Khawarzami Sultanate. Genghis Khan (real name Temujin) was born on 1162 then how he manages to invade Kabul in 1125.

On the chronology front, in one place the article mentions Shaik Shoaib to be Baba Farid’s grandfather who escapes Kabul to settle in Punjab, and a few lines later the same Shaik Shoaib is stated to be Baba Farid’s father.

Again in relation to Shaik Shoaib’s ancestral history, the article mentions him as the nephew of Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi. This is another serious mistake because Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi lived in the 10th Century and Shaik Shoaib lived in the 12th century.

Correct Title

In line with Wikipedia convention of naming articles (no honorifics), I think the correct title should be "Fariduddin Masood". Redirects can be created from Ganjshakar, Shakarganj, Baba Farid, Baba Fareed, etc etc Hassanfarooqi 14:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I thought about this, but renaming to "fariduddin masood" would make it unrecognizable. No one knows him as "masood", but if you say ganjshakar/shakargunj, then one know exactly who is being referred to. In that sense, Ganjshakar is not an honorific as much as it is an identifier. Precedents for this on wikipedia are for example Alexander the Great, Suleiman the Magnificent or Alfred the Great. In each of these cases, the honorific is an identifier to let us know exactly who is being discussed. So I suggest just keeping the title as is. --Barastert 14:42, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, then I guess we should keep it this way. However I suggest there should be a redirects Hassanfarooqi 15:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Fariduddin Ganjshakar

Baba Farid was a Muslim saint (1173–1266) while Sikhism was founded by Nanak (1469–1538), Baba Farid was dead for 400 years before Sikhism was even founded. How can he be a Sikh ? The Sikh gurus took his selective works added into Granth Sahib and revered him. The fact remain he was Muslim saint. There is a section in Fariduddin Ganjshakar page about his reverence in Sikhism. Paknur (talk) 12:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Paknur. I was fine with most of your edits. This man has great importance in Sikhism as he was chosen to be one of the 15 Sikh Bhagats by the founder of Sikhism. For this reason, there is no reason for you to remove the Shahmukhi and Gurmukhi Punjabi scripts from or the lead or the Sikh Bhagats template from the article. In addition, in the lead, you also delinked Punjab from Punjab region to Punjab (Pakistan) when the division did not exist during that time period. Today, the saint is also revered in Indian Punjab making the former terminology more correct. In fact, there is an Indian university named after him. In addition, I never stated that Baba Farid was a Sikh; in fact I removed the Indian Sikhs category from the article as I found it to be erroneous. I also formated a reference which you undid. For these reasons, I am reverting your edits. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 18:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I checked other Sikh Bhagats in Category:Sikh Bhagats they do not have their name in Gurmukhi script. Fariduddin Ganjshakar page has his name in Gurmukhi script in the Sikhism and Baba Farid section with the links. Paknur (talk) 09:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Gradndson of Ibn Adham

/* Life */ Removed the line that says he was the grandson of Ibn Adham. How can that be?They lived 8 centuries apart. Did you mean Descendent ? Needs substantiation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuadaj (talk • contribs) 18:05, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

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Reconsidering "Baba Farid" as the title

Per WP:COMMONNAME, simply "Baba Farid" is easily the most recognisable name for this person. The older discussion above references a policy against honorifics in titles, but I think exceptions can be made in cases where recognition is impeded. We have article titles like Alexander the Great for example. عُثمان (talk) 15:45, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

@عُثمان You raise a valid point. According to Google Books, "Baba Farid" is far, far more common than "Fariduddin Ganjshakar". Please see here. I will support a request to re-name the article as a result in-accordance to WP:COMMONNAME. I believe honorifical terms such as "Baba" are permitted to be part of an article if they are part of a common name. ThethPunjabi (talk) 02:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 26 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) — kashmīrī ^TALK 18:24, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

---

Fariduddin Ganjshakar → Baba Farid – According to Google Books, "Baba Farid" is far more common than "Fariduddin Ganjshakar". Please see here. Requesting the article title to be moved to "Baba Farid" as per WP:COMMONNAME. ThethPunjabi (talk) 15:34, 26 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 17:56, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Actually "Baba" comes under WP:HONORIFICS and thus, it should not be used in the article titles. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:47, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:HONORIFICS actually seems to support the title being changed to Baba Farid.

"Where an honorific is so commonly attached to a name that the name is rarely found in English-language reliable sources without it, it should be included. For example, the honorific may be included for Mother Teresa."

He's definitely more popularly known as Baba Farid than Fariduddin Ganjshakar in both sources and in the Punjab region in general. Baba isn't simply an honorific in this case, it's an integral part of who he's known as. EstablishmentOfKnowledge (talk) 23:39, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree --BeLucky (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support I think this is a clear case.

عُثمان (talk) 13:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Kabul

@Sutyarashi Please refrain from removing sourced content as you did in your last edit. Please discuss here if you disagree with the Encylopaedia Iranica source. Ixudi (talk) 14:43, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I intended to revert your recent most edit to the lede only. Iranica source is fine. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay. I will rewrite to try and make a compromise. Ixudi (talk) 14:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ixudi you need to discuss first before removing the mention of "Punjabi Muslim" from the lede. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Per [[MOS:ETHNICITY]], we generally refrain from including ethnicity in the lead of biography articles. Ixudi (talk) 15:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

"Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability."

The subject is notable here for being the first recognised Punjabi poet. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Per the Punjabi Muslims article, it is an ethnicity. Merely writing in the Punjabi language does not make one a Punjabi. It's a small point in any case, if the source says he is Punjabi then happy for the lead to remain as is although there should also be a mention of familial origins from Kabul. Ixudi (talk) 15:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Source describes him as such. I will add quote.

I'm also fine with retaining the mention of familial origins in the article body. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)