Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania/Archive 9

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Distance from roof to venue stage

We currently say ``He climbed onto the roof of a building around 400 feet (120 meters) north of the venue stage but PBS says ``Crooks was an estimated 147 yards (135 meters) from where Trump was speaking. What is the distance exactly? Forich (talk) 15:59, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but these facts don't necessarily contradict each other. He could have been 15 metres from the edge of the roof, or 15 metres from the corner that was closest to Trump. I'm not saying he was. The distances seem to be approximate. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 17:48, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Then, I guess we are having two ways to refer to the distance: stage to general area of roof, and stage to position where Crooks made the shot. The distance from stage to the general area of roof is around 400 feet (120 meters or 133 yards) and the second distance is, per PBS, an estimated 441 feet (135 meters or 147 yards). Since the exact position of Crooks includes the roof, and is more relevant for effect of the coming ballistic studies, I vote for using PBS' estimation of distance. Forich (talk) 03:28, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

New York Times says 450 feet for distance general-roof/stage here. Forich (talk) 03:30, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This is unfortunate quite antisemantic wording. How he climbed 400 feet while usnig 5 feet ladder (according to investigators) he purchased at morning of Jul 13 ? Change the semantic to add 3D dimensions of vertical "climbing" and horizontal e.g. "crawl". Note the ladder on video is much taller than 5 feet and nobody seen him caring such big ladder. Mabe add dim of horizontal 'walking' since his van was towed from from location 12 mil away, as widow of firefighter who intercepted bulet shot at Trump saing. That person (CC) whos WP article were just deleted - see discussion above. Maybe he, more than SS saved Trump life? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.26.112.39 (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Nobody claims he climbed 400 ft vertically.

400 or 430 or whatever feet is the distance from the shooter to the podium or stage area where Trump was wounded. When the cop fell from the roof of the building, the distance he fell is given as approx. 8 ft by most sources. --Naaman Brown (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

This source uses an estimation of 410 ft. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 15:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This one, 430ft. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:00, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

This uses the same, more specific estimate (441ft) as PBS. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 16:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

BBC says 443 ft. I suggest we mentioned the whole range of reported distance, from shortest to longest. In this case, the estimated distance is between 400 and 450 ft. Let's edit the article with the range for now, and we can later trim the range by discarding some of the estimates that are less precise. Agreed? Forich (talk) 02:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2024

Add:

The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13.

After this sentence:

U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18]

https://triblive.com/local/regional/butler-county-airport-authority-denied-trump-campaign-request-because-of-conflicting-event

This is some important context about the Trump campaign searching for different venues. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Does it, is Mike Kelly contacted them, not the other way. Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't fully understand what you're saying, but the purpose of adding this is to convey the fact that the Trump campaign tried to book the airport venue, but couldn't, so they went with the alternative.

Did they, or did an outside party make the suggestion, that is my point, is Mike Kelly part of the campaign team, you suggested edit implies he is not. Slatersteven (talk) 11:44, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't think that Mike Kelly is part of the campaign. The Trump campaign tried to book a larger venue 1.5 months ago, but it didn't work out. By the time Mike Kelly contacted them, they had already settled on the Butler Farm Show Grounds. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:06, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

SO what relevance does this have? Slatersteven (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The article gives Mike Kelly's recount that he wanted Trump to hold the event at another location to accommodate more people.

The RS I gave reports that the Trump campaign tried to hold the campaign event at another location to accommodate more people, but it was already booked.

The article makes it sound like Mike Kelly is criticizing the Trump campaign, as if they shouldn't have held the rally there.

This addition conveys the fact that the Trump campaign tried to hold the event at another location, but couldn't. It's totally relevant. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:23, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

UNless you added it, it was already mentioned. Slatersteven (talk) 12:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't notice it, where is the mention? MightyLebowski (talk) 12:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Background, your edit almost word for word. Slatersteven (talk) 12:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

I think there's some confusion here. That's the original sentence. I'm saying to add this sentence:

"The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13."

After the sentence that's already in "Background", which is:

"U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18]"

So the final edit would be:

"U.S. Representative Mike Kelly said he had contacted the Trump campaign to recommend holding the rally in an area that could handle a larger crowd than the Butler Farm Show Grounds, and that their response was, "We appreciate your input but we've already made up our minds".[18] The Trump campaign had originally planned to hold the rally at Pittsburgh-Butler Regional Airport, but it was already booked for July 13." MightyLebowski (talk) 17:31, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Change "trumps physician"

The line about Ronny Johnson being Trumps former physician should be changed to former White House physician Ronny Johnson as he served under multiple presidents (trump and obama). If there is concern over potential bias of Johnson then i suggest adding something along the lines of "former WH physician and personal friend of Trump" 216.175.28.83 (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The reason I wrote "former physician to Trump" is that I wanted to make it clear that he's not Trump's current physician. I think that changing it to "former White House physician" leaves the current relationship ambiguous, since a former White House physician could nonetheless be a current treating physician. There's also the aspect that Jackson's medical license has expired (see, e.g., https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics/2023/09/07/im-an-er-doctor-rep-ronny-jackson-told-officers-at-rodeo-but-license-is-expired/). Perhaps we can come up with a solution that addresses both issues? Something along the lines of "former White House physician and former physician to Trump"? FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

"Trump's former White House physician." MightyLebowski (talk) 17:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

That works. I've changed it. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:03, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 July 2024 (3)

Change:

Comperatore's firefighting uniform, with his name misspelled "Compertore",[138]

To:

Comperatore's firefighting uniform, with his name misspelled by the fire department as "Compertore",[138]

It needs to be made clear that Trump's campaign were not responsible for the misspelling, which is what the cited source says. MightyLebowski (talk) 18:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done - personally I'm not sure the misspelling needs to be mentioned at all, but if it is I agree this should be clarified. Jamedeus (talk) 19:20, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Trump bashes Facebook apologizes Google search censors

I added it but wikipedia is censored https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump&diff=prev&oldid=1237306413 https://www.thecentersquare.com/issues/elections/article_68f63228-4e75-11ef-84b1-8b46cb2eee9b.html https://nypost.com/2024/07/29/business/facebook-admits-it-wrongly-censored-iconic-photo-of-bleeding-trump/ Baratiiman (talk) 15:25, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

So? What relevance does this have to the assassination? Slatersteven (talk) 15:31, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

We do not consider the New York Post to be a reliable source for information (see WP:NYPOST), and the Center Square article does not make the claim that Google actually started hiding anything. Wikipedia relies on content backed up by the actual statements of reliable sources. As such, this entry should not have been accepted for any page. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 15:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

As Slatersteven mentioned it's not really relevant to this article. It might be more approppriate in Trump raised-fist photographs but the way the diff is written might violate WP:NPOV and WP:EPSTYLE and it does not properly summarize the article from the center square which include responses by google and facebook. Yvan Part (talk) 16:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Move paragraph

After the shooting, the FBI uncovered a social media account "believed to be associated with the shooter" with about 700 comments from 2019-2020. The content of the posts were described as antisemitic, anti-immigrant, extreme, and espousing political violence. His Internet activity before the attack included searches related to the 2021 Oxford High School shooting and for other politicians and their events.

Should this paragraph in "Perpetrator" section be moved to the "investigation" section? Chuterix (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

FBI officially confirmed Trump was shot

Per AP article. Hopefully this debate can be laid to rest. Slamforeman (talk) 00:09, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Some here were so sure of this fact, without even requiring reliable sources to confirm it, that I suspect they are all FBI/Secret Service personnel (or ignore WP:RS). I for one will wear my bulletproof tin foil nightcap, just in case. Polygnotus (talk) 02:32, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

That's very funny but please put the scary man above your comment so it doesn't look like I put him there. Slamforeman (talk) 02:41, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Without a tin foil hat to protect you you are already doomed. Polygnotus (talk) 11:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

It was crazy to question it in the first place, since basic analysis of the video shows that, based on the distance of the shooter, Trump's reaction time, and the time at which the camera picks up the sound of the first shot, three things must be true:

1. Trump was wounded and bled from the first bullet while still standing, as shown in high resolution NYT photos taken at 1/8,000th of a second shutter speed

2. There wouldn't have been enough time for shrapnel to travel from its impact point

3. The first bullet's impact point would have been way too far away for shrapnel to even land near Trump

Even a junior detective would know such basic facts, and easily be able to map a bullet's trajectory to fully confirm if Trump was in the line of fire.

I honestly think that the FBI should be considered an unreliable source at this point.

I saw people everywhere here fighting tooth and nail, using all of the mental gymnastics they could, to try and justify the conspiracy theory that Trump wasn't shot.

Prior to the FBI officially admitting it, I told people that Wray made an offhand comment to the effect of "I don't know", which isn't even up to Wikipedia's standard to change the article to say that Trump may not have been shot.

I think this really casts doubt on Wikipedia's reliability too. If this happened here, it must also be happening in thousands of other articles. No wonder people are just going to X or elsewhere to get their information, which of course is also filled with disinformation. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not our job to give our own analysis or research. The above may all be very well true, but we wait for reliable sources to give their conclusions. FBI gave their conclusions yesterday. Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

What I mean is that reliable sources were already saying that Trump was shot, yet it was kind of ignored, and everyone seemed to hold an offhand "I don't know" from Wray as more reliable than tons of sources reporting him being shot in excruciating detail i.e. people here grasping at straws to say Trump wasn't shot, going against what most of the sources were saying. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is one of the only responsible arbiters of the ebb and flow of fluid information on a hot topic such as this. Comparing us to X or any of the other social media site is laughable. We are "soldiers" that will quibble over the smallest detail till we get it right. Of course there are moments when info is wrong. Like every article here, it depends on the moment in time when the reader visits the article. They may visit just at the moment when someone has added unverifiable BS and no one has corrected it. And....a minute later its gone! Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 04:15, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

I didn't compare Wikipedia to X, I'm just saying that this level of ignoring obvious reported facts from WP:RS is a microcosm for people going to "alternative" sources for information. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:23, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

There are actual rules of evidence here, whereas most social media sites are just chaotic zoos (and often filled to the brim with bots). Harizotoh9 (talk) 04:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@MightyLebowski: If anything is "crazy", it is using original research on Wikipedia instead of following WP:RS. If there is still an ongoing investigation by the FBI/USSS because they aren't sure Wikipedia can't just pretend we know more than the FBI/USSS. "I honestly think that the FBI should be considered an unreliable source at this point." on Wikipedia you are the unreliable source (just like every other Wikipedian). Polygnotus (talk) 07:11, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

The question is, does a pending FBI investigation supercede reporting from reliable sources or does Wikipedia hold off reporting until the FBI produces their final report? Numerous reliable sources reported that Trump was shot over several weeks. However, once the head of the FBI states he isn't sure what the FBI knows, all the previous reliable sources are immediately in doubt? 96.231.246.62 (talk) 10:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Previous reliable sources are in doubt but don't need to be discarded. Based on Wray's testimony, any reasonable editor would doubt the contents of this article, at that time. Not change it...yet. The FBI has priority over the crime scene and all available information. They don't deal with conjecture. So any reasonable editor should go to questioning themselves and others. "What's Up?", "Did we mis-inform the reader?", "Is our OR wrong and mis-leading?" We do the best with what we dig up. We are creating a historical account for the ages. We need to be accurate. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 11:43, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Even if the FBI claims they don't know due to an ongoing investigation (that's not even what Wray said), if WP:RS mass report something, it's not conjecture. MightyLebowski (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wrong. Conjecture is an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. Like the 3 statements of truth you made at the beginning of this thread. All were conjecture. Not truth. Slow your mojo. Trump was shot. We all know he was shot and by who. Respect the process of collaborative editing. Buster Seven Talk (UTC) 14:36, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Conjecture is the lack of evidence for a claim. There was a plethora of evidence that Trump was shot before the FBI released their statement. Don't rewrite history. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:32, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, if the most reliable source says that they do not know, then far less reliable sources who claim to know are not to be trusted. The newspapers do not have access to the same resources the FBI and USSS have. Polygnotus (talk) 12:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Hard disagree, tons of reliable sources said Trump was shot and had a hole in his ear. During the hearing, Wray said:

"As I sit here right now, I don't know the answer to that [whether Trump was shot]. I believe we [the FBI] know the answer to that, I just don't have it in front of me."

People here completely ignored what Wray actually said, put everything that WP:RS reported en masse into a dumpster, then "Wikipedians" spun the actual reporting into "the FBI doesn't know if Trump was shot", even though that's not what Wray said, all because of obvious confirmation bias. MightyLebowski (talk) 14:20, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect, reliable sources (correctly) reported that the FBI was still investigating what it was that hit Trump. For example: The bureau is assessing what caused the former president’s wound during an assassination attempt. The question has turned political. The F.B.I. is examining numerous metal fragments found near the stage at a campaign rally in Butler, Pa., to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head, bloodying his ear, according to the F.B.I. and a federal law enforcement official. -- NYT Also you seem to forget that Wray said: there’s some question about whether or not it’s a bullet or shrapnel that, you know, hit his ear. NBC Polygnotus (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

There was no question Trump was shot, it was only the exact details of how the bullet actually hit him that were in question. The FBI later clarified this because people were misusing Wray's words (like you're doing now).

Your quote from Wray was earlier in the hearing, towards the end he clarified with the quote I cited above i.e. it was his latest, more relevant comment on the matter, which is that the FBI knows what happened to Trump, but he just didn't know during the hearing because "the documents weren't in front of him".

Regardless, the plethora of WP:RS reporting Trump being shot would not be undone by reporting on a pending FBI investigation into the matter, meaning it should've been "Trump was shot, but the FBI is still looking into it". MightyLebowski (talk) 16:05, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

@MightyLebowski: If you are just going to ignore the evidence that shows that you are wrong then we are done here. A far more reliable source saying "we do not know yet" overrules less reliable sources saying "we know". And reliable sources like the NYT also reported that the FBI was still trying to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head. Polygnotus (talk) 16:14, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Wray stated the FBI knew if Trump was shot in the hearing, full stop, direct quote.

You're saying Wray, and those who reported on his statement, are unreliable/less reliable sources compared to an anonymous FBI official from the NYT? Lol.

If you're going to ignore what the FBI director said, along with hundreds of reliable sources saying that Trump was shot, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. MightyLebowski (talk) 02:42, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

BBC, 30 July: FBI confirms Trump was hit with a bullet Uwappa (talk) 18:22, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Attempted Assassination of Trump Wikipedia article misinformation

In the article Wikipedia says flying debris hit Donald Trump. This is misinformation on the part of Wikipedia. This article cannot be edited and is controlled by Wikipedia. When suggesting edits you are supposed to state credible sources. Ronny Jackson who is the doctor who has had as patients several Presidents of the United States has come out with a statement refuting the inaccuracy of the idea flying debris hit Trump. He said it, in fact, was a bullet that hit Trump's ear. Wikipedia needs to correct their entry or be regarded as an inaccurate source of information. Cut the nonsense (talk) 18:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Your claim that "In the article Wikipedia says flying debris hit Donald Trump" is false. The sole sentence that includes the word "debris" is "Four Pittsburgh Police officers who were feet away from Trump suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby," and the article is clear that Trump was hit either by a bullet or a fragment of a bullet. You have not quoted/cited anything to substantiate that the article includes "misinformation." Ronny Jackson has not been Trump's doctor for several years and did not diagnose him. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:27, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

They probably misread the sentence because it lacks clarity. It should be changed to:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers, who were feet away from Trump, suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.

The commas ensure that the reader immediately understands the information about the officers' proximity to Trump to be supplementary. MightyLebowski (talk) 18:59, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Timeline's tilde=y

What do the five or six dots beneath the tilde denote, if anything?

~3:50 p.m.

kencf0618 (talk) 12:38, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

If you hover over it a tooltip appears – 'approximately'. — Czello ^(music) 12:39, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah! Hadn't seen it before. Seems cluttered –might one use be sufficient? kencf0618 (talk) 21:54, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

“president” Trump

“president” should be capitalized when it’s preceding and referring to Trump or Biden or anyone that is or was the President of the United States of America. 76.229.151.107 (talk) 00:18, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

See MOS:JOBTITLE for Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MOS) and instructions on when the title "president" should and should not be capitalized when referring to the current or previous holder of the office of the President of the United States of America. General Ization ^Talk 00:31, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Secret Service Director mentions video

I watched the hearing in which the Secret Service Director mentions a "business video" that shows Crooks getting up the roof at 6:06 pm. Can someone confirm this and look for Reliable Sources that let us insert that in our timeline? I may find time to do that this week but I just wanted to put it out there as a to do. Forich (talk) 01:12, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, found it. "Abbate recently discovered video footage from a local business that shows the shooter getting onto the roof of the building at 6:06 p.m., and he was spotted by local law enforcement at 6:08 p.m."Forich (talk) 03:08, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Great but the timeline is extremely incomplete in addition to what you point out here. Thousands of recordings were made of this event. The science of accoustic forensic can figure stuff out with far less than that. Somebody knows the exact time each bullet was fired and by whom. Shouldn’t that be in this chronology at a minimum? I’m not an editor here but isn’t this info available from a reliable source by now, two weeks after the fact? Roricka (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The current timeline has a contradiction:

• 5:51 A member of the Beaver County Emergency Services Unit tactical team sees Crooks on a roof, ...
• 6:06 Crooks gets up on the roof.

According to Row and Abbate the 5:51 is incorrect, the 6:06 is correct. See these two quotes from https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/acting-secret-service-director-testify-senate-details-trump/story?id=112384807

1. Rowe was pressed on reports that 20 minutes passed between the time Secret Service snipers first spotted the gunman on a rooftop and the time shots were fired at the former president. Rowe said it was the "first" he was hearing of that and to his knowledge it was "incorrect."
2. Abbate recently discovered video footage from a local business that shows the shooter getting onto the roof of the building at 6:06 p.m.

Uwappa (talk) 10:07, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Fragment from the hearing that supports the 6:06, mr Abbate, FBI, starting at 1:20:30 of the hearing video.

https://www.youtube.com/live/HvV7Ea7S5eE?feature=shared&t=4830

Quote:

"We have video that was recently found of the shooter walking in the distance from his car just before 6pm, about 5:56 I believe and based on everything we have we assess that he returned to his vehicle at that time, got the backpack, and then proceeded back to the area, to the AGR building and then he is observed of course on the roof just, you know, minutes later holding the backpack in front of him. In fact there is dash-cam footage from a police vehicle that shows him briefly traversing the roof with the backpack in front of him. And then it is just minutes after that that he is actually seen by the officer who I described with the rifle on the roof." Uwappa (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Is the actual video available online? It would help to see it to corroborate with precision the timestamps and avoid possible mispoken words.Forich (talk) 16:05, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The police dash-cam video is in the possession of the FBI. It was not shown during the hearing. It is probably not public yet.

It looks like this video would explain why Crooks was classified as suspicious, not a threat even when Trump was already on stage:

• At 5:56 when Crooks was seen getting his backpack from his car, he was just suspicious, not classified as a threat yet, as no weapon in view yet.
• At 6:03, when Trump went on stage, Crooks was not yet on the roof, still just suspicious, not yet classified as a threat.
• At 6:06, when Crooks went on the roof, it was with the backpack, no rifle in view yet. There is no mention of a police officer in the police car, watching the dash-cam images real time.
• At ~6:09, bystanders see Crooks on the roof with a rifle and alert officers.
• At ~6:10, the Butler Township police officer attempts to climb the roof, sees Crooks with a rifle.
• Shortly after, Crooks fires. According to Row, this is the first time Secret Service snipers see Crooks, see from

0:19:10

2:39:37 and

3:00:05 in hearing video.

Uwappa (talk) 16:57, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Include the famous image of Trump raising fist?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The photograph by Evan Vucci of Trump raising his fist in the air after being shot is the most famous image associated with the assassination attempt and will likely become the canonical image of this event as it is recorded in history.

Wouldn't it be appropriate to make the thumbnail image for this article? (See also: the iconic image of President Kennedy in the motorcade is the featured image for the wiki page regarding his assassination) 2603:6080:1002:E071:ED72:AB37:FD56:AF53 (talk) 21:04, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Moving Georgia’s PM Statements to Misinformation Section

Currently, we have the statements made by Georgian leaders underneath the international response section of the article. I think it is more appropriate to place it in the misinformation section of the article to highlight the fact that baseless conspiracy theories about the attempt aren't just topics on social media but are official positions taken by the leaders of nation states such as in the case of Irakli Kobakhidze.

If we are going to have the misinfo section, it needs to cover every conspiracy theory being pushed by prominent figures. PaulRKil (talk) 13:15, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

Georgia’s PM? Why is what they thinks even relevant? Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 31 July 2024 (UTC)

The idea that the attempted assassination of a politician of this magnitude isn't some kind of conspiracy is the outlier.

It's far more likely that there were co-conspirators, just like law enforcement would automatically assume a bank heist involved others, or a prison break involved those on the inside.

It's not space aliens and unicorns when someone theorizes that such a massive security "failure" involving a world-class VIP safety agency could have far more to it than simple negligence. That being said, there has to be official sources to substantiate certain claims, but just because something lacks a mainstream media source doesn't automatically mean it's not factual, true, or within the realm of possibility.

It certainly isn't crazy to allege or entertain the idea of co-conspirators in a case like this. Therefore, we should't list every claim that has yet to be fully proven as a fact as "misinformation", since that itself borderlines on misinformation. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 August 2024

Change:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers who were feet away from Trump suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.[108]

To:

Four Pittsburgh Police officers, who were feet away from Trump, suffered minor injuries from flying debris when bullets struck objects nearby.[108]

Summary of changes:

Add commas for clarity. MightyLebowski (talk) 03:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Done. Thank you. Uwappa (talk) 05:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024

Remove the "l" next to the "==Background==" heading in the source code so that it shows up correctly as a heading when viewing the page. Legocity264 (talk) 23:29, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

-- Done. Bringingthewood (talk) 23:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Butler County officer fired gunshot at Crooks

There is a newspiece at Washington Post uncovering many new facts about the 10 gunshots fired that day, and new confirmations that one of the shots from one butler county officer towards Crooks is allegedly relevant to the timeline. I do not know exactly what to include in the entry, please read and comment.Forich (talk) 04:51, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Personally, I have doubts about statements made by Butler County officials due to past concerns about their statements. That said, the following quote reassures me: FBI officials confirmed that a Butler County officer fired at the gunman and that the officer’s weapon has been taken to the FBI’s laboratory in Quantico, Va., for further analysis. As a glance, the only things that might need updating are the Shooting and Timeline sections. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:54, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Also, SO? it was a sniper that shot him, and that is the only shot at him that matters. Slatersteven (talk) 10:08, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Not sure that I agree. As I recall, the implication has been the county officer's shot forced Crooks to abandon his firing position and "hunker down" on the far slope of the roof, stopping the initial volley of AR-15 fire and buying time for the Secret Service snipers to prepare to engage him. When he "popped up" again over the roof ridge, a sniper immediately neutralized him. If that was the actual chain of events, the county officer's shot significantly changed the timeline and presumably the ultimate toll. Had he not done so, Crooks might have a) been able to target Trump yet again (perhaps more effectively), and b) killed or injured others in the vicinity during the time (in seconds) he was "distracted" from firing. General Ization ^Talk 23:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Very interesting, seems worthy of mention.Forich (talk) 04:01, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Alright, I have change the text in the Shooting section from "Two shots were likely fired by law enforcement, one after the shots fired from Crooks, and another 16 seconds later" to "Two shots were fired by law enforcement, one by a member of Butler County's Emergency Services Unit after the shots fired from Crooks, and another 10 seconds after that by a countersniper of the Secret Service." I changed the seconds per another Washington Post article, which says: The first eight had similar audio characteristics and were fired in six seconds. They were followed immediately by a shot from a different location, they said, and, 16 seconds after the shooting began, by a final shot. This also lines up with the "the 10-second pause" mentioned in the first article. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:57, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Crooks ALLEGEDLY shot 8, not PROVEN yet.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alleged is not a theory when it concerns LEGAL standing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Extended content

How does the term alleged yield 'closed topic'? I have not introduced any theory. Legally, Crooks has not been declared guilty in a court of law, therefore the charges are alleged. Can a one shooter verdict be rendered while legitimate questions exist? I have not introduced a theory, I introduced legal standing. Is this legal position now to be suppressed in the US? AS A TWENTY YEAR VETERAN I OBJECT STRENUOUSLY TO THIS CENSORSHIP! No theory has been introduced in this discussion. Edadc (talk) 20:39, 4 August 2024 (UTC) This post was regarding whether Crooks shot all eight shots. Since the investigation is incomplete and the FBI seems confused by basic information, robust discussion is warranted by WE THE PEOPLE! Edadc (talk) 20:41, 4 August 2024 (UTC) None of what you're saying makes sense. We are not a court of law. You are not an injured party with "legal standing". There is no legal theory here and your veteran status is irrelevant here. There is no censorship as Wikipedia is not the government. There is no discussion to be has as Wikipedia is not a forum. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:54, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Ludicrous statement. Is the government the only entity that can censor??? And legal standing does exist.. Edadc (talk) 08:12, 5 August 2024 (UTC) @Edadc What legal standing? Again, this isn't court and "legal standing" has no meaning when discussing articles. EvergreenFir (talk) 05:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC) Sorry, parsing fact from wp does not help the case. Wp stated Crooks fired 8 shots, simply unproven..hence the term alleged. 'Alleged' does not convict. Wp is certainly not a court, therefore you bolster my point. They render a statement as if factual, when it is not. If it is *proven*, then it becomes fact. This is simple. Edadc (talk) 06:54, 6 August 2024 (UTC) Articles influence what Americans believe. Articles should be true (alleged would render this 'article' accurate). It is alleged that Crooks shot 8 times, maybe he did. The investigation has not introduced proof. Therefore 'alleged' is proper to insert in the article. This is not rocket science. My legal standing in the matter could come with litigation if the investigation proved this article overstepped legal boundaries. Lawsuits over false information yield plaintiffs, many plaintiffs can come from this one issue. 'Alleged' would prevent such a case from presentation. Articles have consequences, one is dead, three injured by shooters or a shooter. This article could harm due process, investigation, and millions of Americans directly and indirectly. Wp should be More respinsible. 'Alleged' would solve all of these issues. More shooters could be emboldened by irresponsible reporting, and stating unproven things as if factual. Does wp consider that? Do you? Do you care? 'Alleged' is the responsible thing to do, until the investigation is completed, and real facts are revealed. Edadc (talk) 07:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC) I already gave you the article to the Washington Post where they had four experts list to the audio and determine that ten shots were fired. We know that a Butler County officer fired a shot and that a Secret Service agent fired a shot. We know that the remaining eight shots sounds similar to each other and thus are believed to have come from the shooter. We also have video footage from some of those at the rally that supports this. For the rest of your comments: Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:09, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Washington Post? Not a COURT. NOT A INVESTIGATIVE UNIT. BUT certianly published many false slanderous stories too numerous to cite here. Edadc (talk) 08:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC) Well, if you care to kindly cease from WP:SHOUTing and bringing up your unrelated qualifications, then maybe there would be a very small chance someone feels like listening to you. TheWikiToby (talk) 20:46, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Easy. Bringingthewood (talk) 21:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC) Sorry to just barge into the conversation, but I don't really see why you're making such a big deal about this. Sure, it may not have been authoritatively confirmed by the FBI or some other government agency that Crooks fired eight shots, but as Super Goku V said earlier, all the information we have so far certainly leads to such a conclusion, so much so that several reliable... well, mostly reliable sources are currently treating it as fact. And for Wikipedia, that's enough. If you're still going to harp on this, another option which I feel would be more reasonable is in-text attribution ("According to the Washington Post, the New York Times, USA Today, et cetera, Crooks fired eight shots...") but I don't speak for my fellow Wikipedians on that one. ZionniThePeruser (talk) 08:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC) One dead, three injured, including a former POTUS. *That* is a big deal. 'Information we have so far' does not equal fact. 'Alleged' solves the dilemma, why is that objectionable. If you were a defendant would you say it isn't a big deal? Edadc (talk) 07:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC) But in the absence of concrete facts, they're nearly always treated as such. I mean, isn't that practically what science is? ZionniThePeruser (talk) 08:37, 6 August 2024 (UTC) "By asking "Can a one shooter verdict be rendered," you are, in fact, introducing a conspiracy theory that there may have been more than one shooter; there are no "legitimate questions" about this. Crooks is dead, so there will be no charges, much less a trial and a guilty verdict. Yours is not a legal position; it's rhetorical one, and it's time to drop it. FactOrOpinion (talk) 11:05, 5 August 2024 (UTC) wrong. In order to introduce a theory, I would Have To Introduce A Theory. My statements come from a legal standpoint, which Americans are entitled to Constitutionally. Wp is irresponsible to state something as fact which simply is not. Biased newspaper rags do not constitute fact .sorry, not sorry. I don't drop things because someone orders me to. Btw, are there legitimate questions regarding the Kennedy assassination? If so, then there are likewise legit questions here. Why would people want those questions dismissed?? There are several professional opinions out there which suggest the case regarding Crooks is not a closed one, therefore it is not **legally** closed. Is wp outside the legal jurisdiction of the Constitution? As a vet who defended that Constitution, I can tell you no, they are not. Edadc (talk) 07:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC) See wp:or, we go by what wp:rs says, they say he was the shooter, and the only shooter. Slatersteven (talk) 11:10, 5 August 2024 (UTC) In an incomplete investigation, that is 'drinking flavor aid' Edadc (talk) 07:04, 6 August 2024 (UTC) For what it's worth, Encyclopædia Britannica's online article on the incident states that "Crooks fired several shots..." without mentioning a number. 2601:6C1:C001:7DE0:74F1:C9FB:D9D8:D21 (talk) 08:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Timeline, following the media, is at fault massively

The article currently follows media descriptions that Crooks had been on the roof for a long time and seen by the Secret Service Snipers already at 5:52, almost 20 minutes prior to the shooting. This raises the question why they did let Trump take the stage and why they did not do anything against Crooks - and this gives way to the (with that said, plausible!) conspiracy theory that the Secret Service had planned Trump's death. Also it raises the question why Crooks had a free sightline to Trump at the podium for some 8 minutes, and did not fire for no apparent reason.

While the New York Post is not my favorite quality medium, they seem to have the right timeline with Crooks entering the roof only at 6:09. Then everything makes sense: The Secret Service knew about a suspect, but they did not take him too seriously - and then it escalated quickly! Correcting the article in this regard seems to be top-priority and urgent. --KnightMove (talk) 13:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

See wp:or. Slatersteven (talk) 13:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

It's not hard to understand that this correct timeline is a sourced information. --KnightMove (talk) 13:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

See many conversations above about why and how this happened. By the way, that source says "Around 5:45 p.m. — 26 minutes before the shooting — the same Beaver County cop spotted Crooks a second time, now on the roof", I find no mention of 6:09. Slatersteven (talk) 13:20, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Then scroll down to the (and within the) timeline. The article was apparently not updated in the same way as the timeline, which now says:

"5:45 Crooks spotted scoping out roof A cop... sees Crooks eyeballing the roof od the AGR International building, which had a clear sightline to the podium..."

"6:09 Crooks scales roof Right around this time, Crooks climbed up onto the roof...."

And I had some look into the conversations above, and this topic has not been addressed yet - or can you show me where? --KnightMove (talk) 13:41, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This time line contradicts their own text, no wonder the NY post is not an RS. Slatersteven (talk) 13:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Unsurprisingly, also other and more prestigious media cover the correct timeline already, like the Financial Times here:

"6.05pm: As Trump began addressing the crowd, people outside the perimeter fence noticed Crooks. Greg Smith told the BBC he saw someone “bear-crawling up the roof” a few minutes into Trump’s speech and alerted police."

"6.09pm: Four minutes into the speech, Mike and Amber DiFrischia noticed Crooks and began recording him. DiFrischia told CNN his wife spoke to nearby police."

So let him be on the roof already a bit earlier than 6:09, but only minutes after Trump had opened his speech. Anyway our article does not cover at all yet that Crooks climbed onto the roof so closely before the shooting. --KnightMove (talk) 14:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

This does not mention that law enforcement also saw him, it is not a complete time line. Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

And that entitles you to ignore the source for what is written in their time line? Which sources now quoted in the timeline do give a "complete time line", from your point of view? --KnightMove (talk) 15:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

No, it means you do not get to ignore all the other timelines (also provided by "the media", we go by what the majority say. Slatersteven (talk) 15:08, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

"Following the media" i.e. sources, is kindof our thing. GMG^talk 14:01, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

When sources have published information on a confusing event which then turned out to be wrong by further research, it should be kindof our thing to get the facts straight. --KnightMove (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Only when published by a reliable secondary source. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:10, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

We're not in the fact-straightening business. —Alalch E. 15:16, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure you're making the strongest case when you lead off by saying you don't even really favor the reliability of the source you're referencing. GMG^talk 15:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Do you even know what you're talking about? The video shows that the "reliable" sources aren't so reliable. Get to your senses.

@Slatersteven: @Objective3000: @Alalch E.: @GreenMeansGo: So, let's have a look at the 'majority' of the sources Slatersteven referred to, and what they say compared to our article.

In the timeline table, our article currently states

"5:52 A member of the BCESU tactical team sees Crooks on a roof, notifies other security services, and photographs him, the second such incident. Secret Service snipers spot Crooks. Approximately a minute-and-a-half before the shooting, several members of the public report their own sightings to law enforcement officers."

There are six sources cited for this block of statements. The 5:52 time is written only on the ABC News source, which claims "5:52 p.m. Crooks was spotted on the roof by Secret Service", and the WDSU, which explicitly quotes ABC News. So, that's one source. We have not taken over ABC's claim that Crooks had been spotted by the Secret Service. Further, WDSU already qualifies the ABC News statement by writing "on the roof of a building". As you see, our article also qualifies by writing "a roof", not "the roof".

Of the other sources, the older Washington Post article explicitly adresses witnesses "at least 86 seconds before gunfire", not at earlier times. The other Washington Post article states "Guglielmi said that about 20 to 30 minutes before the shooting, local police ... warned the Secret Service security team by radio of a suspicious person with a golf range finder and backpack.", and "WPXI television news reported that the officer called in around 5:45 p.m. — 26 minutes before Crooks opened fire from the roof." The Washington Post does not write about Crooks being on "the roof" or "a roof" at an earlier time.

The BBC article states "A man with a rifle was seen on a rooftop minutes before shots..." based on an interview with witness Greg Smith. If you watch the video, Smith clearly says "...and probably five to seven minutes of Trump speaking, I'm estimating here, I've no idea, you know, but ... we noticed a guy crawling, erm, bear-crawling up the roof..." So, for over one week now we have the evidence reported by serious media that Crooks climbed on that roof only during the Trump speech, few minutes before firing.

I should not have written "following the media". My bad. Our timeline does not follow the media, it violates WP:SYNTHESIS, collecting different claims from different reports into what is a misleading and incomplete timeline.

Hopefully this is sufficient that you take the topic more serously. --KnightMove (talk) 03:46, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

PS: WDSU explicitly states "Around 6:10 p.m. — After rally-goers notice a man climbing on the top of the roof of a nearby building, a local law enforcement officer climbs to the roof, according to two law enforcement officials." So basically our timeline and the 5:52 claim is based on ONE outdated source, ABC News. --KnightMove (talk) 03:51, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

How many of thee sources were published within the last 5 days? Also these all tsalk about what the crowd saw, not what the police or federal officers saw., thus they are not complete chronologies (as has already been stated). Slatersteven (talk) 09:11, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Why hasn't the Wikipedia article timeline been corrected yet? All the referenced sources say that the shooter was photographed on the ground at 5:52pm (the photo also shows him on the ground). The FBI stated that the shooter climbed on the roof at 6:06pm. Wikipedia is citing only one source (ABC news) which contradicts the literally hundreds of news articles which place the shooter on the ground at 5:52pm.

In summary, the shooter is on the ground at 5:52pm but Wikipedia states in the timeline that he is on the roof. After 2 weeks of bickering in the talk section Wikipedia still shows the wrong information, disregarding hundreds of news articles, and quoting only one source. 58.84.204.69 (talk) 08:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Here is a more recent source, that does not only discuss what eye witnesses saw [[1]] and another [[2]] (which makes it clear its based on up dated information),. Slatersteven (talk)

Your first source, again, is ABC News, the only source to back up the claim as written. They repeat their scenario: "Officials said the snipers spotted the suspect, 20-year-old Thomas Matthew Crooks, on the roof of a building outside the security zone at the rally Saturday in Butler, Pennsylvania, at 5:52 p.m. ET."

However your second source, BBC, does NOT back up that timeline. Here it is clearly different:

"Later, around 17:45 local time, Crooks was spotted again, this time by a counter sniper officer around (!) the Agr International building - the one the gunman later (!) scaled up to aim at Trump."

"By 17:52 - 19 minutes before the shooting - the Secret Service was made aware that Crooks was spotted (!) with a rangefinder, and disseminated that information to other officers on site, CBS reported."

So Crooks was spotted by a non-Secret Service counter-sniper at 17:45 AROUND the roof, not on it. By 17:52 the Secret Service got informed. BBC does not claim that they had spotted him, nor that he had been on the roof already.

This does not back up the ABC News claim "Secret Service snipers spotted Crooks on the roof at 5:52 p.m."., BBC clearly contradicts this.

The Associated Press Timeline, updated July 21, confirms that Crooks climbed on the roof around 6:09 p.m.

Further, there is no base in the rules to discredit witness accounts cited by reliable sources - and consistently so. --KnightMove (talk) 10:16, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Aren't there other important gaps in the timeline thus published? For example, Comperatore was killed shielding his family with his body (as reported). This event was recorded by thousands of devices. The precise time for each of the shots fired, and who fired them, must be known. How did Comperatore have enough time to react? Which of the bullets fired struck which victim? When were shots fired law enforcement? Given the science of accoustical forensics, all of this must certainly be known (except possibly the data regarding victims). I am not an editor on this article, but all this will be reported here once it is known? I am surprised that two weeks after the event these data are not widely known. -Roricka (talk) 20:18, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Suggested new part of timeline:

5:51 p.m.	The Pennsylvania State Police notifies the U.S. Secret Service of a suspicious person with a rangefinder on the ground.
5:52 p.m.	The Secret Service informs the counter-sniper team and response agents of a suspicious person. Secret Service countersnipers spot Crooks.

Uwappa (talk) 13:19, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

 Added, though without “ U.S.”. –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 00:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Female agents

"...female agents serving in Trump's security detail faced scrutiny, especially after the release of video showing one of the agents struggling to holster her weapon, and crouching behind Trump. Trump defended the female secret service agent against the backlash and commended her bravery." This wording seems to conflate at least two different female agents. Trump praised the agent who shielded him as he was escorted off stage. The agent who later fumbled with her gun was not the same person. (The "shielder" had her hair in a bun, the "fumbler" did not.) Actually, I think the "fumbler" was the same one photographed crouching behind Trump at one point. Muzilon (talk) 04:08, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

In the last sentence, I changed "the female secret service agent" to "a female secret service agent," so the last sentence quoted no longer refers to the woman at the end of the previous sentence. Or perhaps you'd prefer a slightly stronger change, such as "one" instead of "a"? FactOrOpinion (talk) 00:34, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

Refusal to use drone by Secret Service per New York Times

I inserted this edit which Slatersteven reverted with the summary edit "maybe i am not seeing the full artigcel[sic] I I see nothing about drones not being used". I copied the relevant paragraphs in his talk page, to which he asked that I put the edit as discussion in this talk page.

Please discuss my addition The Secret Service did not accept offers to use a drone to support their surveillance at the Butler rally site, says New York Times with this source:

Also Slatersteven try to read the full article, maybe it is behind some paywall, either way others can confirm that the text is authentic.Forich (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC) Forich (talk) 18:35, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

The article in question is indeed paywalled, and the text in question is indeed hidden from the peasants. Here's an archive.is version: https://archive.is/20240801181507/https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/us/politics/secret-service-technology-trump.html Marcus Markup (talk) 18:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I will now add, I also decided to look for other sources (one source should not be enough ti put it in our words, and I hope you are about to see why) [[3]] "Whistleblower Alleges Secret Service Rejected Requests to Use Drones to Secure Trump Rally" [[4]] "Secret Service refused police offer of drone before assassination attempt: Whistleblower". Its an allegation, not a fact. Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

At 1:09:45 of video of hearing 30 July

The Secret Service could not use their drone system at 3 p.m. due to cellular bandwidth problems. Uwappa (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Summing up: we have three sources: 1) New York Times, reliable source; 2) Washington Examiner, "No consensus, unclear, or additional considerations apply", and 3) the direct feed of the Senate Hearing on Youtube, which we can not use per the Youtube policy. I propose a phrasing of attribution to the New York Times, which is similarly phrased by The Guardian. Let's work it here in the talk page before inserting it in the article.Forich (talk) 16:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

", according to the report in the New York Times,", no issue with attributing it to the NYT, we just can't say its a fact. Slatersteven (talk) 16:36, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Per RSPYT, if the content is from a verified official account, then it has the potential to inherit their level of reliability. A direct feed of the Senate on the official United States Senate account might be citable. --Super Goku V (talk) 10:06, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

That is neither the official "account" of the US government or the FBI. Slatersteven (talk) 10:17, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit proposal: According to the report in the New York Times, the Secret Service did not accept offers to use a drone to support their surveillance at the Butler rally site.Forich (talk) 22:52, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

If we must. Slatersteven (talk) 12:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Secret Service not having radio access

According to the acting director of the Secret Service today, there may have been radio traffic from local police that the Secret Service didn't have access to that could’ve proved crucial to stopping former President Donald Trump from going on stage the day of the assassination attempt.

I think someone should put this into the article: https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-shooting-probe-secret-service-access-radio-traffic/story?id=112522100

The story is about him lamenting about how things could have been different if only they had had proper communications. A regular Sherlock Holmes, that guy, eh? Anyway, I see no benefit to further gunking up the article with lame excuses from the USSS unless they are particularly noteworthy... this is simply par for the course. Marcus Markup (talk) 10:27, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Washington Post has transcript of radio transmissions. https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2024/08/03/trump-rally-police-radio-transmissions/ Uwappa (talk) 16:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The Washington Post is rapidly becoming one of my least favorite "go-to" reliable sources due to their obnoxious habit of presenting to free users one thing, and pay users another. Either block people, or don't... their habits are causing repeated confusion among editors. Here is the complete version they try to block from people who are freeloading: https://archive.is/20240803122843/https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2024/08/03/trump-rally-police-radio-transmissions/ Marcus Markup (talk) 22:04, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

It's crazy how anyone in the media can claim that the USSS "lost sight" of Crooks when he was so close, at a vantage point, and could be seen with the naked eye, including by multiple bystanders. MightyLebowski (talk) 20:24, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

MAybe we just need a brief paragraph on the many (alleged) security failures. Slatersteven (talk) 12:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

List security failures in chapter Criticism of security arrangements? Sources:

• https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/us/politics/secret-service-technology-trump.html
• https://www.cbsnews.com/news/butler-rally-first-trump-event-of-2024-with-secret-service-snipers-officials-say/
• https://www.nbcnews.com/investigations/trump-shooting-security-failure-secret-service-rowe-rcna164654

Uwappa (talk) 06:38, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

How is the fact that Trump was actually shot still being obfuscated?

This has got to stop. I am extremely disappointed by the offensively partisan conduct of a handful of very prolific editors, who I won't name but I don't have to. It was widely reported in RS that Trump was hit by a bullet, or at the very least that it substantially appeared that way. The NYT published an article where they had an FBI forensic specialist analyze the hi-res photo snapped by their photographer the day before of the "projectile" whizzing past Trump's ear and he concluded that it certainly seemed like a bullet and he didn't know what else it could be. The contrary claim, that we just don't know, is the fringe claim. We're pretty darn certain it was a bullet. The FBI just confirmed it was. Whoever is saying we "don't have evidence" is wrong. This has been a repeated problem on extended protection articles where long-time editors have all the control. Sysiphis (talk) 05:22, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

I have been occasionally watching in case administrative action was needed. I know this topic is all over the above talk but please give examples of text to show what you mean. I think very recent edits have resolved the issue: "Trump was shot and wounded" is currently in the lead. I assume that is what you mean? Would anyone wanting to water that down please respond in this section with proposed text, reason, and source. Johnuniq (talk) 05:43, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

No disagreement here, but to correct one thing: the Doug Mills photo capturing a bullet is surely of the second shot, and almost certainly not the one that hit Trump's ear—in the bullet photo and immediately after it, his hand is already reaching up to his ear, his face grimaced, while in the video his hand is still on the podium when the first shot rings out. As a forensics expert told the NYT, "He flinches, and his right hand already starts reaching for his right ear during that time between the first audible shot and the second audible shot." AbsoluteWissen (talk) 07:33, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@Sysiphis: Au contraire mon frère: If the FBI says "we don't know", and a newspaper hires someone who does an independent investigation and says "I think it was this", it makes no sense to pretend that the newspaper (or the dude hired by the newspaper) is the definitive arbiter of truth. The Secret Service and FBI have a lot more resources to investigate stuff like this. So until the USSS/FBI releases a statement saying they figured it out (as they have now) we have to follow WP:RS and not pretend like we already know something that is still under investigation by the FBI/USSS. Malachy Browne's opinion is just that, and if the FBI/USSS would disagree with Malachy we would have to follow WP:RS and the FBI/USSS would be considered "correct" because it is a far more reliable source (perhaps his opinion would be notable as someone who disagreed or made an incorrect guess). You should be disappointed by those who refuse to follow WP:RS. Polygnotus (talk) 11:57, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI's statement doesn't say that "they figured it out". Rather, as this article correctly notes, the FBI's statement is that Donald Trump was struck by either a whole bullet or a fragment of a bullet, i.e., as the FBI's director said a few days earlier, by "shrapnel". Presumably there will eventually be a report from the FBI that gives their final assessment, but even then, it's possible they won't have come to a firm conclusion as to whether what struck Trump first was a whole or fragmented bullet (and if the latter, what caused it to fragment). NME Frigate (talk) 20:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Folks are always in such a hurry. Fortunately, the FBI takes its time as opposed to blurting out an answer, even when pressured (and attacked) by Congress. It's better to be correct than quick. Doubly true for an encyclopedia. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:19, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

About the words "the Doug Mills photo capturing a bullet is surely of the second shot, and almost certainly not the one that hit Trump's ear—in the bullet photo and immediately after it, his hand is already reaching up to his ear, his face grimaced, while in the video his hand is still on the podium when the first shot rings out": There's no need for "almost". Look at how many degrees of arc across the view captured by that photo the bullet traversed in 1/8,000 second, and consider how many inches that suggests the bullet traveled in that period, and consider that Donald Trump had already raised his hand some inches from the lectern (not podium) in this photo, and ask yourself whether he could move his hand anywhere near that distance in so little time. The word "almost" requires us to consider it possible that a bullet that left the muzzle at, say, more than 3,000 feet per second and had traveled only about 400 feet, and then only grazed his ear, could (A) somehow then move only, say, one to two feet past Donald Trump's head in the time it took him to raise his arm from the lectern, and then (B) speed up again to make a streak covering so many degrees of arc in 1/8,000 second. Consider also that the bullet makes such a long streak during that 1/8,000-second exposure while his hand, which he was moving fast, appears frozen during such a short exposure. If we guess that the bullet's streak in the photo traverses six inches (and we ignore the fact that the bullet has length), then it means the speed of the bullet in that instant is 4,000 feet per second (after about 400 feet of deceleration); if it traverses six inches in that 1/8,000-second exposure and we even grant no deceleration up to that point, then just 1/100 second earlier it was 40 feet closer to the gun than it was at the time of the photo. Even when we account for the fact that not every part of the photo was captured at the same instant, that parts of it were captured tiny fractions of a second earlier than other parts, it is impossible for the bullet in the photo to be the one that caused him to raise his hand to his ear. The bullet that hit his ear didn't, after grazing his ear, then hover in mid air and wait for Doug Mills to get his camera ready while Donald Trump started raising his hand, and then accelerate so it could make a streak that long across a 1/8,000-second photo. President Lethe (talk) 00:55, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

July 27th, the FBI released a statement saying: "“What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject’s rifle," and this was then subsequently widely reported in the media. I added the NBC piece on it. Harizotoh9 (talk) 02:18, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

We know, see the section above. Polygnotus (talk) 06:54, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, "grazed" is the more accurate term, and its the wording that the recent NYT analysis uses, so we should probably go with that to clear up confusion. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:15, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The FBI report takes priority here. Does their report say grazed? 65.216.244.67 (talk) 21:26, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no FBI report, merely official memos regarding the event. They have not even released even their preliminary finding. We just summarize what top quality reliable sources say, such as the NYT. You can see photos of Trump's injury, and there's a tiny nick where the bullet graze him. Confusion seems to be people thinking it must have struck him dead center in the ear, and if they don't see it, then nothing happened. But it appears to have graze his ear causing a small wound. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

"top quality reliable sources say, such as the NYT" We are using The New York Times for forensic or medical reports? It does not sound particularly reliable. What source is the newspaper citing?Dimadick (talk) 01:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Weren't you and your ilk babbling about how badly articles needed "reliable" sources and how the New York Times supposedly is such a super "reliable" source? And NOW you're downplaying NYT's reliability just because it doesn't paint Trump in a negative light? You seriously can't be this stupid, Dimadick.

Presumptive Nominee?

Trump is not the presumptive nominee, he is the official nominee of the Republican party. Can this be corrected in the article? 67.145.228.45 (talk) 01:49, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

He was the presumptive nominee at the time of the assassination attempt. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 01:53, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

On July 13, 2024, Trump was not yet the GOP's official nominee. He did not become so until July 19, 2024, at the GOP Convention. This article pertains to events that occurred prior to the convention. General Ization ^Talk 01:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

Deputy FBI Director Paul Abbate Completely Contradicts His Boss Christopher Wray on Trump Bullet Wound Ambiguity

The Deputy FBI Director testified before Congress and said there was never any question that Trump was hit by a bullet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6qS9mXYM0

Thoughts on this? Was Wray lying the entire time when he said that there is still a question about whether it was shrapnel/debris, or a bullet that hit Trump?

I think that more scrutiny needs to be put on any statements released by the FBI before they're included here.

Additionally, people here were keen on not including certain other information because they wanted to "wait for the investigation", but then jumped on trying to include the shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory, even when such a claim boldly flies in the face of reality.

We should add Christopher Wray's false claim to the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section. e.g.

"Director of the FBI Christopher Wray initially claimed that Trump may not have been hit by a bullet, and that flying shrapnel/debris may have been the cause of his ear injury. However, a plethora of sources and experts believed that Trump was shot, and this was eventually confirmed in a statement released by the FBI. Furthermore, Deputy FBI Director Paul Abbate testified before Congress that there was "no doubt, and never has been" in the FBI's mind that Trump was shot with a bullet, contradicting Wray's earlier claim."

MightyLebowski (talk) 10:00, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

We already have umpteen threads on this. Slatersteven (talk) 10:09, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I didn't see any mention of these particular comments from Paul Abbate here. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:44, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

NO, but its still the same issues, was Trump shot. Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Wray did not say "debris," so why do you even introduce that? He said "bullet or shrapnel." The subsequent FBI statement said a bullet or bullet fragment. A bullet fragment is a form of shrapnel, so the FBI statement can be interpreted as clarifying what kind of shrapnel Wray was talking about. Sen. Tillis did not ask Abbate to distinguish between a bullet and a bullet fragment; he asked about ridiculous alternatives (namely: a space laser, a murder hornet, a sasquatch), so the exchange doesn't clarify the bullet vs. bullet fragment distinction. I strongly oppose adding Christopher Wray's "bullet or shrapnel" response to the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section. FactOrOpinion (talk) 11:25, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Debris can be used to refer to shrapnel in the context of a bullet fragment, they're interchangeable terms. Abbate said outright that a bullet (not bullet fragment) hit Trump.

"A bullet", not "bullet fragment". That's literally what Abbate said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6qS9mXYM0&t=41s

Sen. Kennedy (not Sen. Tillis) only asked about "space lasers" after asking the initial serious question.

I think we should include it. Wray was clearly being duplicitous. There was never any question that Trump was hit by a bullet. MightyLebowski (talk) 12:19, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It remains the case that Wray did not use the word "debris," and if you believe that "debris" and "shrapnel" are "interchangeable terms," there's even less reason to say "shrapnel/debris" since it "debris" would add nothing. My mistake about misidentifying Sen. Kennedy; I misinterpreted the name placards in front of them from the angle of the camera. I know what Abbate said. I also know what Wray said and what the FBI's statement said. You want to preference Abbate's statement over the other two. I do not. You want to interpret Abbate's statement as excluding a bullet fragment, when Kennedy never asked about that. I do not interpret it that way. Your personal opinion that "Wray was clearly being duplicitous" has no place on the page. The FBI released a statement, and unless/until they update it, it answers the question. FactOrOpinion (talk) 12:34, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't answer the question though, since WP:RS report conflicting accounts i.e. Abbate most recently saying it was always known that a bullet hit Trump, while others said it may have been shrapnel or debris (the FBI specifically used the word "debris" in the NYT reporting):

"The F.B.I. is examining numerous metal fragments found near the stage at a campaign rally in Butler, Pa., to determine whether an assassin’s bullet — or potential debris — grazed former President Donald J. Trump’s head, bloodying his ear, according to the F.B.I. and a federal law enforcement official."

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/25/us/politics/fbi-bullet-trump-rally.html

There was never any question that it was debris, according to Abbate.

I don't see why you would hold one statement as more reliable than another, given that they all come directly from the FBI and reliable sources. Clearly there are conflicting accounts, and it is obvious now that it was a bullet, not shrapnel or debris, according to Abbate.

You're the one including your opinion when you try to attribute another meaning to exactly what Abbate said i.e. you claiming that Abbate may have meant that it was a bullet fragment, even though that's not at all what he said.

We are supposed to include what WP:RS says, not what you think they meant/should have said/would have said under different circumstances or questioning. MightyLebowski (talk) 20:17, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

No, the FBI did not “specifically use[] the word ‘debris’”; it was introduced by the two NYT reporters, but the article does not quote the FBI using that word.

So far, you haven’t presented any WP:RS that substantiates “was Wray lying the entire time … We should add Christopher Wray's false claim to the ‘Misinformation and conspiracy theories,’” “the shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory,” “Wray was clearly being duplicitous.” Abbate was not asked and did not say that Wray’s testimony was false, that Wray lied or was duplicitous, that the possibility of a bullet fragment was a conspiracy theory, that Wray’s statement was misinformation; you seem to be inferring those things, but it’s not what Abbate himself said. Also, beware that some of your comments about Wray conflict with WP:BLPSTYLE, which applies to all information about living persons, on talk pages as well as articles. FactOrOpinion (talk) 23:52, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

"Debris" was introduced by two NYT reporters "according to the F.B.I. and a federal law enforcement official". Did you miss that part? Are you really denying the FBI said this when a WP:RS reports the FBI said it?

It's not inference, it's literally Abbate saying one thing, and Wray/FBI officials saying another. Regardless of why you think this conflicting information exists, those are conflicting statements from high level government officials on a major event, and it should be noted in the article.

Denying that Abbate said Trump was "hit with a bullet", or attributing different meaning to his words, conflicts with WP:BLP. MightyLebowski (talk) 01:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the two views are necessarily conflicting mostly because they have been reported at different times. Wray's statement was over ten days ago while Abbate's was just two days ago. With the investigation ongoing, opinions can change and new facts can emerge. Claiming that Wray "lied" or that his uncertainty is deceptive without proper coverage by WP:RS would violate WP:NPOV and as noted by the article's own sources, the mention of glass debris started around July 15, a week before Wray's hearing so he is obviously not the source of that information. Yvan Part (talk) 02:49, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

The conflicting information isn't whether it was shrapnel or a bullet, but rather the fact that Abbate said there was "never any question" that a bullet hit Trump, whereas Wray said it was still in question. Never any question vs. in question, that's the conflict. This doesn't change with time, so if Abbate said the FBI never questioned a bullet hitting Trump, but Wray said there was still a question, then someone is factually incorrect, and the information is conflicting.

Also, I never said that Wray lied, but the information that he provided is not consistent with the statement released by the FBI, and the subsequent statement from Abbate. You may be confusing the word "lied" with "duplicitous", the former which alleges intent, while the latter does not.

WP:RS reported on the conflicting statements:

https://www.politico.com/live-updates/2024/07/30/congress/no-doubt-trump-was-hit-by-bullet-00171861

I don't know why you mentioned the glass conspiracy theory. It has nothing to do with what Wray said.

Like I said, there's a plethora of sources to include the conflicting information in the article, and attribute Wray's statement as "misinformation". To be clear about what misinformation is:

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Misinformation

"Misinformation can exist without specific malicious intent."

MightyLebowski (talk) 03:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

It is at best worth the addition of a small mention on the glass misinformation that is already only a single line in this article. We are hanging on the edge of WP:DUE for this article if we go into details about it as we would need to include Wray's statement, Abbate's statement, the subsequent FBI statement mentioned in the Politico article and the GOP reactions to all three of them to respect WP:NPOV. Yvan Part (talk) 04:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Like I said before, the glass misinformation angle has nothing to do with what Wray said. Here's a refined version:

"FBI Director Christopher Wray initially claimed that Trump may have been hit by shrapnel, rather than a bullet. Similarly, FBI sources told the NYT that flying debris may have been the cause of his ear injury. Republicans immediately criticized the FBI and Wray for expressing doubt that Trump was shot. A plethora of sources and experts believed that Trump was shot, and this was eventually confirmed in a statement released by the FBI. Additionally, FBI Deputy Director Paul Abbate testified before Congress that there was "no doubt, and never has been" in the FBI's mind that Trump was shot with a bullet, contradicting Wray's earlier claim."

This absolutely should be included. It is a major piece of misinformation that needs to be documented. MightyLebowski (talk) 04:37, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

No offense but it doesn't really look like a major piece of misinfo from my point of view. You're free to open a rfc about it if you think it's really that important and require additional opinions to reach consensus. Yvan Part (talk) 05:40, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

I respect your opinion, but the notion that Trump wasn't shot is the big enchilada of misinformation. MightyLebowski (talk) 05:46, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, your claim was “the FBI specifically used the word ‘debris’ in the NYT reporting,” but the article does not quote the FBI using that word. Rather, the NYT reporters are the ones who “used the word ‘debris’” in their own description of what they were told.

Yes, things like “shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory” and “Wray was clearly being duplicitous” are inferences, not things that you've presented any WP:RS as saying.

Re: “those are conflicting statements … and it should be noted in the article,” that’s a long way from your original proposal that “We should add Christopher Wray's false claim to the ‘Misinformation and conspiracy theories’ section, e.g., [3 sentences of proposed text].” No one has voiced support for your original proposal. If you now want to propose more limited text about a potential conflict in a different section, you can.

I never “Den[ied] that Abbate said Trump was ‘hit with a bullet.’” so don’t suggest I did, and no, my actual statements that “the exchange doesn't clarify the bullet vs. bullet fragment distinction” and “I do not interpret it that way” do not conflict with WP:BLP. FactOrOpinion (talk) 12:34, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

"but the article does not quote the FBI using that word. Rather, the NYT reporters are the ones who “used the word ‘debris’” in their own description of what they were told."

Distinction without a difference.

What Wray said is objectively misinformation based on its Wikipedia definition, but if you want to add it to another section that more people will agree with, then that's fine.

"Yes, things like “shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory” and “Wray was clearly being duplicitous” are inferences, not things that you've presented any WP:RS as saying."

I never wrote that in the excerpt, but those are reasonable conclusions from WP:RS, not inferences.

"my actual statements that “the exchange doesn't clarify the bullet vs. bullet fragment distinction”"

It's not our job to determine if something else was meant by someone's statement, or by what WP:RS report, but that's what you're doing here. MightyLebowski (talk) 06:10, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

It’s the difference between knowing what words the FBI officer(s) and federal law enforcement official themselves used (a quote) vs. not knowing what words they themselves used (reporters’ description). I think that knowing vs. not knowing is a meaningful difference.

We do not know that Wray’s statement was misinformation, much less a conspiracy theory; we do know that it differs from Abbate’s. For all we know, it is Abbate who misspoke rather than Wray; after all, Wray’s statement is consistent with the official FBI statement (a fragment is a kind of shrapnel), and Abbate’s is not (unless we consider the possibility that by “a bullet” he was including both whole and fragment, as the official statement does). If there are quotes from any other FBI source, please say. Otherwise, all we have are potentially conflicting FBI statements, and WP:NPOV requires that we not come down on either side of it, especially since the FBI has not released an updated official statement. Do you want to propose a sentence for the Investigation section that notes the potential conflict between Wray's and Abbate's statements while abiding by WP:NPOV?

Some of your conclusions are inferences, and we disagree about whether they’re reasonable. And no, what I’m trying to do is check whether claims are true, false, known, or unknown. FactOrOpinion (talk) 18:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

Do you want to propose a sentence for the Investigation section that notes the potential conflict between Wray's and Abbate's statements while abiding by WP:NPOV?

Nothing I wrote in the misinformation write-up conflicts with WP:NPOV, but here is something that we can include in the Investigation section:

"On July 24, FBI Director Christopher Wray told Congress that it was an open question as to whether Trump was hit with a bullet. After his testimony, the FBI clarified that it was indeed a bullet, whether whole or fragmented, that hit Trump in the ear. Deputy FBI Director Paul Abbate testified before Congress on July 30 that there has never been any doubt about whether Trump was hit with a bullet, saying it was a bullet "100%", conflicting with Wray's earlier statement.

MightyLebowski (talk) 18:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

You certainly haven’t been neutral here. You’ve said things like “was Wray lying the entire time,” “We should add Christopher Wray's false claim to the "Misinformation and conspiracy theories" section,” “Wray was clearly being duplicitous,” “shrapnel/debris conspiracy theory,” and “What Wray said is objectively misinformation.” You’re still calling it “misinformation.” You’re clearly taking Abbate’s statement as true and Wray’s as false, rather than simply noting that they conflict to some extent.

I’d like to separate out two different though related issues: (1) what struck Trump, and (2) what the FBI was investigating as possible objects that struck Trump / what there may have been questions about as they explored issue (1). (1) is already addressed in the article by the FBI’s PIO statement. Wray’s and Abbate’s testimony address both (1) and (2) to some extent. (2) was also addressed by the NYT article that you cited earlier, which is consistent with Wray’s statement and not with Abbate’s.

I prefer to let Wray and Abate speak for themselves. How about this, placed after the sentence about Rowe’s Senate testimony:

"There was some conflict in FBI Senate testimony about the FBI’s investigation of what wounded Trump, with FBI Director Wray stating on July 24 that “With respect to former president Trump, there’s some question about whether or not it’s a bullet or shrapnel that hit his ear” (citation: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/07/26/fbi-donald-trump-shot-in-ear/74567255007/), and FBI Deputy Director Abbate stating on July 30 that “There is absolutely no doubt in the FBI’s mind whether former President Trump was hit with a bullet and wounded in the ear. No doubt, there never has been (your Politico citation)."

Or if that’s too long, just “There was some conflict in FBI Senate testimony about the FBI’s investigation of what wounded Trump, with FBI Director Wray stating on July 24 that there was some question about whether a bullet or shrapnel hit Trump’s ear (citation), and FBI Deputy Director Abbate stating on July 30 that there was never any doubt that a bullet had struck Trump’s ear” (citation). FactOrOpinion (talk) 21:32, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the shorter version sounds fine and can be included as your wrote it.

To be clear though, I never said Wray lied, but just posed the question, which is reasonable given the circumstances (a boss and deputy being at odds literally days apart, with the deputy saying what almost all of WP:RS reported from the beginning, which is that it was abundantly clear Trump was hit with a bullet).

Note that in the modern era, shrapnel is almost always used to refer to flying metal objects from bombs, not bullets or bullet fragments/ricochets/other flying material or debris from bullet impacts. Wray's statement barely makes any sense when referring to 5.56 rounds. Using bizarre language out of context is concerning, especially when it comes from the head of a major investigative agency in the United States. MightyLebowski (talk) 19:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I've added the text. FactOrOpinion (talk) 22:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

We don't play detective, but summarize reliable sources like NBC, ABC, CNN Newswire, AP, etc. Some people seem really hellbent on trying to prove that Trump was never injured by a bullet grazing him, when the reliable sources are unanimous in saying he received an injury from a bullet. So until the sources change, nothing in the article changes. Harizotoh9 (talk) 16:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

How is the fact that the trump fist pump photo is not shown in the article?

Can it at least be shown somewhere? It is one of the most historic photos in presidential history. The photo has already become inescapable. You’ve undoubtedly seen it: It is in newspapers, in memes, on T-shirts. Former President Donald Trump, surrounded by Secret Service agents, face streaked with blood, raising a fist into the sky. A man defiant in the face of potential death. Can someone add it back to this article? Any reason not to is absolutely ridiculous and biased. Source as well: https://www.vox.com/culture/360711/trump-fist-pump-photo-explained-expert-media-savvy-politics https://www.politico.com/news/2024/07/13/republicans-back-trump-by-sharing-a-bloody-photo-of-the-former-president-00167980 2603:8001:B5F0:8370:DDA4:E6F8:8C9D:2AD1 (talk) 02:27, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:GETTY number 6, using [A fair use] image to illustrate an article passage about the image [is unacceptable] if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image).

The article about the image is already linked in this article. It's not that hard for a reader to scroll a bit and click. TheWikiToby (talk) 02:39, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Any reason not to is absolutely ridiculous and biased. Alternatively, we are using a copyrighted photo on a separate article about the image and are abiding by our NONFREE policy by not using it here. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Timeline allegedly inconsistent

Although unusable as a source, being a Youtube channel, this "Peak Prosperity" channel put up a detailed analysis of the official timeline that allegedly points out inconsistencies. The analysis can be found here and I only bring it here so that we can use it as an exercise of double checking every timestamp and event to bulletproof the,. Please watch and discuss if there is any merit on pursuing fixes to the Wikipedia timeline. Otherwise I plan on extracting the main points myself later. Forich (talk) 03:54, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Questions about actions of officers should be answered by

1. the FBI, who is interviewing officers
2. a new Senate hearing where officers testify under oath.

Any news on any of those two? Uwappa (talk) 09:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

I would not we go by RS, not some bloke on the internet. Slatersteven (talk) 09:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Calm down, I fully agree with you on sticking with official and reliable sources. The video does mention possible internal inconsistencies of the timeline, which we could use if they are due to some unaccountaded update in the timeline, some version being officialy deprecated, a lapsus linguae during the hearing that got past the news report of it, etc. Here are the factual points the video questions:

1. The location of the picnic table referred in some texts may be contradictory (in some texts seems to refer to a place that could be seen as different in later texts)
2. The Sheriff's statement to the Washington Post retracted or asked for clarification that the officer hoisted onto the roof saw Crooks but did not encountered him "face to face". The sheriff also corrected WaPo by saying he could not know if the rooftop encounter happened precisely "seconds before the gunman opened fire".
3. The AGR building had a team of snipers assigned to be posted there, and it could be confusing who notified who about Crooks? In some accounts AGR-stationed snipers notify the rest about Crooks, while other sources say that they were NOTFIED that Crooks was lurking around the building.
4. The ESU Snipers assigned to AGR were: i) initially three in number; ii) one left the position at 4:27 pm; iii) second left the position at 6:05 pm; iv) the last one left the position at 6:06 pm. The last 2 exit movements of snipers are then happening AFTER Trump's entered the stage which obviously requires us to double-check that in the latest and best official reliable source we have, otherwise it seems not logical if the main purpose of the snipers was to watch from a higher ground DURING the speech.

Please comment on whether our timeline in Wikipedia is solid regarding these specific points.Forich (talk) 19:26, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The timeline is up to date with current knowledge. The questions are valid and local officers should be able to answer them when interviewed by FBI or a Senate hearing.

• As far as I know the FBI has interviewed local officers but not reported yet about results.
• I do not know about a new congress hearing yet.

From another of his videos: the security plan as made public by Senator Grassley: https://www.grassley.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/butler_esu_djt_fpotus_detail_plan_redacted.pdf See

• page 2 AGR building location for local snipers
• page 10 QRF team (4 to 6 Operators)-Responsible for a lone Active Attack/Shooter on/off site.
• page 11 AGR buildings not on the map, not an important sector for security
• page 12 unclear if snipers should be inside AGR building or on top of its roof
• page 40 AGR buildings outside security sectors
• page 42 AGR buildings outside security sectors.

Uwappa (talk) 04:28, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

1. What picnic table? As far as I can tell, neither of the words "picnic" nor "table" are in the article.

2. My personal opinion is that Butler County officials are not reliable regarding the shooting. There have been issues with the various statements since the 15th. --Super Goku V (talk) 06:35, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Specific content classification for "misinformation and conspiracy theories"

This part should be divided into subheadings for two criteria that are receiving more attention more specifically: 1) that the Deep State is behind it, and 2) that the Republicans are behind it, so that these two can be viewed separately. It would be good to display these two main motivations separately. Specific content classification for "misinformation and conspiracy theories" Goodtiming8871 (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

I prefer that the classification focuses on who is being blamed instead of your proposal of who is behind the especulations. The blamed person is explicitely included in most especulations and thus can be classified objectively; whereas to group all persons that see or repost misinformations as pro-democrats, pro-republicans, or pro-black rock is in itself a subjective leap that we should not make except for individual notable cases, and even then, with attribution.Forich (talk) 16:03, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

How about grouping the theories as: i) Antifa, ii) Trump as a staged act, iii) transgender perpetrator, iv) blackrock, v) secret service and Biden orchestrated it as inside job. Again, this classification seems more in line with Wikipedia's guidelines of NPOV. Forich (talk) 04:20, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2024

In the first paragraph of 'victims' there is the sentence;

Both were in stable condition on the next day

This is grammatically confusing. Consider changing this sentence to something like the following;

Both were listed in stable condition the following day. Moziyimorin (talk) 22:29, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. The necessary corrections have been made. Please inform me if further modifications are required. Goodtiming8871 (talk) 13:03, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Why is the viral picture of the incident which shows Trump pumping his fist in the air while surrounded by Secret Service absent here. This information of the incident is incomplete without it. Except it's censorship as usual 2C0F:F5C0:715:5D67:68EC:22FF:FE59:E6A5 (talk) 09:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

NO its called copyright. Slatersteven (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Does the minimum use policy allow the article a link to it's filename file:Shooting_of_Donald_Trump.webp? Uwappa (talk) 10:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

We have an article on the picture, which we already link to. Slatersteven (talk) 10:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@2C0F:F5C0:715:5D67:68EC:22FF:FE59:E6A5 Per WP:GETTY number 6, using [A fair use] image to illustrate an article passage about the image [is unacceptable] if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image).

Sigh... why are there always people who never understand our copyright policy and immediately assume it's censorship... TheWikiToby (talk) 14:01, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

External media link in photographs section

As far as I'm aware, no discussion has been had about adding an external media link to the famous photograph of Trump, so I took the liberty to be bold and added it to the article using the external media template. It's the perfect candidate for this template as an image that would surely be in the article if it was free use, but still does not pass the NFCC criteria. Just noting this here in case anyone has any thoughts or qualms. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 15:58, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

We link to a whole article, about it. Slatersteven (talk) 15:30, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Relevance? Reread what I wrote. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 15:32, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

The relevance is why do we need an external link to the picture when we have an internal one? Slatersteven (talk) 15:34, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I see your point now. Unlike the link to the main article, the external media template makes it clear to the reader how to access the photograph and it allows you to add a caption to the photograph, just like you can with any free image. I think those two merits make its inclusion beneficial to the article. ~ F4U (talk • they/it) 18:00, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Juicy update from CNN

Edit away fellow editors: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/08/politics/police-body-cam-video-trump-shooting/index.html Forich (talk) 19:38, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Probably OR, but the thing that sticks out to me in that video is that body camera "BWC2-122110" doesn't have the time set properly. It doesn't seem possible that there would be gunfire at 18:12:04.

That said, is there anything we can use in this to update the article in any way? --Super Goku V (talk) 06:42, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I've included the CNN citation with the BBC's. kencf0618 (talk) 14:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Some other bits we could consider:

• Per BBC: They [the body and dashboard footage] capture moments of frustration, confusion and miscommunication in the moments before and after the assassination attempt.
• Per New York Times: The footage gives more clarity about the movements of nearby law enforcement officers with respect to previous releases of data.
• NYT: The footage shows that, from around 6:09 p.m to about two and a half minutes later, at least four Pennsylvania law enforcement officers were focused on the roof from where Mr. Crooks fired and its inmediate surroundings.Forich (talk) 15:33, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Another update from CNN at https://edition.cnn.com/2024/08/10/politics/snipers-detail-breakdowns-trump-assassination-attempt-invs/index.html with some details that are not in the timeline yet:

1. ... he and other snipers were assigned to be inside the AGR building and directed to several windows on the second floor with a view of the entry area to the rally grounds and the stage where Trump would speak. A Butler sniper leader who met Nicol and his partners at the AGR building told them their mission was to look out those windows and scan the area for threats, Nicol said. They were instructed to remain covert. They set up their rifles on tripods so that the barrels were a foot or two inside the open windows to prevent them from being seen from outside.
2. “Units be advised internet and cell service is down,” an officer is heard saying at 5:48 p.m. on Butler’s radio. A minute later, a sheriff’s deputy radioed. “Your picture is probably not going to go through because I don’t have any service,”
3. Video discovered by the FBI shows Crooks pulling himself onto the roof of the AGR building at around 6:06 p.m. Shortly thereafter, a local law enforcement officer reported over the radio, “Someone’s on the roof. I have someone on the roof with white shorts.” A Butler supervisor then passed the information to the Secret Service command post at 6:09 p.m., according to the transcript obtained by the Post. The Hercules snipers covering Trump from above and behind the stage then turned to face the AGR property to the north.

Uwappa (talk) 09:50, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Which section can we edit to add Uwappa's # 1 CNN extract? Feels too detailed for timeline, perhaps? Forich (talk) 14:04, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

How about a new section: "security arrangements"? That new chapter will describe:

• security perimeter
• locations of officers, command posts
• responsibilities, instructions
• use of equipment such as drone, radios

Uwappa (talk) 14:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Good idea, let's draft it first a subsection of "Background" and go on from there.Forich (talk) 15:52, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

OK. Let's go for it and avoid overlap with current chapter Criticism_of_security_arrangements Uwappa (talk) 16:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

For the security perimeter, please have a look at page 11 of the security plan with the security zones in order of priority on the map. The AGR buildings were not marked as a priority, were not even on the map. Would it be allowed to include that map to illustrate the security perimeter? Is is free of copyright? Uwappa (talk) 11:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

Generally, works by the federal government are public domain. Secret Service is tied to a federal department, so it might be acceptable. Still, might be best to double check with MCQ to make sure it is in the clear. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Nevermind, it is Butler County ESU. Likely copyright of the state of Pennsylvania, unless there is a public domain program. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, pages 39-42 would likely be what we would want to use as they are higher quality, depending on if it is free of copyright issues. --Super Goku V (talk) 04:49, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Would the data be public? Would it be OK to recreate the map? Uwappa (talk) 04:55, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I would double check with MCQ as they likely have a better understanding than I do of Pennsylvania public domain. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:15, 21 August 2024 (UTC)