Talk:Afon Twymyn

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Requested move 21 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Calidum 19:59, 28 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Afon Twymyn → River Twymyn – The word 'Afon' is not normally used in English when talking about rivers in Wales but I am unable to move it myself.Tk420 (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC) Tk420 (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Tk420: Pro-Welsh-language people may query here. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:55, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose move Looking at Google Books, there are four books published in this century that contain "River Twymyn". There are six that contain "Afon Twymyn". Similarly there are zero news reports for "River Twymyn" and two for "Afon Twymyn". Railfan23 (talk) 17:07, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment This is turning out to be more controversial than I previously thought. I requested the move under the impression that the use of the word 'afon' in English is a colloquialism. According to Wikipedia:Manual of Style#National varieties of English the formal dialect (not colloquialisms) should be used if there are strong national ties to the topic. I understand the Welsh dialect of English does include loanwords from Welsh but the use of code-switching is mainly colloquial. I am however unsure if the use of the word 'Afon' is correct when naming a minor river in a formal letter, written in English, although I know the word 'nant' is used in the name of a stream e.g. Nant Gwernol. I have since noticed tributaries of the Dovey/Dyfi being referred to solely with the Welsh prefix 'Afon' in Ordnance Survey maps as opposed to the bilingual 'Afon/River' in the case of the Dovey/Dyfi. I wonder if this to avoid the need to use bilingualism if the name of the river is the same in both English and Welsh. I blame my confusion on not having an official guideline (not one I know of anyway) on whether to use the Welsh or English name for places in Wales and I admit it might be helpful to have one in Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(geographic_names)#United_Kingdom similar to Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Ireland-related_articles#Place_names. Tk420 (talk) 20:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Afon is not a "colloquialism", it is a Welsh language word. "National varieties of English" is a red herring. We are not talking about a "Welsh dialect of English", whatever that might mean. We are talking about the Welsh language. Places in Wales are usually named using the Welsh language, not some dialect of English. This is particularly true in the northern half of Wales, and is particularly true in recent decades, hence the move back from "Aberdovey" to "Aberdyfi". The Ordnance Survey has the river name as "Afon Twymyn" (see here. Given the stance of the ordnance survey and the predominance of Afon Twymyn, per WP:COMMONNAME, I think it is clear that the article should not be moved. Railfan23 (talk) 00:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

By Welsh English I mean the varieties of English specific to Wales. According to the article there is no standard variety of English specific to Wales and it describes a series of dialects. If the appropriate form of English is region-specific it looks like it would be appropriate to use the formal variety of the North Wales dialect. Given this is the English-language Wikipedia the usual policy is to use the name most familiar to English-speakers although there are allowances for strong national ties to a topic e.g. the use of Irish English in the Dublin article. So we must ask ourselves which name for the river would a local native English-speaker use in a formal conversation e.g. when writing a formal letter in English? Tk420 (talk) 13:59, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per the Ordnance Survey, it looks like the Welsh name is the common one here, compare this to Eilean Mòr which means "Island Big" but the Scottish Gaelic name is used on the English based OS so the WP:COMMONNAME would be the Gaelic, not English one. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:06, 22 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.