Talk:Afghanistan/Archive 11

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population

I suggest that the population will be accurate to the UN estimate (notes 190 and 191) or to the CIA world factbook estimate (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html) When you mention that Hazaras population is no more than 9% of Afghanistan population, let me understand you that the total population of Afghanistan is 38,920,000 and 9% makes only 3.5 million but we have more than 2 million of Hazaras only in Kabul while writing Pashton percentage is 42% while it is 33%.

Afghanistan Ethnic Groups

Afghanistan Ethnic Group Percentage

Ethnic Groups	Percentage
Pashton	33%
Tajiks	52%
Uzbeks	9%
Others	6%

— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZakiFrahmand1 (talk • contribs) 01:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Also see User talk:ZakiFrahmand1 The total population should be updated, but the ethnic total shouldn't, as I am not seeing any sources supporting your chart above. The relevant policies are WP:V and WP:OR. --Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 04:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

This chart is definitely original research and the user should be ashamed of trying to even suggest it being used in the article. Everyone knows Hazaras only make 7-9% so i have no idea where the 28% came from. Wikipedia is for reliable information using reliable sources, not to boast about the superiorty of your ethnic groupAkmal94 (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Helmand River-major mistake in the geography section

I'm not sure what the page should say here, but the Helmand River is most certainly not a tributary of the Indus. Blythwood (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2020

←←←←←←←

212.78.202.222 (talk) 10:14, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 10:32, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

Location

When u first search up Afghanistan it comes up as South asia. It should be central-south asia or south-central Lariys (talk) 18:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

You sorry Lariys (talk) 18:09, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Wardak Pashto

I need to upload some examples to Pashto dialects for Wardak dialect can someone pls upload Wardak audio with focus on ʝ [ږ] and ç [ښ]. Just copy the audio to my talk page PashtoAdder4 (talk) 03:28, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2020

Afghanistan is located in central Asia and some of its land is located in the middle east and south Asia but is mainly located in central Asia not south as when you google Afghanistan it takes a reference from Wikipedia saying it is located in south Asia when its not and most of its land and culture is central Asian. Mohammed4115 (talk) 23:29, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done. This page mentions Central and South Asia. Wikipedia has no control over the information showing up in Google. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:20, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2020

I want to change the second official language of Afghanistan from Dari to Persian. The reason being, the two languages are the same and the "Dari" is specifically used by the Pashtun majority to oppress and undermine the original ethnicity of the Tajik minority in Afghanistan. Dan5sh98 (talk) 03:49, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

We try to follow what reliable sources say. It also seems normal to follow the term used by the government for the parameter "Official language". – Thjarkur (talk) 09:30, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2021

Malayatriggerflu110 (talk) 20:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan is in Central Asia more than south Asia, we are not Desis and we do not claim to be one!

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seagull123 Φ 22:16, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

No. Pedro Lucas Silva (talk) 16:19, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Incorrect Pashtun Percentage

The ethnic percentages given do not add up to 100% which is probably due to Taliban/Pashtun propaganda. The article Demographics of Afghanistan gives more accurate data, including polling which was undertaken during the post Taliban period. I suggest an edit to change the Pashtun percentage to 48% or 37% depending on which result is considered more accurate

Demonym

There is a "note" attached to demonym which says that Afghani and Afghanistani are incorrect, however the references for these directly contradict that assertion.

I think either the article needs to be changed to reflect these other demonyms as "also exist" or better references are needed.

Semi-protected edit request on 14 April 2021

I want to do a small change, because there is a spelling mistake. Jackfruit92817 (talk) 11:00, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

It is written as "Muhammadun", But it is actually "Muhammadur". Jackfruit92817 (talk) 11:02, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:33, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2021

Please correct the language percentages its written 77 % Dari and 44% Pashto. While I’m in Afghanistan I can see everyone talks with Pashto language not Dari. As per my research I can say 67% Pashto and 46% Dari. Dari is only spoken in Kabul and some north zone while Pashto is spoken all over Afghanistan. 103.28.132.211 (talk) 12:31, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:36, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Provide reliable sources such as CIA World Factbook or other world websites. Pedro Lucas Silva (talk) 02:58, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

“the post-period” ?

A few lines before the start of the Democratic Republic regime and Soviet war subsection of the History section, there is this phrase: “the post-period.” Post what? Boscaswell talk 23:03, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, I changed to "post-war period". --Cerebellum (talk) 09:32, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2021

Curious if this would be relevant in the introduction as it is an interesting fact: The country with the highest percentage of Muslims is Afghanistan with 99.7%. This is my source: "The World Factbook". Cia.gov. Retrieved 14 February 2015. 49.193.55.9 (talk) 05:24, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

That is definitely interesting, and thank you for providing a source. The source does say that the percentage is 99.7%, but it does not say that that is the highest in the world - do you have a source for that claim? --Cerebellum (talk) 09:34, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2021

66.130.210.19 (talk) 05:25, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan is in Central Asia

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Melmann 09:45, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan is in South Asia. Sources: Google Pedro Lucas Silva (talk) 03:06, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Population

Is it 32 or 39 million? Many sources say its 39 nowadays... --Mats33 (talk) 08:58, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Cite error

In the Notes section there is a list defined note named "fn1". This is no longer in use and needs to either be commented out or deleted, as it currently causing a cite error. Thanks 92.5.2.97 (talk) 17:10, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Load lording

This page loads like a tired sloth, what gives?

Also, I did what the dude above me wanted. Horsesizedduck (talk) 17:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Because of the previous (Ghani) governments collapse, and the U.S., British and Canadian embassy staff evacuation, I would imagine it’s getting an enormous amount of page views.Juneau Mike (talk) 17:22, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 July 2021

central asia Gskov (talk) 02:44, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.Interesting Geek (talk) 04:08, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Province size

This sentence sounds a bit misleading: "Each province is the size of a U.S. county". The average area of a US county is 2,910 km2, while the average area of an Afghan province is 19,183 km2 (over six and a half times the area). Population wise the ratio is about 9:1 (nearly a million inhabitants per province versus just over 100k per county on average).143.176.94.161 (talk) 21:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Y Sentence removed, I agree relating provinces to US counties is inappropriate. Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:19, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2021

Change the "Government" section in the infobox to "Taliban-led provisional government." Yaqubrolliyah (talk) 17:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2021 (2)

Afghanistan has fallen and the president has fled the country. its not reflected in the article yet. Weezer1996 (talk) 17:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 August 2021 (3)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, Major changes to the page and everything. Wavin1979 (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 21:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021

ArthurDjangoek (talk) 00:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (2)

NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 05:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

"Durranis" in the lead text directs towards Durrani dynasty. Contextually it'd fit more to direct it towards Durrani Empire, can we change this? NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 05:03, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done That section of the lead lists dynasties that have sprung out of Afghanistan to create empires (most of the other links are also to dynasties). The Durrani Empire is linked in the infobox. BSMRD (talk) 05:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (3)

111.94.6.54 (talk) 06:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 06:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (4)

Falcon Heavu (talk) 06:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)• Fall of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan

15 August 2021

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 06:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (5)

Please correct the grammar mistake: "After the end Third Anglo-Afghan War ...." to "After the end of the Third Anglo-Afghan War..." Rosemann (talk) 11:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Thank you. --RegentsPark (comment) 12:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (6)

In the chapter on "Barakzai dynasty and British wars", the last sentence of the 4th paragraph reads: "Khan's wife Queen Soraya Tarzi was a figure during this period." It is unclear what this means. A figure for what ? According to her biography, I suggest "Khan's wife Queen Soraya Tarzi was an important figure during this period in the fight for womans education and against their oppression." Rosemann (talk) 11:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Jake Wartenberg (talk) 04:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (7)

2A02:8109:D80:36C0:A007:1279:AD7:C6B3 (talk) 14:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: edit request is blank — Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 15:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (8)

The flag of Afghanistan should be like the following picture. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/Afghanistan_Flag.jpg/800px-Afghanistan_Flag.jpg

Please make a correction for this. Alilomani (talk) 15:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Procedurally deactivating the edit request template, this topic is under discussion in multiple areas of this talkpage, so consensus should be sought there. CMD (talk) 15:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (9)

Change, "In October 2001, the United States invaded Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power after they refused to hand over Osama Bin Laden, who was a "guest" of the Taliban and was operating his al-Qaeda network in Afghanistan." to "In October 2001, the United States invaded Afghanistan to remove the Taliban from power after rejecting their offer to hand over Osama Bin Laden and try him in Afghanistan under Islamic law. Bin Laden was a "guest" of the Taliban and was operating his al-Qaeda network in Afghanistan."

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/10/07/ret.us.taliban/ Skulltra (talk) 18:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. —Sirdog9002 (talk) 20:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (10)

National Anthem Change National anthem infobox section to
De facto: None
De jure: Millī Sūrud Blurengo (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 20:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 August 2021 (11)

The flag of Afghanistan has not changed! We will never fall. Long live Afghanistan!!! 108.48.20.196 (talk) 20:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 21:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (2)

2A00:801:23D:CDA0:316B:BC53:5EE7:515C (talk) 10:27, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Blank request. Please re-open and place your request in the form of "change x to y" and provide reliable sources. Mgasparin (talk) 10:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (3)

This country stayed as a republic country not as emirat mtf

 Not done Please re-open your request in the form of "change X to Y" and provide reliable sources. Mgasparin (talk) 10:39, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

In the line:

Mongol invasions and conquests seriously depopulated large areas of Afghanistan

"seriously" should be changed to "drastically" or a more appropriate synonym as "seriously" is a less appropriate familiar / informal construction. Kurendor (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I just took the word out. What do you think? Jake Wartenberg (talk) 03:40, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Afgani flag removed

As per live footage from Al Jazeera, the Afgani flag has been removed from the presidential palace by a Taliban fighter probably to raise the Taliban flag --RazorTheDJ (talk) 18:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Its Afghan flag and second any changes must come after the Declaration and recognition of the Islamic Emirate as it will be reported by sources Jibran1998 (talk) 19:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Here we can see how the Taliban flag has been raised at the Ghazni provincial governor's house: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/claudiakoerner/taliban-afghanistan-biden Salvabl (talk) 20:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

cHANGE ARTICLE NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! its OUTDATED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 190.192.243.51 (talk) 21:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban flag is already being used in border crossings to represent Afghanistan and in cities under Taliban control. It is the de facto flag over most of Afghanistan except the very few towns still controlled by anti-taliban militias. It only makes sense to have it on the article. Brother Jerome (talk) 23:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

You can also give the Taliban fLag beside the original Afghani flag ~~ Unibeq (talk) 08:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

but that is just a flag for the group as every individual have their own mark or sign for identification but for Afghanistan the old flag is internationally accepted and as well as all afghan people want their old design flag which is black red and green🇦🇫 MonsterZac (talk) 21:37, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Please do not change our national flag 🇦🇫 which is accepted by all the nation of Afghanistan. The new flag belong to a group not for the entire country. Nasratullah Dawlatzai (talk) 23:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• The white flag represents the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, which is the dominant power in the region after winning the civil war. Their flag flies over the capital, the palace, and at the borders. The flag of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is now a historical flag. I sympathize with those who wish to see the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan's flag fly over the nation, but we need to accept the reality on the ground, even if it is deeply upsetting to many Afghans. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Edit

• Fall of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan 15 August 2021 Falcon Heavu (talk) 06:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Full protection

Please bring here full protection. The lead looks silly and without consensus, whole infobox is changed. Beshogur (talk) 17:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

​ See Wikipedia:Requests_for_page_protection.Manabimasu (talk) 17:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (5)

Sarzaminam (talk) 18:21, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan flag: 🇦🇫

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Ongoing political changes in Afghanistan

Currently the Taliban are looking more and more likely to take control of the country. If so, will we be changing this page to reflect these changes when they occur or will we wait for UN recognition, if that ever happens. Thanks. Kappasi (talk) 04:08, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I think we should change the page to reflect the changes as they occur- hypothetically even if the Taliban government isn't recognized they still would de facto be the government of Afghanistan and if the reliable sources are there we should update the page. Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 15:26, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

How long the lead should be?

It's tagged as too long, but look at the size of the page. MOS:LEAD is okay with proportionate leads like this one. Nowearskirts (talk) 06:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

The lead is a bit too long, but more significantly is disproportionately dedicated to summarising the History section, with three paragraphs dedicated to one of eight article sections. Cut that down to a more appropriate paragraph, and there is even room for a bit more expansion. CMD (talk) 07:21, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Languages Graph

The graph showing the percent of speakers of the various languages of Afghanistan (based off the CIA factbook source, numbered as 7 currently) is incorrect. It currently shows 78% of Afghans speaking Pashto and 50% speaking Dari Persian, whereas the quoted source shows the opposite.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:40d:4281:8670:b112:8f06:b45c:bab5 (talk) 20:33, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Ashraf Ghani

Reliable sources state that Ghani has fled the country. Why is he still listed as president? He clearly is no longer in power. Perhaps the position in the info bar should read, “unknown” or “disputed” or “vacant”. I’m retired from editing pages, but I feel for accuracy, this should be addressed. Thanks. Juneau Mike (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Leaving the country doesn't stop him from being President or still giving orders. Even though he may not be in Afghanistan anymore, plenty of people and governments see him as the President. WP needs relivable sources before it changes something like this ThinkingTwice ^{contribs | talk} 16:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

"This article's lead section may be too long for the length of the article"

The lead section is standard for an article about a nation. The template should be removed. Lochglasgowstrathyre (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Lead trimed as per #How long the lead should be?.--Moxy- 18:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Call for consensus on describing the state as the "Islamic Emirate" of Afghanistan

Given the rapid pace of the chaotic retreat of western forces from Afghanistan, and the ensuing collapse of the western-backed government security forces, it now seems likely that there will be a full Taliban takeover of the country. Without getting into WP:CRYSTAL territory, I thought it'd be a good idea to get a sense of what consensus should be on using the taliban's name for Afghanistan - namely the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan". In particular, should there be

1. . No mention of the new regime
2. . Mention the regime, but in self-source or "scare quote" format
3. . Describe the state as the islamic emirate
4. . other

69.172.145.94 (talk) 05:15, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 07:01, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Treat this as the same entity as the 1996-2001 ruling Emirate and the 2002-2021 Emirate during the civil war that we called the Taliban. Give a separate page for the former “Islamic Republic” that will shortly be in exile.

@2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3:, I do see that as a possibility - however given that this entity is unlikely to have widespread political recognition - one wonders if it'll end up in the same limbo as Taiwan - a de-facto state that nobody relevant recognizes. Wording may have to be added, and possibly this article added to the category on partially recognized states. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 07:24, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The previous government is a de-jure only. Afghanistan has been captured completely by the Taliban, therefore it sets the rule. This includes the flag, and the government structure. As an Encyclopedia, we must refelct the current situation, regardless what we believe is right.--Exx8 (talk) 08:41, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

While the IEA appears, per RS, to be in de facto control of the whole of the country outside a small section of central Kabul, events are too fluid. That said, I would support removing "officially the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" from the lead and replacing "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" in the infobox with just "Afghanistan". Chetsford (talk) 09:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think the page should be changed/reflect the Islamic Emirate of Afganistan in the following days as the Taliban declares its victory and the various countries begin to recognize the Emirate which should happen very quickly Jibran1998 (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Let's wait to see what happens in Kabul. Ghani is still president for now. We will likely know more very soon. On Wikipedia, we don't lead the sources, we trail them. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 10:42, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Tartan357, I agree with you Jibran1998 (talk) 11:18, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

This is inherently WP:CRYSTAL territory. We shouldn't call it anything until RSs start doing so - then we go with them. — Czello 11:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• If the capital is surrendered and a new country forms, I think we need to split this page. One which will be called “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan” which will be a historic article covering the history of the country from 2001 to 2021, and one called “Afghanistan” which will be the main article for the country and the texts will read “Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan” with the Taliban flag after Kabul is surrendered. The already-existing article for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan in the late 90s should be renamed to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001). The 20-year gap is way too long to use that article for the main country. ArabMan719 (talk) 11:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
• Ghani has now agreed to step down and talks have been announced over the creation of a Taliban-led transition government. It's likely we will get an official announcement later today or tomorrow. I think we should leave the article as is until an official announcement, given that the timeframe likely won't be long, so we can immediately put the details of this new government into the Infobox. At that stage we should call it the "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" in this article's intro and rename the current Islamic Emirate article into "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001)" as the user above suggested.--RM (Be my friend) 11:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  Do you have evidence for your claim that Ghani has now agreed to step down? ― Tartan357 ^Talk 11:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  It's been widely reported in the media.--RM (Be my friend) 14:31, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• I agree that the flag and name of the country on this page should be changed to correspond to that of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. This page should be for the current rulers of Afghanistan. Another page should be made for the Afghanistan that is about to cease to exist, similar to how there's been a separate one for the former IEA. SpicyBiryani (talk) 12:06, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• They're not the current rulers of Afghanistan, though. Given that there's going to be a transitional government, we're not entirely sure when they will be the rulers. Even then, we don't add their old flags/names until they do. It's speculative and WP:CRYSTAL to change it at this point. — Czello 14:35, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree we should hold off on changing the flag or name until we get something official but de facto they are the rulers of Afghanistan. The recognized Afghan government has fallen apart and President Ghani has fled the country.--RM (Be my friend) 16:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

De facto they may be, but de jure they're not (yet). Unless we get into a discussion about listing both in the infobox then I think it's too soon. — Czello 16:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Welp given that Kabul has fallen and president Ashraf Ghani and his staff have fled the country, it's clear that the IR afghanistan is now a state in name only. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 16:38, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The article should be definitely changed to reflect the fact that the Taliban is now ruling the country. Make this page a historical record of the Islamic republic and create a new one called “Afghanistan” but with “Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan” in the description and flag changes, etc. BakedGoods357 (talk) 18:16, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think it's a bit too soon to make changes to the flag, name, etc. All we know for certain is that an interim government is being formed; as of now, Afghanistan isn't under a de jure Taliban government. I agree with Czello. Piyo99 (talk) 23:54, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Why is the government listed as disputed?

The Taliban has basically full control over the country, the president has fled the country, the government is non existent. BakedGoods357 (talk) 00:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with BakedGoods357, the country is not disputed, it is undeniably under Taliban rule. The page should reflect that. Brother Jerome (talk) 01:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with BakedGoods357 & Brother Jerome as well, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has indisputably won the civil war. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004-2021)

Hi folks, I (and a few other editors) have created Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004–2021) to refer to the former government of Afghanistan as this article now refers to the Islamic Emirate. If you have some free time, feel free to join us in building out this article IntUnderflow (talk) 21:57, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Sounds good.....let's not blank sections here till we have new info on new governing strategy. Like a flag need to wait till we have official announcements.Moxy- 22:34, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Even upon an official announcement, it would be inappropriate to add the Taliban government to the infobox as an undisputed one unless it gains widespread recognition (unlikely). Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 23:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chessrat: would it be though? Unrecognized governments get their own undisputed infoboxes all the time. See South Ossetia, Transnistria, Taiwan, Somaliland and others. If the Taliban are the only real government in Afghanistan, they should get the Article. Any insurgencies that dispute that should not change that fact, just as the Taliban did not change that fact before. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:29, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

International recognition is important as it drives the reporting of reliable sources- for example, in the case of Crimea, whose article is written neutrally despite the de facto Russian control. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 00:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Notably, unlike the examples given by User:Serafart, Crimea is not and did not claim to be an independent country. Rather it is a territory disputed between Russia and Ukraine. BSMRD (talk) 00:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

In cases where there are two governments, the one that has control is usually given the article. See Abkhazia v.s. Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia Serafart (talk) (contributions) 00:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I suppose a better example might be the case of China, which was still considered very much disputed for decades following the Communist takeover of the mainland in 1949- and in fact Wikipedia had the China article as a neutral article rather than one about the People's Republic of China until 2011. The scenarios of Somaliland, Transnistria, etc, are somewhat different as they're not historic nations with a past beyond that of an unrecognized government. For the case of Afghanistan, it certainly makes sense to wait and see what the international community does first- whether a coherent government in exile is formed, what recognition there is, etc. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 01:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan continued to use their official name, continued to fly their flag over territory they controlled, and continued to enforce their laws from 2004 - 2021. It seems indisputable that they have regained total dominance in the region, they hold the palace, and the leader of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan fled the country. The fact that The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the government of Afghanistan is beyond serious dispute, regardless of our personal feelings on the matter. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 06:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This article should be merged into the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan

The Taliban seized Kabul and are soon going to declare the formation of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Not only that, but they've taken control of most of the country. Afghan President left the country and is in exile. Taliban in control of the Presidential Palace. It's increasingly clear that they're the primary authority in Afghanistan and will soon become the legal authority. This article needs a merge. The flag should also be updated to the flag of the Taliban. I am very saddened that I am have to say this, but it is what it is, I suppose. BurritoQuesadilla (talk) 21:37, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

This article will simply be update when reliable source are shown.....or if a new Constitution is proclaimed. SEE sections above for more details.Moxy- 21:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

https://www.businessinsider.com/taliban-victory-in-afghanistan-interim-government-planned-reports-2021-8BurritoQuesadilla (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Like Moxy, I think for now it's sufficient to leave it as is, and have the notice that it's involved in a current event. The situation could change rapidly in the coming days. We shouldn't make changes based on speculation. IF the Taliban declares the Emirate or IF they change the flag, we can make the necessary updates, but not before. e^π/💬 21:45, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The flag has been changed. Everywhere, the Afghan flag is lowered.BurritoQuesadilla (talk) 21:47, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

The IEA now controls over 90% of Afghanistan. Afghanistan is not a disputed territory any more than the now defunct Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was a disputed territory. If anything, Afghanistan is less disputed now, as the grip of the Taliban over the country is already stronger than the republic's ever was. Therefore the IEA article and the Afghanistan article should be merged, to accurately portray who rules over Afghanistan now. Brother Jerome (talk) 23:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Brother Jerome. Taliban have controlled significant territory for years and the article was never set as disputed. BakedGoods357 (talk) 00:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I also agree with Brother Jerome, the IR never completely defeated the IE and were constantly fighting to maintain their territory against IE incursions. The IR only existed during this Afghani Civil War just as the CSA only existed during the American Civil War. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Is Dari an official language of the Islamic Emirate?

It states that Dari & Pashto are official languages, however all of the translations are only in Pashto. — Preceding unsigned comment added by NaniEmperor (talk • contribs) 14:46, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wishy washy wording

Why are so many things being set to "disputed" instead of clarifying and updating it per the new government? Libya, Yemen, etc don't have this problem, and they're far more up-for-debate than Afghanistan where the old government is practically defunct and exiled. All the wishy-washy wording here comes off as significantly biased against the Islamic Emirate, where, intentionally or not, the wording undermines the legitimacy of the new de facto government in a way most other national articles don't. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 02:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Probably because no one has recognized the new government, not even other unrecognized states, so people are hesitant to lend WPs recognition. I suspect by the end of the week or being honest the end of tomorrow that won't be a problem anymore. BSMRD (talk) 02:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Possibly more pertinently, we would need a source saying what the new government is. CMD (talk) 03:09, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to refer to themselves by that official name during the entire civil war, and have enforced their laws as though they were. The IEA continuously held ground, operated as a government, and waged civil war against the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. What we need is a source citing Ashraf Ghani fleeing the country and his military surrendering/ defecting. 2004 - 2021 was a contested period, but the dispute over which government was legitimate has been resolved. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

No, the government isn't resolved yet. The UN had not regconize them. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 14:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Should there be a mention of the government-in-exile in the infobox?

I feel that some mention should be made of the government-in-exile in the infobox, which is currently still recognised by most of the international community. Certainly the article should be clear that the Taliban has de facto control of the country, but we should also mention that their status is far from undisputed. There is precedent for such a situation, as well; the article on Venezuela makes mention of Juan Guaidó's's claim to the presidency in the infobox. --LordNimon (talk) 15:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Is there even a government in exile? My impression is that the recognized government just completely dissolved and doesn't exist in any form anymore. I haven't read anything about the officials who escaped abroad setting up a government in exile.--RM (Be my friend) 15:14, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

You are probably correct, although I still feel that some mention should be made of the fact that the Taliban's position is not internationally recognised. --LordNimon (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah the government collapsed [1]. I do think it's prudent to still mention the old government in the infobox because the situation is rapidly changing. The old government and international community is still in talks with the taliban to sort stuff out, including "government name and structure".(TOLO news) —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 16:45, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not news!

This article has gotten out of hand, with several users completely ignoring WP:NOTNEWS. Before a new government is even installed, WP is proclaiming who is the head of state, what is the flag etc. These are flagrant violations of WP:NOTNEWS - not only are we now trying to be news, we're trying to be ahead of the news. Wikipedia should come after the news. Removing a bunch of WP:NOTNEWSviolations. Jeppiz (talk) 20:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Also, the Taliban didn't even declare the "Islamic Emirate" yet. Beshogur (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly. I try to assume good faith, but users who keep adding this seems to border on the disruptive. Being ahead of the actors themselves, ahead of the news, not to mention ahead of the reliable sources... This really has to end. Jeppiz (talk) 20:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This is not news. The Taliban don't need to declare the Emirate, the Emirate has existed all this time. The name of their government that they have been running that bow controls the country is the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. And the white flag is already being used in news stations, border crossings and government buildings across Afghanistan. Ie: this is the Afghan flag now. The tricolor flag is that of a government that is now defunct. There was already a consensus decided on the flag that this article should use,reached twice, by the way, and a consensus on how this article should be about the current afghan government, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.

Source on the flag: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E87w4j2XoAY-H41?format=jpg&name=large https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/h_57044018.jpg?resize=770%2C513 https://i.tribune.com.pk/media/images/2201823-taliban-1626243678-925-640x4801626248031-0/2201823-taliban-1626243678-925-640x4801626248031-0.jpg

This is where consensus was reached: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Afghanistan#Reaching_consensus_on_whether_to_make_the_%22Afghanistan%22_article_about_the_Islamic_Emirate

Brother Jerome (talk) 20:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

No, that is not correct. A fast consensus is reached over a week. There has been no "consensus" whatsoever on any of these aspects. Once again, the problem here is that some users appear unaware of what Wikipedia is and what it is not. Take a look at Afghanistan at Encyclopaedia Britannica. That is our reference, not news outlets. Jeppiz (talk) 20:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

[2] "The Taliban are expected to announce their takeover from the palace, renaming the country as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan."

So, they haven't announced it yet. RS have said that the previous government collapsed, but there isn't a new one yet. I think it would be best to avoid stating any kind of definitive government structure for now; there simply isn't one. Describing a Taliban government structure is beyond NOTNEWS; it's WP:CRYSTAL territory. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 21:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes. The previous government has collapsed, the Taliban are in control, but they have not formed a government yet to be the government of Afghanistan (and are in talks to do so, per TOLO news). Talking about a government of the Taliban, especially naming a leader, is definitely WP:CRYSTAL. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

They never stopped being a state, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as the same entity with a greatly reduced sphere of influence during the entire civil war. The name applied to the Afghan region is once again the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Emotions are running high, but lets try to be objective and handle things consistently. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 22:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We need to see RS say that that is the new name of the country. That's a perfectly valid point to make, please don't try to undermine peoples' arguments by suggesting they're the product of "emotion". ― Tartan357 ^Talk 23:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Technically speaking it's the old name for the country, and I've provided RS to support my argument. I'm simply stating that everyone is effected by the inherent emotionally charged nature of civil war and dominance shifts, many people speaking on this matter live in the region or know people who do. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 23:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

References

We are missing an article on State Department's Afghanistan Task Force

see Tracey Ann Jacobson the head of the new task force. Some info is found at Alex Thompson and Tina Sfondeles, "Afghanistan blame game" POLITICO Aug 16, 2021 and also Lara Seligman, "Biden directs evacuation flights for Afghan interpreters to begin late July" POLITICO July 14, 2021 Rjensen (talk) 00:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

GDP

the sentence on GDP in the lead section should only mention the nominal GDP (or at least first), the PPP figure gives a massively distorted view, inflating its position by 100. The PPP figure is already mentioned in the Economy section. Afghanistan has one of the worlds lowest GDPs and putting that sentence in the lead section is misleading. jonas (talk) 01:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Disputed government?

I think there is now consensus that Ghani has resigned as president and no longer claims the title, so now there should no longer be any dispute. Article should be updated to reflect that.

I think the status of "disputed" is the best for now, and it's the nation itself that was disputed, in which between the IRF and IEF. Also you need to provide the source to that claim. 海之 12:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

There's no IRA anymore that would dispute the government or the country with the IEA. The IEA now is the undisputed controller of Afghanistan. Keeping the page in this strange limbo is pointless. The IEA and Afghanistan pages should be merged. Brother Jerome (talk) 13:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban has not yet Proclaimed the IEA, they're still preparing it, in which means it hasnt been enstablished (yet). Which means, the situation itself was a limbo. And Before we got a relevant source to the exact news that you were stating above. The "Disputed" Section must be kept in place. 海之 14:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Nevermind lol, i think i agree with your point anyway  Agreed

The IEA declared the emirate in 1996 and has continued to maintain that they are the emirate ever since so it wouldn't make since to declare it again. The IEA is a continuous and singular entity, or at the very least that is their perspective so they have nothing to announce. Their flag is also the only flag flying over Afghanistan so by the metric of held territory they are also confirmed to be the current government ruling over all of Afghanistan. And RL have already reported on the name change as well --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:05, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021 (4)

In the 6th line of the 2nd paragraph, it would be more specific to put "Many empires have established capitals in what is now Afghanistan, including the Greco-Bactrians, Kushans, Indo-Sassanids, Kabul Shahi, Saffarids, Samanids, Ghaznavids, Ghurids, Kartids, Timurids, Hotakis and Durranis." Tjkali00777 (talk) 12:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The changes are not supported by the current sourcing. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The current sources attached in the present sentence doesn't state many empires mentioned there, for example the Mughals emerged from what is now Uzbekistan. It would be more specific to replace it with "Many empires have established capitals in what is now Afghanistan, including the Greco-Bactrians, Kushans, Indo-Sassanids, Kabul Shahi, Saffarids, Samanids, Ghaznavids, Ghurids, Kartids, Timurids, Hotakis and Durranis." Source: [[3]]

So….will there be a separate page for “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan” to represent this government in past tense, OR will this page be renamed that and the “Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan” page is renamed to “Afghanistan” and merged with info from this one and the Taliban page since it’s the same government as the 90s one.

Title. Which order are we doing this in?

Also, just for the record, I say we treat the 1996-2001 Islamic Emirate as the same government as the one that’s about to be restored to power, and just show they were out of power from 2002-2021. Like in that part of the info bar it’s “1996-2001, 2021-present”, and we treat it as one continuous entity that was outed from power only to take it back once the civil war ended.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3d09:1f80:ca00:31c8:9f3c:4939:ffa3 (talk) 05:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

• I think we need to split this page. One which will be called “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan” which will be a historic article covering the history of the country from 2001 to 2021, and one called “Afghanistan” which will be the main article for the country and the texts will read “Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan” with the Taliban flag after Kabul is surrendered. The already-existing article for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan in the late 90s should be renamed to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001). The 20-year gap is way too long to use that article for the main country. ArabMan719 (talk) 11:26, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 15:21, 15 August 2021 (UTC) It is the same continuous entity though. The Taliban is the 96-2001 Emirate, and the Taliban is what’s about to take power. They never stopped calling themselves the Islamic Emirate.

That's asinine. Make Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001) then Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (2021-present) for this one. That is the truth, IP alphabet soup. 2604:3D09:37F:E110:2892:4C59:67D0:B1CC (talk) 23:17, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

It’s kinda like if Taiwan suddenly retook all of China. Would we call them the same entity as the pre-49 Republic of China?

Keep the page and change the details to the new Emirate, create a new article titled Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2001-2021) Sgnpkd (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I believe that should be four separate pages.

1. Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan (1996-2021) About the time when Taliban was in power.

2. Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2001-2021) About the government that just collapsed.

3. Afghanistan About the country. Mentions all history, including all past and current regimes.

4. Taliban About the insurgency of the IEA up until they retake Afghanistan. Hadwin321 (talk) 03:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Typo correction: 1. Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan (1996-2001) About the time when Taliban was in power. Hadwin321 (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We Shoulda proveide a new drop-down article named the islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Unibeq (talk) 08:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This article should be split. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan should be a page which refers to the historical country between 2001 to 2021. And another should be Afghanistan which would refer to the new Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. But I am not sure whether we should take this new Afghanistan's timeline from 2021 or 1996. GucciNuzayer (talk) 11:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion this page should remain as Afghanistan because it is the country's name and this page is about the country (geological location, demographics, economy, infrastructure, culture doesn't necessarily depend on the government). Of course in the history and/or government section, the leading governments and the changes of them should be stated. The change between the Islamic Emirates of Afghanistan and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is similar to a change between a Democrat party and a Republican party. Of course a lot of things will change but it is still the same country just with a different leading "party". Unless it is recognised by most of the countries I don't think the two should be considered the same. BnC78 (talk) 16:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

When should the switch be made?

With the fall of Kabul and Ghani leaving the country, “transition of power” is already very much floating out there. The IR is de facto no longer in control of most of the country and I imagine will probably be limited to a few towns and cities the Taliban hasn’t gotten around to driving over to yet by the time I wake up in a few hours. When should the article be updated to reflect that - when the old government recognizes it (if ever), or when they declare it (in a couple hours max), or something else? Juxlos (talk) 16:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Yep. Good idea, let's add the Taliban flag to the page now. Change approved (by me) Nate Hooper (talk) 17:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's flag is flying over the capital again, and the IR's president fled the country, so the sooner the better. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:58, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We are waiting for official word [4].Moxy- 06:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Taliban take entire country

How do we rewrite this article? Taliban have now taken Kabul and are agreeing with the govt a "peaceful takeover" National anthem will be removed as music would be banned, and would probably become an Islamic Emirate. The incumbent president Ghani has been forced to leave the country and media outlets are assuming the interim president will be Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, which is actually looking likely as reports he is being flown to Kabul. I did attempt an edit but it was reverted. Eck (talk) 13:44, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

We wait for WP:Reliable sources to specifically note various items, such as for example if the anthem is removed, the various political positions, and then reflect those sources. CMD (talk) 13:58, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Going off the last time the Taliban were in power from 96 to 01 they banned all music and had no anthem so it isn't entirely a leap. Eck (talk) 14:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah but its been almost 20 years since they last ruled, we can't be sure of how they'll behave now. Best to wait and see what they do.--RM (Be my friend) 14:33, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think they arent the same as they were before, more than 20 years ago, they were very very extremist. But now i think they changed tone a bit. So it would be possible that they abandoned that ideas. 海之 12:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

See also this talk page - Talk:Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan#Rename page to “Afghanistan”, merge with Taliban, and rename current Afghanistan article to “Islamic Republic of Afghanistan”Manabimasu (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Good joke 😂they are exactly the same and we will find out for sure soon. Already we are hearing they are reverting to their ols brutal ways with beheadings in the North and beating anyone who was a family member of someone who served in the Afghan govt. This is a powerplay. They are hoping by being diplomatic they won't get bombed again. Eck (talk) 20:56, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2021

Add the Taliban flag for the flag of Afghanistan as that is what is now 81.96.175.138 (talk) 20:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Switching to IEA

Hi folks,

The Taliban claim they will soon declare an Islamic Emirate of Afganistan (https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2021/aug/15/afghanistan-taliban-close-in-on-kabul-as-last-government-stronghold-in-north-falls), when this declaration is made, I think that as they have de-facto control of the entire country we should then switch the article.

What do other folks think about this?

Following on from that, I'd also like to open a discussion about how to switch the article, I'm thinking:

1. Start a new article for the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan which was in power up to the end of today

2. Edit this article to refer to the IEA that the Taliban are expected to declare

Is there any other cleanup we'll need to do?

All views appreciated :)

IntUnderflow (talk) 17:09, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

IntUnderflow I think an article for Afghanistan during the first two decades of the 21st century makes sense but it should probably be made as a draft to start with to preserve older information and only be realised into the main space as sections of this article substantially change. As for developing this article, the history section should in my view be updated first and other sections can be changed to reflect the new situation as it becomes more clear. Llewee (talk) 17:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Hey folks, I've started forking this Article to describe the (soon to be former) country in Draft:Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2001–2021), please join me there if you'd like to help build out a new article on the country from 2001 to 2021 :)

IntUnderflow (talk) 17:27, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I think that's a good way of dealing with it, though we should still adhere to WP:CRYSTAL. When WP:RS say that there is a new government, then the article may be updated to reflect that and the draft could be moved to mainspace. Gust Justice (talk) 17:32, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with that, I think since the writing appears to be on the wall the current draft is just a good space for us to get an article up to scratch and ready to go in the likely (but not confirmed hence not in mainspace) event that the current government ends today or in the next few days 👍 IntUnderflow (talk) 17:36, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

GucciNuzayer (talk) 08:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I think yes, we should switch the Afghanistan article to the IE. Afghanistan. Like how Romania would have been switched from Communist Romania (if Wikipedia existed back then). IEA is the current government of Afghanistan, the process of switching should be started.

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page is pretty much set up, we should redirect Afghanistan there once editors are satisfied with the stability of the situation. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:43, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Flag

The Taliban widely use their flag as a national flag in a way, should that be on this page? --BlinxTheKitty (talk) 22:13, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

​You may mean merging with IEA. We can’t until we have reliable sources.Manabimasu (talk) 22:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I didn't say merge articles, I said add a flag, my point is they widely use their movements flag as a provisional national flag like they did with the IEA in the 90's, I don't mean merge articles --BlinxTheKitty (talk) 22:30, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the white flag with the shahada has been used continually by the Taliban and is displayed in cities and towns that they control. Brother Jerome (talk) 23:04, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

So no source for any official change as of yet correct?Moxy- 23:27, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Brother Jerome, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan never even held total control of Afghanistan. The IEA has continued to enforce their laws and fight the IRA for territory from 2004 to 2021 and have now indisputably won the civil war, the white flag with the shahada should be used and the idea that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan was ever legitimate is disputable at best. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I have seen live footage of a Taliban fighter hoisting the Taliban flag instead of the current one. It was on Al-Jazeera, so I hope it is reliable. But problem is: should we change the Afghan flag to the Taliban's flag or should we wait it out until we reach consensus? Vulcan300 (talk) 23:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Has there been an announcement for a new flag....or our we guessing that their flag will be the new flag of the country?Moxy- 23:56, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

They would have no reason to randomly change the flag they used consistently for over 20 years since they first had total control over the control. They have always seen themself as a state instead of a group, which is why they have always referred to themself as IEA. BakedGoods357 (talk) 00:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

No idea why the green red and black flag is still there, that is not the flag of Afghanistan anymore. The state that used that flag is now defunct. Afghanistan only has one flag now and it is the white flag with the black shahada. Brother Jerome (talk) 01:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, there shouldn't be these wishy-washy "well this is disputed" blurbs because that's a government-in-exile. We don't have anything like this for Iran, which also has a government-in-exile that kept its' old flag. NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 02:33, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Afghanistan flag that is recognized by the international organization and all countries is 🇦🇫. No one can claim that the flag has been changed until United Nation and all the countries recognize the Taliban government. Sarzaminam (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Only one flag flies over the capital, at the borders, and at government buildings. The white flag of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the flag of Afghanistan at this time, as upsetting as that is for those who support the now defunct Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Nowhere in the twitter post citing the design used on the page does it cite that this is in any way the new flag of the taliban. The text on the flag reads "Da Afghanistan Islami Amarat" and it seems like this is simply the emblem of the IE of afghanistan on a white background.

Reaching consensus on whether to make the "Afghanistan" article about the Islamic Emirate

There have been several discussions on this topic so I thought I would collate them into one thread, and label the main options, to aid in discussion. There are currently three articles: this one, Islamic Republic of Afghanistan, and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Note that it probably makes sense to wait a few days for things to become clear to decide on which of these options to do, or something else entirely.

Possible options:

• A) Keep the article showing the government as "disputed". Infobox uses both flags and describes both claimant governments. Current situation.
• B) Make the article focused on the nation of Afghanistan, moving information about the government into the other two articles. Infobox would use neither flag and could in fact be changed from the traditional "country" infobox.
• C) Make this article about the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. Use the Islamic Emirate/Taliban flag and describe its government in the infobox.
• D) Have this article be about the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan in exile. Use the Islamic Republic flag, go by international recognition. This is the least likely option and I include only for the sake of completeness.

Personally, I support option B. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 01:24, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C It is de-facto established. Kamikazechaser (talk) 16:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has won the civil war, and the Islamic Republic has been reduced to an insurgency and a government in exile. In the same way that the Islamic Republic was used for the article from 2004 to 2021, even though the Islamic Emirate claimed authority, the Islamic Emirate should now be used for the article. Serafart (talk) (contributions) 01:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

C. Every other article about a country, even unrecognized ones, includes the government as obviously that is a major part of the country. Ignoring this just causes confusion and doesn’t do any good. BakedGoods357 (talk) 01:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C makes the most sense. There is no point in having one page about the country and one page about the emirate, when it is now one and the same. Brother Jerome (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment-​ can you start a WP:RFC for wider visibility?Manabimasu (talk) 01:59, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment Done, hope I did it right. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 02:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C Split the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article. One article shall be Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) while this Afghanistan article can be significantly reworded and become the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page.ElderZamzam (talk) 02:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• A, for the moment Though it is clear that the republic is out and the Emirate is in, for the moment things are very much in flux. Until things settle a little, we should be equivocal. BSMRD (talk) 02:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C - It is a fact that the Taliban (who describe themselves as the IEA) are in total de-facto control of Afghanistan, regardless of de-jure law of the Islamic Republic which as a country has practically ceased to exist, we should report on the current de-facto administration of the country as that is what people will most likely be looking for in the future when looking up Afghanistan on Wikipedia. I'd also refer to WP:BOLD and WP:WEATHERMAN on this. IntUnderflow (talk) 02:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C per ElderZamzam; this isn't like Libya where the government is still realistically up for debate, it's become clear this week that the old government is entirely out of the window as being any sort of official government post-August NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 02:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C in the long term the current emirate article can become about the 1996 to 2001 state. However it's probably best to wait until the situation is slightly more stable or at least until the new government is formally declared before making significant changes. Llewee (talk) 03:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C If the 2004-2021 government didn’t need a separate article while in power, this one doesn’t either Benica11 (talk) 04:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C This article is the "main" one and should correspond to the current situation in Afghanistan. The ancient history and geography should remain here while the flag, name, government and anthem should be updated to that of the Taliban. Just like we have separate articles solely dedicated to previous countries such as Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (where the content is focused only on how the government came to power and was overthrown), there could be another article called Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004-2021) for the Kabul administration that was just overthrown. SpicyBiryani (talk) 04:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C - The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has indisputably won the civil war and never ceased to enforce their laws on the people, use their name, or use their flag during said war. The 2004 - 2021 dispute over the legitimate government of the region has been settled. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Premature See RfC below. What is being formed....who is in charge ..etc.Sources?Moxy- 05:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C would make the most sense as, even if they are not recognised by the UN, they are the de facto controllers of the country adn this article should be representative of this fact similarly to how the Kosovo article is about the Republic of Kosovo instead of the Serbian region. --Kappasi (talk) 08:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C, although presumably we shouldn't make the change until the Taliban formally declares the emirate. --Cerebellum (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C, although noting that most of this article's sections will be unchanged, apart from "Governance", since they refer to the country as a whole in whatever guise. (It's possible that Economy might also change with the new regime, but too early to tell on that yet). So in a sense Option B as well, but of course the article should include the nation's current flag and details of the political situation.  — Amakuru (talk) 11:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C, they control the country, have won the civil war, and have operated as a government this entire time.BurritoQuesadilla (talk) 16:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment I think we should close this topic and agree on Option C per WP:SNOW IntUnderflow (talk) 18:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option C, Wikipedia should reflect the real situation. Governor Sheng (talk) 21:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Option A and this topic should not be closed due to the fact that the transition of power is still ongoing. Yes the Taliban has de facto control but they have not declared their new government yet. We should continue to regard the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as defunct in other articles because the truth of the matter is that is defunct. However we should not officially call Afghanistan the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan because that government does not exist at this moment and calling it such would be misleading and false. Once they declare it the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan then it should be represented as such in the article but for now it should be considered disputed. JackyTheChemosh (talk) 21:34, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Comment: I think a distiction needs to be made between the group controlling Afghanistan and the actual government of Afghanistan. The former is known, the latter just collapsed and the former hadn't set it up yet, in talks to do so. (Note: I also have a rationale supporting A in the RfC below.) —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:44, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

AP news also stated today "The Taliban say they want to form an “inclusive, Islamic government” with other factions. They are holding negotiations with senior politicians, including leaders in the former government," indicating a government had not yet been formed even though the Taliban does control Afghanistan. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Your source misunderstood what is meant by "inclusive", they were referring to a government which is inclusive to women, not other factions. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Anthem of the Emirate

For the anthem box, I do not think it should be left as "not known", especially as there is no official anthem for Afghanistan due to the fact that the Taliban either already have or probably will ban music as haram within the country. It should be changed to "none - music is banned in the country" or just "none".

TheTrainCrazyMan (talk) 14:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• They have not confirmed that there will be no anthem, and it is currently unknown what they are defining as music currently. Even among fundamentalist Muslims it isn't uncommon for acapella renditions of religious or patriotic materials to not be considered music (similar to how fundamentalist Christians don't view hymns as music.) The IEA very well have an anthem which we would may consider music but they would not. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

There are IEA/ Taliban videos with people singing nasheeds, so they don't seem to consider them haram --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 11:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The best case scenario would be if the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan released a video declaring the nation's official naheed. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:06, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Stop editing the tricolor back in

That flag is not the flag of Afghanistan anymore. There may be a government in exile that uses it now, that's great for them. This article is not about the government in exile, but about the country of Afghanistan, which is now using the white flag with the black shahada on border crossings and over government buildings. That that is the flag of Afghanistan now is a fact. Brother Jerome (talk) 15:20, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban government is unrecognized by the UN and the UN recognition of the Taliban government will never happened because it would not allow a government that is formed by force. Did you see what happened to all capitals of all provinces? SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 15:35, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That's irrelevant. What's relevant is that that flag flies in no major city anymore. The Taliban are in control of all the major cities. And the UN recognizes governments "formed by force" all the time. Every country that had a government change via civil war has been fully recognized by the UN, as was the previous Afghan regime which was formed by force.BurritoQuesadilla (talk) 16:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

We don't have to wait for the UN or rely on the UN before recognising a de-facto reality, we base our articles on WP:RS and multiple reliable sources are stating that the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan no longer exists. IntUnderflow (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Based on support on this topic and the topic "Why two flags?" I'm going to be WP:BOLD and remove the old flag IntUnderflow (talk) 18:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

UN recognition is irrelevant. Somaliland it's also not UN and recognized, or Transnistria. Brother Jerome (talk) 16:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree, and also the Kosovo article is good example. 178.221.112.216 (talk) 16:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

There are RL showing that the white flag of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the one currently representing Afghanistan. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have always maintained that they are the government of the region and were engaged in a civil war until they raised their flag over the capital once again. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 23:38, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

If the tri color is no longer shown in cities, we shouldnt wait for the UN. We know it will stay like that. Change it now. ChocFrosted (talk) 04:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Zabihullah Mujahid (Taliban Spokesman) stated that the Afghan population will decide the Afghan flag issue. The one used by Taliban is only used by members of the Taliban. --39.41.4.158 (talk) 20:03, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I haven't seen any citations for the above assertion, and we have citations showing the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's flag flying over the capital, government buildings, and at the borders. At this time the white flag of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the Afghan flag. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Why two flags?

The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan no longer exists: its President has fled the country and the Afghan Armed Forces and the Afghan National Police are no longer active. There isn't even a government-in-exile, the Afghan government has simply dissolved with everyone fleeing into different countries. It is true, the restoration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has not yet occured, but it will be a matter of days, if not hours.--Karma1998 (talk) 15:54, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if the Islamic Emirate was not restored in one year... the Islamic Republic no longer exists, therefore, its flag should not continue in the article. Is there a Serbian flag in the Kosovo article?? (and in that case, the Republic of Serbia does exist). The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan's article says "was an Islamic republic that governed ...". It is not about our opinions, or whether or not we like the situation. It is a fact, and also a matter of uniformity within Wikipedia. Salvabl (talk) 16:18, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with that, and yes the Kosovo article is one good example. 178.221.112.216 (talk) 16:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree. The article should reflect only the current flag and government of Afghanistan. The tricolor and the old seal are history now. Brother Jerome (talk) 16:21, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd: just to know: if the international community does not recognize the Taliban for the next 20 years, what are we going to do? Keep the flag and emblem of a dead Republic on Wikipedia permanently?--Karma1998 (talk) 17:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Take a look at Yemen for example, the president had to be in exile when the Houthis capture Sana'a. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 17:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd: Not exactly the same situation: Hadi's government currently controls great part of Yemen. Ghani's government no longer even exists as a government.-Karma1998 (talk) 18:25, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, it's not the same. For years the Taliban have controlled areas of Afghanistan. However, the Taliban flag has never been on this article. And I see it coherent. The Islamic Republic continued to exist. But not now. For that reason, its flag no longer has a place here. Salvabl (talk) 20:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Only one flag currently flies over Afghanistan --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 22:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Zabihullah Mujahid (Taliban Spokesman) stated to the international media that the Afghan people will decide the Afghan flag issue. In many places around Afghanistan the colorful flag is still flying.--39.41.4.158 (talk) 20:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I've seen no citations for the above assertion, but I have already cited that the white flag of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan flies over the capital. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:12, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Change Republic of Afghanistan to Emirate of Afghanistan

These are two different governments and one has defeated the other in a war. So, should we change it? ChocFrosted (talk) 04:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan is still in a transitionary period. We can't call it an Emirate until it's official, really. — Czello 07:12, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's page should be ready to be redirected to once the transition is complete. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:15, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Remove disputed government

People are assuming that there is a government is exile for IRA simply because IEA isn’t recognized. This simply isn’t the case and editors are jumping ahead of themselves before any official announcements. Officials fleeing the country does not mean they have formed a gov in exile, and therefor IEA is the only entity with a claim on the country. IRA simply no longer exists. BakedGoods357 (talk) 14:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I suspect this article & related articles will be influx for quite a few days, before the dust settles. GoodDay (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah IEA should be considered de-facto government of Afghanistan. As per the press conference they will be forming a govt asap. As it stands right now, it is Taliban martial law. Kamikazechaser (talk) 16:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

For my part, I agree that there are no reasonable pretenses under which we might suppose the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is still a functioning or extant entity. There is no government-in-exile and no potential on its part to exercise authority over any part of Afghanistan. The IEA should be listed as the de-facto government, rather than sharing a disputed status with the former Republic. Tennosenna (talk) 17:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Republic is still in control in Panjshir. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 18:47, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chessrat Panjshir has always been controlled by an independent militia, not either group. BakedGoods357 (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Even if the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan were in control of Panjshir, there were several times when the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan controlled far more territory than that. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is at most a Government in exile, but if so then the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan would have been as well during the 20 year civil war. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:24, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Removing Regime Specific Information

The article still lists regime specific infomation such as Afghanistan being part of the UN and the OIC. I feel that it would be sensible to move this information and other such examples to the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan's page.--Kappasi (talk) 15:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

That should only be done if reliable sources say so. I am pretty sure that membership of the UN is country-based and not regime specific. It might, however be useful to perhaps remove the references to the lead until those organizations recognize the Taliban-led government. Especially since UN membership isn't the most important information about the country. Gust Justice (talk) 16:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with moving all regime specific information to their respective regime's pages (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan/Islamic Republic of Afghanistan). --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:27, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Change in flag of Afghanistan.

It's still the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan not Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. So it's humble request that remove the New changes in Wikipedia of Afghanistan and also remove the white flag.please! MunawarShah1319 (talk) 07:55, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Ayyy if u see the news headlines the new name has been declared Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan ~~ Unibeq (talk) 08:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has been in a civil war against The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan since 2004, and the civil war has ended. The IEA has regained dominance in the region. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 09:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Sadly, its time to remove the colorful flag since it no longer represents the country. What a shame 2604:2D80:6304:C00:FD61:E241:3E83:30CE (talk) 09:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is defunct, and Wikipedia already reflects this. The only flag that should be in the page is the white flag with the black shahada: the flag of Afghanistan. Brother Jerome (talk) 13:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Zabihullah Mujahid (Taliban Spokesman) stated that the Afghan population will decide the Afghan flag issue. I suggest leaving the colorful flag.--39.41.4.158 (talk) 20:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a citation on this? The white flag currently flies over the capital, at the borders, and at government buildings, so from what is clearly visible on the ground the white flag currently represents Afghanistan. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

What is the current consensus regarding the flag usage? I noticed that in most infoboxes for localities in Afghanistan, the Taliban flag has been added? ElderZamzam (talk) 02:51, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Should the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan be treated as a continuous entity from 1996, or treated like two separate things.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This seems to be a big topic of debate at the moment, so let me state the cases.

The case for treating them separately is it reduces the clutter of sorting it all, allows finding specific points in time easier, and would probably be easier on the editors.

The case against is that the Islamic Emirate never ended. It’s been the same continuous organization since 1996, they just lost power for a while. Putting aside modern thinking and looking at this from a historic perspective, the War in Afghanistan was a civil war, where the ruling Emirate temporarily lost power in the capital, but eventually retook their control. We don’t treat Assad after making a comeback from the brink as a separate entity.

I get it would require a bit more work, but I am fully of the belief that treating them as the same entity, and giving them one page, would be the wisest from a historic perspective. Perhaps marking the section on the government in three phases,, Pre-Intervention Era(Inheriting from the Islamic Emirate page governance sectionnow) Insurgency(inheriting from the Taliban governance section) and then post return to be written soon. Perhaps marking the infobox of Afghanistan with “1996-2001, 2021-present”, both denoting it’s the same entity, and that they lost central power for a while.

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 18:41, 15 August 2021 (UTC) TLDR, while it’s awkward in a current perspective, with the premature victory and the war predating Wikipedia, from a zoomed out historical perspective, there was a 20 year long civil war with foreign intervention where the government that existed previously eventually won after many temporary bumps and losses along the way. The Islamic Republic never won, they held power in the capital for 19 years during a civil war. The Islamic Emirate was there at the start, and eventually won said civil war. No break in continuity as an organization. Thereby, the 1996 Emirate and the one about to retake Kabul, are the same entity, and should be treated as such.

I take the new Taliban as a more 'westernized' Taliban, hoping that they'll take in considerable lessons from the 20 years they've been out of government power.--RazorTheDJ (talk) 19:02, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree too. They should be treated as separate entities considering the gap here is significant (20 years) and most of the previous IEA leaders are probably dead. Kamikazechaser (talk) 19:07, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Slight changes in policy are not enough to make current IEA an entirely separate entity

I don't see an easy way to bridge the 1996-2001 IEA and the 2021 IEA without making a complete mess of the Wikipedia page. For one, the 1996-2001 IEA page is kind of short, presumably due to the lack of internet and coherent history during that period in Afghanistan. The 2021 IEA page will be much longer due to the heightened availibilty of information. Trying to merge the two would make a page that appears disproportianately in favor of the 2021 IEA. And they are two different regimes, with different people involved. Even if they do have similar policies, they are fundementally two distinct entities. Although know that I think about this more, this is like the Ship of Theseus. Nmurali02 (talk) 19:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 20:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC) Except it isn’t two different entities, it’s one entity that fought a civil war for 20 years, and despite massive setbacks and losing the capital for a while, won the civil war. That’s what happened from a zoomed out perspective. The timeline is longer, but other examples of the same thing have happened and we treat those as the same entity. Make the right call.

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 20:06, 15 August 2021 (UTC) The gap is bridged by the Islamic Emirates existence from 2001-2021, as the Taliban. Treating those separate made sense when it looked like they were gone for good, but now……..

There is one Emirate of Afghanistan. They ruled the country from 1996-2001, fought a civil war from 2001-2021 where they lost control of the capital for a while to the republic, and then won the civil war in 2021. It’s all one thing.

I think we need a new article. There is an article on the Taliban, going over the group's entire history. Then there is the Islamic Emirater article and the Taliban insurgency, going over those two stages of the group's history. I think we should have a new article for the third. Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 20:28, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be treated as one entity. They were in a 20 year civil war so it wasn’t the end more like an underground government.Manabimasu (talk) 20:51, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

My proposal:

• Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as a single article for the Taliban government, including both the period up to 2001 and 2021-present
• Islamic Republic of Afghanistan as the 2004-2021 state
• Afghanistan article should be about the culture+nation+history of Afghanistan rather than any particular government. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 21:10, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

  Yes, this seems sensible. This article here is about the country Afghanistan, which hasn't become defunct, and existed both before the Taliban and since. There is no need to wholesale replace this. History, Geography, Demographics etc is unchanged. The politics and government section will change drastically, and more specific details on the two different states can be at the two pages mentioned above. Also there's no need to split the Islamic Emirate into two. It's the same thing, and never ceased to exist, it has been fighting an insurgency throughout the 20 years.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:29, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 22:14, 15 August 2021 (UTC) I agree with Chessrat, except I’d also like to say that the Islamic Emirate’s period during the civil war from 2001-2021 should be counted too. Governing was going on, especially during the later years. Perhaps mention that they considered surrender, got turned down, and slowly began rebuilding to eventually start taking back the cities. Again, one consistent and continuous entity from 1996-the present, it’s clear that’s the case now that we have the war at an end.

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 22:31, 15 August 2021 (UTC) One other thing. Both the Emirate and Republic articles should ease up the “won” or “ceased to exist” type language to fact the ultimate reality of the civil war more apparent.

The Emirate page should, instead of saying they effectively ceased to exist in December 2001, say they were effectively forced out of governance and left only ruling small rural clusters in the south, but managed to hold on and avoid being completely wiped out.” And then go in to talk abo it how they gradually reclaimed more and more rural territory as US support died down, especially in the mid to late 2010s as Operation Enduring Freedom ended, culminating in their reconquest of the cities, ending the civil war and regaining their control of the country.

The Republic page should mention that, while they were able to effectively rule the cities by the end of 2001, they were never able to fully defeat the Emirate, and gradually lost control of the rural areas as the civil war dragged on, culminating in the Emirate returning to the cities, ultimately defeating the Republic and ending the civil war.

Keeping the language consistent is important. The Republic never ‘’won’’, despite how it looked at the time. The Emirate never ceased to exist, they just retreated to the rural areas in the south just as the Muhajadeen did in the 80s.

Comment The old form of the China article is a useful outline for an article on a country whose government is disputed. May be handy here. Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 22:56, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

2604:3D09:1F80:CA00:31C8:9F3C:4939:FFA3 (talk) 01:31, 16 August 2021 (UTC) The debate has spilled over to the Emirate article. Just as I said, the case for splitting them is one of convenience, while the case for keeping them together is one of facts on the ground. It is a fact that the Islamic Emirate from 1996-2001 is the same entity as the Islamic Emirate(Taliban) that fought in the civil war for 20 years, and is the same entity as the Emirate being restored today. One entity that got into a civil war, suffered losses early on, and eventually won the civil war. Zoomed out, factually, that is what it is. This must not be forgotten.

As stated above, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan never ceased to exist, they were simply engaged in a civil war from 2004 to 2021. Considering the IEA continued to enforce their laws in regions they controlled and use the same flag, their rule has been continuous but their zone of control has simply waxed and waned. Since the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan no longer holds territory and have surrendered the civil war seems to be over, and that's exactly what it was. Putting the 2004 - 2021 period in a collapsible tab or a separate page makes more sense than splitting the two periods of clearest control off from the 20 years of contested control in which they still existed and enforced law. Splitting them also has the side effect of furthering confusion around the nature of the conflict. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:56, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Requesting discussion be closed - This discussion was settled in both Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and Taliban, we don't need a third discussion on the matter. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 01:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article should be tagged as current event

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This article should be tagged with: {{Current related||2021 Taliban offensive|date=August 2021}}

The current events make the entire contents of this article unstable. 2001:558:6017:107:CD55:7E67:70F:7BB8 (talk) 08:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Yeah Unibeq (talk) 08:40, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Change page title

Whoever the admin, please replace the capital with Kandahar and the name to the islamic republic of Afghanistan. Double tilde 😎 ~~ Unibeq (talk) 07:37, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done @Unibeq: The page title will not be moved from the short name of the country. Regarding the capital, can you provide a source that the capital is Kandahar? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 03:37, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Soryy is can't find any citation sources . Keep the page as u want to. Unibeq (talk) 03:55, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Infobox

What happened to the leaders section in the infobox? GoodDay (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• With two competing governments, there are no clear leaders to list. Benica11 (talk) 04:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
  • There aren't two competing governments. The Afghan government collapsed completely. There is no government-in-exile or anything, its just gone. The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is kaput. Though even if it existed in exile it doesn't change the fact that there is only one government actually in power which controls the entire country. At some point we will have to stop pretending.--RM (Be my friend) 06:33, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
    • There is no new government in place yet, it's as simple as that. Jeppiz (talk) 08:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
      • The Taliban is the de facto government, plain and simple.--RM (Be my friend) 09:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
        • And when they have appointed a new government, the infobox will reflect that. Jeppiz (talk) 09:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
          • It won't be a new government, The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a government in exile during the 20 year civil war, just as the Islamic State of Afghanistan did, and just as the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan may do. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I assume, either way Afghanistan is going to remain a republic. GoodDay (talk) 14:29, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

• That's certainly an assumption you could make, but I wouldn't. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan wasn't a republic at any point prior to now, but they did say they're considering using the old constitution as a template to build from. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Hatnote

@BSMRD: The hatnote for the Islamic Republic is about a former state (it says so in the hatnote). The Islamic Emirate hatnote is about a current state. So, having that is essentially choosing a "side" for this article. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The note also explicitly says de facto government, which is true. Listing both De Jure and De Facto governments is both useful for maintaining neutrality, and for assistance in navigation, which is the point of the hatnote in the first place. The hatnote could be reworded, I wouldn't object to that, but both pages need to be linked. BSMRD (talk) 07:51, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

BSMRD, we still need to adhere to our sourcing policies. There is not adequate sourcing for a state called "The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan", and there is not adequate sourcing for the Islamic Republic continuing as a de jure government in exile, as you're suggesting. If we're going to be inventing content for this purpose, we're better off getting rid of the hatnote altogether. That's why it's not in the infobox. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 07:54, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tartan357:Currently, I'm not overly concerned about sourcing (that is an issue that needs to be taken up at Islamic Republic of Afghanistan/Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan). As it stands right now, if an editor is looking for information on the administration(s) controlling Afghanistan in detail they won't find it in this article, so the hatnote is useful for directing them to the pages where that information is found. If you object to the IEA being called the de facto government that's fine (though I would disagree with your argument as the Taliban never stopped calling themselves the IEA, and are now back in control), but the article still should be linked so users can find the page relevant to what they are actually looking for, until things stabilize and we can properly sort this mess out. BSMRD (talk) 08:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

BSMRD, linking to them acknowledges that they exist under those names, and we don't even know that right now. RS are not using the term "Islamic Emirate" yet. We simply don't have information on the administration(s) controlling Afghanistan in detail at this time, and editors are going to have to get comfortable with that for a short time. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 08:04, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tartan357: That is an issue for those articles to sort out, but if a user comes to this article wanting info on either the government that was just deposed or the Taliban government that is forming, they won't find it here, they will find it at either Islamic Republic of Afghanistan or Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. These articles are where the information is, and it is our responsibility to direct readers to it, regardless of their potentially poor titling. If the language preceding these links is deemed objectionable, feel free to change it, but the articles themselves need to be linked for clarification of the current messy situation. BSMRD (talk) 08:11, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

BSMRD, fine. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 08:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tartan357: Glad we could sort this easily. BSMRD (talk) 08:15, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

It would be best to make this a disambiguation page, allowing users to easily find information about the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan or any of the previous states. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:18, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Gentle Sleep That wouldn’t follow the format that every other country page has. We need to be consistent. BakedGoods357 (talk) 02:25, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• China has a disambiguation with separate pages for the country and the region, but I would still prefer to just redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan if a consensus were to ever be reached on that. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2021

Please add the proposed merge request below:

{{merge to|Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan|discuss=Talk:Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan#Proposal to merge|date=August 2021}}

I have already created the merge request within the proposed destination page. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 04:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ― Tartan357 ^Talk 06:09, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

making the article up-to-date

The Islamic Emirate, should be recognized as the government of afghanistan. it has control over afghanistan now. FizzoXD (talk) 02:44, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan does currently control at the very least the majority of Afghanistan including the capital, and US forces at the airport are only there at the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's pleasure. There are plenty of citations for this all over this page, as well as the page for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. However, due to how much of a headache this entire thing has been in regards to page updates, I propose that the Afghanistan page not cover government information in detail, and instead should link to the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's page and the pages of any other disputed governments if they should materialize in the future. We really don't need to deal this this mess again, and governments in the region aren't known for their long duration. The Afghanistan page could be kept much shorter and we could avoid future issues of a similar nature by using this page for cultural information only. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. The IRA literally doesn’t exist anymore. The one province that the Taliban doesn’t control has always been controlled by an independent militia, not the IRA. People are suggesting keeping regime details in different pages but that’s not consistent with any page on the site and causes confusion to the reader. BakedGoods357 (talk) 03:05, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree in theory, but at this point the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page has been set up and fleshed out for current state of Afghanistan. It would be most appropriate to either have Afghanistan redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan or use this one for culture alone, rather than trying to fix this page. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:13, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Gentle Sleep I think this page should redirect to the IEA page, but some of the info from this one should be merged with it. BakedGoods357 (talk) 03:17, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, if we change it to a redirect then we would need to merge over cultural information which has yet to be brought over. I'll propose this over there if you would like to give your input BakedGoods357 --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 03:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Disagree. Although de facto the IEA is the current 'ruling party' of Afghanistan, it is not a recognized sovereign state, at least not yet, by most UN-member states. A sovereign state status is the 'gold standard' for any state to be able to sustain itself politically and economically. A sovereign state is a state with its own institutions and populations that has:

• a fully recognition status by UN-member states,
• a permanent population,
• territory,
• government.

It must also have the right and capacity to make treaties and other agreements with other states. (You don't have to hold a degree in international law to know this, this is basic knowledge).

So far the IEA lacked some, if not all, of the aforementioned prerequisite to becoming a sovereign state. I say we should wait until the recognition by UN and its member states, we are not the one to "recognize" IEA (we're not UN-member states!). We should not precede what will happen next and rush to write everything about it. What we'll be writing and implying should be encyclopedic and avoid WP:CRYSTAL—SquidHomme ^(talk) 07:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

We have a problem

Now that Amrullah Saleh has (correctly, in my view, at least legally speaking) proclaimed himself acting President of Afghanistan, we have a problem: legally the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan continues to exist, though de facto it only controls one province. So, which is the legal government of Afghanistan? The Republic or the Emirate?.-Karma1998 (talk) 23:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

Won't matter who or what is placed in to the infobox. It'll only end up reverted or changed within an hour. The dust has yet to settle. GoodDay (talk) 23:07, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The emirate is in charge of course. This was never even a debate even when the Taliban controlled significant parts of the country, how come IRA is now supposed to be represented for controlling a mere one province? BakedGoods357 (talk) 23:16, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with User:GoodDay. More reliable sources are needed. I found a source here and here. Really it’s up to editors to decide whether it’s sources on international recognition or recognition from the sources themselves. For example, If Country A and Country B recognize Country C and reliable sources report on that recognition as de jure. Would that be enough for such government(IEA or IRA) to be the state of affairs? Or separately reliable sources reporting that Country C is the de facto state of affairs? Which one is given more weight to decide? Is it more reliable sources? Right now, we are giving both equal weight and as a result a dispute. So not a problem but a pause in the fork.Manabimasu (talk) 01:40, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Can't this just be an article on the country of Afghanistan and then we have two different articles on the two co-existent states claiming its territory? Chetsford (talk) 01:46, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chetsford There’s no two “co-existing states”. The Taliban has total control and the IRA doesn’t exist anymore BakedGoods357 (talk) 02:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

"The Taliban has total control and the IRA doesn’t exist anymore" No, that's false. The IRA only exercises sovereignty over Panjshir Province but to say "it doesn't exist" is demonstrably false. That's like saying orangutans don't exist because they're endangered. Chetsford (talk) 04:41, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

In my view this page should either be a page on the culture of the Afghan region and it's historical significance without getting into politics, or it should be a disambiguation page with links to current and former regimes. The pages for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan are coming along well. Due to the average duration of regimes in the region, we could avoid future head aches by keeping details of the government on separate pages or keeping the information about each regime brief and going into more detail on separate pages like how China is set up. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Agree with The Gentle Sleep. Chetsford (talk) 04:42, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I say go with the precedent from Libya, after the fall of Tripoli for about a month Libya's article had two info boxes below the main info box for both Gaddafi's government and the rebel government with the Rebel's info box above Gadaffi's due to their dominance of the country.

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Libya&oldid=449197653 Thegunkid (talk) 05:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan’s flag shouldn’t be displayed at the info box until we hear news from further development of the Panjshir conflict/resistance. According to some media outlets, what is left of the Islamic Republic in Panjshir are currently forming a well stablished resistance movement. Gonzaloges (talk) 14:28, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2021 (2)

"By 1996 most of Afghanistan was captured by the Islamic fundamentalist group the Taliban,"

After "fundamentalist group", there should be a comma present NekomancerJaidyn (talk) [she/her] 15:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:10, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2021 (3)

2405:201:11:B196:C522:C8CC:FDC:A296 (talk) 16:15, 18 August 2021 (UTC)change the official name of Afghanistan from "Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" to "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan" as major countries such as China and Russia have opened talks to recognize this government. Moreover, since the Taliban unfortunately control 95% of Afghanistan, it is in the interests of millions of people to know the truth. Thank you

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:20, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2021 (5)

Dear Wikipedia Team

I would like to request a change of the Flag you are currently showcasing as the Flag of Afghanistan. Due to recent events it is clear that the Afghan people, like me, do not acknowledge this flag as theirs. It is solely a call by a terrorist group which should not have the saying of changing the name or flag of this country. I ask you kindly, in honor of the 40 years of war the people of Afghanistan have seen, to change the flag back to which we stand for and see our identity in. I thank you very much in advance for acknowledging this edit-request, to change the flag back to the real afghan Flag.

kind regards Iman A. 80.118.235.2 (talk) 21:47, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The flag doesn't seem to be shown on this page at the moment, probably because it's unconfirmed, but if it ends up as the Taliban flag then, unfortunately, I don't really think it can be Wikipedia's place to empower a government that has been overthrown. That would be misleading to the readers. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 21:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

I don’t see the Taliban flag on this page, but if it eventually makes its way here it can’t just be changed due to political beliefs. The flag is for showing the current regime in charge of the country. Plus, I dont think you speak for the majority of afghans in your comment as there was almost no resistance to the Taliban’s takeover. BakedGoods357 (talk) 01:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 August 2021 (4)

Amrullah Saleh is now President as Ashraf Ghani has abdicated the seat. Ahmad Massoud is now considered the replacement Vice President.

The Flag remains 🇦🇫. It is still the Islamic Democratic Republic of Afghanistan.

The Taliban are an insurrection army much like the Confederate South Army. 2605:8D80:62D:DA4:839:D903:5B5E:5959 (talk) 19:57, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:07, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The Taliban is not an insurrection anymore. The former government no longer holds any power, someone claiming it’s presidency doesn’t mean anything. BakedGoods357 (talk) 01:08, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Removal of this terroristic group flag

Ericaska (talk) 18:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

My feelings are hurt. My people are suffering from this Terrorist group and Wikipedia already put their flag next to Country's flag.

I can't believe this is the reality. I don't understand the rush. they killed thousands of people, raped women, girls, kids, boys, my uncle got killed by them, all my relatives flee from the country 20 years ago.

Is Wikipedia really that excited about this to happen or there are some of the same Terrorist group's members editing.

I CAN NOT BELIEVE IT, PEOPLE ARE TREATING IT LIKE A NORMAL GROUP.

I request immediate removal of this terrorist group flag from the page and please wait for the final results as nobody knows what will happen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Ericaska (talk • contribs) 18:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ericaska: However heartbreaking it may be, that terrorist group has won the war and is now in charge of Afghanistan.-Karma1998 (talk) 18:22, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done Please establish consensus for this change first. BSMRD (talk) 18:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ericaska: I have symphathy with you, but we have to face the facts. Even if we don't like it, the Taliban are now in control of Afghanistan, and our encyclopedia has to reflect that. By all mean, feel free to significantly expand our documentation of Taliban war crimes/human rights violations. But we still have to describe reality on the ground, no matter how unpleasant said reality might be.--1234567891011a (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'm afraid most answers above are wrong. We should not use any flag before a new flag has been recognised and reported in reliable sources. Have a look at Britannica's entry for Afghanistan and what flag it uses. Like Encyclopaedia Britannia, we are also an Encyclopaedia, and not a news outlet. Read WP:NOTNEWS. We may very well change the flag, but now is not the moment. Jeppiz (talk) 20:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
  • @Jeppiz: I did look at Britannica's article, but to be quite honest, it's considerably worse than ours. It's out of date (although I can't fault them for that being a historically paper encyclopedia), but more importantly, its writtten in a way that would fail NPOV in a heartbeat here, being littered with references to "communist regimes", "struggles for freedom", and other loaded terms, along with generally anti-DRA potshots. 69.172.145.94 (talk) 09:11, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Not sure what you think the better option is, use a flag of a government that no longer exists and has no control over the country? Regardless of personal feelings towards the situation, we need to acknowledge whose in charge of the country here and that means including their flag. BakedGoods357 (talk) 20:41, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• sigh... This has nothing to do with personal feelings, just trying to explain some basic WP policies. You make assumptions about what the flag might be. That is a flagrant violation of WP:OR. Jeppiz (talk) 21:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I was relying to OP. Not sure how to do that specifically without pinging other people. BakedGoods357 (talk) 21:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

That being said, after now reading your comment, saying that the flag is “speculation” is simply wrong. It’s flown all over the country, including the presidential palace. The Taliban have always viewed themself as a levitarme government in exile and have used this flag for over 20 years. Saying that they have to “declare” this as their countries flag when they have already done so doesn’t make sense. BakedGoods357 (talk) 21:39, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has used the same flag for the entire civil war, their flag is currently flying over the capital, and the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan (2004–2021) has been disolved. Obviously the IEA's flag should be used, they are a continuous state entity which has regained dominant power. They aren't establishing a new flag because they're not a new state. --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 22:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Gentle Sleep: and @BakedGoods357:, I can only repeat what I said. You really need to read and understand WP:OR. You both try to present arguments for why this will be the new flag. What you need to do is to present sources that this flag has been adopted as the official flag of Afghanistan. Jeppiz (talk) 22:16, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@The Gentle Sleep: and @BakedGoods357:, agreed with @Jeppiz: Onus is on those making the change to the flag to present sources indicating that this flag has been adopted as the official flag. They have failed to present and respond to contradicting evidence. Article 60 of Afghanistan's constitution states that(), "in absence, escape, resignation or death of the President the First Vice President becomes the caretaker President". Amrullah Saleh has reported he is currently inside Afghanistan and has publicly announced he is the legitimate caretaker President. He is reaching out to leaders to secure support and consensus, and is likely in Panjshir, which has not been captured by the Taliban.

Does this work as a citation for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's flag being the current flag of Afghanistan? --The Gentle Sleep (talk) 22:27, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Zabihullah Mujahid (Taliban Spokesman) stated that the Afghan population will decide the Afghan flag issue. The white one used by members of the Taliban.--39.41.4.158 (talk) 19:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

I have provided citations to support that the white flag of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is the flag flying over government facilities, and as such is the official flag of Afghanistan. The Gentle Sleep (talk) 02:14, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Minor edit request 2021-08-19

I would suggest changing

[[War in Afghanistan (2001-present)|twenty-year-long war]]

to

[[War in Afghanistan (2001-2021)|twenty-year-long war]]

in the third introductory paragraph to reflect the change in the linked article's title. Vitomontreal (talk) 16:38, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Disambiguation header wrong?

The header reads "This article is about the country of Afghanistan. For the 2004–2021 internationally recognized government, see Islamic Republic of Afghanistan.". This should be reworded or the years removed, as this gives the impression that the international recognition of the Islamic Republic ended in 2021, even though it is still the de jure government according to every UN member state. It should either read "For the internationally recognized government" or something like "For the internationally recognized government which was in control between 2004-2021" if you want to make it clear that they're no longer the de facto government Mordrim (talk) 10:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

I agree with this. Thegunkid (talk) 00:56, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Done. --WMSR (talk) 01:07, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 August 2021

1. Add Taliban Government's flag 2. Add Taliban Government's Anthem 3. Add Taliban Government's National Song 4. Add Taliban Government's Motto 5. Add Taliban Government's Army emblem

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 06:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

So-called “Redeclaration of the Islamic Emirate”

The article currently states that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was “redeclared” on 19 August, but I don’t see any source for this claim.

My guess is that the source is this article (https://thehill.com/policy/international/568585-taliban-declare-islamic-emirate-of-afghanistan) or one of several like it, which I believe have misinterpreted a 19 August declaration by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan as if it were a declaration of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. In fact, “declarations of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan” have been published on IEA media on many occasions and are nothing new. The text of the 19 August declaration makes clear that it is not meant to declare the Islamic Emirate, but is just a typical declaration made by the Islamic Emirate.

I recommend deletion of this reference. As I understand it, no new régime is likely to be formally declared until the end of August. Ciringacenjunga (talk) 19:27, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

You aren't the first to bring this up. Serafart made a similar post here[5]. BSMRD (talk) 19:30, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 August 2021 (2)

In the section "Modern History / Barakzai Dynasty and British Wars," third paragraph, last sentence, last line: "Amanullah Khan evoked the Third Anglo-Afghan War."

Please change "evoked," which means "drew forth" or "elicited," to "provoked," meaning "stirred up" or "instigated." Presumably Amanullah came through the Khyber Pass looking for trouble. "Evoke" is too mild a term for the act of starting a war.

The sentence should read "Amanullah Khan provoked the Third Anglo-Afghan War." Stony Lonesome (talk) 18:45, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Saying someone "evoked" a war is weird language anyways. BSMRD (talk) 20:09, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Why no flag

A country usually has a flag unless somehow Afghanistan has no flag— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.254.15.4 (talk) 11:10, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

It's because the flag might be changing, see for example Special:Permalink/1039084748 from 17 August. ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 12:48, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Because there is effectively a political dispute, it'd be wisest and neutral to put no flag at all. (Instead there are flags on Islamic Republic of Afghanistan and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan). Also since the Islamic Emirate is unrecognized and most likely the Islamic Republic will remain officially recognized, the Islamic Emirate flag shouldn't be on this article either. Unless, the Islamic Emirate becomes widely internationally recognized. --Weaveravel (talk) 23:42, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

The previous lead has been restored now, keep watch on this article!

Since the Fall of Kabul and a spike in interest, this page has seen many edits too. Sadly I noticed several good pieces having been removed in the past weeks without a valid reason, and being buried from so many edits/editors and thus forgotten. I certainly haven't and have restored a few. But perhaps most importantly is the lead paragraphs. For a long time, the 2nd and 3rd lead paragraphs describing the history of Afghanistan was a good quality one, describing it well and being very consistent with other countries's articles on Wikipedia. I in fact contributed with others to making that structure. I've noticed now it has gone and replaced by an emphasis of "invaded by x, y and the US in 2001", it's been called "unconquerable" and the "graveyard of empires". All this flashy language making it not suitable for how a wiki should be, and replacing the key long-term history info that the lead used to have up until a week or two ago.

Because I see this as actions by opportunistic editors who have degraded the wiki quality, I have therefore restored the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs entirely back to how they were as of the beginning of this month of August, before the spike in interest following the fall of Kabul (of course, with the addition of the latter event).

I just want to let responsible wiki editors here know that this huge traffic on Afghanistan-related articles these days are bound to mess up some things. Whether it's inexperienced, opportunistic editors or simply people who write on Wikipedia as a news article, we should keep watch and make sure nothing gets messed again. (I have discovered in the last minute another new mess, on the Panjshir Valley article, History section last paragraph. This is the kind of stuff we'll have to deal with in the foreseeable future.) --Weaveravel (talk) 23:35, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

Note: there is a list of all Afghanistan articles at WP:WikiProject Afghanistan/Watchlist that editors can use with the related changes feature to monitor all Afghanistan articles —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 01:37, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Yup best keep an eye out for those not reading the talk page as to why things were done in the first place a month later. ..Wikipedia:Ownership of content#Statements.Moxy- 02:28, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm sorry but now we are back to the same situation with the flashy language. I understand trimming is good, but the way the history is written now puts almost full emphasis on very recent history and the invasions. It is not how a standard country article on wiki should be, this needs changing definitely, I'm all for trimming but it has to be done in a better way than this honestly. (I will happily contribute!) --Weaveravel (talk) 12:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

What would be your suggestion for a single history paragraph? Given the current article state, there may need to be some concession to recentism just to stave off lead-fixated edits. CMD (talk) 12:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

I understand 5 paragraphs is more than the 4 max we should ideally have. I'd say merging the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs as of last month (pre-18th century history) and then trimming from there, because we don't need all that in a massive paragraph. It would balance out nicely: 2nd paragraph showing ancient to medieval history, 3rd showing the recent history. Also we definitely don't need the "unconquerable"/"graveyard of empires" in the lead sections. --Weaveravel (talk) 12:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

That still leaves 1/2 of the lead dedicated to 1/8 of the article sections. CMD (talk) 13:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean by that? --Weaveravel (talk) 13:47, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Leads are meant to be a summary of an article's body, with similar topical emphasis to the article body. The article currently has 8 body sections, of which only one is history. Two paragraphs of the lead is half of generally lead length. That is a severe imbalance between the body and the lead. CMD (talk) 14:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

But take a look at other country articles of wiki. The existing format always seems to be Introduction > History, people (1 or 2 paragraphs) > Current state/politics, international memberships. --Weaveravel (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Most country articles are of poor quality (hence WP:OSE). See FAC Rwanda for a diverse lead that actually covers the article. CMD (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Well what will the solution be then? The way I see it the lead of this article is not of good quality to my eyes.--Weaveravel (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

The solution would be to develop the lead to better reflect the article, per the WP:LEAD guideline. At the roughest level, a topic important enough that it has been given a header (and thus a table of contents entry) would presumably be worth at least passing mention in something summarising that article/table of contents. As it stands, this article has nine sections and subsections on Culture, yet Culture gets zero mention in the lead. 15:36, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Understood, hope someone can spark a good beginning. --Weaveravel (talk) 16:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2021

President Biden’s remarks following deadly terror attacks at Kabul’s airport suggested that U.S. activities in Afghanistan could continue beyond the Aug. 31 deadline for a permanent withdrawal of U.S. troops, raising further questions about the current parameters of the mission.

Biden vowed to retaliate against ISIS-K militants responsible for the suicide bombings that killed at least 13 U.S. military service members on Thursday, though he did not provide a timeline for when those strikes could occur. He also noted that there would be "numerous opportunities" to evacuate at-risk individuals after Aug. 31, even as he pledged to maintain his current timeline for the withdrawal.

"These ISIS terrorists will not win. We will rescue the Americans there. We will get our Afghan allies out and our mission will go on," Biden said during his speech. "America will not be intimidated. And I have the utmost confidence in our brave service members who continue to execute this mission with courage and honor to save lives and get Americans, our partners, our Afghan allies out of Afghanistan."— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.103.86.18 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. BSMRD (talk) 02:50, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

technical request

can someone validate the brackets in this page's code? there seems to be an extra "}}" somewhere. when I hover a link to this page that nav pop up is messed up because of those extra brackets. I tried to find them but this is a more daunting task than I realized & I can't quickly find a good editing tool that can "validate" brackets or whatever. thanks. skakEL 18:58, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Failed State

It looks strange to me, that the article never mentions that Afganistan is a failed state, which I would added to the very first paragraph to read "Afganistan is a landlocked country, and currently a failed state, at the crossroads of Central and South Asia." Birdofpreyru (talk) 19:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

Do reliable sources often refer to Afghanistan as a failed state when introducing the country? CMD (talk) 01:31, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

This article is talking about Afghanistan as a nation, no about its government. The IRA can be described as a failed state I think because it lost almost all land to the IEA. Bilikon (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

I guess, I agree to @CMD's point that RS that WP:RS indeed do not often introduce Afghanistan as a failed state. On the other hand, WP:RS usually are not encyclopedia, and they do not aim to really "introduce" Afghanistan, rather they assume the name speaks for itself.

Though, this article in its fourth paragraph arrives to state "the country has high levels of terrorism, poverty, child malnutrition, and corruption". I'd say that is just a definition of a failed state, and whenever a WP:RS discusses the concept of a failed state, Afghanistan sure comes up as a good example. Also, in a broader sense it is failed since soviet intervention in 1979: never since they manage to establish a lasting rule, controlling entire country, and providing all basic services and security. Birdofpreyru (talk) 08:42, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Name in Dari and Pashto

The lead and the infobox contradict themselves. Is "Afghanistan" in these two languages the same or not? Super Ψ Dro 16:40, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

It is the same in both languages (exact same spelling in the Perso-Arabic script), there is only a (very) slight difference in pronunciation so it's the romanization that is different. --Weaveravel (talk) 14:09, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok so the lead says it is Afġānestān in both languages, the infobox says it is Afġānestān in Dari and Afġānistān in Pashto and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan says it is Afġānistān in both languages. I think we have an issue here. Super Ψ Dro 09:15, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 August 2021

The country is currently under Taliban occupation thus I believe a section under the main landing page is warranted. Must show taliban flag. 2600:8800:3100:7D40:B9D9:6866:4B70:5382 (talk) 09:22, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 09:35, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you saying we should put the Taliban flag on? Hurricanestudier123 (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

RfC on whether to make the "Afghanistan" article about the Islamic Emirate

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the "Afghanistan" article be about the Islamic Emirate (Taliban) government? Chessrat ^{(talk, contributions)} 02:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Sources. The article should reflect the current country and its current government, so Cish, but this needs to be based on WP:Reliable sources. We need a source saying the Taliban has declared their flag the flag of the state, a source on the new government structure, etc. This page is currently jumping ahead of real life events. CMD (talk) 02:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

This article should remain the parent article for the country with it being updated as needed as has been done in the past when other governments have been formed. Or are you proposing a name change? Why would the article titled Afghanistan not be the parent article? Let's get some experience country article editors here.Moxy- 02:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'm with Moxy and Chipmunkdavis. I've noticed that the articles on Afghanistan are jumping the gun a bit. Let's slow it down, hold our horses, and wait for the sources to say things before we cause (as if we had the power to do so!) geopolitical realities to emerge. What I'm saying is exactly that of CMD: wait for the sources. They lead; we follow. Don't get ahead of them: after all, we're WP:NOTNEWS. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 03:32, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Wait until an official surrender. -47.33.186.77 (talk) 04:19, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

47.33.186.77 I would surprised if their ever is an official surrender. Llewee (talk) 04:49, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The islamic emirate/taliban is, whether we like it or not, now effectively in control over the country. Even if no foreign gouvernment is going to be willing to aknowledge their government, de facto they run things now, and our article should reflect the realities on the ground, which is, that the islamic republic is defunct. --1234567891011a (talk) 07:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

• Not yet. This RfC question assumes that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan will be the name of the new government when the Taliban, Afghan leaders, and the international community are in talks about what the new government will look like, its name, and structure (per TOLO news). Wait for a new government to be declared. I also agree with much of what CMD had to say above. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 21:08, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have continued to operate as a constant organization during the 20 year civil war , are flying the same flag over the capital , are using the same name , and continued to enforce their laws within their territory during the entire war. Due to the cited facts I've laid out:

• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan has continued to operate as a government in exile and as such were long since established as a government.
• The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan currently controls the capital and is the dominant state in the region.
• Because the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was previously a partially recognized state, it stands to reason that they are currently a partially recognized state unless there are reliable sources showing that nations including Saudi Arabia who are already on record as supporting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan have ceased to recognize them.
• Afghanistan should redirect to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, or this should be set up as a regional page with the primary page being Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (similar to how China and Mainland China are set up.) The Gentle Sleep (talk) 05:58, 18 August 2021 (UTC)
• Not yet. And not soon. Obviously the new, current regime should be briefly covered as being now in control of the country, but making any drastic change can wait for some time. We normally highlight the current regime, because typically, in a stable country, the current regime/system of govt. goes back many years, or sometimes centuries. There is a case to be made for the focus of this article to be the instability of the last 30 years - leading obviously to the new regime. That is the broader truth of the country. Pincrete (talk) 17:14, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose/Not yet. Only in the event that the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan becomes widely internationally recognized should this happen. Otherwise, the Afghanistan article should remain the way it is now, with political info split between the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and Islamic Republic of Afghanistan articles. Neither should there be a flag at all in Afghanistan because of this. --Weaveravel (talk) 23:46, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose/Not yet. Though it appears that Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan will likely become the government of Afghanistan, the situation is still fluid and it would be best to wait till there is finality. There could also be fractions that emerge that could result in split forms of government or leadership. For these reasons I would recommend to wait before making the change. Jurisdicta (talk) 04:00, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
• Not yet per Javert2113. Danre98 is also correct when they say that we are making assumptions about what the new government will look like based on a government 20 years ago, which goes against WP:CRYSTAL. Ultimately I think CMD hit the nail on the head when they said, We need a source saying the Taliban has declared their flag the flag of the state, a source on the new government structure. — Czello 06:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)
• Not yet It's too early to conclude the kind of regime of the new government. Sea Ane (talk) 21:55, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
• Not yet - technically the government is till forming, and still negotiating with the resistance in the Panshir region. I think it best to wait. There should be a section on the current Taliban de facto control. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:55, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
• Probably but wait - There are some reports coming in that Panjshir has just fallen. If so, then I say yes, otherwise, wait for the situation to play out. If Panjshir does fall in the future (it likely will), then yes, there is no reason not to merge the article on the regime that controls all of Afghanistan with this article. If not, maybe wait a bit for some international recognition. However, long-term we will eventually have to merge these even if no recognition is forthcoming and the Taliban remain in power. If the Taliban are still ruling 10 years from now and we are still pretending that there is any serious question as to who rules Afghanistan we will look ridiculous.--RM (Be my friend) 16:02, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment It now appears that the Taliban have announced a caretaker government. I would suggest this RfC be closed, with new discussions held on the basis on this now emerging information. CMD (talk) 15:29, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 August 2021

Government of Afghanistan is Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. There is no dispute between Islamic Republic of Afghanistan and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan regarding the authority over Afghanistan. Assange123 (talk) 16:36, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:43, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Change the name of government to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Assange123 (talk) 10:34, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 September 2021

ISIS needs to be added Worldwar1989 (talk) 07:51, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:10, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2021

I am writing to request of the removal of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan in wikipedia because it is not the internationally recognised government. I want both governments to be written as the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan is the officially recognised government. 92.40.173.96 (talk) 15:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. BSMRD (talk) 15:41, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2021 (2)

When you search on google it still shows the old flag 2.49.241.102 (talk) 16:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This isn't something we can change: it's a Google caching thing. It'll likely update in the coming weeks. — Czello (Please tag me in replies) 16:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Percent of the people in Afghanistan

Hello to the Wikipedia team, It is about the percentage of 100 tribes that there is no reliable source or accurate census in Afghanistan. Therefore, please remove this ridiculous percentage from your page if your site is really neutral.

Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:CB16:55:1EDA:C520:FF4F:4FD4:A395 (talk • contribs)

Can you be clearer about which statement exactly you feel needs removing? From what I can see, the data concerning different demographics or tribes appears to be sourced. — Czello 14:47, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

technical request (second attempt)

can someone validate the brackets in this page's code? there seems to be an extra "}}" somewhere. when I hover a link to this page that nav pop up is messed up because of those extra brackets. I tried to find them but this is a more daunting task than I realized & I can't quickly find a good editing tool that can "validate" brackets or whatever. thanks. skakEL

(PS I posted this before but someone accidentally deleted it here when trying to archive) skakEL 17:44, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Status of government

Dear Wikipedia editors, the Islamic Emirate is a self-proclaimed de facto unrecognized entity with low support from the people of Afghanistan. Many of their authorities are war criminals. Please do not consider it as a government, as it lacks many of the basic fundamentals of a governing administrative body. Even though the Islamic republic of Afghanistan has been overthrown, it is still the de jure government with high support from the people. Thanks Kamran Tetra (talk) 16:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Cool. Do you have sources backing this, or is it your opinion? BSMRD (talk) 17:15, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I've made your comment part of the RFC as it relates to the discussion. --Llewee (talk) 17:09, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

I have undone this, as it is not about an article merge. CMD (talk) 17:19, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2021 (3)

Add “officially the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan” after the first word. BakedGoods357 (talk) 21:17, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Disabling this for the moment, probably a good idea in time, but we should ideally have more sources on the matter. So far I've only seen it in a throwaway on BBC. CMD (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

New RFC in the light of the new government announcement

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The Taliban have now formally announced the new government they will establish and declared it an Islamic Emirate. In light of this development should the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan be integrated into this page.--Llewee (talk) 15:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Yes At this point the only thing possibly standing in the way of changing the article over is diplomatic recognition, but every other element of the de facto situation says the Taliban are the sole ruling authority. BSMRD (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes to merging the Islamic Emirate article into this page, but pre-emptively saying no to any changes to the title. It does appear that the defacto government is the Emirate. — Czello 16:10, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes My personal view is that information related to the present day Taliban government should be integrated into this article whilst the other page should be changed to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001) the infobox and all other non-history related political information should be changed to predominantly reflect the new government. Llewee (talk) 16:28, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• No, the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article as created focused on a previous specific period of rule. It should not be merged into this page, being a useful and valid page topic within the framework of Afghanistan articles per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. There is no reason to delete a sub-article on a previous era, nor would it be reasonable per WP:SIZE to merge another large article into this already 78kb of prose article. CMD (talk) 17:04, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
  • Information focused on the 1990s regime could be split into it's own article.--Llewee (talk) 17:11, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
    • This has already been done. As I mentioned, that topic is the stable intention of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article. CMD (talk) 17:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
      • You justify your argument by pointing out that the article "as created focused on a previous specific period of rule" surely the article should focus on that period of rule and information on the modern regime should be moved to the article on the actual state like any other nation in the world? What we have as things currently stand is a page which is weirdly scripted out of any of the political information which would usually be included in a wikipedia article on a sovereign state which is fair enough as a interim arrangement but not a adequate long term solution. Llewee (talk) 17:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
        • • There are lots of articles that should include information about the modern regime, including this one. Your RfC proposal is not to include information about the modern regime here however, it is to merge the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan article into this one, which is not a good idea for the reasons I mentioned. CMD (talk) 00:39, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes The Taliban are now the ruling government, and as such are the de facto rulers of Afghanistan despite lacking diplomatic recognition at the moment. GhostOfNoMeme (talk) 19:25, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• No,...just update this pages infobox and government section as we have before. No way whole article merge is possible as per WP:SUMMARYSTYLE . I am assuming wording for the rfc is all messed up...try again perhaps. Moxy- 20:50, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Strong Yes There is overwhelming evidence that the Taliban/IEA are in complete control of Afghanistan. If we relied on Diplomatic Recognition for countries, Taiwan would not mention the Republic of China at all. Per the reasons cited by GhostOfNoMeme, we shouldn't shy away from making WP:BOLD changes when there is overwhelming reliable sources that the Taliban/IEA are the de-facto rulers of Afghanistan. IntUnderflow (talk) 21:01, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes, with the caveat that the IEA (1996-2001) partially recognized state AND the IEA (2001-2021) insurgency be split off into a separate article and retain most of the content of the current IEA page, with relevant (government) sections being split off onto this page. WittyWidi (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Strong No, Taliban is designated as a terrorist organization by many nations and has a very low popularity amongst the people of Afghanistan. In order for an entity to be considered as a governing body, atleast one UN recognized country has to accept them as legitimate, or else, it is considered as a rebellious, even if it occupies 100% of Afghanistan, by international law. Thanks Kamran Tetra (talk) 21:46, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• No (Summoned by bot) IEA should stand alone as a detailed article--as it is--on the government, culture, politics, military, foreign relations, etc. primarily during 1996-2001 period. Far too big to "merge". Appropriate editing changes can be made in selected locations of the main Afghanistan article to bring it up to date without a merge attempt with IEA that would require an effort amounting to nuclear fusion. I support renaming IEA with the parenthetical "(1996-2001)", as currently suggested by the tag in its front matter. DonFB (talk) 22:13, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

No, the people of Afghanistan have the right to select their government, the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan has been selected multiple times in elections and referendums, but the Islamic Emirate has not held and is not willing to ask the people whether they consider them legitimate by referendum, election, etc. We live in modern times where controling land is not the only factor of a group to be considered a government, unlike the medieval era. Kamran Tetra (talk) 22:00, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• • I hate the Taliban too but by WP:NEUTRAL (we should not care how the Taliban is or how they came to power or what Afghans think of them) and several examples like Taiwan, Kosovo, Somaliland that serve as precedents in this case that Wikipedia does not just show states other states recognize. Especially in Somaliland's case, Somalia's article shows area it claims but does not control - same as Serbia, Pakistan, etc. with other claimed uncontrolled territory. As such the IEA, the de facto government of Afghanistan, should be listed in the infobox and relevant sections of the page WittyWidi (talk) 22:58, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
    • To further clarify, Wikipedia lists leaders most WEIRD (Western, Educated, yadda yadda) people would consider illegitimate, like the Kims, Gaddafi until his deposition, and various other coup/military dictators, and crucially, does *not* continue to list the deposed "legitimate" leaders

• Yes, In support of argument presented by WittyWidi above Jibran1998 (talk) 23:04, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Yes It would be hypocritical to not recognize this form of government, even if it is established by conquest. Most nations that exist in the world exist due to some ancestral (and sometimes current) conquest, violence, or other application of militant force. We recognize governments that are monarchies, despite monarchs being not voted for typically. We recognize lots of non-democractic forms of government and do not deny their authority. Recognition of governments by conquest in the west but not MENA is hypocritical at best. ~Gwennie🐈｟💬 📋｠ 23:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
• Comment There seems to be some uncertainty on whether or not a full page merge is proposed. When answering the RfC I answered as if a partial merge of content regarding the 2021 iteration of the Emirate was requested, but others seem to think it is asking for a full page merge. Llewee if you could clarify the RfC slightly (and maybe also ping the users who have voted based on this unclear version) that may be a good idea. BSMRD (talk) 23:49, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

• Yes per what others have said. It is time to update the page now. -- PaleoMatt (talk) 01:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes but no merge. The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should exist as its own more detailed article (per DonFB). I also generally agree with CMD on the subject of a merge. This article should encompass all of Afghanistan's history and merging (not using WP:SUMMARYSTYLE) would result in too much emphasis on the Islamic Emirat. That said, it's completely reasonable to update the article (mostly the government section and infobox) to reflect the new (note: currently caretaker) government/cabinet and Taliban control, possibly with text from the Islamic Emirate article. The Taliban have de facto control and the article should reflect that. —Danre98^{(talk^contribs)} 01:36, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Place this on hold for now Chipmunkdavis makes an important observation here. The last stable version of Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan dealt only with the period 1996–2001, but this suddenly changed when people suddenly started adding (without any consensus) a bunch of stuff from the current year after the Taliban took Kabul on the 15th of August. We should just rollback IEA to its pre-August 2021 version, move the article to the proposed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001), and redirect Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan here. In both currently active discussions, there are more 'supports' than 'opposes', so they only need to be closed now. Avilich (talk) 04:58, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
• Yes. The Islamic Emirate now has complete control over all of Afghanistan. I withheld comment until the Panjshir Valley was retaken but now there is no ground controlled by forces recognizing the defunct Islamic Republic, and any opposition is at the insurgency level. We should take the precedents of Taiwan and Somaliland. If the current regime is ever replaced we can create a new article about "Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (2021-whenever)". In the meantime, this is the government of Afghanistan now, like it or not. At some point we're going to have to drop the charade that control is seriously disputed for the time being.--RM (Be my friend) 18:53, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

No, There is neither need nor sense in merging two large articles about dispirate topics. This article is about the long history of a country, the 'emirate' article is largely about a previous regime/era (immediately prior to the US led invasion). The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan should be renamed and repurposed to revert to its original function - covering the 1996-US invasion ie the 'original emirate'. A rename/revert scope discussion is underway there to this purpose. The current title (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan) should temporarily redirect to this article, which should cover new developments (post August 2021) until such time as a wholly new 'Emirate (2021 onwards)' article is needed. Actually merging the two articles would create an article that is much WP:TOOBIG and which would be 'swamped' by the vast amount of material from the 1996-2001 period. Largely agree with CMD, DonFB, Moxy and Avilich. The objective (acknowledging the change of regime) is highly desirable, the proposed way of achieving that (merging) is neither practical nor desirable IMO. In a few weeks time we would be back trying to work out how to 're-split' into the 3 distinct eras of IEofA. Pincrete (talk) 06:53, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Comment : if the articles ar not merged, do you think it would be useful to rename the current Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan page as Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996-2001) (or something similar) and redirect Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to Afghanistan ? Psychloppos (talk) 10:52, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Overview

There appears to be two separate arguments taking place in this discussion. The first is about whether this page should reflect the current regime and include information on that political structure . The second is focused on what should happen to the article for the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. On the first argument there seems to be clear consensus that the time has come to reflect the current de facto political situation. One editor seems to be arguing against on the basis of a lack of democratic legitimacy but as others have mentioned that is a political argument and not really the type of reason Wikipedia has ever or should act upon. Among the responders who have directly engaged with the second point the idea of splitting the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan into an article just about the historic Taliban regime and removing information on the present day one seems to be far more controversial.

Based on this I think the best way to move forward is to update the article by copying but not removing relevant information from the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and updating the infobox and introduction to reflect the current de facto state. Whilst leaving the future of the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan to the ongoing discussions on that talk page.

I will try to @ everyone who has participated in the discussion below but please point out if I've missed anybody. BSMRD Czello Chipmunkdavis GhostOfNoMeme Moxy IntUnderflow WittyWidi Kamran Tetra DonFB Gwennie-nyan PaleoMatt Danre98 Avilich Jibran1998

Llewee (talk) 10:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

FYI pings do not work if you do not add a signature in the exact same edit as you make the pings. On the message, given the announcement of a government only occurred about a day ago, I am not sure how much sooner the time could have come, but I do agree that external sources seem to be covering the announcement as being the new government of Afghanistan, and this page should reflect that. I don't see what needs to be copied over Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan though. This article's governance section should be updated to reflect the new Government, and the lead and infobox updated in turn. The other article does not have an updated governance section, and its infobox additions appear mostly unsourced, leaving it a poor template. CMD (talk) 12:22, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

As stated before "This article should remain the parent article for the country with it being updated as needed as has been done in the past when other governments have been formed.".Moxy- 12:29, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

BSMRD Czello Chipmunkdavis GhostOfNoMeme Moxy IntUnderflow WittyWidi Kamran Tetra DonFB Gwennie-nyan PaleoMatt Danre98 Avilich Jibran1998 apologies Llewee (talk) 15:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

This sounds good to me, let's do it 👍, thanks for the ping btw :) IntUnderflow (talk) 16:21, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Looks good to me! WittyWidi (talk) 16:52, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

• If Llewee's argument 1 is to be implemented (which I support), then argument 2 ceases to be controversial, as there would be no need for two separate articles (Afghanistan and Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan) dealing with the current administration. Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan can then be moved to Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan (1996–2001) without further controversy. I ask that those involved here consider this corollary and offer support to the proposal in the IEA page. Avilich (talk) 17:27, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.