Talk:2023–2024 Spanish protests

Noviembre Nacional

I'm fed up on this. The article of ElPlural [1] isn't a valid source (they quote Wikipedia and X/Twitter as a primary source). Unless a newspaper speaks about the use of that name in a serious way, any attempt to introduce the term in the article should be considered vandalism and an attempt to advertise a concrete ideology. We can disccuss the topic, but stop being bold. Basque mapping (talk) 16:18, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Impru20^talk 16:30, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Crespo, Rebeca (14 November 2023). «Noviembre Nacional, el nuevo movimiento juvenil contra la amnistía y en defensa de la cristiandad». La Gaceta de la Iberosfera Jorge bravo02 (talk) 17:46, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Press, Redacción digital Informativos Telecinco, Europa (15 November 2023). «TELECINCO - televisión a la carta, series y entretenimiento»

Escribano, Susana (14 November 2023). «Gallardo al megáfono gritando «noviembre nacional» y Veganzones al bote de «puto rojo»». El Norte de Castilla. Jorge bravo02 (talk) 17:47, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not known as "National November" in Spain except within some (very) far-right groups. Stop attempting to bring conflicts from the Spanish wiki to the English wiki. Impru20^talk 18:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

can you prove that? Jorge bravo02 (talk) 21:01, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Wrong way round, the claims flow towards proving something not disproving something. Until it is proved it cannot be included. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 15:10, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Bias

This article is ridden with political bias in favour of the nationalist right-wing. The Spanish translations in broken English are a telltale sign of the lack of journalistic preparation of whoever has been writing this up. Queenprincessprincess (talk) 16:06, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

The problem with the article is that it's basically a copy-paste from the article in the Spanish wiki, which has become a political battleground. I will add a NPOV tag to the article so that users may help contribute to it. Impru20^talk 19:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This article has been copy-edited and toned down. PicturePerfect666 (talk) 20:44, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Change of title

I think this article should change its title to 2023-2024 Spanish protests Dreimouse in an nutshell (talk) 11:25, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

No evidence of continuation in to 2024, if so please provide details PicturePerfect666 (talk) 00:54, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Protests ended

Given that we havent had any news regarding any of the protests from Spain for at least two months, can we therefore officially declare the protests over? 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:9CDB:9885:B570:E2F4 (talk) 21:15, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

As a Spanish citizen, I confirm, the protests are still ongoing. Dreimouse in an nutshell (talk) 18:39, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Personal experience constitutes original research, and as such, you should not insert this into the article. From the 'in a nutshell' at the top of the page: "All material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source". We need to be able to verify any claims you make in an article.

We ask that editors provide a reliable source & appropriately cite those sources. If you're unsure how to do so, here is a referencing guide for beginners. Sources in Spanish would be fine, although sources in English are preferred. You can try and find some sources from a list of frequently discussed sources (aiming to find something from a source deemed generally reliable) regarding the protests, and whether or not they are ongoing.

I hope this helps! Schrödinger's jellyfish ✉ 22:56, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Is there any proof of that? You have not provided any. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:B027:6DCA:8A2A:D34F (talk) 20:48, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Title move back

Since no evidence has been granted proving the protests have been going into this yeara, the title shuold be moved back to "2023 Spanish Protests against Catalan amnesty", because frankly this whole weekslong debate without any evidence if the protests are ongoing when they clearly have stopped is getting ludicrous. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:6D6D:96B4:58C3:9331 (talk) 20:30, 10 February 2024 (UTC))

Protected

Per a request at WP:RPPI I have fully protected the article for two weeks due to the edit warring. Reliable sources are required for information added to an article. Any administrator can be asked to remove the protection once a consensus is established here, or notify me. Johnuniq (talk) 04:16, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Edit request

Hello. When I asked that the page be protected, I asked that some of the unsourced editing be undone. I ask that the title be changed to 2023 Spanish protests against Catalan amnesty and that the duration of the protests be changed to October 29-November 18, which is 20 days. The reason for it is that the user who changed both the title and the duration did so without providing any sources that the protests were ongoing, and the sources we do have are in agreement that the protests ended in 2023, and that the protests were about Catalan amnesty, rather than amnesty in general, so it will make the article look more up to date. 2607:FEA8:7221:F600:6D6D:96B4:58C3:9331 (talk) 04:43, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

You should probably wait. See my reply at User talk:Johnuniq#Spanish protests edit. Johnuniq (talk) 05:15, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Protests appear to have continued into 2024

While I cannot speak Spanish, after an earlier content dispute (see earlier post), I located some potential sources from the Spanish Wikipedia article about the protests appearing to continue into 2024:

• This article in Spanish, though it looks to be behind a paywall & I cannot speak Spanish
• This English source, while supposedly by AFP I am unable to locate it elsewhere
• Another English source, although this page isn't loading for me

I hope this helps the content dispute. Searching "Spain protests amnesty (or Catalan) 2024" gets drowned out by recent farmers' protests. Schrödinger's jellyfish ✉ 20:50, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

This just appears to be one particular protest. Just one protest wont work, there have to be multiple protests mentioned in the new year for it to qualify. If this is the only one, it can be mentioned in a follow up section, but just a single one should not be considered part of the protests that occurred last year. So unless there are multiple protests that can be proven to have occurred in December and January, then it can't be considered to have moved into 2024, but if this is the only one, then it should not count because a single one does not follow the pattern required for mass protests. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:8C53:B23E:5EF1:BBDA (talk) 00:28, 12 February 2024 (UTC))

It looks as if recently lawmakers are looking at the bill or voting on it or something. I suppose it's just a matter of "wait and see" again. Schrödinger's jellyfish ✉ 04:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

It appears as though the protests did indeed end in November, and that they certainly have been over for a while. https://efe.com/en/other-news/2024-02-12/spains-pp-looks-to-bury-controversy-of-feijoo-mulling-pardons-for-catalan-separatists/ The term "led" is used repeatedly in the article, and there is no indication anywhere that any protests have been ongoing. This article seems to confirm that the protests over Catalan amnesty seemed to end in mid November. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:68CF:B95B:FA8E:9129 (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC))

I'm curious if there's something on the corresponding article on the Spanish Wikipedia, given the update to the title here without any update to the content. I'll try to flag someone from a related WikiProject who can hopefully give some more context to why people are changing the article name.

@Dreimouse in a nutshell, courtesy ping as you've been involved in prior discussions here. I'll find the name of the page mover shortly, on my phone at the moment. Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 13:43, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

@Unidosporasensio, giving you a ping as well. Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 13:44, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

It appears at es:Protestas contra la amnistía en España (2023-2024) there is a fully fleshed out 2024 section, presumably with reliable sources. I will try to flag down @Unidosporasensio on es wiki for a potential translation, since my attempts to reach out on en wiki haven't worked. I'm happy to copy edit as long as someone who can speak Spanish and can reliably translate is able to do so.

Pardon the ping, @Firefangledfeathers, but this should hopefully be the end of this content dispute.

Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 18:13, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I can not edit the article, its blocked for non-admins. Unidosporasensio (talk) 20:17, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, it was protected after the page was moved due to a content dispute regarding the name.

Right now, to edit the article, you'd have to make a request to edit the article. I've pinged the admin who temporarily protected the page to lift it, as (presumably with reliable sources) on es wiki the article has been updated with multiple references indicating the protests have continued into 2024.

In the meantime, though, if you or another editor would be willing to translate the 2024 section of the Spanish article in your sandbox or in an edit request here, it'd be great to get the article updated ASAP to match its new title. :) Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 20:23, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh, okey, I'll take a look at the article, probably I'll send the translation of the January 2024 and February 2024 parts of the page this week. Unidosporasensio (talk) 22:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Would "Spanish protests against Catalan amnesty (2023-2024)" potentially be a more clear title? Schrödinger's jellyfish ✉ 02:57, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

I added move protection. Johnuniq, as the one who added edit protection, thoughts on the above? Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 22:55, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oops, my apologies! Schrödinger's jellyfish ✉ 23:03, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I have removed the edit protection. Johnuniq (talk) 02:55, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree with your edit summary that a little more move protection won't hurt. I'm about to unwatchlist, so please ping me if this article needs more attention (or re-file at WP:RFPP). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:08, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Since there appears to be only one protest that seems to have occurred in January of this year, I would argue instead for that to be mentioned in a follow up article, rather than saying the protests are formally continuing. Generally, Wikipedia is very strong on singular protests not counting when it comes to looking at protests that deserve their own page, it has to be consistent. I argue instead that the page be termed "2023 Spanish protests against Catalan amnesty" with a follow up section covering that particular 2024 protest, since it appears to be the only one that occurred this year. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:3946:4D72:4134:4C93 (talk) 16:06, 19 February 2024 (UTC))

Could someone please give proof that there were multiple protests in this year? This has been a recurring issue for this article, that people say the protests are ongoing, and they don't give any sources that show it. The person who changed the title is an excellent example of this, so unless it can be proven that there were protests on this issue that occurred in this year, the title should be changed to "2023 Spanish protests against Catalan amnesty", since all the sources indicate the protests stopped in mid November. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:3946:4D72:4134:4C93 (talk) 15:56, 19 February 2024 (UTC))

Take a look at the spanish article. There are actually a lot of protests against the amnesty in Spain in 2024, I am working hard translating the text from spanish to english. Thank you. Unidosporasensio (talk) 16:03, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

As stated here, Unido is translating that section of the Spanish article. I wouldn't be shocked (since these protests mainly seem to be in Madrid) if only Spanish news or local news are covering new protests. After a brief overview of the corresponding article in Spanish (linked at the top right of the page on desktop view), you can see a pretty well-sourced section there that simply needs to be translated for the English version.

While the page move was premature it's a bit pointless to move it back to the old name while someone is actively translating. If the sources are reliable and the translation is accurate, there's really not a need to move it back. To be honest, past making sure there's reliable sources and the content matches the title, I have no deeper opinions on the protests themselves and whether or not they "count" as direct continuation. If it's a protest against Catalan amnesty, it's a protest against Catalan amnesty. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 16:49, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Since editing the source on my phone is a pain - patience is a virtue. I'd rather leave the article hanging for a few more days and get a good, higher quality translation of the sourced section from the Spanish article than scrounge something together using the few English-language sources available. Phönedinger's jellyfish II (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Title change

Okay, whoever changed the title really got it wrong. The title should instead be "Spanish protests against Catalan amensty" since Spanish protests against amnesty is far too vague and misleading. (2607:FEA8:7221:F600:9C56:D3E9:2A20:F169 (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2024 (UTC))

I agree Unidosporasensio (talk) 00:03, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Confusion total

First, this was not the only polemic in 2003/4. The issue of the proposed amnesty goes back to the imposition of O-11 referendum, the imposition of clause 155 of the constitution and the flight of Pugimont, leading to his ability to evade capture in Belgium and Germany. This whole subject needs a thorough rethink to distinguish this single issue from a plethora of Spanis political intrigue (IMHO)see Catalan independence movement Timpo (talk) 17:36, 29 March 2024 (UTC)