Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Vietnam/Archive 4

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Undiscussed page moves

Please see Special:Contributions/Kauffner. Badagnani (talk) 12:20, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

A good editor, worth bringing him into active membership of the project. Itsmejudith (talk) 13:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I concur. Badagnani (talk) 13:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

University project editing Vietnamese religions articles

Has anybody else noticed the registration of Adsoucy (talk · contribs), a university professor who intends to have his students write articles on Vietnamese relgion for Wikipedia? YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 04:15, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I noticed it; it seems like a good idea. Do they intend to create new articles in this subject area? If so, which ones? That user could make a subpage of his/her userpage or our WikiProject page (or just use our WikiProject's "articles to be created" section) to plan out the creation of such articles. Badagnani (talk) 04:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure yet. I think the professor is just getting used to the syntax and all that so please be polite to him. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) 04:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Someone should remind him that his students need to have individual accounts if they don't edit anonymously. Other univ professors assigned group accounts to students, and it irked some people at Village Pump, etc. 76.66.196.229 (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Please help to find sources

• The Hundred-knot Bamboo Tree (AfD discussion)

A mere two sources, documenting (not simply re-telling, note — secondary sources, not primary sources) this story in depth, would change the opinions of several editors. Uncle G (talk) 13:19, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I have source in Vietnamese, this story is being taught at primary schools (Grade 5 textbook).--Amore Mio (talk) 14:32, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Vietnam War

I noticed there's a dead WP: WikiProject Vietnam War (covering the French and American Wars of recent vintage) ... perhaps someone should create a joint task force between WPVIETNAM and WP:MILHIST covering this period? 76.66.196.229 (talk) 22:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Spelling For Vietnam Red cross

The Red cross society website mentions Vietnam spelling as Viet nam [[1] instead of Vietnam.I put that way when I created the stub.Now a user wants it to be changed .Can anyone associated with Vietnam take a call.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 16:23, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:56, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone care if I do it? YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 08:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Unilateral article title changes, again

See http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/AlbertHerring . Badagnani (talk) 04:23, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I was requested by User:Dr. Blofeld to help him perform page moves; he, in turn, seems to have discussed it with User:Mr Accountable, who is a member of this Project. Consequently, I assumed it was OK. --User:AlbertHerring ^{Io son l'orecchio e tu la bocca: parla!} 05:22, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Please refer to earlier discussion on this page. Prior discussion is needed before a campaign of this type is engaged in. Please do so. Badagnani (talk) 05:31, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I am also a member of the project. The convention is to list Vietnamese names of people in the correct naming, places should be no different. Others aside from the 3 of us agree with this see here. I find it strange that you have objected to this as you yourself Badagani have created many articles using diuretics like Đoàn Minh Phượng. This is the correct name. If I was to move it to Doan Minh Phuong and all the others you'd probably object too, as the move would be incorrect. Basically the way in which the districts were listed was incorrect and it is standardising them like names of people. There is absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be standardised as "official" naming. Wikipedia should strive to stick to official naming schemes as much as possible. Even in my english language National Geographic atlas the places of towns in Vietnam are on the map in the diaretics. On the same way the articles we have on Lomé for instance is in the correct naming with the accent, not under "Lome". Aside from this the convention on wikipedia is to list Province or District after a division to avoid confusion between what is a town or district. When I get around to starting the communes this distinction will certainly need to be made as communes have the same titles as the districts. Aside from this there does not seem to be overwhelming evidence that this project is very active in this area judging by the states of the geo articles. You should be glad people are bothering to sort out and trying to improve the sub stubs articles on these places,. Even many of our articles on the main provinces are still stubs so forgive me for thinking there wasn't that many people around interested in coming to a consensus on it. If I had posted here beforehand, the likelihood would be that I would get a response from few people. Sorry if there are tens of people who would have liked to discuss the issue first. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:17, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Not only is there a great deal of disambiguation involved in districts, towns, villages and communes, there is also disambiguation involved in non-diacriticalized names. --Mr Accountable (talk) 18:40, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, so even if people disagree with moving to the official names, these pages would have had to have been moved soon enough anyway as communes and main village sin the districts share the same name as the district. As it was before the districts were under a naming scheme that would be used on articles on towns rather than districts. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Is there a source that the official name is "X District" etc? People don't usually use "California State" "Tamil Nadu state" "Guangdong Province" etc, although for some reason everything in VN is tagged "Vinh Long Province etc". In the case of things like "District 1, Saigon", "5th Arrondissement, Paris" etc, the common nouns are needed but where do the Province and District come into most of the proper nouns. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 02:57, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Even more undiscussed page moves

See http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Special:Contributions/Vanhoabui Badagnani (talk) 14:52, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Can someone move Perfume Temple -> Perfume Pagoda?--Amore Mio (talk) 23:16, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 04:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Hung Yen Province

Article needs attention. I found it in the list of those needing wikifying, and I've done a bit, but it needs more loving care. I'm tempted to cut much of the dull listing of administrative boundaries right the way from the Hung Kings period to post 1945. But I'm not going to do anything drastic without further opinions. Itsmejudith (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Article alerts

This is a notice to let you know about Article alerts, a fully-automated subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering Articles for deletion, Requests for comment, Peer review and other workflows (full list). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found here.

If you are already subscribed to Article Alerts, it is now easier to report bugs and request new features. We are also in the process of implementing a "news system", which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the display=none parameter, but forget to give a link to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Wikipedia:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at Wikipedia talk:Article alerts.

Message sent by User:Addbot to all active wiki projects per request, Comments on the message and bot are welcome here.

Thanks. — Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 09:50, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

1960 South Vietnamese coup attempt on the main page

With vandalism today too....YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

"Hanh"

Hi, I just recreated a redirect for that word because the article I wanted to go to did not appear in the search results I got. However, a text search turned up a number of apparently Vietnam-related articles using that word too, so maybe someone who understands Vietnam better than I do might want to turn it into a disambiguation page. Best regards, Yaan (talk) 11:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hanh might stand for "Hạnh" (a popular human name, means Happiness) or "Hành" (Allium fistulosum).--Amore Mio (talk) 14:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

ancient sources

There's a notice at WT:CHINA about the usage of ancient Chinese sources. Since some articles about ancient Vietnam will probably use some ancient Chinese sources, this may be of interest to you. See Wikipedia_talk:Did_you_know/TangTalk. 70.29.213.241 (talk) 06:38, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Buddha's Birthday and Vesak

Hi, everyone. We have a DYK event for Buddha's Birthday and Vesak just like events for Christmas or April Fool's day. Many of Vietnamese culture is based on Buddhism, so I think you guys can create/edit interesting Buddhist articles in upcoming five days. Once you create or five fold expand Buddhist related articles (famous temples, monks, movies, literature, paintings, foods, etc) within 5 days, and then nominate it to the below place. After a review, your article can be featured on the main page. So be hurry if you are interested. :) Thanks.

Template talk:Did you know#Articles created/expanded for Buddha's Birthday (May 2) and Vesak (May 9) --Caspian blue 19:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

translation needed: Turtle Tower

A new page, Turtle Tower, showed up. Most of it is not in English- I'm hoping someone can look at it and translate. If you have questions for me, let me know- I don't watch this page. tedder (talk) 04:20, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ngo Dinh Diem presidential visit to Australia/archive1 open

FAC is open YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 06:56, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for a 200-WikiProject contest

A proposal has been posted for a contest between all 200 country WikiProjects. We're looking for judges, coordinators, ideas, and feedback.

The Transhumanist 00:39, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

IP vandalism, need some help

See [2][3][4][5]. I wonder it fall into WP:SOAPBOX or not, but these edits and discussions, IMO, really like some kind of insult. Because this IP reverted my edits and commented that they are POV[6] (it means that I didn't obey WP policies), I'm confused and don't know what to do. Someone who is familiar with WP policies please help.--Amore Mio ^(talk) 05:55, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ignore it. I'll lock it so anons can't edit YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 04:41, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

DYK for Tăng Tuyết Minh

I wrote an article on Ho Chi Minh‎'s secret Chinese wife and nominated it DYK. Kauffner (talk) 13:38, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Well done. How mayn are there in all? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 02:05, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the wording of the nom should be reworded. Their wedding was a public wedding with many witnesses, so it's hardly a secret. DHN (talk) 04:02, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hà Tiên, Kiên Giang

I declined the speedy deletion because it seems to be promoting a place rather than a company, product or person, but the tone is promotional and the article needs help, if anyone would like to take a look. - Dank (push to talk) 16:53, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not merge into Ha Tien? YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) 00:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, I added the merge proposal. - Dank (push to talk) 01:29, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

WikiProject Vietnam userbox

Is there a WikiProject Vietnam userbox banner to put on member pages?

Many of the regional and by-country WikiProjects have member userboxes.

For example;

{{User WikiProject China}}

produces this userbox:

This user is a participant in
WikiProject China.

See also:

• Category:Regional WikiProjects
• Category:WikiProject user templates

--Timeshifter (talk) 11:37, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's on my talk page YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 00:52, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Madame Ngô Đình Nhu a gunslinging Dragon Lady?

I have heard persistent stories for several years now that Madame Ngô Đình Nhu used those pistols she was often photographed with, upon those who incurred her wrath. Examples I've heard include her shooting a hairdresser who gave her a bad 'do, and sniping at strategic hamlets from a helicopter. Google search brings up nothing, maybe I don't have the right keywords, maybe the text is all in Vietnamese, which I can't read... Help? Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 13:40, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Flag of Vietnam

Djwilms has left a question. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 01:42, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I note the comment that Gia Long's flag was used in 1885 during the Can Vuong uprising. But what was the historical flag of Annam between 1840 and 1885, i.e. during the reigns of Minh Mang, Thieu Tri, Tu Duc, Hiep Hoa, Kien Phuc and Ham Nghi? As a student of the Cochinchina Campaign (1860s) and the Sino-French War (1880s), I was under the impression that it was plain yellow (this would explain the later French protectorate flag, which places a tricolour in the canton of an otherwise plain yellow flag). I note that a plain yellow flag has been included in the infoboxes for some of the battles of the Tonkin campaign and the Sino-French War, while Gia Long's flag has been used for the events of the Cochinchina Campaign. Can anyone confirm what the historical flag of Annam was at this period?

The French sources I have immediately to hand are not that helpful. In battle contexts (e.g. Battle of Thuan An, Capture of Nam Dinh), they merely describe the Vietnamese flag as 'the yellow flag of Annam'. That could equally well describe Gia Long's flag and a plain yellow flag.

Finally, if it was (as I suspect) a plain yellow flag, can anyone reproduce the correct shade of yellow? The 'racing yellow' presently used in the campaign infoboxes is surely wrong. I imagine the flag was the same shade of yellow as on the later French protectorate flag.

Djwilms (talk) 03:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Chinese suzerainty over Vietnam

I've noticed some interest in the question of whether, and to what extent, Vietnam was a tributary of China during the Ch'ing dynasty. I'd like to explore this question further on this page. I have nearly completed a book on the Sino-French War, which was fought over precisely this issue, and I would welcome views, particularly from Vietnamese contributors, on whether my interpretation of this so-called tributary relationship is correct.

In my view, it did not exist between the fifteenth and eighteenth centuries, and was only invoked out of expediency in the nineteenth century in response to the threat from France.

China's claim to suzerainty over Vietnam, which was implicitly renounced at the end of the Sino-French War under Article 2 of the Treaty of Tientsin (June 1885), was far weaker than the Chinese often made out. After the Chinese were definitively expelled from Vietnam in the fifteenth century, I find little record of tribute missions to Peking until Gia Long's mission of 1803. Gia Long had just reunited Vietnam, and the extension of his rule to Tonkin was bound to be of concern to China. Gia Long felt it prudent to give China some face. Thereafter, no tribute missions are recorded during the reigns of Minh Mang or Thieu Tri. They were revived by Tu Duc in the 1860s as a response to French aggression in Cochinchina. I see them as little more than the sort of appeal any small power faced with aggression would make to a powerful neighbour that might be persuaded to step in and help out. Whatever the Chinese thought, I don't think the Vietnamese considered themselves as tributaries in any meaningful sense.

In the following extract from my forthcoming book on the Sino-French War, I examine the issue in greater detail.

Given that the Vietnamese had long ago thrown off Chinese direct rule, it is worthwhile examining the validity of China's claim to suzerainty over Vietnam. It has been claimed that Vietnam was one of China’s most assiduous courtiers during the Ch'ing period. This is certainly not true for the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, and for the nineteenth century holds true only for Gia Long's mission of 1803 and for a flurry of missions sent by the emperor Tu Duc during the 1860s and 1870s. All these missions were motivated by pure expediency on the part of the Vietnamese. Gia Long had used the French to recover the Le throne, but thought it useful to entrench his position by seeking investiture from China. In China's eyes he and his successors were therefore vassal princes. But this was not how Gia Long saw himself. In 1806, only three years after his investiture as 'prince of Vietnam', he proclaimed himself emperor of Annam. For the rest of his reign he had nothing to do with China, and even claimed for Vietnam China's cherished title of 'Middle Kingdom', implicitly denying the centrality of the alien Manchu Ch'ing dynasty that had ruled China since 1644.

His successor Minh Mang (1820–41), warming to this theme, liked to contrast 'orthodox Vietnam' with 'decadent China'. The emperor Thieu Tri (1841–7) also ignored China. Only during the reign of Tu Duc (1847–83) are tribute missions to Peking recorded with any regularity. Five missions to China were sent between 1869 and 1880. But even Tu Duc did not think it worth sending a mission to Peking until the twenty-second year of his reign. He changed his mind in 1869 only because of steady French encroachment on Vietnamese sovereignty during the 1860s. The 1869 mission, crucially, was provoked by the loss of three Vietnamese provinces to France only two years earlier. This and subsequent missions to China were no more than the kind of diplomatic appeal any country threatened with conquest might make to a neighbour powerful enough to intervene. They were essentially pragmatic, and certainly not motivated by any sense of vassalage to China.

During its dispute with France over Tonkin, China would insist that Vietnam had been a vassal of China since time immemorial, and that China therefore had an inalienable right to be consulted on Vietnamese affairs. Surprisingly, the French diplomats failed to challenge this claim by examining its basis in historical fact. Instead, they accepted it at face value and simply argued that times had moved on. In fact, China’s pretensions to suzerainty over Vietnam were neither long-standing nor particularly impressive. The French might have saved themselves much later trouble if they had deflated them with a brief history lesson.

Does that represent a fair statement of the situation? I would welcome comments.

Djwilms (talk) 03:37, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Wikisir,

Would I, humble (book)worm in sino-vietnamese history, dare make humble suggestions to the honourable scholar Djwilms?

Yes.

1. First, you happily mix different terms (tributary, suzerainty, vassalage) which have different meanings in English (for example, there can be a tributary relation of A vis-à-vis B without sovereignty of B over A) – and may even mean different things when applied to different periods of (Western) history. These terms are themselves approximate translations of Chinese (and sino-vietnamese) terms which have themselves changed meaning over time.

2. Second, the subordinate relationship between China and Vietnam is not reflected only by tribute missions sent from Vietnam to China. It included also:

• a. The letters patent (tche-chou) issued by the Peking court to the Annam ruler. Devéria (1880) discusses the issue of the proper translation of tche_chou (footnote 1, p.7)
• b. The very humiliating investiture ceremonies during which the new Annam emperor had to kneel down three times and kowtow nine times in front of the emissaries of the Chinese court. The Chinese even insisted that at each of the nine kowtows, the front of the Annam ruler had to touch the ground. Lê-hiên-tông (1740-1786) could avoid the ceremony for 20 years because his uncle Lê Ý Tông (1735-1740) had resigned and was still alive (the investiture ceremony was usually combined with a ceremony for the former Annam emperor). When he received he imperial investiture in 1761 and tried to do only five kowtows, he was publicly scolded by the celest envoys and had got to comply. He was later sent a blistering imperial decree dated 1762 reminding him that he had better follow the proper étiquette and that his unruly behaviour was pardoned just because “the customs of this price have remained primitive”. Gabriel Devéria The Vietnamese had paid some of the expenses of the imperial emissaries; this was unacceptable, and the decree ordered with the utmost contempt the money to be given back to the Annam envoy.
• c. The imperial seal provided by China to the Vietnamese emperor. When Lê Huyền Tông (1663-1671) asked for the imperial investiture to the new Manchu court, the latter requested Annam to return beforehand the seal given in 1659 by a Ming prince (a kind of unsuccessful de Gaulle) to his father Lê Thần Tông (1649-1662). Lê Huyền Tông dragged his feet for three years (who knows? The Ching may make a comeback!) and returned the seal only in 1666. He could then receive the official investiture.
• d. Plenty of other testimonies of submission, such as the numerous missions to the viceroys of Guangdong and Yunnan.

3. I am very surprised that you could write “In my view, it (i.e., a tributary relationship?) did not exist between the fifteenth and eighteenth centuries”. In 1663, the Chinese court requested Annam to send a tribute every three years, a frequency strangely replaced around 1672 by two tributes every six years. Devéria (1880) lists a number of tribute mission sent by Annam before the reign of Gia Long.

4. You say that "no tribute missions are recorded during the reign of Minh Mang". Maurice Durand (1957) provides the details of such a mission (and indications on many others). As for Thiệu Trị, I do not know of his relations – if any - with the Peking court.

5. It seems clear that China’s "suzerainty" over Vietnam had been steadily eroding over the years. China was decaying and too busy with its innumerable revolts, its secret societies uprisings (down with the Ching, bring back the Ming!) and those incomprehensible foreign devils (the gun-toting and the bible-fundamentalist-martyrdom-seekers ones) to deal with its equally petrified southern neighbour. It also seems clear that Tự Đức sudden sinophily was politically motivated. If suzerainty implies control over foreign affairs and limited autonomy, it can be argued that China had lost "suzerainty" over Annam since Lê Lợi.

File:Kowtow.jpg

6. But it also seems that Annam remained a tributary of China until 1874, although mainly – and increasingly - at a symbolic level, and with increasing delays and "oversights" (Thiệu Trị?). Would I dare say that "the Vietnamese considered themselves as formally tributaries, but not as vassals in any meaningful sense"? Yes.

7. Anyway, are suzerain / vassal proper terms to describe the evolving relationship between China and Annam? One could even consider whether newer terms would be more appropriate. Annam was clearly not a puppet State a satellite State or a client State - there was not a single representative from Peking at the Huê court to influence local policies (or am I wrong?). Protectorate seems inadequate - China did not protect Annam against its neighbours. Buffer state looks awkward. But after all, China saw Annam as a hedge between the Middle Kingdom and faraway devils.

After having exposed my almost total ignorance of the subject, will the great Wikischolar forgive my impudent impertinence?

Three kowtows and best wishes for your book.--André de StCoeur (talk) 22:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Help uploading my photos of Vietnam

Back around February I ended up suddenly going on a trip to Saigon on some urgent family matters and I ended up taking a large number of photos with the intention on putting them on Commons. A few days before that, I also went to a Tet Festival and took photos there. It's July now, and I've realised that I don't want to look over all the photos for uploading. This is because I do not want to think too long on what I experienced during those few weeks.

Because of that, I would like to ask if anyone is interested in sorting, editing, and uploading the usable photos for me. I also need a suggestion on how/where I'll make the initial uploading of the photos, since I am unsure of Commons and whether all the photos are actually valid. At the very least I'll give some general information on of the photos first, and I'll give additional info if required.

Looking over the folder again, there are 14 folders full of photos, that were numbered by the camera. There is actually nearly 1GB here, rather than the 700+MB I mentioned to YellowMonkey yesterday. There's probably nearly 1000 photos here, but many pictures were taken for redundancy. I have not touched the images at all since I left Vietnam, besides copying them to my PC.

Just going from memory, these are some of the photo's contents:

• Of the Tet Festival from Inala, Brisbane:

• Some foods, stalls

• Of Saigon:

• local and restaurant foods
• street vehicles, traffic, signs, conditions
• posters, ads/propaganda
• buildings
• anything interesting

• On the way to/from, and of the countryside:

• signs/propaganda
• rivers, fields, rice fields
• a grave or two
• cell phone towers
• flora
• some specific countryside constructs
• a bridge built with Australian assistance, and had a commemorative sign

Many photos were taken whilst driving, so I am unsure of window glare.

Any response/suggestions/assistance would be appreciated, as I do not know if or when I could do this myself. - Zero1328 _Talk? 05:46, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

1000 images, that sounds great! I think except posters/ad/propaganda, everything sounds find for uploading. Use Commons:Commonist which is a free Java program for such the purpose - large quantity uploading to Wikimedia Commons. I learned how to use it yesterday, but it is easy to use and reduce time. If you're not sure about food name or something, just name them like File:Vitetnamese food-01.jpg.--Caspian blue 06:00, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

My computer doesn't like big images and it would take too long to upload, even when I crop them to reduce size. Propaganda is definitely fine, as Viet govt stuff is PD. Not sure why a photo of an ad would be illegal beecause the ad is there to promtoe something else so advertising it doesnt make it stealing other people';s stuff we're effectively spamming for them. YellowMonkey (cricket calendar poll!) paid editing=POV 06:54, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Lien Thanh

Has this fellow Major Lien Thanh, the former head of police in Hue come round to your area to speak about his new book "Bien Dong Mien Trung" about the Buddhist crisis in 1966, the Tet Offensive and Hue Massacre in 1968 and the 1972 communist offensive? I presume he went around the US before Australia. Apparently 1000+ people turned up in Melbourne. About 300 people here came out of maybe 12,000 Viets in the city, although only about 1% were under 45. He made some quite sensational claims about Thich Tri Quang etc [which violated BLP so I won't repeat it here], and all these people he claimed to be communists. The crowd, as far as I can tell, was more like an organised Diemist demonstration. Actually more like any Asian country where teh govt cadres tell the villagers to applaud at the end. There were a stack of people who all started clapping and cheering in a raucous way each time he bagged Thich Tri Quang, and their way of doing it didn't appear surprised as though they were taking new info, it seemed feigned. Most of them were well known Catholic activists lol. YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 03:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Oops on Wikisource

Could someone please pop over to wikisource:vi:Tập tin:Constitution vietnamese reformat 16apr09.pdf and put a speedy delete tag on it. You can use {{db-author}} - see request here or {{db-copyvio}} - the article says "by kind permission of" which is not good enough. — RHaworth (Talk | contribs) 12:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject TRANSWIKI

You are all invited to join WikiProject TRANSWIKI and join the Vietnamese language transwiki project. The aim is to draw up a full directory of missing articles from Vietnamese wikipedia and build a team of translators to work at bridging the gaps in knowledge and to improve existing articles by translation and finding reliable sources to back up information. We need your help, so if there are any Vietnamese speakers here please join up as your language skills are crucial. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 11:26, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Source self-censorship/incompetent translation at Operation Bribie

This article says

On the side the Viet Cong had written in blood: "DU ME UC DAI LOI", loosely translated as "Aussies Get Stuffed"

and is referenced. Well the source is wrong, as the slogan is obscene, and I suspect that if it wasn't a mistake due to translating skill, if was a deliberate mistake to avoid a [rather strong] obscenity for perhaps Political correctness reasons. Should it just be changed to its real meaning? YellowMonkey (cricket photo poll!) paid editing=POV 07:12, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

East Asian calligraphy

Hello, there is a contest against totally undiscussed cut-and-paste blanking/merging/splitting of East Asian calligraphy by Asoer (talk · contribs). I don't see any active discussion on the edit, so there is naturally no consensus for that. Since it is pertinent to at least "four WikiProject", I'm drawing your attention to the article and hope you would give some useful input on the matter on Talk:East Asian calligraphy. Any active members who are interests in East Asian culture/art would be greatly helpful for the issue. Thanks.--Caspian blue 03:22, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_China#What_to_call_East_Asian_calligraphy. Asoer (talk) 04:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Transport or Transportation

Retain which category - only one is needed? Hugo999 (talk) 05:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

• Category:Transport disasters in Vietnam or Category:Transportation disasters in Vietnam (has more subcategories)

The latter. The parent category Category:Transportation disasters by country exists, but the corresponding "Transport" category doesn't. --dragfyre_ʞןɐʇc 23:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

traditional units

I've noticed that there are articles for Taiwanese units of measurement , Japanese units of measurement , Chinese units of measurement ... is there one for Vietnamese units of measurement ? 76.66.196.139 (talk) 10:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hán Tự

I see a lot of Hán Tự names in introduction part of articles about Vietnamese provinces and cities (Tuyên Quang, Hải Phòng), is this really necessary? Because they are all modern administrative units and of course no one in Vietnam nowadays uses Hán Tự names for them. If necessary, I suggest that we include Hán Tự names only in the "History" part of articles, not in the introduction part. Please share your opinion about this issue. Thank you. 78.250.114.125 (talk) 11:58, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Tuyên Quang, Hải Phòng is old provinces which was founded and named before 1954; so Han Tu version of their name is necessary. Nowadays, in Vietnam, Hán Tự is not popular as it used to be but Han Tu still is being used limitedly in historical or geographical books & researches. The issue here is not if Han Tu is necessary but how Han Tu would be included in these article. Your idea of including Han Tu in history section is good but how could we include Han Tu in short articles such as Tuyen Quang? I think the best way is that we should have a infobox template (like {{Chinese}}) and put all Han Tu there.--AM ^(talk) 15:17, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The IP's talk above is mine, I forgot to sign in, sorry for the inconvenience. The fact is using Hán Tự names in the introduction part may cause a wrong idea for non-Vietnamese reader that Hán Tự names are still used as a current name in Vietnam, that's why I'd like to avoid that confusion. I don't think a template like {{Chinese}} is better either, instead of that, I prefer one or two lines about "Etymology"/"Naming"/"Origin of name" below the introduction part like this one. How about that idea? Grenouille vert (talk) 16:26, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, but how about short articles like Bắc Kạn Province, Lang Son Province?. Would you like to start a new section only to write "the old Han Tu for XXX is ..."?--AM ^(talk) 18:01, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually I don't have source about the origin of place-names in Vietnam, for example, I think Bắc Kạn is pure Vietnamese name without Hán Tự root but I cannot be sure without reliable source. In the case of Lạng Sơn, we can introduce one sentence like that: "Lạng Sơn (Hán Tự:...) means "Lạng mountain", that's enough. What do you think? Grenouille vert (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

OK, that's good enough for me.--AM ^(talk) 00:57, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

In regard to the source of Han Tu, you could try to locate an old edition of the book "Viet Nam Su Luoc" in Vietnam or in French major university's libraries. It's a excellent work which contains mostly all Han Tu we need for work.--AM ^(talk) 03:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

It's much more complicated than that, because as you know, some current provinces are result of merging or dividing former administrative unit, so are their names, for example: (past) Vĩnh Phú = (present) Vĩnh Phúc + Phú Thọ or (past) Hà Nam Ninh = (past) Nam Hà + Ninh Bình = (present) Hà Nam + Nam Định + Ninh Bình, so what we need here is a geographic book specialized in place-names origin, i.e. a "modern Dư địa chí", and that's what I do not have. (I've just changed some articles as my above proposition). Grenouille vert (talk) 10:12, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

After 1975, there are no much in-depth geographic books which have Han Tu. Therefore, locating a modern "modern Dư địa chí" is mostly impossible. I think we should stick in the old books. Since you are in Paris, I suggest you locating publications of École française d'Extrême-Orient such as the encyclopedia Connaissance du Vietnam. Vietnamese books which could be found online are very limited and mostly are published before 1975. i.e this page.

And I think we should place the etymology section in the beginning of the article, not in the end. If the article already have a history section, we should add etymology there; don't start another etymology section. An article with a lot of sections which contain little information is not a good article.--AM ^(talk) 12:17, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

You can change those articles for a better look. In French universities's library, books about Vietnam are not that abundant as you think and access to EFEO's catalogue is very difficult. But of course I will try to find something useful for this subject. And by the way, I don't live in Paris :). Grenouille vert (talk) 13:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

about "Saigon Central Post Office"

In the article it reads "Gothic architectural style". I'd rather say it's "Romanic". Any art students out there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.193.173.253 (talk) 16:23, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Xa Loi Pagoda raids/archive1‎

Up and running YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 14:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Hiệp Thiên Đài

Article has been tagged as in need of wikification since December 2007. Does anyone know enough about Caodaism to do the final cleanup? Itsmejudith (talk) 14:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

WEll, you don't really need any knowledge to link stuff, but I don't think it is badly underlinked anyway YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (Invincibles Featured topic drive:one left) 20:59, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

No, so I will just take off the wikification tag. I assume that if the article had any other major problems you would have mentioned them. Thanks. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:34, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Nguyen ba lang

Biography of an architect, in need of translation. Saw it on the articles in need of translation page, just thought I'd copy here so more people will see it. If the subject proves not to be notable it can be speedied as a non-English page. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:22, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Nguyen Ba Lang was author of many architectural books which became important reference book in Vietnam and he is also the architect of Vinh Nghiem Pagoda. So I think he is notable.--AM ^(talk) 13:34, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

But the article has been speedied, so perhaps it could be re-created from VN wikipedia. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC) It was speedied as a copyvio. There is another largely Vietnamese language there now: Những_đứa_con_Sóc_Trăng. Even I can recognise that one - a list of notable people from Soc Trang province. Could be another copyvio. Itsmejudith (talk) 14:58, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Gialem Airport

Which airport is Gialem Airport in Hanoi? Does it have another name today, or is it still the same airport? WhisperToMe (talk) 18:36, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

It's always Gia Lam Airport. Your document misspells the airport's name. Grenouille vert (talk) 07:40, 1 January 2010 (UTC)