Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Martial arts/Kickboxing task force

Kickboxing task force project for 2018: Updating the notability requirements

Shall we finally update WP:NKICK? Everyone participating in the task force or anyone else who generally follows kickboxing should probably understand the current notability requirements are, and have been for years, completely unrepresentative of top level kickboxing athletes.

My suggestion, from prior discussion on this page, that didn't seem to have too much opposition:

-fought for a world title of a major promotion (K-1, Glory, Kunlun Fight), or
-been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source, or
-been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion, or
(we could change the date, but for now)
-before 1 June 2018, fought for a world title of an organization or a promotion (WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA, WKA).

This way the change wouldn't lead to any deletion of prior pages, would just improve things going forward.

For the eligible/justifiable title of a major promotion list I guess we could keep a door open for at least Glory of Heroes and Enfusion, If there is any demand for additional promotions being on that list. Let's see which direction they develop towards early 2018 and assess again before finally updating the notability requirements. Just K-1, Glory, Kunlun and top 10s could be a bit limiting?

Glory of Heroes just crowned Qiu Jianliang as their first champion outside of the WLF structure. The tournament final field was Qiu Jianliang, Dylan Salvador, Giga Chikadze and Aleksei Ulianov so fairly good competition.

Enfusion has had pretty good competition in their "leagues" and if those started feeding more into their title picture it could be quite decent. As of right now though, there has also been fairly random people out of nowhere getting title opportunities.

I'll ping at least the listed task force participants now, and even again before any change is made so there should be no surprises as there is ample time to achieve some kind of consensus. Or perhaps again there is little activity in the discussion of bringing the notability requirements to any kind of level that even remotely makes sense. I'll be here regularly debating anyone about what the requirements should be. If there is no one to debate I'll assume consensus and proceed to update the requirements to the suggested ones above in June.

@PRehse:, @KINGFEDORQc:, @Mfnuf:, @Master Sun Tzu:, @Frenchcafe:, @Marajade75:, @Jimmy Peters:, @Yappakoredesho:, @JMichael22: thoughts? ShadessKB (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

In My opinion the Glory and Kunlun top 10 rankings(from their website pages) should be considered as notable also,they are the two biggest and arguably most important kickboxing organizations we have right now.

Also it is time to change the notability of kickboxing organizations here,lets be honest,WAKO, ISKA didnt represent the pinnacle of the sport since the early 2000´s.

Kunlun, Wu Lin Feng, K-1, Glory, Glory of Heroes, Krush, W5, Enfusion is where almost all of the kickboxing best and most notable fighters compete and not on WKN, ISKA and WAKO anymore

in my opinion the notability should also be given to fighters who have "x" numbers of fights under a notable organization(some of listed above),like it is for MMA requirements.

in fact there is a lot of fighters who are notable and cant have his wikipedia page made because of this old requirements,it is time to change in my humble opinion. Mfnuf (talk) 5 January

I don't think much of various promotions own rankings, but Kunlun needs to be added and haven't seen anyone oppose it. The standing of the organizations is seriously something I'd like to see anyone attempt to defend here. I feel like one of the worse things in kickboxing is the way the various organizations handle themselves and they are being rewarded on wikipedia for some reason. There's no hurry but I really would like more feedback on this discussion. i'm not letting this notability reform(!) die down due to inactivity this time around. The notability will be updated so give your thoughts please! ShadessKB (talk) 23:07, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

I wont comment on which organizations should be included as worthy at this point but we do have a choice to lean closer to MMA or boxing criteria. I prefer the latter and am strongly against using the promotions own rankings - the bias is just to strong and obvious. I also think care must be taken to limit the number of organizations whose titles count - even five is too much.PRehse (talk) 23:26, 4 January 2018 (UTC)

Also I was wondering if it should be mandatory for all professional kickboxers to have their fight records I noticed a lot of fighters especially female fighters don't have records of who they fought. I would like to see a massive effort to correct this. Dwanyewest (talk) 04:18, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

That'd be nice but never going to happen with a system like wikipedia when it's relatively so complicated to add anything.ShadessKB (talk) 21:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

One problem is that I'm not aware of a central storehouse for kickboxing records comparable to Sherdog for MMA and boxrec for boxing. Kickboxing has had too many organizations and levels to make it easy to obtain good records. The discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chandet Sorpantrey shows the problems that are encountered trying to verify records.

Regarding other topics in this thread I think it's generally a bad idea to rely on any organization's rankings to determine notability. I've seen fighters unranked by all but one of boxing's major organizations but one and they'd be given a title fight by that one organization. Boxing orgs are not known for their honesty and I think it's bad form to blindly assume any organization's rankings are free from bias, corruption, and dealings (both self and double). I do agree that the organization list can be updated and would suggest that organizations considered top tier (to use the MMA terminology) should come with dates. I'm not involved with kickboxers and the organizations like I once was, so I will bow out of the discussion about which ones are the best. Papaursa (talk) 00:35, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

We are approaching June so I'll just quickly ping the task force participants one again for any comments. @PRehse:, @KINGFEDORQc:, @Mfnuf:, @Master Sun Tzu:, @Frenchcafe:, @Marajade75:, @Jimmy Peters:, @Yappakoredesho:, @Dwanyewest:

My current suggestion, slightly reworded from the opening post:
-fought for a world title of a major promotion (K-1 Japan, Glory, Kunlun Fight), or
-been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source, or
-been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion, or
-prior to 1 June 2018, fought for a world title of an organization or a promotion (WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA, WKA).

There's still on and off more random events that crown "real" K-1 champions in Korea and Germany for example so being slightly more accurate I'd like to define it being the titles by the Japanese arm of K-1 being meaningful.

Honestly I'd like at least a 4th promotion in there but there isn't a completely clear one to add at this time. Glory of Heroes can be pretty good but they have also become much more inactive this year. Some Enfusion title contenders are pretty random too so adding them as 4th would open doors for more regional but in reality non notable fighters suddenly being wiki notable. Any suggestions? ShadessKB (talk) 20:45, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, inspired by the boxing notability:

-Fought for a world title of a major promotion (K-1 Japan, Glory, Kunlun Fight), or

-After 1 June 2018, has won a regular/full (non-interim) world title (Enfusion, Glory of Heroes), or

-Been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source, or

-Been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion, or

-Prior to 1 June 2018, fought for a world title of an organization or a promotion (WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA, WKA).

Some thoughts on adding Enfusion and Glory of Heroes, and just the title holders and not fighters who fought and lost:

-Enfusion brings some more women's titles

-there will still be fewer orgs/promotions than before and GoH specially doesn't even have many titles. Comparing to the current ones like WMC/ISKA/WAKO/WKN who have a lot more titles. So overall there will be fewer but more real life notable fighter passing the wikipedia notability requirements.ShadessKB (talk) 23:57, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

I think would be great to Add Enfusion and ACB-KB title(fought for or won) and tournament Winners

Enfusion really stepped up from being an Local organization mainly focused on Dutch scene fighters to increasing much more high level matchups counting with fighters around the world since 2017.

For example we had the Enfusion 72kg tournament last year that had a lot of notable names as Nordin Ben Moh,Mohamed Khamal,Superbon Banchamek,Jordan Watson and the winner that rise up as a good prospect Endy Semeleer

-their 85kg league also continues on with good names As filip Verlinden,Ulrik Bokeme, Jorge Loren,Mehdi Bouanane and Ibrahim El Boustati(well,kind of...)

-The matchups on last inclueed notable big names as jomthong,Ilias Bulaid,Zakkaria Zouggary,Mohammed Khamal,Tayfun Ozcan,Luis Tavares,Jahfarr Wilnis

-Some of their current champions are worldwide high level(Ilias Bulaid,Tayfun Ozcan, Luis Tavares...).

At 2018 they already started bringing longtime legends Andy Souwer, Albert Kraus and Buakaw,they are planning some good events for this year including andy souwer fighting enriko Kehl in germany.

For ACB-KB, ACB is more known for their MMA organization but the Kickboxing org of them are starting to make waves on worldwide scene.

Similar to Enfusion,they started to really go for it on 2017, with events in France,China,USA and Russia counting with names like Allazov, Alexander Stetsurenko, Eddy Nait Slimani, Yury Bessmertny, Igor Bugaenko, Hicham el Gaoui, Tsotne Rogava, Hao Guanghua, Sitthichai, Askerov, Perviz Abdullayev, Freddy Kemayo, Samy Sana, Darryl Sichtman, Mohammed Diaby,Vladislav TuinoV...

Especially in the last Event that was their best one,counting with 4 title fights where all of them were pretty notable matchups Alexander Stetsurenko vs Jonathan Oliveira, Perviz Abdullayev Islam Baibatyrov, Tsotne Rogava vs Jonatha Diniz and especially Artem levin vs Igor Bugaenko(the two best 85kg guys outside Glory)

Its time to have them as a notable organization also.Mfnuf (talk) 5 May

Is it time that ONE Championship's 'One Super Series' was added to the top tier list of promotions? Given the size and scale of their events, and the level of kickboxers and nak muay competing there now? The featherweight tournament for this year alone featured Petrosyan, Yodsanklai, Kehl, Petchmorrakot, Askerov, Nattawut etc. and in every division there are Lumpinee, Raja, K-1, Kunlun, Enfusion champs for example. And a mass amount of top 10 athletes as per the rankings cited here - Khbabez, Eersel, Holzken, Petrosyan, Sana, Yodsanklai, Wang Wenfeng, Ilias Ennahachi [1] BearMinimum (talk) 09:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Any reliable evidence for this man?

Steve Vick (kickboxer) is a supposed to be a 1994 ISKA world champion does anyone know of any reliable information regarding the man? Dwanyewest (talk) 12:18, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Khonda8 what do you think? Dwanyewest (talk) 23:24, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Vick was indeed ISKA World Kickboxing Freestyle Super Welterweight champion, he won the title in his retirement fight on november 19, 1994. This was shared by the ISKA themselves on their facebook page.Khonda8 (talk) 18:13, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Khonda8 I don't know if that facebook page can be used as a reliable third person source. Dwanyewest (talk) 01:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Request for Comment on SSN at WP:Notability (sports)

There is a discussion on SSN (sport specific guidelines) at RFC on Notability (sports) policy and reliability issues. Feel free to go there and post your comments. Cassiopeia^(talk) 01:02, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Membership request

Hello. How can I become a member of the participants of this Wiki project? Sincerely MMA Kid (talk) 04:11, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello. This is the kickboxing project. On kickboxing? With good edits of course and some time on Wikipedia. And respect between each other. .karellian-24 (talk) 11:14, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

.karellian-24 Thank you MMA Kid (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

If you prove you are worth, you will be very soon mentioned by the list. .karellian-24 (talk) 20:14, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

OK.Yappakoredesho (talk) 12:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Tofan Pirani

Hello. Tofan Pirani’s article has no notable. There seems to be a charge for making this article. The user has published the article in three languages: English, Persian and French. It should be noted that the article was previously deleted from Persian Wikipedia. Already added request for deletion. Please review. Regards MMA Kid (talk) 18:37, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello. I hope I did not make a mistake denying it, but he may have fought for the WKN world title in 2021. [2] and [3]. And I suppose in 2013 he was defending the belt in the same promotion. [4] Regards .karellian-24 (talk) 22:53, 23 July 2021 (UTC)

Dear .karellian-24, As an Iranian martial artist and journalist based in Thailand, I know him exactly. He is not a notable at all as I believe he is only a show fighter. Most of his struggles are arranged to his liking. Since he has a close relationship with WKN, even his title fight was paid for. More than 3 of his recent fights in Lumpinee Boxing Stadium [5], Super Champ Muay Thai [6][7] and MBK Fight Night [8] were canceled by the promoter due to fear of the opponent. The cessation of his struggle in the MAX Muay Thai also cut off television broadcasts for fear of injury. [9] As an athlete he does not deserve to be on Wikipedia. He also left Iran illegally 35 years ago and took refuge in Sweden with his family. He is not a citizen of Iran. Regards MMA Kid (talk) 08:00, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

If he fought for the world WKN title, he passed one of the Wikipedia rules. I don't comment if the rules are fair or not, buddy! Raul Cătinaș is not on the Wikipedia because of their rules, although he could have passed "coverage".

A kickboxing athlete is presumed notable if they've:

1. fought for a world title of a major organization or promotion (K-1, WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, Glory, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA (through 1986), WKA (through 2000).

In my opinion Tofani Pirani would also pass "coverage", he is a known fighter fighting including in K-1. Anyway, it's not me to decide. .karellian-24 (talk) 11:23, 24 July 2021 (UTC)

Membership request

Hello dear users and admins (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11), due to my expertise and background in Wikipedia and for more productivity and collaboration, please check out my WikiProject Martial arts/Kickboxing task force membership. Sincerely MMA Kid (talk) 09:46, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Hey, there's no strict entrance process. Simply add your name to the list and start editing. It's that simple. If you've any questions please don't hesitate to ask. GameRCrom (talk) 11:02, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Yeah. If you do nothing wrong, you will remain a member. .karellian-24 (talk) 13:50, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Dear GameRCrom and .karellian-24 Thank you. MMA Kid (talk) 13:37, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Help to submit

My recent article Draft:Arash Mardani has unfortunately not been approved despite its notability. Please help with submission. Sincerely MMA Kid (talk) 03:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

This goes to the Mixed Martial Arts task force, should be questioned there. In most of the sports it's enough to dispute the national championships final. Regards, KarelRo .karellian-24 (talk) 18:33, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

.karellian-24, Thank you. MMA Kid (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Undo with no reason

I recently published a Pattaya Boxing World article and linked it to Superbon Banchamek's page in the Kickboxing record section. But a user undo it for no reason. Please check it out on the history page. I don't think I made a mistake. Regards. MMA Kid (talk) 14:16, 2 August 2021 (UTC)

Guys

Hi,

We should refresh a little the team on the profiles. Many have left their gyms. This requires documentation. I also notice that no one is interested in studying a little biography of athletes, many being mentioned on sites like Glory or ONE. Could be added here... .karellian-24 (talk) 22:54, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Voting

Hi guys,

I think it's better to add WMC to the WP:Notability (sports). This tournament is very prestigious. Please comment. Regards MMA Kid (talk) 11:00, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

I doubt it passes since not even It's Showtime and Superkombat (the largest two kickboxing promotions in the history of Europe) weren't added after long discussions. The Americans are confusing the governing bodies with those of boxing. .karellian-24 (talk) 12:07, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your participation and information. Regards. MMA Kid (talk) 07:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

Just a notice to this WikiProject that MMA Kid has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:50, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Kickboxing, Muay Thai notability guidelines change proposal

Hello. This discussion took place once in 2018 but I feel like it deserves to be brought back. As it currently stands, the guidelines for WP:KICK has been the exact same as it was in 2014 when it was pasted to Notability (sports), even through the rise of promotions such as Kunlun Fight, Enfusion, Wu Lin Feng, RISE (kickboxing), and of course, ONE Championship. I recently asked in the talk page of Notability (sports) and a kind admin there told me to ask here here first. I would like to propose changes on two fronts, Kickboxing and Muay Thai.

• Kickboxing: As the general policy around GNG pages is to tighten the criteria, I would like to put a priority on adding ONE Championship to the list of promotions/governing bodies in WP:NKICK, and if possible, Kunlun Fight (though 2019), Enfusion, Wu Lin Feng, and RISE, in no particular order. In the spirit of tightening the guidelines, I would like that WAKO-Pro and maybe WKN be removed in favor of the above promotions.
• Muay Thai: For this, I would like a priority on changing "have been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion" to "have competed for a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern Stadium title". As a secondary suggestion, the Channel 7 and Siam Omnoi Stadium titles should be added to the list, as well as the WPMF title. Lastly, this may be more or less controversial but as Muay Thai and kickboxing are distinct sports with distinct rulesets, they should have separate categories.

I would like to formally ask for a change again in the Notability talk page when/if we reach a resolution. Thoughts? Yappakoredesho, Master Sun Tzu, Mfnuf, ShadessKB, KINGFEDORQc, .karellian-24, GameRCrom, Khonda8, Apex9810, Ptkday, Rfkatz2005, Lethweimaster. Thank you for reading and considering the suggestions. PhanKS1505 (talk) 16:48, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi! You forgot to mention the top Romanian promotions, which all must be includeded (including Superkombat which was discussed in the past, way over Enfusion and the 2nd largest in the history of Europe after It's Showtime). So if you don't include SUPERKOMBAT, then we don't include ONE Championship. SUPERKOMBAT had fed GLORY more than any other promotion and it was simply in the same position, not to mention held better TV contracts than ONE (CBS Sports, Fight Network, Eurosport and so on). At least Colosseum Tournament, Dynamite Fighting Show and Superkombat, from Romania must be included. The Romanian kickboxing circuit is No 1 now in Europe, with the highest competition. 7 top promotions, all backed by big media. I am not mentioning regionals. Colosseum Tournament has put the most events in this pandemic in Europe, way over Enfusion. Regarding, the WAKO-Pro and the WKN, they can't be removed since they are global organisations. THAT SAID, I am willing to vote every top promotions from the Netherlands, Japan, China and Thailand (Muay Thai), and ONE Championship, if you agree with Superkombat, Colosseum Tournament and Dynamite Fighting Show being on the list. Let't say yet Golden Fighter Championship and OSS Fighters are not qualified. This season Romania has paid even 50,000 euro purses. We are all leading the world of kickboxing business. .karellian-24 (talk) 17:20, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi .karellian-24, this does not come down to a veto, everyone has a say and we will go with what is most popular among us in WP:KICK. I will support the inclusion of Superkombat as a secondary request alongside Kunlun Fight (through 2019), Enfusion, Wu Lin Feng, and RISE, behind the consensus top 2 world kickboxing giant ONE Championship. I will quote the admin that I have interacted with in Notability (sports): "the general trend here has been to tighten the criteria, not expand them -- whether these titles are "highly coveted" or the "best promotional titles," or that their champions meet the GNG, are utterly irrelevant. What work have you done to demonstrate that 90-95% of the fighters participating in these competitions can meet the GNG?" - Ravenswing . As this comment states, - and despite the lack of knowledge that the admin has to combat sport promotional structures, - we will not all get our way with the promotions that we want to be included. It does not matter that WAKO-Pro and the WKN are "global organizations", as so are WKA, IKF, and the IWUF, all of which are not generally relevant in terms of high level competition. Most WAKO-Pro and WKN champions do not meet the requirements of WP:GNG and some of their champions are retired or not ranked on Combat Press. If we want any chance of getting new promotions/governing bodies included, we have to take a few off the list. In a similar vein, purse size does not matter, if it does, ONE pays multiple of its fighters 50k+ euro purses and have paid out 1 million dollars to Petrosyan, which would make them consensus number 1 over GLORY with this reasoning. If you want to include these other promotions, please prove to the administrators that many of the ranked fighters in those promotions fit within the WP:GNG. Thank you. PhanKS1505 (talk) 20:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello. An update of the notability criteria after more than 8 years is indeed necessary for a fast changing sport. It's Showtime doesn't operate anymore and a number of top fighters are now competing in promotions not listed on WP:NKICK therefore I strongly agree with the addition of both ONE Championship and Kunlun Fight (through 2019) as they gathered champions from other promotions for their tournaments and took part in redefining Pound for Pound talent in the last five years. The removal of WAKO Pro is also a proposition I agree with as their title competitors tend to be their former amateur champions against sometimes relatively low level competition. Independant governing bodies in the professional world such as the ISKA and the WKN are enough. Their champions are either already well established or never break out into the top 10. The inclusion of RISE makes sense to me as the level of competition is rapidly improving to the point of producing top 10 talents such as Tenshin Nasukawa, Masahiko Suzuki or Kento Haraguchi. this is especially true in the lower weight classes which tend to be underrepresented in the other major promotions (Glory, ONE, Kunlun). A similar consideration can be applied to Wu Lin Feng which became the major Chinese organization following the downsizing of both Kunlun Fight and Glory of Heroes.

Regarding Muay Thai the change to fighters having competed for a Rajadamnern or Lumpinee title is also something I agree with. I don't see why the distinction with Kickboxing promotions should be done considering they represent the highest level of the sport. I would also suggest the addition of "Fighter of the Year awards" of Thailand to be added as a notability criteria. For instance Tawanchai P.K. Saenchaimuaythaigym never was either Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion due to the tiles being somewhat linked to politics and not disputed as often as they used to following promotor departures and the covid crisis. Tawanchai won the award which is the ultimate prize in Muay Thai and makes him an elite and extremely notable fighter. Khonda8 (talk) 18:04, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestions, I agree that the Fighter of the Year awards recipients should be added to the criteria, it is the highest honor in the sport and all recipients of the prize are widely documented and written about in foreign and Thai Boxing Press. PhanKS1505 (talk) 20:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Final word and my vote I support:

1. Definitely ONE Championship and SUPERKOMBAT (with re-creation as well). My arguments are that ONE Championship has the best 70 kg division and better smaller weight classes than Glory in kickboxing (although under Glory, but a top competitor), with SUPERKOMBAT signing Cedric Doumbe the Glory's number 1 pound for pound (a promotion which compared to the bodies such as WKN, ISKA and WAKO Pro is huge); promotion of the year in 1 year, top 3 in another 2 years, currently stronger than ever. If there is Bellator, we should also have Glory's competitors, including famous defunct organisation It's Showtime. 2. Consider adding as well the best promotions in Romania (just DFS and Colosseum currently from them), Japan, China and Netherlands (and not only if you decide), because they are better than the all the bodies in terms of putting events, from ISKA to WAKO Pro and WKN. 3. Keep WAKO Pro and WKN because they have helped expanding kickboxing globally and in regions where there isn't big kickboxing. WAKO is probably anyway bigger than the American ISKA. 4. Asia should collaborate with Europe, not to disband. Honesty. 5. Therefore, I request completions, nothing more. Sorry for being so late. Regards, Karel .karellian-24 (talk) 00:10, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I would definitely be for adding ONE, Kunlun (through 2019), Wu Lin Feng (Maybe with the distinction of 2020 and onwards), RISE, the "competed for" addition for Raja/Lumpi and Fighter of the Year awards for Muay Thai. In my opinion current Enfusion or Superkombat etc. don't need to be added. I would remove WAKO, ISKA and WKN. Just the removal of one or two of them is fine with me too though.

Since we are now actually talking through these, K-1 and Glory are obviously being kept. What about WMC and WBC for Muay Thai?Shadess (talk) 18:48, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Draft:Klaus Nonnemacher

Hello, WikiProject,

One of my tasks is going over soon-to-be stale drafts and this one is headed towards deletion in a few days. But when I read it over, it made it seem like he was a big deal in kickboxing. But most of the drafts I read tend to be highly promotional so I don't know if this was true or just BS. But, if you have heard of this "champion", just make an edit to the draft and it won't be deleted. If you read this comment after the draft has been deleted and you are interested in it, just go to WP:REFUND to ask for restoration. Thanks. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:24, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion for new notability guidelines

The discussion from a few months ago, regarding the WP:NKICK, deserves to be continued. As has been said, certain organizations either no longer exist (It's Showtime), or are no longer notable (e.g. WKN or WKA). As such, taking cue from the recent discussion on notability that took place among the members of WP:MMA, I've looked at the most widely acknowledged independant kickboxing rankings (by Combat Press), to see which organizations currently have the most notable kickboxers signed.

Month	Glory	K-1/Krush	RISE	ONE	WLF	Enfusion	Unaffiliated
February 2022	26	25	21	20	15	5	8
January 2022	25	26	20	21	15	5	9
December 2021	26	25	20	20	14	5	10
November 2021	26	25	21	19	14	5	10
October 2021	25	25	22	18	13	4	13
September 2021	25	25	22	18	13	4	13

As can be seen from this, most of the ranked kickboxers belong to Glory, K-1/Krush, RISE, ONE and WLF, while Enfusion holds a small number of ranked kickboxers. I grouped K-1 and Krush under the same umbrella, as they belong to the same organization and fighters fight in both K-1 and Krush events interchangeably. Organizations which are no longer notable (WAKO, WKN, WKA and It's Showtime) should be replaced by those organizations which have the most notable kickboxers contacted (K-1/Krush, ONE, WLF and RISE).

As for muay thai, I believe the notability guidelines are good as they are, i.e. a fighter should be considered notable if he has fought for the Lumpinee, Raja, WMC or WBC title. I would also suggest adding winning Fighter of the year award as well. Almost all of the previous winners have an article on wikipedia already, which shows their notability, while the award is held in high esteem by multiple publications (Fight Record, Siam Fight Mag, Art of Ringcraft, AsianMMA). There are only two winners declared per year, and most are already notable in other ways, as can be seen when going though the list of previous winners.

I'd suggest that the notability guideline is changed as such:

• Prior to March 1, 2022:
  • fought for a world title of a major organization or promotion (K-1, WMC, ISKA, WAKO-Pro, Glory, It's Showtime, WKN, WBC Muaythai, PKA (through 1986), WKA (through 2000)).
  • Have been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source or been a Lumpinee or Rajadamnern champion.

• From March 1, 2022 onward:
  • fought for a world title of a major organization or promotion (ISKA, Glory, K-1/Krush, RISE, ONE or WLF).
  • Have been ranked in the world top 10 by a major, preferably two, independent publication that meets the definition of a reliable source
  • fought for a Lumpinee, Rajadamnern, WMC, WBC Muaythai title, or won the Fighter of the year award.

In short: replace WAKO, WKN and It's Showtime with RISE, ONE and WLF. Add in the FOTY award as the muay thai notability, as it is shown to be as prestigious as winning a title, and doesn't contradict the spirit of tightening up the guidelines. The number of top tier organizations would as such be kept at 10 organizations, and would more accurately reflect what is today considered notable in kickboxing and muay thai.

This would further serve to lower the number of recognized titles as well. As it stands, WKN recognizes 90 champions (18 weight classes across 5 disciplines), WAKO recognizes 48 male (16 across 3 disciplines) and 30 female (10 across 3 disciplines) champions, while It's showtime recognized 8 champions. On the other hand, RISE recognizes 12 total champions, ONE recognizes 12 champions pertinent to our wikiproject, while WLF recognizes 8 kickboxing champions. Changing the guidelines as I suggested would thus lower the total number of "notable" titles from 168 to 32. If we include Krush as well, as I believe we should, the total number of "notable" titles would be at 44.

This is my suggestion, I'd like to hear what the other members of this project have to say as well. Do you Agree, Disagree or do you have any other Comments. @ShadessKB:, @Yappakoredesho:, @KINGFEDORQc:, @.karellian-24:, @Khonda8:, @Apex9810:, @Ptkday:, @Rfkatz2005:, @Lethweimaster:, @PhanKS1505:

Sincerely, GameRCrom (talk) 20:07, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@GameRCrom: I like this idea, it makes sense. You're right, some promotions just aren't relevant anymore. I agree. Rfkatz2005 (talk) 04:18, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

As talked about last year an update to the notability criterias is needed considering the massive change in the kickboxing landscape over the last decade. I agree with everything proposed by @GameRCrom:.

Khonda8 (talk) 16:14, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I initially brought up this action last year as WP:NKICK had not been significantly altered since around 2014 despite the landscape of the sport having changed drastically since then. Unfortunately, I was caught up with real life problems and did not have time to bring our decsion(s) to the administrators at Notability. I agree with all proposals made above by @GameRCrom.

Sincerely, PhanKS1505 (talk) 19:27, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

As I'm the one who proposed these changes, I naturally agree with everything proposed. GameRCrom (talk) 13:14, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd perhaps not include Krush and ISKA, but seeing as nobody else seems opposed to them, I agree with the new notability guidelines. They're much better than the previous ones that are entirely out of date. Shadess (talk) 14:33, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Yevhen Zvonok

He has an article on pl wiki (pl:Jewhenij Zwonok) but not English or Ukrainian. I am not sure if he is notable. Some sources: [10]. He got on silver medal: [11]. If he is notable, it would be good time to stub an entry? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:39, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

So I went ahead and changed the notability for kickboxing.

@ShadessKB, Yappakoredesho, KINGFEDORQc, .karellian-24, Khonda8, Apex9810, Ptkday, Rfkatz2005, Lethweimaster, PhanKS1505, and GameRCrom:

I see no one here had any issue with the proposal by GameRCrom and I saw that the proposal on the general notability talk page for sports didn't have anyone having an issue with anything so I just went ahead and changed it. HeinzMaster (talk) 03:24, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Flagicons

There's a discussion at Talk:Amansio Paraschiv#Flagicons regarding the use of flagicons in professional record tables for kickboxers. – ².O.^Boxing 07:27, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Does Anne Quinlan deserve an article?

Is Anne Quinlan (fighter) worthy of a Wikipedia article although she won a 1984 - WKA Flyweight tile the only source is Anne Quinlan | Muay Thai » Kickboxing | Awakening Fighters Dwanyewest (talk) 13:45, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Barbara Aguiar

Hi, please someone check Draft:Barbara Aguiar. IDK why declined!!! Thanks Photo Eminency (talk) 10:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Please create page

Please create Masoud Minaei page 2.147.201.138 (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

Muay Thai ring names

Looking at Category:Thai male Muay Thai practitioners, the articles for most fighters whose ring names include a Thai consonant initial as part of the gym name are punctuated with a full stop and without a space after, e.g. Kaensak Sor.Ploenjit. However, there are those that have a space and no full stop instead, such as Saen Sor Ploenchit.

I understand that the former style was developed to more closely reflect the Thai name, and to avoid potential confusion by showing that the Sor is part of the gym name, not a middle name. But this doesn't seem to reflect how these names are written by sources outside of Wikipedia. I wonder if it wouldn't be more in-line with the Article Titles policy to standardise on the Saen Sor Ploenchit format. Ideally, the confusion should be pre-empted by giving proper context in the article text; the gym they're based at is a basic piece of information that should be provided anyway. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:01, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Khonda8, you're the person who seems to be most active editing such articles, so I'd like to hear your thoughts. (Apologies to other editors I don't remember; if you know someone who could add to this discussion please let them know.) --Paul_012 (talk) 07:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)