Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Archive 43

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 40

Archive 41

Archive 42

Archive 43

Archive 44

Archive 45

TSR Codex

Author Shannon Appelcline is working on a book (series?) called the TSR Codex that will compile all the articles he has written on the D&DClassics website for all the various D&D publications. :) This is great news because it is pretty iffy for us to use those webpages as sources since it is a commercial website to sell products, but having them published independently in a book means we will be able to use it as a reliable source. :) BOZ (talk) 19:43, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Awesome. Hopefully, that will include post-TSR stuff because a lot of 4E articles utilize Appelcline's research for DriveThruRPG. Sariel Xilo (talk) 20:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

fantastic news. Any idea of the release date? AugusteBlanqui (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Is this it?? https://www.evilhat.com/home/designers-dragons/ AugusteBlanqui (talk) 21:51, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Nope, that's old (but still good) news. This looks like a preview: [1] BOZ (talk) 22:50, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I also wanted to point out that in the past, I had some significant conversations with him about how Wikipedia fictional element articles were being wiped away due to lack of sufficient independent coverage... you might notice that he may have taken that to heart if you look at that sample. ;) BOZ (talk) 15:00, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Sadly she likes to make up or rewrite history, as an employee of WotC, and they currently like to revise history to suit their needs, so many of the things she has said in the past, about the past, have been ficticious, so even if compiled in a book by Shannon, that will be useless material in my opinion, as she is biased on what she beleives versus what is fact. shadzar-talk 11:19, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

I know little to nothing about this author myself, but do we have any indication that she has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy as WP:V requires? Woodroar (talk) 12:37, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Forgotten Realms

Forgotten Realms is now at GAR. BOZ (talk) 22:05, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

If the article does wind up being delisted at this time despite the work we have put into it, be positive - it can always be brought back to GAN when it is ready, and I'm sure it will be an even more solid effort for it. BOZ (talk) 12:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Health (game terminology)

This article, which is related to tabletop role-playing games as well as video games, has just been nominated for Good Article. Should be interesting! If there is anything you can pitch in to improve the article before the review starts, that would be great. :) BOZ (talk) 19:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

50 years of role playing seems significant

Why have all of the Dungeons & Dragons articles been removed? They just redirect to pages that don't have any information.

There used to be a good amount of historical and game based information on these topics, but now they all just say "merged", but were really just deleted.

These topics have had a significant influence on fiction and other media, like video games. They shouldn't just all be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.9.75.139 (talk) 22:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

They were removed because the deletionists have the Very Important Mission of removing as much material from Wikipedia as they can, while adding very little of substance.

The bright side is that most of the material is still there; you just need to click on the redirect and you can find the entire history of the article. 2601:249:8B80:4050:DC2B:6DF7:CF88:4464 (talk) 04:38, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

For a different view of what happened, and what can be done about it, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Where. BOZ (talk) 23:04, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

BOZ, I have read that, but it really is not relevant. These erased articles mostly say WP:GNG and have references, so there isn't really any way to "fix" a problem that doesn't even exist.

Then, they are "merged", which is just a lie. You take an major character from about 100 pieces of fiction, erase the article, and redirect it to something like "demons are a d&d monster". That is NOT merging.

Even if i tried to bring back an article, all of it's links are also removed, and you can just remove it again, without any justification. People who don't like Dungeons & Dragons should not be just arbitrarily destroying all of the hundreds of articles that users created. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.9.75.139 (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Merge input needed

Formal request has been received to merge: Game System License into Open Game License; dated: November 2020. Not sure if this is considered a controversial merge suggestion. Proposer's Rationale: {not stated}. The discussion is here. Thanks! @Sariel Xilo: (talk) 02:26, 21 November 2020 (UTC) (Posted here by GenQuest ^"scribble" 20:54, 8 December 2020 (UTC))

"Minimal (Dungeons & Dragons)" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Minimal (Dungeons & Dragons). The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 January 7#Minimal (Dungeons & Dragons) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Cnilep (talk) 04:57, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Forgotten Realms Wiki link

Hello everyone! There is a discussion going on here if a link to the external Forgotten Realms Wiki should be present in the Forgotten Realms article or not. This was already discussed in the past, but there are too few opions to clearly decide one way or another. So please, if you have any opinion about that, input there would be very welcome! Thanks! Daranios (talk) 16:24, 28 January 2021 (UTC)

Merge input needed

Just proposed merging Weave (Forgotten Realms) into Magic in Dungeons & Dragons#Forgotten Realms. The discussion is here. Thanks for your input! Sariel Xilo (talk) 22:39, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Notification: RfC on a webseries naming style

Just a quick note to encourage more people to join in the RfCs on renaming the articles discussing each Critical Role campaign.

The two proposals can be found here:

Thanks for looking, (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) Little pob (talk) 13:09, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

FAR notice

I have nominated Frank Klepacki for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 00:21, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Link spam (Mimic)

There are 2 IP accounts (Special:Contributions/89.123.252.14 & Special:Contributions/109.96.48.252) adding link spam to a couple of YouTube videos on mimics. These are not official videos (ie. official as in the D&D or D&D Beyond YouTube channels) & both have under 150 views. They've dropped these links on Monster Manual, Dungeons & Dragons, Mimic (Dungeons & Dragons), Monsters in Dungeons & Dragons, the respective article talk pages, and now a bunch of user talk pages. Please revert/remove the links if you see them. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Ugh, thanks for getting that. BOZ (talk) 17:03, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I cannot be sure, but from how these links were also posted at my talk page, I assume that these were actually good faith edits by someone who is unfamiliar with how such things are done here, and who actually thought they were helpful. Daranios (talk) 19:14, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

The person asked at my talk page as well, and I explained that they're just not notable enough to include as they're just another homebrew. oknazevad (talk) 22:32, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Link to discussion about possible move of RPGA

I'll keep discussion at that location, but thought members of this project might have useful input. For the record, no move has yet been requested. BusterD (talk) 21:37, 12 April 2021 (UTC)

Most viewed stub in this Wikiproject

The Legend of Drizzt 20,415 680 Stub--Coin945 (talk) 14:20, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I upgraded this one to Start, as it is clearly not a stub anymore. 2601:243:1C80:6740:52F:C87D:7250:594A (talk) 15:37, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

Help from The Monsters Know What They're Doing

Hello everyone! Can anyone perhaps help me out with information on The Monsters Know What They're Doing by Keith Ammann? Does anyone know if the book is identical with the entries from Ammann's blog (Google books allows me glimpses only)? Specifically, I am wondering about Genies in popular culture. I've used the blog entries for marids and dao there to give the creative origins, and now I am wondering if the book says the same. The book would of course be much more well-thought-of as a secondary source as compared to a blog. Thanks a lot for any input! Daranios (talk) 15:09, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Nice! :) I hope you are able to get those... I really admire the work you have done on what is left of the D&D monster coverage here. BOZ (talk) 20:38, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Can confirm that the printed book has excellent material on Marids (pages 490-492) and Dao (page 492-493). I did a quick comparison and the print book version is slightly improved, copy-edited version of blog post: excellent information etymology and mythology. AugusteBlanqui (talk) 21:21, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Perfect, than I will change the citation from the blogs to the book. Thank you very much for checking, AugusteBlanqui! Daranios (talk) 14:16, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Polyhedrons available at IA

I've found more than one upload of the entire run of Polyhedron magazine at Internet Archive: (1, 2). A stray #141 was uploaded separately. There are a few issue holes. At some point I can plug all the holes but one (one ordinal was never printed). While this is connected sourcing and not useful towards notability for AD&D product, these issues often contain information on early personages, events and non-TSR products. Additionally, there's a massive amount of canon for Forgotten Realms material by Ed Greenwood and tons of RPGA, TSR, Paizo, and WOTC history which might be used to populate notable subjects like Skip Williams, Frank Mentzer, Jean Rabe, Dave Gross, and Erik Mona. BusterD (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you and much appreciated, BusterD! :) For those interested, I also see British mag Adventurer[2], Ares[3], several issues of French mag Backstab ex:[4], several issues of Different Worlds[5], Games International[6], Imagine[7], lots of Shadis[8], and Space Gamer[9][10] and have been working furiously to add sources to all the games reviewed in these! :) BOZ (talk) 03:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The use of video references

To preface, I should be more knowledgeable about this than I am, but just haven't made these mistakes yet. Perhaps there's someone who can guide me.

While visiting Gary Con this weekend I ran into some folks who had Wikipedia articles about them. I took pictures (with their permission) and expect to illustrate a couple of pages where the subject lacks a photo. More than one was dubious about the value of their article on this platform but almost unanimously they said such articles were way out of date. So I started looking for some newer sources. One source I found was a series of interviews by Peter Adkison of various TSR employees on the GenCon youtube channel. These interviews look and sound informational and are produced by the copyright holder. Could such videos be used to source gaming figures when discussing themselves? Could someone help me with example video of Ed Stark who has been with The Elder Scrolls Online for ten years and is a Zone Lead Designer, one of the ten most important creatives on the project. How can I link to the timecode for specific quotes? I'm still just a newb. Are more qualified nerds available to help? BusterD (talk) 16:16, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

It can't be an original thought that our BLP policy, while reactive to protecting the subject from harmful inaccuracies, makes it difficult for the subject of BLPs to see their articles updated appropriately. This happened with Ed Greenwood a bit ago; he was trying to correct misinformation and was reverted in good faith by an editor in good standing. At Gary Con I suggested to these people a workable strategy would be to create a section on the talk page where links and sources could be applied for any editor to use. BusterD (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Per the Greenwood example, people who want to update articles on them (or their products/companies) should follow the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest guidelines. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

You'll get no argument from me; however, Wikipedia doesn't sent a postcard with such instructions to every BLP subject. Finding such behavioral info affirmatively is not nearly as easy for BLP subjects as it is for this of us who've been here a bit. Especially if you're as old as Elminster or myself... BusterD (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I would suggest adding any images you took to Wikimedia Commons so they can be embedded on pages of all Wikimedia projects. While primary sources like interviews can't be used to determine notability, they can still be useful and reliable sources. Check out WP:PRIMARYCARE for examples on how to use primary sources. In terms of citing online videos, I use Template:Cite AV media for YouTube/Twitch videos and podcasts. There are also some social media specific templates (such as Template:Cite tweet & Template:Cite Instagram) which you can use. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips. I'd love to see D&D project editors (including myself) work their way through BLP articles and update current situations as sources are discovered. Fireside with Peter Adkison is a rich well of source material. I would think the frequent presence of Twitch at major cons might be able to provide us with data and possibly some new editors interested in the subject matter (likely project recruits). Gary Con is a target rich environment for members of this project because it's still small enough you can just chat with your gaming idol for a bit. At GC I like to remind attendees that such people are not merely signatures; many of them truly enjoy interacting and talking game with their admirers. At GenCon there's so much foot traffic everything is blur. That's my OR. BusterD (talk) 17:13, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

If you make a list of BLP articles to be improved, I would suggest identifying which need additional sources for notability (ie. the ones at risk of AfD), which need to be updated because they're out of date, and which need to be expanded. Having a list in the project would probably help prioritize various articles. Maybe add it to Wikipedia:WikiProject Dungeons & Dragons/Cleanup, unless there's a better place in the project. Sariel Xilo (talk) 17:26, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this, BusterD! If you can add anything useful to those page that's great, and even better if you find anything for User:BOZ/Draft pages. :) BOZ (talk) 17:21, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Need to get you guys up here next year... I was not in particularly good health so I missed Friday but got to play in a great Keith Polster game on Sunday. Had the enormous pleasure of getting killed by gunfire twice in three hours... BusterD (talk) 17:32, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

I can help with an old but terrific picture of Ken Whitman. He and I used to be in touch. I'll reach out. In addition, I'll start a draft list based on some categories our project monitors. BusterD (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Possible meetup/editathon at GenCon?

Anybody else going? I'm working most days but would love to do something new. BusterD (talk) 02:33, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Gen Con 2020 online

Looking for further comments at Talk:Gen Con#‎Where should Gen Con 2020 be listed?. BOZ (talk) 01:57, 12 August 2022 (UTC)