Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 82

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 75←Archive 80Archive 81Archive 82Archive 83

Closing the RfC above

Perpetuating closed discussion

The above RfC on amending the policy to explicitly allow any statement that ascribes information to the source has unjustifiably been closed by User:Levivich less than 24 hours after start, saying that "No chance that consensus will form to repeal WP:V#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion." But it's not an attempt to "repeal WP:V#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion."!

Most participants so far are the same as in prior discussions. I'm trying to attract more. We should leave this RfC open for at least a week. Sovmeeya (talk) 10:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

any self-published source can be used as a source of information for any statement that ascribe the information to the publisher
We already can and do use self-published sources to verify statements when we feel the inclusion of said statements is justified in context. if a statement did not rely on self-published sources in order to be verified, this change wouldn't make any difference regarding its inclusion. if inclusion of a statement was seen as justified per WP:NPOV and WP:ONUS, this change wouldn't make any difference either. So this change has no function as policy unless it impinges on WP:ONUS. Remsense ‥ 论 11:10, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
The proposed change impacts poorly with WP:DUE@WP:NPOV, which requires viewpoints to be represented in proportion to the prominence in reliable sources. As currently written, WP:V excludes self-published sources from that body of reliable sources, unless those sources meet the conditions in WP:EXPERTSPS or in WP:ABOUTSELF. This is a good thing. We should not need to trawl through the quagmire of self-published sources to determine whether content meets NPOV. Rotary Engine talk 11:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
You don't say? That's what I've been saying all along! OVER AND OVER!! In all discussions!
I've said that over a month ago at Talk:Microsoft Windows#Privacy features addition reverted. ("There are two different and independent questions here")
There are editors that think Wikipedia:Verifiability strictly prohibits this in some cases. (when the ascribed statements involve third-parties, etc.) Hence the RfC, which was prematurely and unjustifiably been closed for an invalid and false reason! It aims to explicitly state this to prevent disputes. Obviously, it does not impinges on WP:ONUS! (as I've clearly written in the RfC: "Inappropriate statements will fail WP:UNDUE. So there is really no reason for a concern.") Reopen it now!. Sovmeeya (talk) 12:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
Nah. Remsense ‥ 论 12:34, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
The people closing this RFC (which has no chance of going your way, see WP:SNOW) are doing you a favor. You've already been blocked for bludgeoning once, it is time to disengage and find another way to contribute to the encyclopedia, not get yourself blocked for edit warring to keep the RFC open. MrOllie (talk) 12:45, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
Note: I blocked Sovmeeya for a week for disruption related to this dispute. They are unlikely to be able to respond here during that time. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 12:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
The RFC should be re-re-closed, and this discussion hatted. The level of IDHT has now just become disruptive. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:22, 8 October 2024 (UTC)
 Done NebY (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Source display

We have achieved a consensus at the List of common misconceptions to split one of our Special:LongPages. Once we decide exactly how to split it, that page will be converted to a very short list (e.g., links to * List of common misconceptions (A–G), or * List of common misconceptions about history, or whatever is decided).

Some editors really appreciate the one-stop-shopping aspect of the long page, but there are so many refs that it's run into the Help:Template limits problem. If there were no refs on the page, of course, we wouldn't see that problem. An editor has very kindly mocked up an option at User:S Marshall/Sandbox/List of common misconceptions demo that would transclude the real lists (e.g., the subject-specific lists) into a single "List of common misconceptions (one page)" that doesn't display the refs. To see the refs, you would click through to the real lists, where you would find identical wording, but this time with the refs shown. To be clear, this display style is meant to be in addition to, rather than instead of, the real lists.

Our question is: Would this be acceptable in the main namespace in terms of the WP:V policy? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:13, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't think it's a problem in general, but in specific instances it could be. If the information is a direct quote, material that has been challenged, material that is likely to be challenged, or, probably the most important one, contentious material about a BLP, then it would appear to conflict with WP:V/WP:BLP. Not including that information, or only including those references in the transclusion could be a solution. But that may become a mess of include and noinclude tags.
I could see the issue of CIRCULAR being brought up, but it's not being verified by another Wikipedia article it is content transcluded from another Wikipedia article. So I don't think that's a concern. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:25, 15 October 2024 (UTC)
I tend to lean towards the “information needs to be cited in every article in which it appears” mode of thinking. If you are transcluding cited information from one article to another, why not also transclude the citations? It doesn’t add extra work. Blueboar (talk) 00:20, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
There are so many of them that all the citations won't display. There are server-side limits to how much template content you can put on a single page. After a certain point, it just stops rendering all subsequent templates, and everything else is an error message. This is one of the two driving forces behind the decision to split the page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:27, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Washington Post & LA Times

Are these two newspapers still usable sources after the recent interference by the billionaire owners showed that a fact-based reporting can possibly be surpressed by them when it may bring trouble to the billionaires and their businesses by one of the 2024 candidates for US-President? This question is brought to you by the series 'Questions at the Dawn of Fascism'. --Jensbest (talk) 12:14, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Any decision by the owner(s) of a newspaper on editorial page policy does not necessarily say anything about the reliability of the newspaper. Editorials, including election endorsements, and opinion pieces, are not generally generally used as reliable sources, anyway. Donald Albury 12:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
That's not the point. The point is that an owner has interfered because he fears reactions by a possibly autoritarian US-President. It is the obvious attempt to appease Trump. Trump often and clearly expressed his desire to harm businesses which he dislikes. Considering this history and that the tone of Trump has become fully fascistic, it is not safe to consider the reporting of these two newspapers based on facts and untouched by their billionaire owners. --Jensbest (talk) 13:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
You are in the wrong place. The right place is WP:RSN. Zerotalk 13:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The editor earned a WP:TBAN about Trump eight years ago, and has now been blocked for violating it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

RFC Notice: Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS?

I know we already talked a ton above about this, but may as well put the notice down here as well in its own section to notify folks who may have tuned out of the previous discussion. See here: RFC: Should grey literature from advocacy groups and other similar orgs always be considered WP:SPS and therefore subject to WP:BLPSPS? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 02:54, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Can somebody close the discussion linked above? This is already the correct venue for such discussion, or perhaps at the policy pump page. BusterD (talk) 16:14, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
@BusterD i think ive seen folks move RFCs to their own page or to other more appropriate venues. cant i just do that?
which venue would you prefer? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:23, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
I just did and moved it to centralized Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature page as is common for larger discussions. Since we already have notices at all possible venues that may be interested in the discussion, no futher action should be needed. Raladic (talk) 16:35, 10 November 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. A page named Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Grey Literature (or something similar) is one of the recommendations in WP:RFC for any RFC that is expected to draw a large number of comments. (Also, we wouldn't normally close an RFC over a location that is perceived as suboptimal by some; we'd normally either just move it, which is what @Raladic did for this one, or post a larger number of notices.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:37, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Telegram id banned

Help me 2404:1C40:D7:BF1E:1:0:EC41:B98B (talk) 12:14, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

I think your lost, this page is for discussing changes to Wikipedia verification policy. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:10, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
Contact Telegram support, not Wikipedia. JacktheBrown (talk) 00:33, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

ONUS a blank check?

We've discussed this in the past and I'm wondering what the current thinking is on ONUS as a reason to remove something without any other reason, even long-standing, multi-years long content that once had a consensus to remain presumably. Is it enough for a few editors to remove something then claim ONUS? What about if an RFC is started? Usually, an RFC means that the status quo remains for the duration, and WP:NOCON means the status quo remains. Does ONUS still have the ability though to just be a blank check to remove anything at all that a few editors don't like? Andre🚐 19:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I've always supported ONUS but I don't believe, or have ever believed, that the wording of ONUS can be used as a reason for removing content. If content is removed for a valid reason and is restored, then ONUS is a reason it shouldn't have been restored until there is consensus for it. It's shouldn't be the reason that the content was removed in the first place. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:55, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Right, but what about a situation where content has a consensus at a past time, or was added and stood for years at a reasonbly well-watched article, then a few editors come along and create a no-consensus situation due to either inactivity of the editors who originally added/supported that or simply attrition/changing perspectives and userbases, and use ONUS as a justification for "nocon -> remove or change" as opposed to "nocon -> status quo"? If you catch my drift. Andre🚐 19:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
I guess my feeling is that if someone is going to claim ONUS as a reason for removing content, they'd better have an underlying explanation ready, and it would probably be best to provide some insight into that reason in the edit summary rather than simply claiming ONUS. I also think unless it's linked, newcomers may very well have no idea what "ONUS" as an edit summary is even referencing. "Better before" isn't much better than "ONUS", but at least it gives a bit more of an inkling as to the reverting editor's mindset.
I'm not readily aware of any situations like the one you've described, though I can't rule out the possibility...however, consensus can change. If editors who came to Consensus A have all gone inactive, and a new number of editors come along six months later with no knowledge of the prior consensus and achieve Consensus B without the prior set of users engaging with them, I'd argue that that's an indication that consensus may indeed have changed. I'm not quite sure I'm addressing the scenario you're describing, though. DonIago (talk) 20:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes, but we're talking about a scenario where there's no consensus whether consensus has changed. Therefore, usually, WP:NOCON means status quo. Andre🚐 20:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Isn't that why dispute resolution processes exist? DonIago (talk) 20:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
I mean, sure. Although that's a very different discussion. I'd say my recent experience with dispute resolution has left me with some ideas for improvement, as a former mediator with the defunct MEDCOM. Which wasn't always the best either. But you still haven't really answered my question. Which is OK, it's OK to answer my question with another question. I will then answer that with another scenario: What if we went through dispute resolution and the outcome was to have an RFC (which is an outcome), and we're getting NOCON again? Equally strong camps, equally strong arguments (as in the WAID style thought experiment) Andre🚐 20:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
There was an RFC on that exact thought experiment, it was never closed as there was no consensus. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Yep. Exactly. Which means further discussion and here we are. Andre🚐 20:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Yes and all this has been said before. "It depends on the specifics" is the best there is. Editors have been blocked for running around quoting ONUS removing content and being disruptive, and of course the same is true on NOCON and stokewalling. Being open to others ideas and viewpoints while working to find a solution is the best you can do. If editors are displaying behavioural issues and being disruptive there are other means to resolve the issue. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
At some point if editors who prefer a difference consensus aren't getting their desired result even after going through an RfC, maybe they need to accept that there simply isn't a consensus for their preferred version, and perhaps try again in six months or such? Anyone who's spent significant time on Wikipedia likely has experience in losing an argument and hopefully trying to be graceful in defeat. DonIago (talk) 20:26, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
I have always thought that being long standing on its own barely counts as a consensus, it's certainly very weak. Consensus shouldn't stand forever, the project will become moribund.
The real issue is that both ways have issues, some editors misuse ONUS to remove content just because they dislike it and at the same time other editors misuse NOCON as a way to stonewall. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree that NOCON is a form of stonewalling if abused, but what about a legitimately stipulated situation where something was added on a well-watched article, had a consensus at one point, and then a NOCON exists today? Does ONUS therefore allow removing anything that can be fought to a NOCON? As opposed to the usual situation as I understand it that a NOCON means status quo, except perhaps in extreme situations such as a BLP UNSOURCED where policy is clearly on one side. I'm talking about an even content dispute NOCON which leads to removal through ONUS. Is that legit? Andre🚐 20:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Maybe? That's the best answer there is. It's not something that can be given a satisfactory answer in a general sense, only in a specific case by case basis. Discuss it, discuss it some more, discuss it at a venue with more with a bigger audience, have a formal discussion, all the normal dispute resolution processes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 20:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
“Consensus can change”… so a prior consensus can be overturned by a newer consensus. If there is currently a consensus to omit or remove material from an article, then that material should be omitted or removed… even if there used to be a consensus to include that material.
Of course, whether consensus has in fact changed (or not) can sometimes be a matter of dispute. If so, use the normal dispute resolution steps (seek 3rd party opinions, file an RFC, etc) to resolve the issue. Blueboar (talk) 20:11, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
and when/if the RFC ends with no consensus being clear to omit or remove the material, does ONUS default to removing it? Or does NOCON default to the status quo? Andre🚐 20:15, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
It's starting to feel as though you're asking for a global remedy to a problem that should be handled locally if and when it arises. DonIago (talk) 20:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not asking for any specific remedy. If the answer remains unclear then it's unclear. Andre🚐 21:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Technically, NOCON doesn't "default" to anything, as it's not a rule. It is a claim that "the common result is" to retain the STATUSQUO. Perhaps we should make that clearer, e.g., When discussions of proposals to add, modify, or remove material in articles end without consensus, the common result – but not a result that is required by any policy, including this one – is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:07, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
That would resolve the conflict by making ONUS supercede NOCON. Not my preference but a valid resolution of the tension. However, I would argue that this is an ambiguity in the current wording. I would read the current wording as defining the "common result" as carrying the force of policy/guideline (like all guidelines, not always observed strictly) and then there are 3 bullet points defining the bounded, but not exhaustive, exceptions to the "common" result. Certainly, while this may not be an accurate interpretation of the policy, it's a common one. Andre🚐 23:20, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Well, I didn't write that sentence originally, so I can't tell you what the original intention was for the wording choice, but based on what I know of the now-blocked editor, he would be very happy to have you interpret it as requiring inclusion, or at least STATUSQUO.
When I write that something is the "common" choice, I never mean that it is "carrying the force of policy/guideline"; I mean what it says, i.e., it is a statement of fact about the frequency of an event. For example, when I wrote the paragraph in MOS:FNNR about which section heading to use for ref lists, it was based on a survey of a random set of articles. It strictly says which section headings are most common, as a point of objective fact, without telling editors that they should prefer the most common. We did expect that editors would use this information to voluntarily choose the most common section heading (and they have), but it is not "a rule" and it is not a matter of "force". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:36, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
My guess is that given how old this part is, it was a case of someone writing something down that was observed before its incantation was transcribed. In keeping with the section in policy wherever it is - I know you know the one - that says that all of the policies and guidelines are merely description of a consensus and not the thing in itself. AFAIK, it's always been the case in RFCs and VFDs/AFDs that nocon meant keep. Whereas the ONUS/BURDEN supporting remove thing seems much more recent. Without having exhumed the remains myself to confirm that. There also might be an alternate older wording of this concept. Maybe in the deletion or RFC policy if not here. Andre🚐 23:43, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
The NOCON expansion to prefer QUO was discussed repeatedly before the addition was made, and the editor knew that there were concerns (from me and others) about it.
The specific sentence in ONUS was added two years later, but the edit summary when he updated the shortcut (originally created in 2008 and pointing to the same section as BURDEN) suggests that this was not intended to be "new" content. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
That version from 2012 is clearer and more decisive than the current language: In discussions of textual additions or editorial alterations, a lack of consensus results in no change in the article. No "common result" there. It may have been watered down later. But I'm sure that nocon meant keep/status quo even in probably 2005. Here's an essay from 2007. Wikipedia:What "no consensus" means Andre🚐 00:10, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
That essay doesn't address article changes, and on the day it was written, the main point appears to have been: Often, people feel that no consensus should mean that the current status quo prevails. That is not, however, always the case. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:48, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree, but, that supports the idea that this was the generally practiced procedure at the time. Andre🚐 00:59, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
Maybe. Or maybe that back then we had problems with oversimplification of rules. Or maybe that back then we had problems with wikilawyers claiming that whatever asserted rule supports my preferred outcome is the One True™ Rule. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:29, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I see. Well, that's not how I remember it. Andre🚐 05:11, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I found you, WAID, in 2016 removing some status quo from an old version of BRD. Andre🚐 01:17, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
I have made many edits to BRD over the years. In general, my earlier ones took BRD away from its original concept, which was less about WP:EPTALK and more about what to do when achieving consensus has already proven difficult. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:27, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
(Hopefully useful links) Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 74 and Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 75 host the 2022 debates about ONUS. Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 77 is the long discussion on BURDEN. ONUS comes up again on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability/Archive 80. All very lengthy discussions, probably helpful to read before reviving the arguments. Schazjmd (talk) 20:35, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
yes, and my name appears in Archive 77 and Archive 80 so I participated. Those archives still don't provide a resolution to the question. Nor does Wikipedia:Requests for comment/When there is no consensus either way Andre🚐 20:43, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The links are for everyone. Other people are participating here and might not have read those discussions. Schazjmd (talk) 20:45, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
That's true. Thanks. Andre🚐 20:48, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

ONUS has many problems including conflicting with other policies and processes, being out of place (what the heck is a ham-handed arbitrary finger on the scale towards exclusion doing in wp:verifiability?). Also the commonly quoted word "ONUS" is not even in the policy. The original intent was to prevent somebody from using meeting wp:verifiability as an argument for or a way to coerce inclusion. We should fix the whole mess and turn it into a big plus by removing it and substituting "WP:Verifiability is a requirement for inclusion, not a reason for inclusion"' which was the original intent of the wording linked by ONUS. That change would also be neutral regarding inclusion/exclusion because it makes slight balancing changes in either direction. Sincerely,North8000 (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

How many times we going to have this discussion ) Selfstudier (talk) 21:47, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Apparently we need to have it since editors still cite ONUS to remove things. I agree with North8000 that this would solve the problem in a fair way. Andre🚐 21:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
We have problems with NOCON, let's remove them both and let the talk page decide through discussion. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Something to consider… if there WAS a consensus to include, but is now at NO CONSENSUS, then the consensus has changed… the pendulum is swinging towards not including. So, my “tie breaker” is to omit… and ask again in a year to see whether the pendulum has continued to shift towards omit… or has swung back towards include. Blueboar (talk) 21:53, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I agree with that, Blueboar. If there is no consensus to remove material, WP:NOCON would retain the status quo. At least, that's how it's normally worked that I've observed Andre🚐 21:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
In principle but that doesn't necessarily apply in all cases and I notice you have studiously avoided being specific. Selfstudier (talk) 22:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
Andrevan… Is there “no consensus” to remove the material, or is there “no consensus” to retain the material? Answer: it depends. Ultimately you have to look at how the RFC question was worded, read the comments people made in reply, and figure that out on a case by case basis. Yet another good example of why RFCs are not simply !votes. Blueboar (talk) 12:45, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
That's one of the problematic conflicts of wp:ONUS with the wp:consensus policy. If there is no consensus to remove or reaffirm some long standing material, wp:consensus says that it stays in and wp:Onus says that it comes out. North8000 (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Again… it depends. If the question asked was “Should Xxx be retained?” and there is no consensus to retain, then I would take that lack of consensus as a sign we should remove. Alternatively, if the question asked was “Should Xxx be removed?” and there is no consensus to remove, then I would take that lack of consensus as an indication that we should retain. Blueboar (talk) 19:17, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Those are the same question, though. Should it be retained or removed - the only differing factor is whether it's there now and is stable and long-standing, or whether it was recently added and its addition is contested. Andre🚐 19:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
It's not only that, there is the question of WP:CONLEVEL to consider. Selfstudier (talk) 19:41, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Yup… which is yet another reason why we can’t have a simple one-size-fits-all “default”. We have to look at the actual discussion. How many editors commented? Did they focus on reasons to include (which failed to gain consensus), or did they focus on reasons to omit (which failed to gain consensus)? How we proceed will depend on all of these nuances. There is no single correct answer. Blueboar (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
I don't see the relevance of CONLEVEL. Whether to include or exclude a given bit of material in a specific article has nothing to do with a small group of editors trying to "override community consensus on a wider scale". CONLEVEL does not refer to small discussions. CONLEVEL is about small groups of editors declaring that "their" articles are exempt from site-wide policies. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
In my post that started this subthread, (That's one of the problematic conflicts of wp:ONUS with the wp:consensus policy. If there is no consensus to remove or reaffirm some long standing material, wp:consensus says that it stays in and wp:Onus says that it comes out.) I was intending to imply that both questions (remove and keep) got asked and neither attained a consensus. Then ONUS dictates the opposite of wp:nocon. North8000 (talk) 21:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Four years ago, you and I talked about moving ONUS to NOCON, so the contradiction could be side-by-side in the same page.
Recently, there's been talk about moving NOCON out of CON. That seems to have stalled, and not just because a couple of editors were worried about my suggestion that it be moved to a page that is more relevant but doesn't currently say "policy" at the top. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been many months since I did this but I went back and analyzed the roots. IMO there was a tacit local agreement with the inclusion (including an edit summary the gist of which is what I said above....to prevent using using verifiably as a way to coerce inclusion) but no big discussion. And certainly NO agreement with the way that it is being used today as I described above. IMO it's a change that would fix many problems and conflicts, aligns with the intent of why it was included in the first place, does not go against any previous large discussion decision, and would be pretty neutral in the inclusion/exclusion equation. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 23:21, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

While I lean toward North8000, what I'm gathering so far from the discussion is that there still isn't a consensus and it depends. Which is fine. That's how things were last time I checked in. NOCON/PRESERVE is a policy and so is BURDEN/ONUS. However, I do think that last time we discussed it, I think it was ActivelyDisinterested who proposed adding something saying that ONUS can't stand alone as a rationale or when paired with other otherwise invalid rationales, it doesn't add anything. Or clarifying that ONUS specifically doesn't mean that you can remove some long-standing content, claim ONUS if there isn't immediately produced a new consensus to retain it, and have policy justifying that this content has now lost its consensus even if it's been previously considered to have one. I don't think it's theoretical that this is or can be disruptive. ONUS was never intended to be a blank check, that much is clear from the discussion. If we're not going to resolve the conflict with NOCON, at the very least, could we consider an option to limit the scope of potential misuse of ONUS? I just don't think it's a good idea or accurate to the intent of ONUS to allow a situation where long-standing content, with no consensus to change, can be removed by default. This effectively means that 2 editors can have policy endorse removing material that previously, let's say 10 editors supported including, if only 2 of those editors show up for the re-discussion at such time as it is called. Maybe they show up but not until 60 days later, too late. Now you need a new consensus to include that content. I don't see that as a good thing for the integrity of the material on Wikipedia. Andre🚐 20:54, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Huh… I thought one of the selling points of Wikipedia was that its material is dynamic… stuff gets added, stuff gets changed, stuff gets removed. Blueboar (talk) 21:06, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Dynamic, yes, but there's a point where it's not a net benefit to keep changing something, particularly a stable and controversial high-quality article. Surely you can come up with an example of this? There's a real example that caused me to come here, but I think better to keep it more abstract for a variety of reasons. There's a problem of defending article quality. I wrote that essay in 2005 and the original title was defending the status quo. I think now that the original title was more along the lines of the point needed. There are other solutions to the problem or maybe you don't agree it's a problem, but I think we're oversimplifying things if you think that Wiki just hums along with people adding or removing stuff, especially in controversial areas, and that every time some long-standing content is challenged that it's a legitimate and helpful challenge. Andre🚐 21:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
I'm not so much worried about the 2 editors now but 10 editors give years ago stuff, things change and even if 2 editors removed it 2 can add it back 6 months later. Content changes and I fear the idea it must stand because a group of editors said so at some point in the past just tends towards stonewalling. Content can be removed for many reasons, even just to improve the article. Bloated articles are not better by default.
I don't think ONUS, or VNOT if editors dislike the word, should be used as a initial reason to remove content, as I've said, but my ideas to reformulate the statement didn't get much of any support and I'm in no hurry to try and revive it. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
  • My impression for previous discussions is that the dispute between WP:ONUS and WP:NOCON mostly amounts to editors disagreeing about when text gains a degree of implicit consensus by being longstanding and having people edit it. This is a complex question that we've avoided nailing down (for good reasons; having it too rigid would lead to people arguing over it rather than focusing on actual content.) But as a general rule-of-thumb I feel policy could be a bit more clear on the main points - content that has been seen by many eyes eventually gains a degree of consensus, since each of those people is presumed to have approved of it to some degree, and after that at least some consensus is needed to remove it. While people often use time as a rough handwave (often approximately three months of stability), and the "status quo" or "longstanding" are sometimes used to refer to it, it's really about the eyes; something on an obscure article that few people see might never accrue that sort of consensus, while higher-traffic articles can get it more quickly if it's clear a diverse group of people are editing it and seeing it. And any sort of indication that it's controversial (any objections on talk, say) prevent it from happening. --Aquillion (talk) 14:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is no longer consensus to include something, it can be removed. Also a "finger on the scale towards exclusion" is the right way to have it. Almost all content policy is about restricting what can be put into articles and hardly any of it is about restricting what can be taken out. There's no reason for this example to be different. Zerotalk 03:10, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

That's not how policy or practice works; if we have an RFC over whether to remove an established section of an article (one that previously had consensus of some form), and it reaches "no consensus", the result will be that it is retained. I disagree with your proposal to add a finger on the scale towards exclusion, too; current policy places a priority on stability instead. Adding a finger on the scale towards exclusion encourages WP:STONEWALLing and discourages people from engaging. Generally speaking I don't think that proposals for these sorts of "strong" policies with default outcomes that could drastically change articles are ever workable - heavy-handed policies seem good in people's heads when they picture it giving the "right" answer, but in practice they reduce incentives to engage and compromise, encouraging people to use policy as a bludgeon instead. It's better to have a grey area with. (As an aside, this is, to me, the most frustrating part of discussions about ONUS - people who want to push for an expansive interpretation of it, which would allow for the removal of longstanding text without a consensus to do so, frequently make baffling assertions that this is already how things work, which anyone who edits Wikipedia in controversial areas knows is not the case. Outside of a few situations, like WP:BLP, no-consensus outcomes result in the status quo being retained, not in removal; the standard for disputes is WP:BRD, putting the article back in the status quo until a consensus is reached, not Bold-Revert-Remove.) --Aquillion (talk) 14:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
I agree with this and your previous post. WP:ONUS is a finger on the scale towards exclusion and I opined that such a ham-handed arbitrary thing is a bad idea. Zero0000 opined that it is a good idea. So it wasn't a proposal to add something. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Agree with North and Aquillion in my humble opinion. While it may not gain consensus to be changed, I encourage a constructive proposal to change text on these lines to make it clearer. Andre🚐 19:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
There are differing levels of consensus though. If something has an RFC support for, then maybe it makes sense to maintain inclusion until there is a consensus against. But if something just has an implied consensus through dint of being in the article over time, then once that implied consensus is gone by having been challenged then it should not be retained absent a consensus for it. By making it so default to status quo you are empowering filibustering to retain challenged material that never had any real firm consensus to begin with. Something that say 4 users discussed but is now challenged by 20 shouldn't be retained either. The circumstances matter, and filibustering shouldn't be rewarded. When there was a larger discussion among 20 users, then yes I agree that this consensus holds until a new one forms, but the other way around? Not so much. nableezy - 19:27, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Well...
If I write an article and include some bit of content, and it 'sticks', then that's evidence of a presumption of consensus.
If we have a discussion that does not prove that presumed consensus to actually exist, should we keep assuming that there is a consensus? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
At best, that's silent consensus, conlevel 0, WP:SILENT. Selfstudier (talk) 21:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
Do you mean the pre-discussion situation is a silent consensus? Once a discussion has happened, I wouldn't say that we're still silent. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Hard to say without an understanding of the "discussion" (conlevel again). Selfstudier (talk) 10:53, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
@Selfstudier, you surprise me. Do you mean that if I add a sentence to an article, and nobody edits that section of the article for the next year, nobody posts anything on the talk page, and nobody mentions it or refers to my edit in any way, then it's difficult to for you tell if that's "silent"?
Or that if someone does react to it, e.g., by posting a message on the talk page, then it's difficult for you to tell whether "saying something" is "silent"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:45, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
First case, that's silent, the second, which was what I was referring to, hard to say with knowing what it is that was said. You want to be general, I want to be specific. Can't have that so we are left with the unknowable. Selfstudier (talk) 23:16, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Okay, I think that the word silence means the opposite of someone communicating with you, especially in the context of Wikipedia:Silence and consensus, which says "Consensus can be presumed until disagreement becomes evident. That is typically through reverting, editing, or stating disagreement on a relevant talk page." In that model, "if someone does react to it, e.g., by posting a message on the talk page", then it's not silence. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:43, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with what is said there in general but I think silence means have not specifically said whether something is agreed. If the edit was originally made, say on a page with low traffic, it might well sit there for a while but I don't think that means it necessarily has consensus, even if someone had commented about it but not said something yea or nay. Selfstudier (talk) 00:21, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Even on high traffic pages, an edit might stay under the radar for quite a while, can't assume it has consensus just because no one said anything. In practice it has, because it sticks in the article until someone actively does something to unstick it. Anyway, I find all these discussions to be the same, we end up going around in circles because the issues are all connected, I don't think there is supposed to be one correct answer to any problem and the PAG reflect that, perhaps not in the most efficient or clear way, but they do all the same. Selfstudier (talk) 00:26, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree with you that things can be overlooked, but you said above that if someone actually, directly has a discussion about this – a discussion that results in no consensus, which can only happen in there are editors saying that they support and other editors saying that they oppose – then that whole discussion could still be "silence". That does not sound reasonable to me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:54, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I don't think I said that. Where? Selfstudier (talk) 10:47, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I asked if it's difficult for you to tell whether "saying something" is "silent"?. You replied that it's hard to say whether "saying something" about an edit is "silent".
And all of this in the context of a scenario in which:
  • There is a discussion
  • involving more than one person
  • that ends up with a no-consensus result.
I cannot imagine a scenario in which a discussion(!) that ends in "no consensus"(!) constitutes silence. If nobody said anything, how would there be a discussion? If nobody said anything about supporting or opposing the change, how could the discussion end in no consensus? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:11, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Depends on the discussion (that's what I actually said). Selfstudier (talk) 17:16, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Please explain to me how you can have a discussion, about the desirability of an edit, that results in no consensus, and still not have anybody talking about the desirability of that edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:28, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
You are assuming that the discussion (of an edit) is about the desirability of that edit. I said it is not possible to generalize, specifics can be discussed but that's no use for PAG, right? Selfstudier (talk) 17:31, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
Can you give me an example of a discussion that
  1. is about a particular edit, and
  2. ends in "no consensus" for or against that edit, but
  3. is somehow not about the desirability of that edit?
WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:15, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
2. is ur condition, not mine. Selfstudier (talk) 23:06, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
I agree: "2" is the condition I have been asking you about, and whose answer you have been steadily evading.
@Aquillion said "if we have an RFC over whether to remove an established section of an article (one that previously had consensus of some form), and it reaches "no consensus"..." I said "If we have a discussion that does not prove that presumed consensus to actually exist..."
And you basically said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, as if a whole RFC on whether to remove an edit could actually represent silence on the question of whether there is consensus for having that edit. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, it seems best to conceptualize WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS only in terms of identifiable individual editors signalling identifiable (if implicit) assents. If an obscure article remains in a given state for seven years and only one editor has ever contributed to it, there's no evidence that another editor is aware of its contents, never mind that they've consented to them. The same would generally hold regarding editors that previously engaged with an article but are no longer active—their consensus can no longer change, so it can't really be considered. Remsense ‥ 论 21:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
The above are discussions about the complexities of wp:consensus. This overall discussion is about what has operatively become arbitrary interference/conflict with the wp:consensus process....wp:onus. Which has jumped the track from it's original intent of keeping meeting wp:verifiability from being used to coerce inclusion. Again suggest fixing the whole mess and going back to the original intent by substituting onus with "wp:verifiability is a requirement for inclusion not a reason for inclusion". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 02:23, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Apologies for getting sidetracked. If I've read the room correctly: would it be fair to characterize WP:ONUS as a blunt tool to initiate the consensus-making process, rather than as a blunt tool to circumvent it? While I don't think you're wrong in observing it can function as a finger on the scale towards exclusion, I think in most cases it is better described as tending towards stability, because in a majority of applicable situations stability and exclusion happen to be the same outcome. I don't really think it is a natural policy point to apply if one is trying to remove material, unless I'm missing soemthing? Remsense ‥ 论 03:51, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Not in my experience. ONUS can be cited when a few editors want to remove something, or prevent the addition of something. Verifiability doesn't guarantee inclusion, so this should be removed unless there is a consensus to retain it. Andre🚐 03:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Someone yank me back off-stage if I'm veering off-topic again, but I do think this is directly relevant? It's tough, because I will diverge with opinions stated above (and likely majority opinion in the community, which is fine) in that I don't think presence should be privileged over absence when it comes to discussions on the fringes or outside of WP:V and WP:NPOV. Very often, if we want to entertain cohesion or parsimony as valid editorial goals, we have to fall back on a hamfisted-if-not-false argument that a given content presentation (or any given aspect that doesn't boil down to the claims made by prose) "doesn't reflect sources". WP:PRESERVE says what it says, but it remains indefensible to me that additions should categorically require lower editorial scrutiny than removals do: it is equally important to the quality of articles to discern what they shouldn't say or present, compared to what they should. Remsense ‥ 论 04:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
I think I agree with the general sentiment. What I think shouldn't be a permissible practice is to remove something that is long-standing or had consensus in the past citing ONUS. If that BOLD removal is reverted, it should remain unless there is consensus to remove it, not just no consensus to keep it. The BURDEN should be on the BOLD change, not on keeping the status quo. Andre🚐 04:18, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
Depends (again). ONUS should not be an initial reason for removal and then it depends on the "discussion" (and editing) that follows. Selfstudier (talk) 10:56, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

A lot depends on the circumstances of a removal. If I remove something with the explanation "this does not appear in the source", then it should stay out until someone shows that it is in the source or provides another source. Nobody should be saying "it stays in until you get consensus to remove it". Conversely, people who remove sourced relevant content without adequate explanation shouldn't cry "ONUS" if it is reinserted. In general, removals that are accompanied by cogent policy-based reasoning should be treated differently from removals that aren't. Zerotalk 10:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with that. Andre🚐 23:03, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the "finger on the scale" issue, I stand by my comment. Articles are our face to millions of readers and we should revere them as precious places that contain only our best work. Treating stuff in an article as equal to stuff not in an article is fundamentally opposed to that principle. In my opinion, a policy that makes removals as difficult as insertions can only lead to deterioration of quality. Zerotalk 10:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't think I share the same values.
Firstly, I don't think readers want us to revere articles as precious objects; I think they want us to get some information to them. In the case of a recent event, I definitely think that they prioritize quantity over quality. If treating the article like a precious thing means that people don't get the information they want and need, then we're failing them.
Secondly, the Wikipedia:Editing policy says that Wikipedia is, in principle, best off when it contains more information instead of less. We are also supposed to Wikipedia:Be bold, which sometimes looks closer to Move fast and break things than like perfectionism. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:00, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
I'm an agile guy, which tries to get at a process that is fundamentally move fast don't break things, and I tend to think that articles, like software, should be shipped warts and all if having an article is the alternative to not having one, so I tend to agree with WAID that perfectionism can be harmful in the goal of continuously shipping articles. I don't think articles are precious any more than chickens are precious. Sure, in some sense, all life is precious, and there's a preciousness to your pet chicken, especially your prize chicken that has special longevity or traits. On the other hand, there are likely at least 20,000 less impressive but more accessible dead chickens within a 15 mile radius from you. But, I do agree with Zero0000 that we should have a set of quality heuristics to ensure that successive changes are improving quality. So let's try to get as many articles being organic free range chickens as we practically can while recognizing that some are going to be factory farmed, might have salmonella chickens. We want to limit salmonella, while providing healthy enough non-organic chickens to people who are hungry. The food shouldn't make them sick (have false information or other obvious, 5-alarm fire, showstopping problems) but it may not always be a heritage farm free range chicken with the top organic certifications. So in my mind shipping a stub or a rough article is fine, because as WAID says everything has mistakes and we shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. ONUS being a fairly blunt instrument in its present formulation, I wonder if there's a version of ONUS/BURDEN that looks something like the last few comments, i.e., changes to text that is verifiable, neutral, and encyclopedic that is long-standing with no affirmative consensus to remove need some rationale, while new bold changes that are reverted should be discussed and need a consensus to add if challenged. Because I do think ONUS is useful if it's keeping out bad new additions and giving some proportional weight to older and less controversial stuff. Andre🚐 23:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
If you're Agile, then Zero seems to be proposing Waterfall. But more importantly, he seems to prioritize "remove existing stuff" over "add missing stuff". Your precious chickens can get sick because they have too much salmonella, but they can also get sick because they have too few nutrients in their diet. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:50, 1 November 2024 (UTC)
You wrote "Wikipedia is, in principle, best off when it contains more information instead of less". As a dedicated inclusionist, I agree with that sentiment. However, "more information" does not mean "more information of any sort". The right interpretation of the principle is "the more good stuff, the better". We should add stuff to articles if it improves them, and the way we decide whether stuff will improve an article is by consensus. That's what ONUS means to me. If something already in an article loses consensus that it improves an article, then its inclusion becomes subject to recall (to choose a trendy word) and consensus has to be reacquired. That is not balanced between inclusion and exclusion, and I approve of that. Basically, something good missing from an article is undesirable, but it's a smaller sin than having something bad included in an article. Zerotalk 03:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
WP:Consensus should be our guide. WP:Onus was originally intended to prevent interference with that (to prevent people using merely meeting wp:verifiability to coerce inclusion) but has turned out to be instead an arbitrary interference (and conflict with) with wp:consensus. Let's fix both problems by substituting "Verfiability is a requirement for inclusion, not a reason for inclusion". Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 15:14, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
You proposed this before, I think, what happened? Selfstudier (talk) 17:43, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
  • I don't think ONUS should be cited as the reason for removing something, but if there is a reasonable claim that the content violates our other content policies or guidelines, then it seems like that's a case where ONUS would apply? That isn't too different from WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in terms of where and when I see it applying. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:18, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
    So... first of all, LOCALCONSENSUS is not about "a couple of editors made a decision on the talk page", even if I think those editors made the wrong choice. It's about "a couple of us decided that 'our' article is exempt from some generally applicable policy or guideline". Imagine, e.g., some editors saying that the Suicide article should be completely replaced with a big disclaimer. That violates our ordinary policies and guidelines, especially Wikipedia:No disclaimers, and no matter how strongly they feel about it, it's a LOCALCON and doesn't count (unless, you know, the rest of the community agrees with them and decides to change the rules).
    Or don't imagine a hypothetical scenario, if you prefer, because we have real ones: the reason we have LOCALCON in its current form is because WP:WikiProject Composers declared that 'their' articles are exempt from MOS:INFOBOXUSE. It took a couple of years of disputes and a painful RFC to convince them to change their tune (slightly: they went from "we officially ban infoboxes from all our articles" to "we strongly recommend against infoboxes, though technically we can't ban them").
    Secondly, I think ONUS gets invoked more often in disputes in which most editors agree that the addition is a bad one, but its lone proponent disagrees. After several rounds of "Yes, we know that you want to say that you disproved Einstein's theory of relativity, but it's not okay to put this in the article because it violates all the core content policies", followed by "But I did disprove Einstein, and it's compliant with every single policy in the world!", then editors tend to shrug and say: "The ONUS is on you to get consensus before you can re-add it. Good luck with that." WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

The sentence "The onus is on those seeking to include disputed content, to achieve consensus for its inclusion." was added to the "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" section by JzG in August 2014 with no dispute at the time (this is Archive 62 time). I don't find any argument about it until 2020 (Archive 70) but I could have easily missed it. I don't agree that it conflicts with the core message of WP:Consensus, since the latter says "An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted." If we accept that things in articles should have consensus to be there, it follows that disputed material without consensus should not be there. It could be that this principle belongs in a different section, or even in a different policy, but I strongly believe that it belongs somewhere. It is not contradicted by PRESERVE ("fixing something is better than removing it") since that envisages keeping something different from what is disputed. Zerotalk 07:26, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

A consensus is basically a supermajority (yes, I know it's not a vote so lets say of arguments). Wp:Consensus covers the bases pretty well for the various scenarios. Why have arbitrary interference saying that a supermajority is needed for retention, even of long standing material? As you noted, this was added under "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion" which I think is a strong indicator of why it was put in and allowed to stay....to prevent meeting wp:verifiability from being used to coerce inclusion. Simcerely, North8000 (talk) 14:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Similar disagreement at Talk:Pacific Repertory Theatre

I was going to start a new discussion, but this was right in my face, so I decided I am going to add onto it rather than have two threads going here. Basically, editors are not on the same page on the interpretation of ONUS. Please have a look and comment there or discuss here. Graywalls (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Archive_82&oldid=1264977560"