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Rephrase WP:BLANKING?

The "Removal of comments, notices, and warnings" section on this page (WP:BLANKING) currently says that "Policy does not prohibit users ... from removing comments from their own talk pages, although archiving is preferred. The removal of material from a user page is normally taken to mean that the user has read and is aware of its contents." I'd like to propose that this be reworded to make it clear that the normal and customary practice is to keep comments up on one's user talk page for at least a few days before deleting them — and that although policy doesn't demand this and does allow prompt removal of material, an editor who consistently deletes comments immediately from their talk page runs a risk of being misperceived as not wanting to communicate.

As the guideline currently stands, some new editors could easily get the idea that it's perfectly OK to blank one's talk page immediately after reading any comment left there by someone else, and that anyone who suggests this isn't really a good idea is out of line (because, after all, WP:BLANKING says it's OK to do it). I'm thinking of at least one relative newcomer who blanks his talk page all the time, and this habit definitely has not helped his case when others have found reason to question what they see as a confrontational, warring style in the way he edits articles. I really think it would be a good idea to rephrase the existing guideline to make it clearer that although immediate blanking of material from one's talk page, without any other acknowledgment, is permitted, it is not encouraged as the default communication style. Comments? — Richwales 17:22, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that some indication should be given that repeatedly blanking your talk page is a good sign of a bad editor: someone who does not understand the basics of collaboration and who is probably not a good fit for Wikipedia. Not sure how to word it, but a guideline should give helpful guidance. Johnuniq (talk) 01:27, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I reticent to endorse fuzzy guidelines because, in my experience, editors frequently use them to hammer other editors rather than to accept them as guidance on how to conduct their own affairs. Please also see Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Hentzer Nobody Ent 02:56, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm going to respectfully disagree with most of the commenters on the above RFC. An editor who does controversial work, without ever using edit summaries, and who persistently refuses to acknowledge or respond to legitimate inquiries on his talk page or on article talk pages, can normally be seen as acting antisocially, and sanctions may certainly be appropriate. There is a difference between this sort of "refusing to communicate at all" behaviour and the occasional deletion of an item from one's own talk page. (I do note that Hentzer was indef-blocked, BTW, though it was for repeated copyvios, not refusal to communicate.) — Richwales 18:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what RfC you are referring to Rich, but I'm going to agree with you again about failure to communicate. Wikipedia is a cooperative work, and discussion among editors is vital and not optional. An editor who never responds to other editors can be blocked after warnings and lack of response, although it needs to be made clear that they will be unblocked if they enter into discussion. And I agree with Johnuniq that some sort of helpful guidance needs to be given to make it clear that repeated blanking without response (even if they are entering into discussion at times on their talk page or elsewhere) is not a good idea. Dougweller (talk) 09:09, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
I was referring to Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Hentzer, cited by Nobody Ent. I would also draw people's attention to GeorgianJorjadze, who (as you can see on his talk page) was recently blocked for three months for repeated edit warring, refusal to discuss changes or disputes with other editors, and an ongoing pattern of blanking his talk page rather than engage in discussions with others. — Richwales 14:43, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment - Advertising on user pages

Having To Edit Pages

I don't like having to edit pages because it just proves that some people don't know what there talking about.Such as some people could say that Elvis was gay, but he wasn't so I would have to edit the page and who knows if its even true? Is this site reliable? You tell me.--Alsomealli98 (talk) 21:33, 4 June 2012 (UTC)A.S.

This isn't really the place for this discussion, you'd be better off asking at the reference desk or help desk. Hut 8.5 21:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi there, I was on Alex O'Loughlin's wikipedia page and found stating that the age of 18 Alex has a son name Louis. I needed someone to get the facts straight because Alex only mention he has one son name Saxon only. Alex has never mention he has a son name Louis at all. I do know anyone can edit on anybodys wikipedia and it doesn't me it is true so can someone please figure this out. I would appricate it. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eightbynine (talkcontribs) 18:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

This isn't really the place for this discussion, you'd be better off asking at the page for issues about living people or just be bold and remove unsourced claims yourself. I will check into this one.-- The Red Pen of Doom 19:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

User page redirects to article space

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Consensus is clearly against this proposal at this time. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Meanwhile, as the war rages over my sock puppet's userpage, I figure this is a lovely opportunity to suggest the inclusion of the sentence "User pages may be redirected into article space", but knowing how people love to discuss improvements rather than allow improvements, I'll open a discussion here. I'm doing this while the war rages because I'm not a fan of secret knowledge that fuels suspicion of admin cliques, so those who shout 'CREEP' can automatically have their foot in their mouth without my assistance.


My prediction over the issue indicates that it's worth a RFC to assist clearing up the confusion, the decision I already know, so the RFC is more about CREEP vs add, less about allowed/not allowed. Penyulap 19:41, 9 Jul 2012 (UTC)

  • Without looking into the issues that led up to this, I'd say oppose. Redirecting a user page to an article has a lot of potential to cause problems; if someone wants to leave a message for a user, chances are they'll click on the username in the signature and go to the corresponding talk page. Given that there's no obvious reason I can see where redirecting to an article would be an advantage, and that there's a potential disadvantage (in that people could leave messages intended for the user on an article talk page, confusing the hell out of anyone happening to read that talk page), I can't see any good reason for this. Mogism (talk) 19:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now. I haven't seen any example posted which would benefit from this change. I do, however, see potential drawbacks, including confusion and misrepresentation. We could also have a bit of a BLP issue if we're redirecting obnoxious or offensive usernames to a BLP who is not associated with the account or its activity. In fact, short of someone providing a reason why we should allow this, I'd support adding "User pages" to the existing prohibition in the article, to say "User pages and user talk pages should not redirect to anything other than the talk page of an account controlled by the same user."   — Jess· Δ 20:04, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Jess and Mogism. I do not see any benefit and lots of potential downside. User space and article space should be seperate. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Strong Oppose. In addition to the potential for BLP violation noted by Jess, above, I oppose this change for the following reasons:
  • It does not help build the encyclopedia (see WP:5P #1) - how does a redirect from a Userpage to some Article do that?
  • It does not help Wikipedians communicate with each other (see WP:5P #4). Rather, at best it would be confusing to click on a link to a User, expecting a Userpage, and instead end up at an article. At worst, depending upon the Username in question and the linked Article, the result could be disrespectful and uncivil.
  • It has the potential for being reckless (see WP:5P #5) and disruptive.

I, too, support adding "User pages" to the existing prohibition in the article JoeSperrazza (talk) 20:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose per Jess, JoeSperrazza et al. This is potentially confusing and I can't think of a way in which such a redirect could be a net benefit. I support Jess's suggestion that we add user pages to the existing prohibition. Kahastok talk 20:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Can't think of a reason why there would ever be a need to redirect a user page to an article. If the "owner" of the userpage is the subject of the article, they can provide a wikilink to the article if they want people to see it. If the owner of the userpage is not the subject of the article, what are they doing redirecting to an article? User pages are supposed to provide information about the editor. I would support adding wording to the policy explictly prohibiting redirecting from userpages to article space.

    I would also add: Penyulap, if you knew what people were going to say, and therefore had strong reason to suspect your action would be problematic...why did you take it? Were you just making a WP:POINT? You seem to be spending a lot of time lately making those, and it would be wonderful if you would consider your points made and go back to regular editing. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 20:34, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

    last edited 21:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose No benefit, obvious potential drawbacks. However, I note it should be allowed to redirect a userpage to another userpage controlled by the same person, not just to a user talk page controlled by the same person. Anomie 20:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
i would support allowing redirect from an alternate account to the main account user talk page, but not the other way or to a different alternate account. -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose - never appropriate under any circumstances I can imagine. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose on BLP cases unless it has been clearly established the editor is the same as the one that's the subject of the article they're trying to redirect to. Someone above mentioned offensive words, but even redirecting an editor's who's name A to the article on a different person A is bad because it may lead people to think editor A is the same as person A the subject of the article. In non BLP cases like the OPs, I would weak oppose based on the potential for confusion and the lack of any good reason (as well as more serious problems which we could deal with in other ways and are already forbidden on user pages but a complete ban on such user page to mainspace redirects could handle just as well). Nil Einne (talk) 21:04, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment - I don't think this needs to be codified one way or the other. If such redirects are being used in an abusive manner, there surely aren't so many that they can't be dealt with on a case-by-case basis using common sense. The example at User:ThomasMoore1852 is harmless, yet it has been deleted and is currently being edit-warred over, all without any apparent basis in policy. I'd be willing to bet that most other such redirects are equally harmless and not worth the dramaz. --Bongwarrior (talk) 21:14, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Agree that the edit war does not help build WP. A policy update (explicitly allowing or disallowing redirects of User pages to Articles) should prevent future uncertainty and issues. JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Confused I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I don't see where this isn't allowed in current policy. Rather than simply assume it is prohibited, I've been reading and don't see the prohibition. The user page policy has always been pretty lenient about usage as long as content isn't specifically prohibited, illegal or designed solely to offend, which doesn't apply here. The policy goes out of its way to ONLY discuss redirects on talk pages, leaving user page at the discretion of the page holder. We might sit here and argue what the policy SHOULD be, but that is all theory. Can someone be kind enough to point me at the section in the current policy that says that redirecting a user's main page to main space is prohibited? Otherwise, I have to assume the discussion is moot as it is already allowed. Dennis Brown - © 21:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Some of us (myself and Jess, for example) are suggesting that the policy should be updated to include a prohibition of redirects of the User page to article space, e.g., per Jess, "User pages and user talk pages should not redirect to anything other than the talk page of an account controlled by the same user." Depending upon the results of this RFC, I'd like to update the Policy accordingly. JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) I think you're looking at things backwards, Dennis. The discussion has gone roughly: <Penyulap>: "Hey, policy doesn't say I can't do this thing, so I'll do it!" <various people> "You can't do that! We're going to undo you!" <Penyulap>: "Ok, how about we discuss this as an RfC. I propose adding wording to policy that explicitly says that I can do this thing." <other people> "We oppose adding wording saying you can do this thing!"

    So I guess what we ought to be addressing but so far aren't is the issue of "Ok, if we don't want policy to say you can do this thing, do we want policy to say you may not do this thing?" A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 21:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd appreciate it if you strike this crap, thank you. I do not like to be misrepresented in a manner that violates policy. Penyulap 01:56, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
  • per Bongwarrior perhaps this is an area that the project can allow humor. I recall Bishonen having humorous sock accounts. Penyulap has been attempting to encourage changes. Perhaps some users have found that input was not made in their preferred way. Perhaps Penyulap is having difficulty expressing difficult to hear ideas. The humorous redirect does not seem to be worth much discussion. Consensus should be followed. At the same time more encouragement of Penyulap could have positive consequences. NewtonGeek (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • @ Fluff: To me, the process itself is backwards. In short, that which is not prohibited is allowed. The burden should be on those who want to take away this existing right to do this, not on Penyulap. Penyulaps RFC is moot, as he can already do this, and anyone who disagrees has the burden to show why he can't, and they haven't done so. Dennis Brown - © 22:05, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that s/he can do so, under the current policy (despite some editors not liking it). I'm suggesting that the policy be updated to address this issue clearly, one way or the other. Is this RFC an inadequate venue to do so? If so, why not (hopefully we don't need process for process' sake). Cheers, JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The current policy is "User pages are pages in the User and User talk namespaces, and are useful for organizing and aiding the work users do on Wikipedia, and facilitating interaction and sharing between users." There has not been any consensus that a redirect to article space falls anywhere whithin the basic guideliens of the policy, and strong consensus that redirects out of user namespace runs counter to those objectives. -- The Red Pen of Doom 22:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
Neither is the redirect from user space to article space something that is specified in a very long list of what redirects are to be used for Wikipedia:REDIRECT#Purposes_of_redirects and in fact also runs counter to the purpose of redirects " Redirects aid navigation and searching by allowing a page to be reached under alternative titles."-- The Red Pen of Doom 22:18, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I oppose changing policy to deal with this. This is a perfect example where bureaucracy is not needed – if it is a bad idea (and it is) but doing it won't harm the encyclopedia ( it won't), then let the editors who think it is a bad idea weigh in at the talk page of anyone doing it(yes, I catch the irony) and express their displeasure. Anyone interested in being a part of the community will comply, or suffer the consequences.SPhilbrick(Talk) 22:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
See Red Pen's comment, above. If his interpretation has merit (and it seems to), then a policy change here prevents future confusion. JoeSperrazza (talk) 22:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
How do you interpret that which does not exist? That isn't interpretation, that is opinion. You can interpret the existing policy which seems to go out of it's way to be mute on the subject. Saying it runs counter to a list is saying that editors are only allowed to do things on a list, a view that I'm obviously diametrically opposed to as that is the very definition of bureaucratic and is entirely too dogmatic. We do not interfere with an editors choice of how to edit his "humor" account unless it interferes with the greater project. Again, no one has show where it is against policy or how this hurts the project, so it serves no purpose but to feed more bureaucracy. We should leave people alone unless you have a reason not to and one has yet to be presented. This is exactly the kind of "rules for the sake of rule" thinking that drives people away from here. Dennis Brown - © 22:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

There does not appear to be a cat in hell's chance of this policy being changed as a result of this discussion. If there is any doubt whatsoever about that, I would invoke IAR anyway. If there is any benefit in explicitly allowing users the right to sock in specific ways, that benefit would be more than outweighed by the effort it would take to define what socks may or may not do. Non-admin closure. —WFC23:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

4 hours for a RFC seems rather short, re-opening. Penyulap 01:49, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
Re-opening this doesn't seem very productive. IIRC, everyone who so far commented opposed, and that includes quite a few tenured editors. Even without WP:SNOW, you yourself said that you know what the result will be. Are you doing this just to prove a point? If so, please stop. If not, this is a waste of time, please re-close.   — Jess· Δ 02:59, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Seems a fair statement, however when you look carefully at the reasons for opposition, in so far as policy is to be assumed and naturally based upon common-sense in some cases, that argument doesn't take into account that the RfC has now illustrated the actual problem, which is a failed addition to the policy page is assumed by many to be policy of the opposite. Now, rather than common-sense and a policy page not restricting something meaning it is allowed, the initial closure of the rfc is taken as 'it is now policy that redirects are prohibited' even though it is not on the policy page. Thus it is a self validating question, and the incorrect response produced causes further discussion as the assumption rolls across the project. You'll be locked into future problems further along you see (actually come to think of it, maybe just i can see, whatever). Penyulap 03:17, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
For the record I was not informed about this RfC's reopening, and consider it utterly inappropriate for a nominator to re-open without refuting the basis for closure. My judgement was, and remains, that this highly watched page is not the place for attention seeking, that the proposal as written does not have a cat in hell's chance of instigating a change to policy, and furthermore that the author openly admitted such, which in my opinion takes this into the realm of disruption to prove a point.

My judgement is that this should be re-closed, but I accept that I should leave that for a third party to decide. To the nominator: my advice would be to drop this, as it seems like a lot of stress for very little potential gain. However, having been in a position where I felt I was right and other people were wikilawyering, I understand that you may not feel able to do so. In that case, I would suggest first trying to demonstrate that the action against you was unjustified. While I don't encourage you to go down that route, a discussion along those lines would be neither disruptive nor a foregone conclusion, and would probably be your best chance of demonstrating that a policy change is needed. —WFC14:26, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

I second closing this discussion and the one below and reopening a single RfC with three options: Modify guideline to specifically allow redirects from user page to article space, Modify guideline to specifically prohibit allowing redirects to article space 3) making no modifications to guideline about this issue at this time. -- The Red Pen of Doom 14:33, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
What RPoD said. There's a discussion to be had here,but the initial phrasing of the RfC was sufficiently muddled that we really need to re-structure and start over to get valid responses. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 14:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
I must say I find it amusing to be calling me pointy or attention seeking in this case, like I somehow convinced everyone to edit war over my _hidden_ userpage, did I do that ? Can it be done at all ? Hmm. I don't think so. No, I think the editors and admins are not my sockpuppets (wait, just checking.....hmm...umm....nope, Not mine..) looks like it's their idea and their confusion not mine. The proposal doesn't actually seek to change policy, it seeks to help stop the confusion over an existing widespread practice. It's to prevent the dramaz, not start them, even if the hero did duck under the big bullie's legs and kick him in the bum for good measure, but hey, that's TV for ya.
I agree with TheRedPenOfDoom and Fluffernutter that, provided a practical proposal is launched and advertised, this one can be closed. However, changing existing policy in four hours flat sending people out to enforce a conlimited is like, so totally not a great idea in the peace and tranquillity department, which is why I'd re-opened it. Warring over userpages is not my idea, writing down the policy where there is confusion, to prevent further confusion is. Penyulap 19:39, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)

transclusion, copying, truth, verifiability

If people are going to want to wander along the (wrong in my opinion, but that's cool) path, then how far along this path are you wanting to go ? Is transclusion OK, to prevent the messages to the subject of an article sort of thing, is copying the article ok to solve that and other problems like people wanting to edit my userpage (it happens I kid you not, no, it really does, amazing eh?) and then if you can't copy are we going to limit people to telling things that are plausible, or go further into verifiable or truth ? Penyulap 12:11, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)

I for one look forward to the next round when we argue over whether transcluding article space articles into your userpage is acceptable. {{:Thomas Moore}} Monty845 15:38, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Yep, do you want to sit on the board and judge whether people can say only the notable things about themselves ?
Or the WP:V/u board, where I have to prove that I am Thomas Moore :)
How about copyright issues, can we quote ourselves on our userpages ? Penyulap 18:01, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Redirecting a user page to an article page has no benefits for anyone but the user. If a user wants to link to an article, it can be done in the user page, maintaining a clear separation of user and article space. G. C. Hood (talk) 00:11, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recent change

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
No clear consensus for either position seems to exist, and a few people have also brought up possible issues with instruction creep. Therefore, the status quo stands. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:51, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

I support this change. JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:51, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I contest the change, at least at this point, and I have removed it. I think the best course would be to refocus and continue the above discussion. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:02, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I would have liked to continue the discussion, but it was closed. I was surprised at the WP:SNOW-labelled close, as most editors seemed to favor a policy change. Unclosing such discussions usually leads to WP:DRAMA, which I choose to avoid. JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:04, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Trying the discussion again would work for me, yeah. It might actually be a bit less confusing anyway to open a new RfC with a clearer proposal - something like "Should it be made explicit in this policy that user pages may not be redirected to anywhere other than user talk pages?" There are, of course, loopholes there - I can think of a scenario where many of us redirect user pages to other user pages (for instance, I might decide to redirect my traveling account's user page to my main account's), and often when someone moves an article out of a userspace sandbox there is, at least temporarily, a redirect to mainspace that no one has much of a beef with - so I'm open to other phrasings. Perhaps we could focus the RfC on the specific phrasing I floated, or another specific phrasing, rather than a general concept of what it should communicate? A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Agree with Fluffernutter's comments, above. JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:14, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Also agree, a new discussion might be clearer. I'm sure you both understand that I'm not trying to be a pain - the wording change accurately describes the gist of the discussion so far, but I just don't think the opposition had much of a chance to state its case. If we're still in the same ballpark in two weeks or so, I'll probably still disagree with the change, but I'll be more willing to go along. --Bongwarrior (talk) 01:21, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
No worries - glad to discuss. There's no rush. JoeSperrazza (talk) 01:26, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I'd oppose the proposed wording due to the concern you raised, and counter-propose something along the lines of User pages should not redirect to anything other than the user page or talk page of another account controlled by the same user. Although that along with the existing sentence gets somewhat long. Anomie 01:53, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Eek. I saw the above discussion was closed, read through it quickly, and implemented my change, figuring we'd get a revert and some input if anyone disagreed. It seems there was already discussion open in this section. If anyone has a problem with my edit, feel free to revert, and we can discuss it in more depth! Thanks!   — Jess· Δ 02:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Here's my change, by the way, which reads User pages and user talk pages should not redirect to anything other than the talk page of an account controlled by the same user. Actually, I think my wording could be improved upon. The more relaxed the better. Perhaps one of these 3:
  1. User pages and user talk pages should not redirect to anything other than another user page or user talk page controlled by the same user.
  2. User pages and user talk pages should not redirect outside of a user's own user space, and should not lead to page intended to cause confusion to other editors.
  3. User pages and user talk pages should not redirect outside of a user's own user space, and should not lead to a page intended for another purpose.
I prefer the first suggestion, but the others might give someone else a good idea for wording.   — Jess· Δ 02:20, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
while i cannot see where a redirect to article space would ever be appropriate, has this ever been an issue anywhere other than [2]? is it likely to ever come up as an issue again? i am not sure that making modifications based on a single isolated incident (which was as far as I can tell intended to be "fun" and not malicious in any way) is good practice. while i wouldnt oppose the change, i think i have reversed my opinion from above and would not support a change at this time.-- The Red Pen of Doom 02:48, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I have reverted the change again, there is one case of this being an issue, and as far as I know the only harm that has come from it is the fight over whether its permitted. User talk pages are very important for a variety of reasons, but userpages are much less so, and a redirect there is much less likely to cause problems. We don't need this WP:CREEP. If you really want to make get rid of the redirect userpage, take it to MfD (as this is more about whats permitted in userspace then normal redirect policy as would be found at WP:RFD) and make the case there. If I find an WP:AfC submission as a person's userspace, they have requested review, am I prohibited from leaving a redirect behind when moving it? That makes no sense. Finally the version I reverted is likely to lead to confusion and could be interpreted to apply to all user pages including sub pages, which would clearly not be supported by consensus. Monty845 04:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

I also disagree with the (now again reverted) change to disallow redirecting from userspace to mainspace. First, it is now based on a single issue. Secondly, most of these redirects are not causing any harm. People have a lot of freedom about what to do with 'their' userspace, only few things are outright forbidden (or can be unquestionably deleted). Leave it be, we are not a bureaucracy. If you really have such a problem with a specific case, try to convince the editor (though it is still 'their' userspace), or put it up for an MfD. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:16, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

  • I find the whole affair a bit distasteful, as I don't think we need to be micromanaging another editor's user page when there is no "harm". Why do we need to force editors to comply with a rule that doesn't exist if their actions are not harming the project? That the community thinks it can just come in and say "No, it isn't hurting anything or breaking a rule, but we don't want you to do it anyway, so we will force you." that alone is damaging to Wikipedia, as it sets a dangerous precedent that is not going to endear anyone to the project and is harmful to keeping good editors here. I maintain we don't have that authority, even if we have the means. It is a silly redirect to an article, on the userpage of a properly declared alternate humor account. It isn't important whether we "get" the humor or not, the only real question is "who are we to judge in a situation where no harm has been observed?" If you are wanting to drive editors away, this is the type of activity that does it. It is such a small thing, and that we have to actually defend it in such a vigorous manner shows how broken the system is. Dennis Brown - © 12:59, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I believe that redirect was humor. If this is about the user, then perhaps telling the user that trying to make points about what the rules leave unclear is not constructive. I don't think that redirect was trying to make a point. Otherwise, aren't there enough rules. If this ever happens again and damages the project maybe a rule could be formed then?NewtonGeek (talk) 13:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
That is what I mean, try to convince the editor (though it is still 'their' userspace), or put it up for an MfD. Not revert and protect. But that is apparently what mop-wielders think that the mop is for. And indeed, this is what drives editors away - now suddenly all those editors who in good faith move their userpage into mainspace (leaving a redirect behind) are disrupting the project, and may face their pages being deleted or blanked - leave their userpage alone, and talk to them. --Dirk Beetstra T C 13:28, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Stereotyping isn't helpful, as I have a mop myself but agree with your other point. The issue isn't "mop vs. no-mop", it is more about what we can and should control as a community. Dennis Brown - © 13:42, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
I know - and I agree, this is about what we can and should control as a community - however, and I have expressed that in this particular instance as well, control is not performed by the community, the control is performed by one, or some, individual(s) - those that remove what they don't like, and even go as far as enforcing it. Law of unintended consequences. --Dirk Beetstra T C 05:22, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
@Newton, the fact that the policy goes out of its way to exclude mentioning the user page tells us that it should be decided on a case by case basis. This is common here, as we don't want to be overly bureaucratic and leave many "rules" up to common sense. There are times when we do have the right to say "don't do that on your user page", such as when it is spam, hateful speech, is against another policy, or the content is so disruptive that the greater good of the community trumps the individuals right of expression. In this case, the amount of harm and disruptive is trivial, so we are (or should be) compelled to allow it. We don't have to like it, only tolerate it. This is why I say no addition to policy is needed, the intent is already clear. Why, as a community, we feel compelled to interfere where there is a lack of harm, I have no idea. Dennis Brown - © 13:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)
Discussing issues openly with users makes sense to me. I think this is an area where common sense is telling different people different things. I'd rather people in charge reached consensus before a user's choice was taken away. That could result in hard feelings. The user did positive things by bringing the issue up for discussion when it became an obvious point of contention. The user has reacted calmly when things didn't go in the user's favor. Some recognition for being responsible and a good sport seems like effort well-spent.NewtonGeek (talk) 17:13, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

for the sake of discussion, should this user have been allowed to keep their user page as a redirect to article space?

-- The Red Pen of Doom 01:19, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

That is rather moot, as even you have voted to delete the page it was being redirected to [3], so obviously you know your comparison is flawed, as you contrived the question to make some point which is irrelevant to the discussion. No one is saying you can't argue individual cases, only that there is no rationale given to deny the right to redirect in this Pen's example, except WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If that is the best absurd example of misuse of a redirect that you can find, then that would reinforce my point and I thank you. Dennis Brown - © 01:31, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
I ask the question because less than 24 hours after I stated "does this ever really happen?" i stumble upon a case where it has. Was User:Animeshkulkarni correct in removing the redirect to article space (User page is different from Article page)? -- The Red Pen of Doom 01:44, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
In your example, it is less clear. First, it is a redirect to a redirect, which automatically wrong, but it was an article just recently, so we look at that instead of the redirect, and since the policy is mute on the point, we look at each on a case by case basis. Motivation is the key when redirecting. If the article title is just a website name hiding as a NEO, and the redirect is for self promotion, we already have policies that cover that. If he was an engineer, and he just redirected his page to Engineering technologist, then I would leave him alone. As long as we have full access to his talk page, the user page is not so important, even if it is inconvenient. As a matter of fact, it is trivial to get your user page deleted and we even have a specific criteria for it, CSD#U1. It is almost impossible to get your talk page deleted, showing how differently the community views those two pages. The two pages are NOT the same, and this is why the policy spells out the rules for talk page, and leaves editors alone on their user page, meaning we only interfere if it is genuinely disriptive. As an admin, I shouldn't be able to just tell an editor what they can put on their user page without having clear and obvious reasons to limit them, to censor them, literally force them to change the page that by definition, is their page to define themselves on. Dennis Brown -

© 02:11, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your thoughtful analysis of this situation. I do however question some of the applications and premises that you are making. As per the nutshell: "User pages are for communication and collaboration. While considerable leeway is allowed in personalizing and managing your user pages, they are community project pages, not a personal website, blog, or social networking medium. They should be used to better participate in the community, and not used to excess for unrelated purposes nor to bring the project into disrepute." If user pages are "community project pages" to be used "for communication and collaboration", then directing to article space is directly opposed to that, since, as you point out, doing so is "inconvenient" which is never helpful and in fact IS disruptive in communication. The nutshell also quotes the policy that the user page is "not a personal website, blog, or social networking medium" which is, by definition, usage by which a user would "define themselves", and hard to claim on its face "is genuinely disruptive" to any greater degree than direction to article space.-- The Red Pen of Doom 08:00, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Right here is where the path splits in two. Editors can move towards co-operation and collaboration in an enjoyable manner where quirks and individualism is defined and celebrated and people can match themselves up, OR the other path, by moving towards regulating content in usepages it creates idiotic discussions and over-regulation. So weighing up the pros and cons of each approach correctly is pivotal, moreover, and I will say it to my last breath, if you keep decisions to yourselves by not writing them onto the policy pages, you do noting but foster warring. My sock userpage being a lovely example. Penyulap 16:54, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
(e/c)Actually I have.
Pros of allowing redirects to user space: "ha ha ha" (potentially)
Cons of allowing redirects to user space: inconvenience in using user pages for their intended purpose (communication and collaboration), lots of potential for confusion for readers and other users, either intentional or unintentional, dificulty in determining if a user is in good faith trying to "ha ha ha" or whether they are attempting to misdirect
when you pro/con there is no question. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:19, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
The Catch 22 is that this is a humor account, and we have traditionally been very lenient with humor accounts, so to be consistent, I think we have to look at the real level of disruption. Again, if it was the talk page, there would be no question, but the user page isn't for the community's use, it is for the editor's use. I use mine to tell a little about myself and organize my tools. Others just redirect their user page to their talk page, or keep their talk page not only blank, but fully deleted. Describing and defining yourself is certainly allowed as long as it isn't spam. If I was a snus aficionado (and I am), then why couldn't I use a redirect of my user page to snus as a way of describing myself in a bold manner? I agree that it is a pain in the ass, but the user page isn't required whereas the talk page is, and there is no functions on the user page that can not be accomplished from the talk page. As a matter of fact, the talk page offer MORE functions than the user page for at least IPs, such as geolocate and WHOIS. I guess to me this is more a matter of principal than of policy, and that we shouldn't interfere with users unless there is a clear reason why their actions are harming the community. It just seems a bit ham-fisted if no one is harmed. Dennis Brown - © 14:58, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
because creating a redirect to article space is not describing yourself. Creating a user page that says I am a snus user. however, is describing yourself. How do we interpret a redirect to Thomas Moore? That the user is a flat out liar because they most certainly not Thomas Moore? How would we interprest a redirect to Lady Gaga? that the person is an imposter account and needs to be speedy blocked?
Perhaps the biggest error was "we have traditionally been very lenient with humor accounts," and continuing the error may be very harmful to Wikipedia. -- The Red Pen of Doom 18:33, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
This is like the monkey with his hand in the jar, he wants to pull out the treat, but with it inside his fist, he can't remove his hand through the narrow opening. To achieve the goal of getting the treat, he must first let go of the treat. If you're going to say people can only have true things that build an encyclopedia on their page, who is going to police what is true ? I say I'm Thomas Moore and ok, it's not true so it's not allowed. Look at my other sock, User:PALZ9000 and the bans that have been placed on him on his userpage. Was he banned from interacting with Strategic command and the United States Department of Defence ? There are diffs provided to prove the claim. Lots of diffs and the diffs are real. So is someone going to tag it with 'in world' writing style ? do you need diffs at all, or is it left to vote on whose guess is correct ? You can say it's not a great example and 3 more editors will say it is. There is nothing but a pandoras box of more overdiscussing userpage content here. What board will all this be discussed on anyhow ? Thomas gets warred over, so where is that dispute settled ? Before you say anything starting with 'you' remember it's not me who is doing the warring.
I know only too well that to work for a cause, sometimes you have to work against the cause in order to have the greatest net gain. If you follow through the effects of the proposed regulation of userpages, you'll see they lead to a net loss. Penyulap 21:47, 14 Jul 2012 (UTC)
are we here to construct an encyclopedia or to allow "funny" sock accounts? -- The Red Pen of Doom 20:02, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
A little humor here and there is a good thing and can help avoid editor burnout. Its a thin line between positive levity, and disruptive editing, but there is a line. Monty845 20:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
  • I have often advocated, sometimes successfully, the redirecting of a draft article on a user subpage to the mainspace article that was produced as a result of a copy-paste move. I don't see a big problem here. Note that userspace to mainspace redirects occur by default every time that a userspace draft is moved to mainspace. I don't see a big problem with this redirect. However, if people think this redirect is a problem, it could be converted to a soft redirect. Userspace essays moved to project space also leave redirects by default, and here I think it is a good thing. Users often bookmark userspace essays, and if they are moved, the redirect is needed. Userspace userboxes may be moved to template space, and when this happens, the redirect is good. Also, when a draft article is move, it also makes sense to have its old talk page redirected. I think the above discussions are half baked, and that people should consider wider perspectives, and that if they mean the "main user page" or "main talk page", as opposed to subpages, then they should say so. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:45, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Just as a note, we don't have to bar all userspace redirects in order to bar a user's userpage specifically from being a redirect. I was never advocating the former, only the latter.   — Jess· Δ 01:49, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Some of these responses make sense to me, so I'm willing to retire from the discussion without pushing for changes. However, it seems relevant to point out that the examples we've discussed here appear to be rather tame, and the community has spoken clearly that even they are not appropriate. Given the possible BLP issues I mentioned above, we can imagine more egregious disruption than simply redirecting to a favorite article, or to your own biography. With this in mind, I'm having trouble envisioning a userpage redirect the community would approve of. If we know ahead of time that user-page redirects, in practice, are never going to be ok, then mentioning that here isn't creeping (or buro) as much as documenting an existing practice. I think that makes sense, but I'm willing to wait until this seriously harms the project before pushing rules about it. All the best,   — Jess· Δ 01:47, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
    • Retire if you must, but I don't think the community's voice is the final answer here. Consensus isn't the final word in all things. A consensus that is counter to the WP:Five pillars, for example, is void. Just because a dozen people on a page say we will no longer allow usage of the word "the" on the encyclopedia, that doesn't make it policy. I agree that no change is needed, but it isn't clear in any shape or form that the redirects are de jure improper, other than being decided on a case by case basis, since the policy goes to great lengths to leave them alone. Dennis Brown - © 02:17, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, sure, but that's just being pedantic (and I don't mean that as an insult). Our policy pages describe consensus, and are naturally open to revision as consensus changes. If consensus right now is that some behavior is always inappropriate, then we shouldn't fail to update our policy pages because CCC; we should update our policy, and if consensus does change, we can update it again. Similarly, and more to the point of your specific wording, the five pillars represent the consensus of the community, and I don't see this proposal violating that in any way. I don't think the two even intersect. If something changes in that respect, these policy pages aren't immutable. "Policy goes to great lengths to leave [userpages] alone", as you say, because we don't have firm standards for their treatment. If we do, then it doesn't make sense to avoid it just to avoid creeping. Anyway, I think there's general agreement right now that this isn't a big deal, so until it is... meh. All the best,   — Jess· Δ 03:12, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
What the policy pages do not say is significant. On one hand Dennis points this out by reading the context of what it does say, and on the other hand I point it out very clearly with the wording of my proposal and the surprising result. I must say I was quite entertained by the slamming shut after 4 hours, producing a conlimited, which, by the way more time won't remedy (the RfC is not really advertised properly). What is to be expected is when the proposal fails, same as some of the last ones I have done, editors go off believing that the opposite is now policy, and seek to enforce it as such, causes me no end of amusement right there, because as I've said, it doesn't matter what is decided, it has to be written down. Secret knowledge, Chinese whispers, cliques, it all ends in tears. My other hobby horse is nobody has a monopoly on right or wrong, and whoever is speaking should have little to do with the idea they are proposing. When you only listen to people you like, you shoot yourself in the foot right there, plus, you leave yourself open to people like me who will use your own silliness against you :) Doesn't matter who is talking, they may or may not have the right idea, you can never tell until you examine the proposal carefully on it's merits alone. Penyulap 17:55, 12 Jul 2012 (UTC)
I apologise to everyone, I shouldn't be such a smug bastard about the confusion everyone is in over this.
The problem is still here, that the failure of any addition to the page gives the impression that the opposite case is in effect, even when it's not the case. People say CREEP, we don't need something so obvious, I say baloney!!! as the confusion from not having it written is even worse, and demonstrate as much. This needs a proper top-down approach for clarification, as there are people who now want to create new policy where it didn't exist before, and well, I guess I am as responsible as anyone to take it to the correct place so people can thrash it out. Penyulap 07:42, 14 Jul 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.