This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Short description. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
We are under 900,000 pages without a short description
under 900k short descs
Greetings from Wikiproject Short Descriptions! If you are reading this, this means that we have reached the sub-900,000 mark! To facilitate this continued progress, I am going to ask a bunch of questions for administrators and other members of the WikiProject for conesus for formatting for short descriptions, and some requests for fellow editors to continue adding short descriptions to parts. -1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
1. How should [x in y] articles be formatted in the United States? a. (x in State) b. (x in State, US) c. (x in State, United States) d. (x in State, U.S.) -1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
I've been previously doing something along the lines of "Statue in California, USA" but I think "Statue in California, US" makes sense as well. The others - United States, U.S. - are needlessly long (especially when 40 characters is a recommended limit). LR.127 (talk) 16:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm not seeing a consensus here if either A or B is the preferred option. Either way, I'd really like to see this added to the page when consensus is reached. I'm in favor of B -1ctinus📝🗨19:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
It depends entirely on context, to ensure comprehensibility and usefulness to the reader. I don't accept that we need to choose exactly one of the four options you've proposed. MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Assuming that the country and/or state is not mentioned or implied in the article name and there is no potential for confusion with using "US", that should likely be the standard per MOS:USA, especially in cases where it would go over 40 characters. If there is room to fit "United States" within 40 characters, that can also be done if there are no other helpful words that could be used. In terms of automation, I guess B would be best, but it should be not be a requirement. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions22:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Consensus – dont use non fiction in short description to describe books
2. Should non-fiction books include "non-fiction" in the short description? Typically, genres are not included in short descriptions. -1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
No. Say what it is, not what it is not. Books should start with the year of publication — 2189 book by Jacob von Hogflume, 2050 novel by Charles Morningstar, 2058 anthology by Linda Martin — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me19:53, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Probably not. If there is more space in the SD after including the date, type of work, and author name for a non-fiction book, then a specific field is preferable (e.g. "1997 history book by Charles Smith" vs. "1997 non-fiction book by Charles Smith"). Otherwise, fine to just leave as "book". -- Patar knight - chat/contributions22:48, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
3. Do "x of y" and "x in y" articles qualify for WP:SDNONE for subnational entities and municipalities, even if the average reader may not know of the region or municipality? (e.g. History of Jiangxi) If they do not qualify for WP:SDNONE, what is their proper format? -1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Both of those should be WP:SDNONE. The description for Jiangxi can explain that it's a province in China, but it's not the job of the description for History of Jiangxi to indicate this.I'm not opposed to the below suggestions along the lines of "History of the Chinese province" for subnational entities.Uhai (talk) 03:53, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
WP:SDNONE may work, but is not very user-friendly if the term is likely to be unfamiliar to the reader. Prefer "Aspect of Chinese history", "Aspect of Welsh history" MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I think "Aspect of Chinese history" is not as good as say "History of the Chinese province"/"Chinese provincial history". If they do not know where Jiangxi is, there are multiple other things they might think it might be that might also be aspects of Chinese history. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions23:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I don't think SDNONE should be used for subnational/municipal entities. We can (somewhat) reasonably expect people to know countries, but not anything below that. The SDs for these articles should at least indicate what country is being discussed and ideally the level being covered if possible to fit within the SD (e.g. province, state, municipal). -- Patar knight - chat/contributions22:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I’ve generally agreed with that, however, everything that is suggested is super ugly sounding and repeats the title slightly. The examples given "History of the Chinese province"/"Chinese provincial history" sound unpleasant and repeat the word history. This is my biggest problem with WP:SDNONE. is it "sufficiently detailed"? -1ctinus📝🗨00:42, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Repeating one word isn't the worst, especially when it is "history" as opposed to something more jargony. We should assume that reader will know what that means instead of needlessly applying elegant variation. In respect to your last sentence, I would be shocked if most readers would be able to say that Jiangxi is a Chinese province as opposed to a number of other Chinese things that might plausibly have "History of X" articles. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions01:57, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes and I have been adding none SDs to such articles for a while now. Many of these articles that I have not touched also have none SDs, so there may be an implicit consensus here assuming it's not a very small group of editors adding them. The rationale here is similar to above: Tom Cruise's SD should indicate he's an American actor born in 1962 but not Tom Cruise filmography's SD. Regardless; filmographies, discographies, and bibliographies are essentially list articles which should be WP:SDNONE anyway. Uhai (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
My issue is that that feels a little clunky because of the reuse of "filmography". I think I've seen some filmographies with SDs along the lines of "List of film performances by the American actor" which I like better but these are perhaps a little lengthy. I'm not opposed to either option instead of SDNONE. Uhai (talk) 23:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I think SDNONE can apply, since the non-name "-ography" part of the title tells the reader what the article is going to be about. Would not be opposed to what Michael Maggs mentioned though as long as it tracks with the main biographical article. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions23:07, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Most election articles have a fully describing title and so none is fine. If there is a temptation to add a SD, then perhaps the article title should be changed instead? — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me19:57, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
My concern with election articles is when the name of the election doesn't indicate the office(s) being elected. What does a "general election" in New Zealand mean? Does it only include parliamentary elections, or are there local offices as well? Are there any nationwide referenda or other offices chosen? For 2022 Brazilian general election, an SD of "2022 elections for Brazilian congress and executives" answers the question of where, when, and what the scope of the election is in a way that the article title doesn't. But it's also not a good article title, since the name of the election is the "general election". So I think SDnone needs to be a bit more judicious when it comes to election articles. VanIsaac, GHTVcontWpWS21:33, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
The SD doesn't need to define what "general election" means for a given country; the article lede can clarify which offices are being elected. I don't see anything wrong with general election articles being WP:SDNONE. For 2022 Brazilian general election, "2022 elections for Brazilian congress and executives" is borderline too lengthy and unnecessarily restates the year and the word "election". The inability to avoid restating words from the article title is an indicator that the SD should be none. Uhai (talk) 04:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
These can be hard, as titles often include words that are unfamiliar outside the relevant country or region, eg "general", "gubernatorial", "union", "midterm", "primary" and so on. If there's no way to indicate even in general terms what or who is being elected, without writing a definition, it's best to be very general, making sure the country is included if not already in the title eg "State election in India". MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I think SDNONE would apply to elections at the national level. At the subnational level, I think it is helpful to state what country the election is in and what level it is (e.g. "French regional election", "Japanese municipal election", Malaysian federal by-election"). Unlike countries, we cannot reasonably expect readers to be familiar with the overwhelming majority of subnational divisions or municipalities, and it is helpful to indicate what the elections are to readers. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions23:10, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
6. Should the template be lowercase (short description) or uppercase (Short description)? Is it editor preference?-1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
7. Should short descriptions include unsourced birth and death dates? Should tools allowing for quick extraction of birth and death dates for short descriptions be deprecated? -1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
If birth and death dates are unsourced, it should be removed from the article altogether (and not included in short descriptions, either). I'm not sure about automated tools. LR.127 (talk) 16:44, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
The SD should be "inspired" from the lead, and possibly the infobox and categories. The SD should not include information missing from the article. If the dates are unsourced, then they should be removed from the article or, at the very least, be flagged as {{CN}}. Sometimes, of course, there is a little room for patience with a very new article, but if the SD adds unsourced data, then you must re-visit the article a short time later and confirm that the data is now sourced. — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me20:04, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
Everything in the SD should be supported by the article text and everything in the article text should be supported by reliable sources. Tools that extract data from the article for the SD should be fine if human-assisted rather than operating fully autonomously. Uhai (talk) 04:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
WP:SDCONTENT says The short description is part of the article content, and is subject to the normal rules on content. In practice, dates without in-line citations are sometimes copied from the article body to the SD, which generally isn't too serious a problem, as WP:V requires in-line citations only for material challenged or likely to be challenged. The situation for living people is different, though as WP:BLPSOURCES demands that unsourced contentious information (which is very likely to include a birthdate) "must be removed immediately". That's reflected at WP:SDDATES which states Care should be taken when the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy applies: birthdates for living people should not be included unless sourced within the article. The answer to your second question is likely to be no if the tool is human-assisted (each entry checked one by one by an experienced editor). MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:49, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
Ideally the dates should be supported by in-line citations, but unless it is a BLP (in which case the date should be sourced or removed from the body per other existing BLP rules), there isn't too much harm in using the dates in the article. Probably can be left to editor judgment, unless there is a way to filter for BLP entries. -- Patar knight - chat/contributions23:13, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
It is surprising (?) how many sports article fail to mention the actual sport. Nobody knows what WNBA stands for, so initially the article lead needs to talk about what sport is involved. Once the lead is fixed, the SD often follows naturally — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me20:14, 18 August 2024 (UTC)
I've struggled with what to do for sports draft articles. I think the annual event articles could be WP:SDNONE while articles like WNBA draft and NFL draft could indicate the sport and the frequency of the event. I don't think any of these aforementioned articles' SDs should describe what a sports draft is, since Draft (sports) exists to do this. Perhaps something like:
I explained above that one should avoid restating words from the article title but I should clarify that my general rule is that one word being restated is okay. Uhai (talk) 04:39, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
It's really important to indicate the sport: "WNBA", for example, means nothing to many (most?) readers outside the US. WP:SDNONE is not appropriate for 2004 WNBA draft. It could be "US Women's basketball player selection" (38 characters). MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:59, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I'd not be against draft articles being handled this way, although I think the addition of the word "league" may be beneficial for clarity. The way that is written makes me think of a player selection for the US national team or something rather than for a league. Uhai (talk) 23:03, 19 August 2024 (UTC)
I also want to give attention to some types of pages that I would appreciate people adding short descriptions to.
Gaelic sports
Locomotives
Satellites
Minor planets/asteroids
Finishing infobox book (I did most of them in June)
It took 87 days to get from under a million to 900,000. By that rate, all articles will have a short description by October 2026. However, if we have consensus on formats, I believe that we can achieve that target sooner. Here's some admins I want input from: GhostInTheMachineUhaiQwerfjkl-1ctinus📝🗨12:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
Interesting. I fixed that one yesterday, but the search system is seeing an older version of the article. I nudged it a few times, so maybe it will catch up... — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me17:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)
Screenshot of an error with a Wikipedia search I had another go at this today. I ended up by removing the SD template, to see if the search could be "nudged". The result is that the search now finds the same page TWICE. At least, it finds the real one, plus an old version of the page that seems to be the one stuck in the search index. Both search results give the same article name and the same link. Looking at the history, the page was moved to draft on 2024-06-09 (at 16:49) and then re-created (forked? duplicated?) in article namespace on 2024-06-11. The pre-draft version of (2024-06-09 16:09) is the one living as a zombie in the search index. Does anybody know how to kill search zombies? — GhostInTheMachinetalk to me13:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Piggybacking off of this, the algorithm is basically as follows:
Title is a proper name? Not WP:SDNONEN
Is a X of... article?
Outline of...N
List of... Go to obscurity test
All other kinds, e.g. Glossary of..., Bibliography of..., Index of...
Function words used to link terms of the title phrase? e.g. History of communication, Islam and cats
Article cannot plausibly be confused in scope with any other? Y
Article can only be described by unhelpfully rephrasing its title? Y
Obscurity test is purely pragmatic, reckoning whether the average English Wikipedia reader is likely to intuit enough based on bare recognition of each term in the name: e.g.
Communications in AlbertaY
Communications in KwangoN, which sadly betrays our ignorance of this noble province within the DRC.
What harm does it do if an article has a short description even if it passes the obscurity test? The short description serves as a page subtitle, that’s part of the reason they were likely implemented in the first place, and it helps accessibility, and it helps people who might need additional context. I for one appreciate additional context, and for current / former highway list articles, i’d argue it’s helpful to clarify, as List of Alberta provincial highways previously included even decommissioned highways. It doesn’t do any harm to have a proper short description. Having a short description set to “none” doesn’t help anyone and at that point the Short description template may as well be excluded altogether as there’s no reason to have a template be transcluded in an article if it doesn’t do anything. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 01:28, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
In my view, it's harmful in the same way (if not to the same degree) that a clunky lead sentence is. Redundant or vestigial information is distracting when its presentation is clearly meant to be particularly parsimonious (e.g. only 40 guaranteed characters). If you'll forgive me, they're such a problem to me because I don't like them for their perceived inelegance. It's something I can't blame others for not being bothered about, especially since I specifically turned on the ability to see them on desktop while most other editors haven't. Remsense ‥ 论01:36, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
That would be true if the opinions were only my own. I was just explaining how I personally understand and motivate this particular convention to the extent I do, but it's still a shared convention. Remsense ‥ 论02:53, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Well it’s the wrong convention to have. Having a short description set to none doesn’t help anyone. It’s literally in the guideline that all articles should have a short description, yet, having it set to “none” doesn’t give it a short description and contradicts its own policy. It also does nothing to help a reader understand, especially if a potential reader needs additional context, e.g. if they struggle with reading comprehension even just a little bit. My stance on the matter is that short descriptions being set to none is unhelpful. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 03:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Well, this is sort of why I was trying to frame it the way I did: (forgive me if I mischaracterize) you see SDNONE as a wasted opportunity to inform readers, I see its antithesis as a potential stumbling block in informing readers. There's no empirical data in front of us telling us which one of us is closer to the mark in aggregate, so all we can do is try to understand where the other is coming from. Remsense ‥ 论03:10, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
How can a short description be a "potential stumbling block"? I'm genuinely confused by this, because I've always found short descriptions to be useful, not a stumbling block when it comes to informing readers. It's a useful tool, and in my view, it's there to be used. - Evelyn Harthbrooke (leave a message · contributions) 08:01, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Well, this is potentially a point where we conceptually disagree. I'm being asked to pick the smallest nits in the world: in my mind, space just is never free and information should always be presented as intentionally as possible: text inherently brings attention to itself and contributes visual noise, and unexplained redundancy or awkward semantic overlaps between title and short description can absolutely cause confusion or just make the entire text feel less cohesive—this is the second thing one sees with any given article, and that matters a lot. Remsense ‥ 论08:14, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Here's the problem with an obscurity test: it would be inherently biased towards wherever the person lives. Do English Wikipedia readers in Uganda know what the fuck an Arkansas is? -1ctinus📝🗨01:56, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Per The Transhumanist's own advice (which I agree with) and outline house style: outlines aren't as common a reference type out in the world as the others, so it makes sense the title wouldn't be sufficiently clear like "List" or "Glossary" is, Remsense ‥ 论02:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
One more comment before I go to bed: multiple discussions have been brought up over when and when not WP:SDNONE applies and it has never reached any consensus. It is of my opinion that clearly an RfC is needed to revise the guideline so it is far more obvious where it applies and where it doesn't. -1ctinus📝🗨02:03, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree that there are some head scratchers when it comes to when to use none and when not to use none for an SD. But one situation where SDNONE is spot on is ensuring the SD doesn't simply repeat the article's title. Masterhatch (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Quite a lot of people misunderstand short descriptions. They were introduced for disambiguation when someone uses a device to search for a title of interest. On typing "Joe Citizen", the device lists matching titles and displays the short description for each such as "politician" or "author (born 1960)". That information allows the user to select which page they want to visit. The guideline states that all articles should have a short description so that articles missing a description can be found and fixed. As WP:SDNONE explains, some titles need no disambiguation and "none" is used to mean that no short description is needed. Category:Articles with short description explains that what is actually tracked is use of the {{short description}} template—each article should have that template (possibly provided by another template). Johnuniq (talk) 09:20, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Not WP:SDNONE
Go to obscurity test
