Wikipedia talk:Page mover/Archive 5

Archive 1

←

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Unclear: Can PM move over redirect with history?

I needed to move an article over a redirect to it, which already had some history. I read at this project page that a page mover can delete a redirect with no history, which is obviously not my case. Therefore I asked admins to do it and got reply that no admin is needed. My request resulted in a page swap and I guess that it could have been done by a page mover. Am I missing something? Should the page mover description be updated? Ping: Kj cheetham, Robertsky. Petr Matas 13:50, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Page movers cannot move over redirect with history; that would require a page swap. Your RMTR was declined because there was an active AFD, not because of any admin/PGM differences. I guess I'm not sure what you're wanting updated. Primefac (talk) 14:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Auto-cofirmed editors (= most editors on Wikipedia) can move over a redirect if that redirect has no edits in its history (other than the creation) and it redirects to the page being moved. Editors with the pagemover right can additionally move a page over a redirect with no history regardless of where that redirects is pointing. In your case, the redirect had history so the usual way to make carry out the move is via a page swap (which can be done by either admins or pagemovers). Deleting the redirect is also an option, as long as there's nothing meaningful in its history, but that requires an admin. Incidentally, you happen to be the creator of the redirect, so you could have alternarively asked for that redirect to be deleted with {{db-g7}} and then moved the page yourself. Uanfala (talk) 14:04, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

If the redirect has been edited by someone else, or the redirect was created as a result of a pagemove, G7 is not applicable. Primefac (talk) 14:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes! But these don't apply for the redirect under consideration, so G7 would have been applicable. Uanfala (talk) 14:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough, my statement was more general (I see a lot of people reference statements like yours when asking "why did you decline my G7"). Primefac (talk) 14:17, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

I am just trying to clarify the page mover capabilities. Now I understand that a page mover can get rid of a redirect with history (using a page swap), but I think that this fact is not clear from the current text of this project page. Petr Matas 14:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Petr Matas Page mover cannot move over redirect with history. What can be done, and has been done is to utilise the right to suppress automatic redirect creations made during page moves, and perform round robin page moves.

Separately: while @Kj cheetham was replying to the request at RMTR, I was nibbling at the request as well. I saw the ongoing AfD, and had it closed, and then subsequently moved the pages before returning to RMTR to followup (and then saw Kj's comment). It seems that I had the two, AfD and RM conflated and it resulted in something which you or anyone involved in the original AfD may not want. Do let me know and I will revert my moves, have page restored to the original title, and have my original AfD closing statement to be modified stating that the result was just the merge and a separate discussion to take place for the renaming of article. Courtesy pinging of those originally involved in the AfD as well (@Kstern, @SailingInABathTub, @Buffs). – robertsky (talk) 14:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

My starting point was a sentence at WP:RMT#Administrator needed: "Place your request in another section if it only requires a page mover." Thus I consulted WP:Page mover#Flags granted and came to the mistaken conclusion that page mover would not be able to complete my request. Therefore I stopped reading and did not come across the section WP:ROUNDROBIN, which answers my question. I will try to improve this page to avoid such misunderstandings. Petr Matas 14:49, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

However, since the redirect in question had only rcat assignments in its history, I felt that it should not be kept during the page move, and that could not be done by a page mover, could it? Requesting it to be deleted did not come to my mind, because I felt that it should be done as part of the move. Petr Matas 15:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Just to add there is link on RMT to Help:When_to_place_technical_requests_in_"Administrator_needed" that was meant to clarify things a bit. There's often more than one way to skin a cat, as the saying goes. -Kj cheetham (talk) 19:33, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed it during this conversation. Unfortunately I clicked the other link first. Petr Matas 17:22, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Petr Matas, Kj cheetham, this is old now but I didn't see it at the time -- is there some way to make that help page more prominent either of you could think of for these situations? I wrote it back in '21, and it did help (after the admin-needed section was introduced practically everything went there for a while), but I've always thought it could stand out a little more. It was bolded at one point, but that was short-lived. Vaticidalprophet 01:23, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Vaticidalprophet, not sure, maybe something in the box at the right? Might be worth asking at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves? -Kj cheetham (talk) 13:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Why is this right so restricted?

(This isn’t a complaint or proposal, just a question). Nothing about the privileges granted as a page mover seem like they would be particularly hard to undo, and the revoking criteria are very liberal. So why is the standard minimum edit count 6x that for ECP privileges? Mach61 (talk) 00:40, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

PM is a powerful tool, more so than ECP. Move wars can be very disruptive, and aren't always that easy to clean up, as I know from experience as a page mover cleaning up bad moves by non-PMs. Edit warring comes easy to some people, myself included, but as a page mover, I'm every careful not to do so, as required by the criteria. This includes the temptation to revert moves that I know regular users can't revert back. I find the threat of the loss of PM privileges very effective in curbing my natural instincts. So far, I've been successful in resisting those temptations. It isn't always easy for me, but fortunately page moves occur infrequently compared to standard editing. Many ECP users wouldn't be able to resist, however. BilCat (talk) 01:25, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Personally I think we are far too quick to allow normal page moves to editors, and probably also to grant this right. Johnbod (talk) 01:48, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it can take a while to learn the ins and outs of article titles and moving pages. I had over 10 years of moves and RM discussion experiences before PM became a thing, and I'm glad for that experience. The fact that PM isn't granted automatically, but on a case by case basis, makes me believe our current requirements are probably fine as-is. I don't have a lot of experience moving files, so I've never requested permission for that. BilCat (talk) 02:00, 29 August 2023 (UTC)