Wikipedia talk:Consensus
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Q: When was WP:CONEXCEPT, which says that editors at the English Wikipedia do not get to overrule the Wikimedia Foundation on issues like server load, software and legal issues, first added? A: It was added in January 2007 by User:Circeus, after a brief discussion on the talk page in the context of whether this page should be a policy rather than a guideline. It has been discussed and amended many times since then, e.g., here, here, and here. |
“ | Consensus is a partnership between interested parties working positively for a common goal. | ” |
— Jimmy Wales |
Consensus might become hindrance to truth
[edit]When Galileo was sentenced to death, the consensus was against what he said.
Recently someone asked me to gain consensus first even though I cited a strong, universally accepted reference for the material.
What if the right number of editors to reach consensus on a certain topic of an article is absent from participating that discussion?
How does WikiPedia fight fallacy of popular opinions? Kawrno Baba (talk) 07:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Kawrno Baba Please be specific and provide a link to where you were asked to gain consensus. Doug Weller talk 10:49, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller, please read the notice-box on top of here. Kawrno Baba (talk) 11:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- You really should have told User talk:StarkReport you were posting here. Have you read the page for which is the talk page carefully? Doug Weller talk 11:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- As a new editor I was trying to understand the concept of 'consensus during editing' myself first. Kawrno Baba (talk) 12:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Well, when discussing the substance of articles, it's not editors that we formally rely on (so not what's popular to them), although it's still their job to understandably and in summary fashion relate the relevant body of reliable literature, see generally WP:DUE, so that's what they either have agreement on or need to resolve. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- As a new editor I was trying to understand the concept of 'consensus during editing' myself first. Kawrno Baba (talk) 12:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- The editor said "Fails WP:NPOV" before saying "Please gain consensus for this first." So what the editor is really saying is "I think there is a problem with this edit and I've told you what it is. Your next step is to take it to the talk page to explain why you think I'm wrong and see what other editors think." Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- I don't understand how an editor can simply remove a content and claim that 'there might be a problem explain yourself'. The concept of judicial system is 'innocent until proven guilty'. This can be applied to other things as well.
- It's like accusing someone of theft, and then asking the accused to prove that he did not commit theft. This is irrational.
- If some editor thinks there might be a problem, and the said content is well cited, shouldn't he use the talk page to prove why he thinks there might be a problem to the said content? Kawrno Baba (talk) 06:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- You boldly added content. The other editor boldly removed it, citing WP:NPOV (not WP:V).
- What to do if you don't agree with that rationale? Start a discussion, perhaps by {{ping}}ing the other editor and asking why they believe your addition promotes a point of view. Compare Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus"#How to respond to a "no consensus" edit summary.
- What to do about your content during the discussion? See WP:QUO. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 07:08, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you. Kawrno Baba (talk) 07:14, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- You boldly added content. The other editor boldly removed it, citing WP:NPOV (not WP:V).
- Turning to your question, the Wikipedia goal is to resolve disputes based on the relative strength of the reasons put forth by editors with differing views (and, perhaps, some adjustments to take into account everyone's concern). There is no magic number. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:44, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- You really should have told User talk:StarkReport you were posting here. Have you read the page for which is the talk page carefully? Doug Weller talk 11:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- @Doug Weller, please read the notice-box on top of here. Kawrno Baba (talk) 11:01, 14 April 2024 (UTC)
- Everyone with a new idea that gets lots of opposition thinks themselves Galileo, the vast majority are just wrong. The Galileo fallacy is also a thing.
If an editor disagrees with you the first thing is to try discussion on the articles talk page, failing that WP:Dispute resolution is a useful guide to other options available. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 12:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)- This is true, but I've honestly seen it happen multiple times. Consensus can cause a group to react to scepticism like an immune system spotting a bacterium. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:40, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Your are right. The consensus is used for good reason, although consensus does not necessarily equate to or imply correctness. Gluo88 (talk) 11:39, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Split Votes
[edit]Hello. What happens when a vote is split 50/50? Am I right in thinking topic neutrality wins? Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 09:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- First, it’s supposed to be a discussion, not a vote… no one “wins” when we can’t reach consensus. Instead it means we need to explore compromises that might resolve the issue. Blueboar (talk) 11:40, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We have a couple of members who are basically refusing to accept that the vote reflects a need for a the article to remain neutral on certain topics. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
- This appears to involve a dispute (currently at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents) about whether Zoroastrianism is monotheistic.
- "Neutral" is a term of the art ("jargon") at the English Wikipedia. We say that all articles need to be neutral, but our definition of neutral may surprise you. According to the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view policy:
- if most/all high-quality sources say that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic, then the article is neutral if it, too, says Zoroastrianism is monotheistic.
- if most/all high-quality sources say that Zoroastrianism is dualistic, then the article is neutral if it, too, says Zoroastrianism is dualistic.
- If some high-quality sources say that Zoroastrianism is monotheistic and other high-quality sources say that Zoroastrianism is dualistic, the the article is neutral if it says Zoroastrianism has been classified as monotheistic by some and as dualistic by others.
- An article can only be neutral if it matches the balance of views found in reliable sources. If an accurate reflection of reliable sources would pick "X" as the answer, then having the article treat "X" and "Y" as being equally valid options would not produce a neutral article.
- Perhaps another way to say this is: Wikipedia editors need to neutrally reflect the contents of reliable sources. If the sources don't treat the options equally, then a WP:Neutral reflection of those sources will not treat the options equally, either. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. As close as we can tell, opinions vary wildly and depend on where in the history of the religion you're looking at. We have a few meta papers that seem to indicate no consensus regarding the claim. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Changes appearing over time are usually pretty easy: "From the Xth to Yth centuries, Zoroastrianism was often considered a dualistic religion, but modern Zoroastrianism is more usually described as a monotheistic religion" (or whatever the actual facts are).
- Usually, this approach results in the one side is satisfied because the article says it was originally their thing, and the other side is satisfied because the article says that it really is the other thing now. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:01, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not this time, lol. They stonewalled the idea, even though it's exactly what their sources say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Have you actually run an RFC? If not, we can help you write a clear question. There are also other approaches to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, if you'd rather try a different process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Pretty much. I think it's been resolved now and we have an academic sending us better sources for the page. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Congratulations on getting help from an expert. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:55, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Pretty much. I think it's been resolved now and we have an academic sending us better sources for the page. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:13, 7 May 2024 (UTC)
- Have you actually run an RFC? If not, we can help you write a clear question. There are also other approaches to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, if you'd rather try a different process. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:22, 6 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not this time, lol. They stonewalled the idea, even though it's exactly what their sources say. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 13:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. As close as we can tell, opinions vary wildly and depend on where in the history of the religion you're looking at. We have a few meta papers that seem to indicate no consensus regarding the claim. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 10:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We have a couple of members who are basically refusing to accept that the vote reflects a need for a the article to remain neutral on certain topics. Tiggy The Terrible (talk) 11:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
Some problems with consensus
[edit]- There are people demanding consensus to
- essentially prohibit any kind of change they don't like.
- deliberately make non-problematic changes look controversial.
- Some people's attitude is "convince me (but I won't be convinced no matter what)".
I am not against the consensus policy itself. But this is how consensus is sometimes actually used in Wikipedia. Those "brick wall" people drive good contributors out. 172.58.208.47 (talk) 03:25, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- WP:STONEWALLING is definitely a problem, but I'm unsure that it's a problem with the model of consensus and not rather a problem with the nature of people.
The opposite of your points, 'I insist my change must be made', 'my problematic change isn't controversial', 'It's intransigence not to accept my flawed arguments', are also common issues.
Both behaviours stem from very human behaviour of being sure of what we known to be true. We can try and distance ourselves from that, try to be open to arguments against our held position, but if that was easy then the world would be much better place than it is. A different consensus model, voting for instance, would be no less effected by this issue.
Stonewalling, as with WP:CIVILPOV pushing, are difficult to deal. RFCs can help, as they attract the larger editing community who may be less convinced of the current status that the local editors. The question is how to convince editors to be less dogmatic in their positions. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
A consensus is sort of a "super-majority" typically of votes (and yes, I know it's not supposed to be a vote) and arguments. And so a common warrior maneuver it to try to make it so / claim that the other side has to have a super-majority in order for their view to prevail. In other words, "my side wins by default unless the other side gets a super-majority". Or " "no consensus" means my side wins" North8000 (talk) 15:09, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
- It is a tricky problem, though, because we do generally need to have one specific version in the article, even in situations where there's no consensus. One of the reasons I'm opposed to interpretations of policy that give overwhelming preference to one side in a dispute is that it can encourage stonewalling and discourage engagement, consensus-building, and compromise. But ultimately there's always going to have to be a version and unless there is a clear supermajority in favor of it, there's always going to be people saying that it's the wrong one; there's no policy or practice that can perfectly solve this. I think that the most useful advice for people who are running into problems like this is to point them to the ways of escalating discussions and attracting more opinions. Generally speaking stonewalling and the like are a more serious problem in articles and discussions that have few people contributing to them - when more people contribute there will usually be some sort of consensus at the end, but it can be really hard to tease a consensus out of two or three people who are starkly at odds with each other. --Aquillion (talk) 07:27, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
- "no consensus" means my side wins" is basically what the policy states if "my side" is preference for an older version. But what consensus do we need to have to modify the policy on consensus? Oloddin (talk) 07:18, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
- If you're looking at the sentence in WP:NOCON that says the long-standing version is usually retained (assuming, e.g., that there is a long-standing version, that editors can agree on which version is the long-standing one, etc.), that's a description of a fact ("the common result is to retain the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit"), rather than a rule being imposed ("You should..." or "Editors must...") or even a best practice being recommended ("It's a good idea to...because...").
- That particular line was added originally by a now-blocked editor after multiple discussions (here and at WT:V) in which people (including me) said they weren't sure that it was entirely true. So apparently the answer to your question is: It's not difficult to change this policy. Sometimes we even let changes happen when we think they're dubious. Getting it into the policy was easy; getting it back out of the policy has proven to be much harder than getting it in. WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:04, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
Prohibiting any demand for consensus (things like "this change needs consensus", "no consensus to change", etc.) will help a lot. Demanding consensus is like "you need my approval to make this change". 73.66.2.97 (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Idea for a new feature
[edit]I was thinking that there could be a new feature where someone makes an edit but instead of applying it, ticks a box so that it has to gain approval from one other editor to be applied (and can’t outright be refused). This is a much less time consuming method that would replace talk page spam and be more of a proposal. It would also be ideal for contentious topics, to stop incorrect or uncertain content from being applied. Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:38, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals). Selfstudier (talk) 11:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- thanks Alexanderkowal (talk) 11:59, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- Note: The box at the top of that page says "Proposed policy changes belong at Village pump (policy)." (If you do start a discussion there, be sure to drop a note here with a link to that discussion.) - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:17, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
- On second thought, if you are proposing giving the editor the option to seek approval (or not) then maybe this would not be a change to the Consensus policy. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 16:21, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion is at Wikipedia:Village pump (idea lab)#Proposed edits feature Alexanderkowal (talk) 16:30, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Feedback request for an essay on CONLEVEL
[edit]Hi all. For anyone who is interested, I recently moved an essay I wrote into WP space, and I'd greatly appreciate any feedback anyone has (good or bad) or improvements. You can find it here. In the conversations I've seen here and elsewhere, I've noticed that ironically there doesn't seem to be much consensus on how to measure the level of consensus that something has, and I've tried to highlight some of the various factors in play without being too prescriptive in terms of how to do it. Hopefully someone might find it useful when CONLEVEL discussions come up. Scribolt (talk) 11:24, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
Cool. I will take a look, WP:CONLEVEL comes up quite frequently.Selfstudier (talk) 11:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
WP:NOCONSENSUS
[edit]Wondering if the old wording was more clear? We seem to have a new generation of editors that have a different interpretation of this policy. That caused us more edit wars than it solves. Nostalgic old man. > Moxy🍁 20:37, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- It seems to me that closers must be more active in this, its no use just saying it's Nocon, go ahead and sort it out. OK, in some cases it can be very clear but often it won't be so clear, as in the case that has prompted this question here. Selfstudier (talk) 21:02, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do agree with this point..... if someone's closing an RFC they should not tell people just to go ahead and have another RFC. If bold edits are contested and RCF are inconclusive...... those that edit wars in the contested content should be dealt with accordingly not rewarded with the content be included with experience editor having to deal with consequences.Moxy🍁 21:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I think in this case it is clear; an edit in place for just six weeks doesn't become the status quo.
- If it had been a few months, then things might be ambiguous, but that isn't the case here - six weeks is just too short. BilledMammal (talk) 21:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Part of the problem is that we seem to have forgotten how to reach compromises. Blueboar (talk) 21:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Consensus#No consensus after discussion, aka NOCONSENSUS, does not belong in this policy. No consensus is not a strategy for achieving consensus. No consensus belongs in WP:Editing policy and WP:Closing discussions.
- - SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like the idea of putting it in Wikipedia:Closing discussions. Also, I think the rather dubious bit about WP:STATUSQUO usually applying after the discussion is over should probably just get lost on during the trip to that page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- That’s two of us, with a silent audience. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Three of us, really, though how does one progress such a thing? Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Either we do it, and see if BRD will identify a Very Interested Person™, or we have an Official Discussion™ (RFC or otherwise). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Any day now maybe. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- I'll get grief if I bold edit that, it's a policy page, so I guess an RFC.
- Here? (Editing policy is also a policy page).
- Question " Should Wikipedia:Consensus#No consensus after discussion be moved to Wikipedia:Closing discussions? (and/or Editing policy).
- with this convo as RFCbefore. Selfstudier (talk) 09:08, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Any day now maybe. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:00, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Either we do it, and see if BRD will identify a Very Interested Person™, or we have an Official Discussion™ (RFC or otherwise). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Three of us, really, though how does one progress such a thing? Selfstudier (talk) 17:10, 9 August 2024 (UTC)
- Not entirely opposed to moving it, but I think some form of it needs to be retained in policy, and if not here then at WP:EP. Otherwise, the guidance may be viewed as a demotion of sorts at an informational page. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:18, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- That’s two of us, with a silent audience. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I like the idea of putting it in Wikipedia:Closing discussions. Also, I think the rather dubious bit about WP:STATUSQUO usually applying after the discussion is over should probably just get lost on during the trip to that page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:23, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Quite happy for the details to be examined (impartially). If there's some volunteers. Selfstudier (talk) 22:21, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
- Part of the problem is that we seem to have forgotten how to reach compromises. Blueboar (talk) 21:46, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
The post close discussions/editing have not achieved any consensus either and I have opened an RFC to try and settle the matter. Selfstudier (talk) 09:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- You have opened an RFC to try and settle the matter? Where? SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:09, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Years ago, Kim Bruning used to talk about the importance of "the wiki way" in identifying consensus, which is to say: If an edit sticks, it probably has some level of consensus. It might be a shaky, tenuous, temporary weakling of a consensus, but it's enough of a consensus that other editors don't feel obliged to instantly revert the edit. This may be difficult to achieve on hot-button issues (or if someone has outside influences, such as a paid editor or a volunteer for a political campaign), but that's the goal: to find something that the other 'side' won't revert. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- I miss Kim. He was very wise.
- What I read him as expressing is what is now called BRD and SILENCE. What I have deduced is that BRD is good for rapid development, and was more often appropriate in 2004 than 2024. Now, different to then, it is much better, expected, almost demanded, that there be a talk page record of consultation. Number of Watchers is no longer meaningful, and a quiet bold edit on a quiet page can be reverted as undiscussed even years later. SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:06, 11 August 2024 (UTC)
- Nothing should be reverted "as undiscussed." Editors should provide a substantive rationale. For more on this topic, see wp:DRNC. - Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 00:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Moxy, just for clarification, what exactly is this "
different interpretation
" you're referring to? Here's a version from 2017 that predates some of the recent tinkering. Is that the "old wording" you had in mind, and if so, what about this version seems more clear? Presentation, phrasing, or both?FWIW, this version was the last revision I paid attention to. I now see that some mini-subheadings have since been added along with a bullet covering FfDs. While well-intentioned, I think these unnecessarily crowd an already cluttered NOCON that's struggling to be concise. --GoneIn60 (talk) 03:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)- more clear here. Moxy🍁 09:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ah, well that's taking it way back! Is it more clear though? I suppose it depends on how the RfC is worded. The "proposed change" could be in reference to the bold edit added a year ago...or...it could be in reference to the recent effort to remove it. I suspect that's why additional verbiage was added later on. Unfortunately, as we've seen, it hasn't really gotten us any closer to solving the underlying issue of determining when a bold edit achieves some level of consensus without discussion. --GoneIn60 (talk) 10:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
- more clear here. Moxy🍁 09:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)
Consensus-based (not correctness-based)
[edit]The definition of consensus involves opinions or decisions that are generally accepted within a group, without explicitly addressing correctness. Consensus does not necessarily equate to or imply correctness. Even if the majority agrees on a certain viewpoint, it may still be incorrect. Sometimes, the correct viewpoint of a minority may be overlooked by the majority, but this does not affect its correctness. This means that while consensus plays an important role in the editing process of Wikipedia, it is not always directly linked to correctness
I guess that Wikipedia uses a consensus-based decision-making process rather than a correctness-based one for good reasons. Determining absolute correctness can be challenging, especially in areas where there is ongoing debate or where information is subject to interpretation. Consensus allows Wikipedia to function effectively even in the face of uncertainty or differing opinions. --Gluo88 (talk) 01:51, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia_talk:Consensus#Consensus_might_become_hindrance_to_truth triggered my above comments. Gluo88 (talk) 11:45, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- We're not the ones to correct. We are the ones to report the sources. WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS – The Grid (talk) 13:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- The thing to remember when Galileo is mentioned is the Galileo gambit. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Consensus doesn't imply correctnes or truth, but it does show the best understanding that the community has in a certain situation. If editors don't think the outcome was correct they should look to the strength of their arguments. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- Very few things are simply objectively correct or incorrect. (WP:Accuracy) and in those cases I'd guess that wp:consensus would go with the accurate side if there was even a debate. Most discussions have much more complex attributes such varying values, differing definitions of "correct"/ "incorrect", varying meaning of words, tilting article by inclusion/exclusion, selecting which of Wikipedia's vague and overlapping rules to apply, conflicting POV objectives (each self-defined as the only "correct" one) etc. "Sources" alone also does not settle it, you can always find a source that has the same POV as you. WP:Consensus is generally our way of making those decisions. North8000 (talk) 14:41, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are right. Therefore, I believe that the quality of arguments aimed at forming consensus should be more related to their persuasive power rather than their correctness. Furthermore, I think that the quality of arguments for consensus can be measured by the level of support they receive within the group. Gluo88 (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- This is already how consensus works, by editors policy based arguements. The second part though comes to close to WP:NOTAVOTE, consensus building shouldn't be a popularity contest. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 09:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- You are right. Therefore, I believe that the quality of arguments aimed at forming consensus should be more related to their persuasive power rather than their correctness. Furthermore, I think that the quality of arguments for consensus can be measured by the level of support they receive within the group. Gluo88 (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
- OP has added the following section to an essay: Wikipedia:What is consensus?#Not necessarily equate to or imply correctness.
- Anyways, I personally find the argument "Wikipedia should reflect the truth" to be pretty weaksauce. It's not that we don't want to reflect the truth, it's that any project this big which values "the truth" will have a pretty tough time governing itself. The reason policies like consensus exists is to make a decision-making process that actually works. It's going to be so worthless when you want to create a decision-making system that follows from "correctness". There's a whole philosophy of that I don't think I'm qualified enough to get into.
- There is also the idea that even if my viewpoint disagrees with the consensus, I can still sit in peace knowing I am "right" if I would write things like this. I personally don't think that is a good mindset. What matters most, I think, is justification. How you present your justification matters, just as the justification itself. There will be people who won't accept your justification. That's fine, not because you'd think you are "right", but because you believe you've made a valid effort in getting what you think is right to others.
- OP has also created an essay titled Wikipedia:What are High-Quality Arguments for Forming Consensus? and is about why they think how
level of support in the community
is important. ActivelyDisinterested was quick to spot thatconsensus building shouldn't be a popularity contest
. But hey. There's a reason why OP has asked for an admin on zhwiki to be desysopped, after they have themselves been blocked by said admin citing numerous reasons (one of which is misinterpretation of the consensus policy by suggesting that it is majority rule), then trying to get people to become an angry mob with said admin "abusing blocks". - It's unclear to me why in the request for de-adminship, OP's misquote of a third-party admin that they believed the block "isn't justified to be indef" as "isn't justified" still hasn't been corrected. My hunch is that they are less interested in the "truth" than playing with it as in populist politics. 0xDeadbeef→∞ (talk to me) 10:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not agree with your interpretation of my intention and will leave these points for other users to comment on, as I believe you may have misunderstood my intention due to your comments:
"There is also the idea that even if my viewpoint disagrees with the consensus, I can still sit in peace knowing I am "right" if I would write things like this"
, and"My hunch is that they are less interested in the "truth" than playing with it as in populist politics."
My essays and above comments were triggered by reading Wikipedia_talk:Consensus#Consensus_might_become_hindrance_to_truth as I mentioned earlier. - In my essays(1, 2), I argue that it is more important for Wikipedia to reflect the collective agreement of its contributors rather than striving solely for objective truth. This reflects my belief that Wikipedia should prioritize representing consensus over absolute truth..
- In my essays(1, 2), I also oppose majority voting and fully support the consensus-building approach. The key idea is as follows:
The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view
can be understood as follows: regardless of whether an argument initially represents a minority or majority opinion, a high-quality argument with greater persuasive power is more likely to be unanimously agreed upon or accepted by the majority in the process of forming consensus. In the process of forming consensus, the final method to determine whether consensus has been reached must be through understanding the level of support within the community, as this aligns with the meaning of consensus. Hopefully, my essay provides a better explanation. Gluo88 (talk) 14:50, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
- I do not agree with your interpretation of my intention and will leave these points for other users to comment on, as I believe you may have misunderstood my intention due to your comments:
"Truth" is a bad word to use because it has two completely different common meanings:
- Accurate / Accuracy
- Word commonly used in unsubstantiated or wild claims. E.G. "The truth about aliens at Area 51" "The truth about our alleged moon landings" "The truth about microchips in Covid vaccines"
A part of why we got rid of "Verifiability not truth" was because it denigrates/deprecates the pursuit of accuracy (in those cases where objective fact exists) by using a word with a second common meaning of #2 North8000 (talk) 14:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)