Jump to content

Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Franz Kafka/archive1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Resolved comments from Mark Arsten

[edit]
  • Comments: Ok, I've started reading through, a few small comments thus far:
  • Check for consistency with the serial comma, particularly when listing works.
  • Is his father's business' logo really relevant here? It feels a little extraneous.
  • Is there a good way around the one sentence paragraph in Education?
  • There are a few places I think you could use a pronoun instead of repeating "Kafka". It might be helpful to highlight the occurrences (easy to do in Chrome, not sure which browser you use). For example "In addition, law required a longer course of study, giving Kafka time to take classes in German studies and art history.[22] Kafka also joined a student club" & "At the same time, Kafka was also committed to his literary work and in his later years Kafka's illness often prevented him from working at the insurance bureau".
  • "This interest also served as a starting point for his growing relationship with Judaism. It was at about this time that Kafka became a vegetarian." Was there a connection between these two interests?
    • I think it's definitely possible that this exposure to Yiddish culture is connected to the vegetarianism. On p. 74 Brod says that Kafka compared vegetarians to the early because both groups were persecuted and on p. 109 Brod says Kafka encountered a nature healer around this time who promoted natural healing, opposed doctors and medicines, explained the Bible from a vegetarian viewpoint, ie, that Moses led the Israelites through the desert so they could be vegetarians for 40 years (manna is meatless). Kafka had quite an interest in these matters. In Stach, I have not found a mention of vegetarianism and it's not in the index. PumpkinSky talk 17:49, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd consider using a block quote for the large quotation in the first paragraph of Private life.
  • "According to biographer Reiner Stach, Kafka was later engaged a third time to Julie Wohryyzek, but he does not provide any details about the relationship." Who is "he" in this sentence?
    • Stach. All he says, on page 1, is "...and once to Julie Wohryzek, a secretary in Prague." That's his only mention of her in the entire book. I think this third engagement-not-resulting-in-marriage is important, just wish he said more about it.PumpkinSky talk 15:59, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is important, I find the sentence a little ambiguous though. How about "Kafka was later engaged a third time to Julie Wohryyzek, according to biographer Reiner Stach, who does not provide any details about the relationship."? Mark Arsten (talk) 14:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Mark Arsten (talk) 15:06, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, I read through another chunk, a few more comments:
  • "In a 1988 paper published by the Psychiatric Clinic of the University of Munich presented "evidence for the hypothesis that the poet Franz Kafka had suffered from an atypical anorexia nervosa"." This feels a bit jumbled.
  • "All of Kafka's published works, except some letters he wrote in Czech to Milena Jesenská, were written in German. However, his writing attracted little attention during his lifetime." I'm not sure that "however" really works here.
  • "Kafka was a prolific writer of the genre Erzählung" Pretty minor, but I would have said "the Erzählung genre", although I may be mistaken.
  • "Brod and publisher Kurt Wolff included "Das Urteil. Eine Geschichte von Franz Kafka." ("The Verdict. A Story by Franz Kafka.") in their literary yearbook" Just checking, but is the use of the period in the title correct?
  • "In 1961, Malcolm Pasley acquired most of Kafka's original handwritten work for the Oxford Bodleian Library.[138][139] The text for The Trial was later acquired through auction" Repetition of "acquired" here.
  • "A court battle began in 2008 between the sisters and the National Library of Israel, which claims they became the property of the nation of Israel when Brod emigrated to Israel in 1939." I'm a bit confused by this, how could it have been the property of the nation of Israel in 1939? Seems like an anachronism.
  • "According to Elias Canetti, within the novel "Kafka's engagement to Felice is re-imagined as the mysterious and menacing arrest of the hero"" Looking at the source, that seems to be Kakutani's summary of Canetti's views, not a direct quote of Canetti.
  • Reworded. Felice, in K's own words, said Das Urteil was "her story". PumpkinSky talk
Mark Arsten (talk) 14:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Crisco 1492

[edit]
This is a crop/derivative of another file on Commons. The photo is from Zeno, which to my understanding is a reliable source and they say it is PD/free of claims. I've copied the Zeno notice from the main photo to this crop.PumpkinSky talk 01:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This was deleted for the same reason as the one below.PumpkinSky talk 11:12, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have looked into this, and as is often the case with old photographs, it's complicated. Both are in my old copy of The Trial, published in 1968, without a copyright notice. So, according to here [1] they are " In the public domain due to failure to comply with required formalities". But it says under sources that they are "Courtesy of Dr Klaus Wagenbach". Other photographs of Kafka and his family are published in "Kafka: A Very Short Introduction" [2] and the copyright of these other photographs are said to be held by the Archiv Klaus Wagenbach, Berlin. I can't find a lifespan for "Fuchs", who might not have been the actual photographer, but the name of the firm. IMHO, for an FA, I think the status of these two images is currently too vague for inclusion. I suggest we remove them until we are certain.Graham Colm (talk) 08:57, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with that. We have to sure of the licensing. I see Graham has already deleted them.PumpkinSky talk 11:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:27, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

While the only visible changes to most users is italics, it helps with screen readers, improving accessability, so I will start on this right now. Let me know if I miss somthing.PumpkinSky talk 11:16, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's it for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:10, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's it for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:49, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • More from me, sorry this is taking so long.
  • "which appeared in 1908 as Betrachtung (Contemplation) in the first issue of the literary journal Hyperion." - As or under the title? How were these published? Eight amidst works by others, or were Kafka's works the only ones in that issue?
  • "under the title" fixed. Sources don't say if among others, I would think so. - The fact is mentioned both in Stories and (shorter) in Publishing history, but I think it should stay, for readers who read only one of those. What do you think? Perhaps the details in Publications? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "published in 1915 in Leipzig" - Do we know which publication?
  • Several CN tags.
  • The line with the citation tag left (He viewed the work as "one of his most successful and perfect literary creations" which he was able to write in a "semi-unconscious state of mind.") is copied from the article on the story, without a source there. If we can't find a source, I suggest to drop the line, it's not adding too much. I could add the German original for the quotations from his diary "a complete opening of body and soul...), if wanted, Brod 1966, p.114. I confess that the summary of the story is so "too short" that nothing would almost be better, also it's like telling who the murderer is, you should read the story without knowing someone will commit suicide in the end, see next question ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:45, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why no synopsis of "The Judgment" when you have synopses for several of his other works?
  • Generally yes. Readers should not have to click through to see why someone is relevant to the subject at hand (i.e. when writing about Sukarno, I should note that Fatmawati was his [third] wife). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 22:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arkadia (Arkadia. Ein Jahrbuch für Dichtkunst.) - Don't think we need the full title.
  • Selbstwehr (Self-defense) - For a newspaper I don't think translating the title is necessary.
  • My impression of the works section so far (especially the novels) is that it's jumping every which way. You mention The Country Doctor in several paragraphs that are out of chronological order. I also note that these titles seem to be overlinked in places. The Metamorphosis, The Judgment, Amerika, A Hunger Artist...
 — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here I go again
  • "in their literary yearbook for the art poetry yearbook Arkadia" - Yearbook 2x?
  • That happened probably when the German title was translated, I vote for keeping it (see above) for those who appreciate a word like Dichtkunst. Removed the double for now, but think again about the other, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • First paragraph of #Publishing history reads like proseline. Any way to avoid this?
  • You have Betrachtung in both the first and second paragraph of this section. It's a little awkward, methinks.
  • This (Betrachtung) is not the (rather easy) case of a collection named after one part (As Der Landarzt, for example). It's two different sets of stories in different medium under the same name. If that is unclear we need to do something. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:50, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Short stories are generally in quotes. See "Indian Camp"
  • When Brod died - When?
  • Only Eva was still alive as of 2012. - Tense issues. "As of" would require the simple present, not the simple past.
  • Who are James Hawes, Milan Kundera, and the other named individuals?
  • A word or two would be greatly useful for the reader. For Kundera, "the Czech writer" would suffice.
  • Perhaps state explicitly if Bauer was the inspiration for "The Judgment" and these other stories, acting as a muse or whatnot.
    I don't think we can say "muse". Him meeting her and imagining to be engaged, certainly played a role - there's an engagement to "Frieda Brandenfeld" - but where and how to word that, in life or works, beyond what's said in the linked story? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps make the connection more explicit then. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Gerda that a chrono timeline would be even worse. Improvement to this layout welcome though. As for making the connection btwn Bauer and the writings more explicit, I'm not sure which passage you're talking about. Can you be more explicit? PumpkinSky talk 21:01, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Right now you have "On 13 August 1912, Kafka met Felice Bauer, a relative of Brod, ... Shortly after this, Kafka wrote the story Das Urteil (The Judgment) in only one night, and worked in a productive period on Der Verschollene (The Man Who Disappeared) and "Die Verwandlung" ("The Metamorphosis")." - This is implying a connection but it is not made explicit to the readers. Perhaps note if a character in "The Judgment" was based on Bauer. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:33, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not so much a character but the situration for Das Urteil. Verschollene and Verwandlung came around the same time but weren't inspired by her. Verwandlung was inspired by his family life/situation.PumpkinSky talk 00:16, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • specific remarks include....“breakthrough” work, " chaotic mix of paradoxes, its expressionistic style of narration, and its strange mixture of the wonderful with the everyday", "with a complete opening of body and soul,”, “frightful exertion and pleasure of experiencing how [the story] developed right in front of me.", " According to Kafka biographer Rainer Stach, Kafka’s enthusiastic view of the work, coupled with his detailed description of its creation, demonstrates its immense importance to him: this excitement contrasts markedly with the “despairingly uncertain” opinion he held of his earlier works", "perfect birth covered with dirt and slime", the story is about a man trying to break from his childhood who gets engaged to a girl also with initials FB, but fails in his clever writing is no replacement for personal conviction, all this parallels his letter relationship with Felice, and is another case of Kafka predicting his own future, ie, kafka the writer sees more honestly than Kafka the man, kafka the das urteil's hero are both men who are childlike but devilish, the phonetics of the hero and the fiancee and highly similar to kafka and felice, and the father/son are a lot like Kafka and his dad. I'm open to ideas on how best to deal with this one. PumpkinSky talk 02:26, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think you might be overthinking this one. The discussion of the story itself can (and should) be limited, with some of the less pertinent opinions in the article on the story. My question, if an answer is possible, is if Bauer influenced the story and, if so, how can we note this in the article? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • No doubt about that. With the refs already in the article, there's support for something that says Das Urteil's protagonist, Georg Bendemann, and his fiancee, Frieda Brandenfeld, are analogous/an allegory for Franz and Felice. PumpkinSky talk 02:42, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tried names (in Stories), at the same time changed summary of story from just mentioning the end. Should we mention that Kafka thought of "starke Ejakulation" (strong ejaculation) writing the last line, ending on "Verkehr" (traffic - intercourse). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps just "and dedicated it to Felice Bauer. Brod noted that the main characters may be allusions to Kafka and Bauer"
Leave the reasoning for the short story article per WP:UNDUE. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:03, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let me understand: that was only added because you asked, no? What exactly do you want then? "Muse" would certainly be wrong for that birth story. Mentioning that Kafka invented a man happily engaged (just after he met her) seems relevant to me. Please summarize the name/initials allusions, my English isn't up to it. (I will move the details to the story.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:08, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Leave Brod's reasoning for the other article. It enough to say that Brod suggested the main characters were allegories for Kafka and Bauer. Otherwise the paragraph will just swell up. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:15, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Character names. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:34, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to distinguish the character names from the real people, open to a better way of doing so, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:38, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Translations should be after the first use and not afterwards.
  • Stick to either the German name or the English name, don't switch between them (I see Das Schloss and The Castle, for example)
  • I like the original, also nothing was translated during Kafka's lifetime, but I have to admit that most English readers will be more familiar with the English titles, as bad as some are, including "The Metamorphosis", which would be a good translation of "Die Metamorphose", but not of "Die Verwandlung", --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:19, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brod's editions are usually called the Definitive Editions. - Editions ... editions. Also, by whom?
  • Marxists, for example, have sharply disagreed over how to interpret Kafka's works. - How?
  • Finishing...
  • so it is up to the resourceful translator to provide the reader with the same (or at least equivalent) effect found in the original text. - Resourceful translator? Rather POV, I think.
Agree, cut resourceful.PumpkinSky talk 09:56, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Franz Kafka Museum in Prague is dedicated to Kafka and his work. The museum began as an exhibit in Barcelona in 1999, moved to the Jewish Museum in New York City, and was finally established for the long term in 2005 in Malá Strana (Lesser Town), along the Vltava River (the Moldau), Prague. - Firstly, why link Barcelona and NYC which are major cities? Second, "finally established for the long term" sounds redundant. Perhaps formally inaugurated or something?
  • "The Franz Kafka Prize is an annual literary award of the Franz Kafka Society and the City of Prague established in 2001 to recognize the artwork's "humanistic character and contribution to cultural, national, language and religious tolerance, its existential, timeless character, its generally human validity, and its ability to hand over a testimony about our times"." - Huge (kafkaesque?) sentence, should be split.
  • "Say what you like, but The Trial is my greatest work, even greater than Citizen Kane", starring Anthony Perkins - Perkins looks like he was acting in Citizen Kane, according to this construct.
  • " The double meaning of 'Verkehr' is given added weight by Kafka's confession to Brod that when he wrote that final line, he was thinking of "a violent ejaculation""
  • Other prominent themes include alienation, physical and psychological brutality, characters on a terrifying quest, and mystical transformation. - Theme versus archetype again
  • a Kafka Project - "a Kafka project" would be general and require a small p. Perhaps "the Kafka project"?
  • Titles still are not standardised (all English with the German original once, or all German with the English translation once)
  • if possible point out where, and of course the normal German (English) has to change to English if we talk about English only Gerda Arendt (talk)
That's it from this peanut gallery — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:22, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Translation section: why this limited selection? No mention of many of his other works.
added: Parables and Paradoxes, biligual, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:48, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The exhibit itself is known as "The City of K. Franz Kafka and Prague". - According to whom? Also, didn't you just say this was a museum?
  • dropped "itself" - the collection started as an exhibit, as said above, which was housed in this museum. Should we say"is titled" (I guess it's the translation)? Gerda Arendt (talk)
  • editor Al Silverman - Editor of the newspaper?
  • He wrote in an aloof manner ... - Kafka, or Michel-André Bossy? Who is Bossy, anyways?
  • Perhaps make it more explicit that the last paragraph there is Bossy's opinion.
Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Featured_article_candidates/Franz_Kafka/archive1&oldid=1089831713"