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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.



Passed the ACR, accepting only 3 supports for passage in lieu of no opposes to the ACR. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s):   Cs32en Talk to me 


Prior nomination here.

I am nominating this article for A-Class review, as the Camp Chapman attack was one of the most important attacks against the United States Central Intelligence Agency. It is considered to be the most lethal attack against the CIA since the bombing of the CIA station in Beirut. The article has been reviewed by MBK004 (talk · contribs). I have nominated the article for A-Class before, and some problems have been fixed during the review process. However, as the review had not been completed within 28 days, the article has not been promoted at that point. In the mean time, some links for references have turned inoperative. I have removed these URLs, but left the references in the text. These sources were available online at the time the information has been used to write the article, and the sources should still be available off-line.  Cs32en Talk to me  20:33, 13 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the dead URLs, have you tried to find an archived page, such as Internet Archive? bahamut0013wordsdeeds 17:05, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your feedback! Yes, I did. For the press agency releases that have been available at the New York Times website, the search produces the message "We're sorry, access to http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/01/05/world/AP-ML-Jordan-CIA-Afghan-Attack.htm has been blocked by the site owner via robots.txt." The other links, which are Google cache results, do not seem to be available on the archive either. Sometimes, article titles change, and maybe there is a copy of one of the articles on the net somewhere. However, such copies may well be copyvios, so we couldn't link to them anyway.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:07, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Legal copies of some of the sources may exist at other news sites. For example, a copy of the AP release above seems to be available at FOX News. I'm going to look for further such copies in the next few days.  Cs32en Talk to me  01:14, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I have replaced the dead URLs with links to other websites. As these are all well-known reliable sources, we can probably assume that these are not copyvios.  Cs32en Talk to me  22:22, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments:
  • no dab links, external links work, alt text is present (no action required);
 Fixed (Nothing to do.)  Cs32en Talk to me  10:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • images seem correctly licenced (no action required);
 Fixed (Nothing to do.)  Cs32en Talk to me  10:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • there is a mixture of terminology, sometimes you use "Camp Chapman", at other times "Forward Operating Base Chapman", these should be consistent;
 Done I have changed the term "Camp" to "Forward Operating Base" in the text. Reliable sources use both terms, but this is the official name of the compound.  Cs32en Talk to me  10:10, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • there are a few contractions, e.g. "wasn't" and "doesn't" which should be reworded unless they are in direct quotes;
 Done I have expanded the contractions.  Cs32en Talk to me  10:19, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your feedback and advice! I'll address the issues in the next few days. As I'm not a native English speaker (neither US nor British), I may need some help with regard to the last item in the list. I'll try to check the article for possible problems in that respect, and list them here if I'm not sure what action to take.  Cs32en Talk to me  19:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've rectified any examples I could find of British English (except in the titles of sources, where they should stay as is). I think I got them all. Regards. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:37, 31 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Fixed (No further action required.)  Cs32en Talk to me  10:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I've expanded the lead.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Question: In some cases, the content of short paragraphs cannot be merged with other paragraphs, because it refers to a different aspects of the topic of the respective section. It also cannot be extended, either because that would give undue weight to its content, or because there is no additional verifiable information available. In these cases, I have rather left the short paragraphs in the text. I would suggest to discuss this problem on a paragraph-by-paragraph basis, so that the best action can be taken with regard to each case.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Fixed (Probably no further action necessary.) I have grouped some more short paragraphs into longer paragraphs (i.e. in the lead). In my view, the length of the paragraphs in the current version is appropriate. I would revisit the issue, of course, if there are concerns about this aspect of the article.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I've changed some instances in which "publisher" had been used instead of "journal". All names of journals should now appear in italics.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:02, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have done some minor restructuring with regard to some paragraphs and sub-sections.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Two suggestions, (1) you could write a quick stub for chemical fingerprint, or (2) just pipe the link, as per what I have done here: chemical fingerprint. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Question: In this instance, piping the link may be understood to suggest that the U.S. Bomb Data Center would be somehow involved in this, or that methods used by that institution would have been used. I have replaced "chemical fingerprint" with "chemical composition". While that may be a weaker term than "chemical fingerprint", referring to explosives tracers, or analysis of isotopes, may well be exagerrating what the claim actually is about, so it's better to err on the side of caution here. Is that change appropriate, in your view?  Cs32en Talk to me  15:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In this case I'd suggest just using whatever the exact term in the source may be, otherwise we are providing our on interpretation which might not necessarily be correct. My own understanding of the concept of chemical fingerprint is limited, so I'm not really sure, sorry. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:16, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it back from "chemical composition" to "chemical fingerprint" (without the red link). "Chemical fingerprint" is a colloquial term that is being used to describe the contents of a mixture of chemicals, and may include their relative shares in the substance. Often, the focus is not only on the main components, but also on traces or by-products from the production of the substance. I have not included that section into the article, and the content is based on two sources that may well have a an anti-Pakistani (pro-India in the case of ANI, pro-Russia in the case of Posner) slant. So I would also agree to remove that section. If we would start a discussion on removing the section, we should inform the editor who added the content, however.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:46, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Henry A. Crumpton is a redlink in some other articles, too. I have therefore retained the redlink in this article.  Cs32en Talk to me  11:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Fixed (No further action required, as this appears to be uncontroversial.)  Cs32en Talk to me  22:05, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support TomStar81 (Talk) 14:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—A1, citation presentation quality: Pedantic nitpickery: "The Times (London)." No, just no. Oxford: Oxford University Press makes sense, they publish through New York as well. The Times is simply that newspaper which is published in London called The Times, it requires no appellations of location as all other newspapers called simply The Times must clarify that they are not The Times. Feel free to ignore. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A bot has added this to the article. It also changed some other references, in this article, as well as in other articles. If the link doesn't work, i.e. on a print-out of the page, it may be helpful to have the precise information that this is The Times, published in London, and not The Times, published elsewhere. But this seems to be a far-fetched justification for the addition.  Cs32en Talk to me  08:09, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for explaining, do you remember the bot's name so I can go have words with it? Fifelfoo (talk) 08:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the diff of the edit.  Cs32en Talk to me  13:39, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I've chased down the cause of this. Readers may be interested in Template_talk:Cite_news#Proposed_modification_of_Template_documentation_in_relation_to_The_Times Fifelfoo (talk) 14:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
 Done I've removed the location from references to The Times of London. (Let's see whether the bot will add them back or not.)  Cs32en Talk to me  22:16, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I picked up a couple of points that might be worth considering if you intend to take it further (ie FAC):
  • Why does the background section come after the information about the attack rather than before it?
Thank you for your suggestions on improving the article! I don't know whether there is any policy or guideline on the ordering of sections (i.e. based on content, not formal considerations). My viewpoint is that Wikipedia is not a history textbook, and many people would know at least some of the background. They would probably be more interested in the specific event. Placing the background first also may introduce a tendency to present the text like a story. But if it's well done, it may work.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would it be possible to apply summary style more robustly to trim down the amount of content in some areas?
Some content has been outsourced, and it's probably possible to relegate more content to sub-articles. This may also be possible with regard to the background section. I basically haven't touch those articles that are related to the background section. Also, as these related articles are not subarticles, the content in this article is an excerpt of relevant content rather than a summary of these other articles. I would prefer to leave the article as it is, for the time being. There have been some controversial discussions about a number of minor changes to the article, and the stability of the current version indicates that the current version, while not perfect, proabably addresses all legitimate viewpoints and concerns about the content.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:39, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
However, I believe this interesting and well-researched article meets our current A-Class criteria. Nice job :) EyeSerenetalk 08:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your positive assessment of the article! Taking the article to an FAC nomination, however, may well be a major challenge, given the scarcity of (well-researched) sources, as well as images, about the event.  Cs32en Talk to me  23:48, 11 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article no longer meets A-Class criteria - Sturmvogel 66 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 23:07, 14 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Nominator(s): Lineagegeek (talk)

102d Intelligence Wing (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Reviewing this article to determine the accuracy of a bot generated request to review links, I noted that several paragraphs lack references (partly, not entirely, due to link rot), so the article no longer meets even B Class criteria). It, therefore, needs a new review. --Lineagegeek (talk) 21:20, 9 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: I made a few tweaks to try to rectify some of the issues that I found, but unfortunately can't help with other aspects. If these can be rectified, I am of the opinion that the article could retain its A-class status, otherwise it should unfortunately be demoted: AustralianRupert (talk) 13:00, 10 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • there are numerous paragraphs that do not end in references, which is as noted above the main issue for this article to overcome
  • in the References, the Williams source - is there a specific article within the journal that relates to the unit? If so, this should be added to the citation
  • what makes the Middleton website reliable?
  • for the Rogers citation (currently # 16) is there a page number that could be added?
  • currently, I think the article potentially has too much room devoted to the 9/11 incident, when compared to the space devoted to other topics, so I think it might be best to reduce this a little
  • "File:Too-102fw.jpg": is there a link to a website where this was obtained from? Currently the only source is "US Defense Department".

Comments

  • History:
"The 102d Intelligence Wing traces its roots to the 318th Fighter Group" The cited source does not support this statement (and without an idea of what "traces its roots" means it may be inaccurate. The 318th Fighter Group became the 102d Fighter Group, which is not the 102d wing, but a subordinate unit. The article as a whole confuses the group and the wing and compounds it by stating that the wing was also "previously the 69th Fighter Wing". Later the articles refers to the 67th Fighter Wing, but the three fighter units were not assigned to it, but to the 102d Fighter Group. One of the squadrons as well as other units listed are not supported by the cited reference (probably in part because one fighter squadron was in the Connecticut National Guard and the source is a Massachusetts National Guard website). This kind of sloppiness permeates the article. I question whether either B1 or B2 would pass a B class review.
"Guard units were generally neglected . . . Not supported by cited source (although this could be edited to do so)
Although the MA ANG wasn't mobilized for the Korean War. Per source cited, elements of it were, but not the 102d Wing (which was only established in 1950), so this is extraneous information. --Lineagegeek (talk) 00:17, 17 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, leaning to delist/demote -- I concur that without reliable sourcing for the uncited elements this can't remain A-Class, and since there's still a lot outstanding after almost three weeks (the USAF isn't my area of expertise unfortunately) I don't hold out much hope for this one... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:51, 26 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't think even one book from in the Bibliography section was ever referenced in the text. Please either change that section header to "Further reading", or delete the section. I very strongly urge the latter, since we have little way of knowing whether these sources provide meaningful amounts of useful/relevant information.  Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:53, 7 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Nominator(s): Marcd30319 (talk)


I am nominating this article for A-Class review because USS Triton (SSRN-586) has successfully received an A-Class review and since the core Operation Sandblast was originally part of this USS Triton article and had gone through a previous GA review together as a single article, it is my belief that this Operation Sandblast will meet the same criteria as an A-Class article, and serve as a complement to its parent article on the USS Triton. Therefore, based on my previous experience on the A-Class assessment review of the USS Triton article, I have endeavored to avoid over-linking, I believe that my sourcing to be reliable, there are no disambig links, there are no re-directs, and alt text for all images have been duly incorporated. Thank you and I look forward to our collaboration. Marcd30319 (talk) 19:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comments
    • No problems reported with dab links. A number of external links are identified as suspicious, including at least one link reported as dead, please check and advise. One image icon is missing alt text, please add this to the article forthwith.
    • If I recall correctly, we have a operation template you may consider using for the article, it should allow for a basic summary of the operation, its duration, and other details of this nature. I will not count this suggestion against you should you decide to refrain from using it.
    • There are no links to anything in the initial opening paragraphs, may I suggest adding a few?
    • There are still some short sections in the article, it would be a good idea to see about some consolidation of these sections.
    • Was there any particular reason for choosing sandblast as the codename? The article does not say, but I am curious.
      • Captain Beach was also curious about how the Navy Department came up with the code name of Sandblast for the circumnavigation mission. It was explained to him that taking his ship around the world submerged would "take a lot of sand" on the crew's part to be successful. Also, Sandblast would serve as Beach's personal code name. As the captain noted: ""Most beaches are full of sand, I was informed." See Captain Beach's account, p. 44. This seemed rather challenging to capture. At least with Operation Sunshine, there was a certain perverse logic in using that as the code name for the first submerged voyage under the North Pole. Marcd30319 (talk) 22:48, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • In my opinion, the quotes in the article could be trimmed even further, but I am going to wait and see what others think about the presence of the quotes before I decide whether or not to make an issue out of this. As a practical matter, I can understand the importance of the quotes to the article, hence my decision for a second opinion on the matter. Note that this comments is limited to the presence of the block quotes in the article only.
      • I will certainly like to hear back about this. I tried to keep the quotes to a minimum, but this is a highly personal story for all involved, and I also wanted to use the boxed quote for each section to set the appropriate tone for that section.
    • How do you extract oxygen from seawater? The article doesn't say, but I am curious.
    • Do the SSBN's making use of the Polaris missile have a name? I suspect these are probably George Washington or Ethan Allen boats, but a specific sub class mention would be nice.
    • Prior to the awarding of the PUC to Triton, which other boat received the PUC for peacetime ops?
    • Otherwise it looks good. Well done! TomStar81 (Talk) 21:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Understand your reasoning there even if I don't like the crew list - I will deal with my issues with the crew list through that article GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Significant post-1960 naval circumnavigations: My intent was to show other naval circumnavigations, not just submerged ones. By that criteria, only the Soviet entry would be apropos. The 2003 around the world voyage by the Chinese PLA Navy showed the growing Chinese naval activity on the world stage and enhanced ts prestige. Ditto the Indian and Australian naval circumnavigations around the world. The UNITAS exercises promoted regional goodwill while circumnavigating South America. Ditto the PLAN's 1997 circumnavigation of the Pacific. I spent a considerable amount of time researching this. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That would belong under topics relating to naval power - which is why I deleted those entries.GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Quotations. You've got centred quotes in boxes, centured quotes without boxes, italicised quotes, non-italicised quotes, and one quote on the left side in large quote (") marks. I think the formatting of the various quotations in the article should be standardised (unless there is some method to the madness I've missed in my quick glance at the article). -- saberwyn 23:09, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Centered quotes in boxes: These are used to introduce each main section and set the tone therein. Marcd30319 (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Centured quotes without boxes: Quotes from Captain Beach's book, the published log book, or Captain Beach's preface to Dr. Weybrew's book. Essentially, anything that has been published.
    • Italicised quotes: Used for official or institutional citation (i.e., Presidential Unitation Citatio, Legion of Honor, and honorary Sc.D). Marcd30319 (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
MoS says italics in quotes only where present in originalGraemeLeggett (talk) 10:08, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

General Request: TonStar81, is there a way of sectioning off comments so they can be addressed on a more individualized way? Otherwise, we are going to generate an ever-expanding laundry list of comments and responses that will make it increasingly difficult to address outstanding issues or come to a common consensus. Also, it will make it easier to type responses since the frame jumps as I type, and I have difficulty keeping track of my responses. I am sure other are experiencing this, too. Thanks! Marcd30319 (talk) 23:57, 20 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately Marc, we frown upon using section headers in ACRs unlike our peer reviews. We could encourage editors to use {{collapse}} when their concerns have been addressed which would help. -MBK004 00:05, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What would the problem be, as long as they are 4th-level (====) headers? This is really confusing. —Ed (talkmajestic titan) 02:35, 21 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that we copied our ACR list from the FAC example, so our ACRs - including this one - are listed in the same way that FACs are on a project review page. Adding the headers to the ACRs makes a long page even longer and can disrupt parts of the reviewing operations here and there, which is why we do not permit the headers at the ACR level. The solution here, as it is at FAC, is to use the boxes to hide the addressed comments. Try not to look at this as a hinderence, instead look at it from the perspective that anything worth having is worth working for. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:41, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments


Round 2 Review Comments
I have endeavored to capture the following issues:

Unless it is directly related to Op Sandblast (ie submarine activities), the section should be more concise. the list of ports visited is excessive, the ships officers are not relevant within the section either especially as there is an article on the USN activity. As for the Soviet subs, that is more relevant though again excessive detail and a strange bunching of refs at the end of the paragraph.GraemeLeggett (talk) 15:55, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I propose that this section be re-branded 1966 Soviet submarine global circumnavigation and fold the rest of this section into Operation Sea Orbit.Marcd30319 (talk) 16:47, 23 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Round 3 Review Comments
What is the current status of this review, and what outstanding issues remain to be resolved? Marcd30319 (talk) 13:59, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support - I see nothing that should prevent this article from being an A-Class article in my opinion. -MBK004 06:40, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: Looks like a very good article in my opinion. I just have a couple of very minor points. I am supporting because everything else looks fine to, but I request that you fix or consider fixing these before taking to FAC.
    • the lead looks like it is five paragraphs, but I think that there is a requirement for it to be no more than four paragraphs;
    • According to the cite error tool, this ref might need to be consolidated per WP:NAMEDREFS: "First Submerged Circumnavigation 1960, p. B-5.", can you please check?
    • you appear to have spaced emdashes, but per WP:DASH they should be unspaced. For instance in the "Mission history — Around the world submerged 1960" section header and in the block quote;
    • in relation to the comment about emdashes, in the Destination: Cape Horn section you use spaced endashes (sentence beginning "On 3 March..."). Consistency is required with the dashes, either use all spaced endashes, or all unspaced emdashes, please;
    • in the Destination:Cape Horn section you use the contraction "didn't", could you please replace the contraction with the full word as the contraction makes it sound a little unencyclopedic in my opinion.

Anyway that is it from me. Good work. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 09:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.