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April 19

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TV episode forks

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete all ^demon[omg plz] 18:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Little Einsteins episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:M*A*S*H episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Infobox Blackadder episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Desperate Housewives episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Infobox DuckTales episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:SATC episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Adventures of Super Mario Bros. 3 episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Super Mario World episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

added to nomination

Template:B5 episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Infobox The West Wing episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

All redundant with {{Infobox Television episode}}. None require a fork at all. Consistency is our friend, and it smells of professionalism. — The JPStalk to me 19:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It can use {{television colour}} but in this case i don't think it's very useful for most of these series. SATC and desperate housewives use it though I believe. --TheDJ (talkcontribsWikiProject Television) 11:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. WoohookittyWoohoo! 07:23, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Infobox 30 Rock episode (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This showspecific template does nothing that the {{Infobox Television episode}} can not do as well. I'm currently undoing the replacement of this template in the 30 rock episode articles --TheDJ (talkcontribsWikiProject Television) 18:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was keep. I think we need to wait until the passion simmers down a bit before deciding whether this should go. Simply too early. WoohookittyWoohoo! 07:33, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Virginia Tech massacre (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Given that the two unnecessary extra articles will soon be merged into the main article i see no reason to keep this template. To keep it would only serve to relate the individuals mentioned to this topic top to the massace and given that it has been arguesd there are reasons beyond that they should be kept, we definetly should not do this. — Jimmi Hugh 15:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep let's see how the main page matures and whether new sub-pages will be created --TheFEARgod (Ч) 15:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I'll have to agree. At this moment, there are pages that are probably going to be deleted, and the other 3 below are of three teachers who were killed whose notability is questioned. It's a good attempt at linking together various pages, but at a time when the pages are questioned, it doesn't seem appropriate. Jaredtalk15:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Nomination reasoning is speculative. Valid navigation aid. If enough sub-articles go away then it may be time to remove template, but not trying to predict what will happen later. --StuffOfInterest 15:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep --[[user:Umedard|Umedard [[User talk:Umedard|<sup>Talk</sup>]]]] 16:37, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Per StuffOfInterest, valid navigation aid, and seems too soon to delete it. --Falcorian (talk) 15:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. It's not really useful.
  • Delete, not nearly enough links yet to justify existence. Maybe in time, but right now it's ugly and takes up room. (That is by far the worst map that could have ever been made of the mid-Atlantic, the FBI should be ashamed) --Golbez 15:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above Wyv 15:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. There's not enough content on the massacre to justify a bulky infobox; for now, "main article" hatnotes and "see also" links are sufficient. Krimpet (talk/review) 15:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the template and sub-articles are noteworthy enough to keep, in my opinion. --JAYMEDINC 15:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - while I disagree fundamentally with the premise of nominator's argument (in fact consensus seems to be exactly the opposite at the moment), I don't see the value of this template. HokieRNB 16:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - seems useful to me, has all the articles in one place --AW 16:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per all. Slade (TheJoker) 16:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. Valid navigation aid, will likely become even more so as the details of this tragedy continue. Realkyhick 16:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep despite that fact that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball I think it is safe to assume that the coverage of this event is going to only grow larger and break-away articles are going to become more numerous which therefore will render this template very useful. (Netscott) 16:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment Why would you predict more breach of Wikipedia Policy? I think you underestimate people's want to make this a nice clean site. Therefore assuming good faith, this template is redundent. --Jimmi Hugh 16:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Already usefull, and will probably grow in the coming weeks, don't be rash. And Jimmi Hugh's reasons are flawed, as commented already, as they may very well continue to stand as their own articles. Epson291 16:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - The argument for deleting this ("the two unnecessary extra articles will soon be merged into the main article") is both incorrect and premature. All of the important discussions (1, 2, 3, 4) look extremely likely to end in "keep" or "no consensus". And, Jimmi Hugh, "good faith" and "will agree with me" are not equivalent. -- Plutor talk 16:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - it's way too early to make a whole template on this event. Maybe in time, once an investigation has been carried out. I think it's a little premature. - Prezboy1 16:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - While tragic, it is largely the "media event of the week". Over time, this will fade as much as Columbine did; it will only be brought up as an example for comparison in future mass shootings. The entire event isn't complicated enough to merit its own template, nor is it general enough. Maybe an argument could be made for a "mass murder" template or similar? UltraNurd 16:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Subst and delete - There's an implicit POV issue, and something inherently distasteful, about the "Notable Victims" subtitle. What we really mean (I assume) is "Victims whose biographies were found to meet the current criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia", but that isn't really the same thing. In any other article where the template is used, the same issue will come up. It is very easy to work the existing Wikilinks into the text of an article or list of victims, but I don't see a clear and respectful way to do it in a template of that size. Nor do I see any real need for a pseudo-table of contents for other subtopics in this article, when there is already an established way to have a table of contents. Mike Serfas 17:09, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I for one find it useful. --It's-is-not-a-genitive 17:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep — the proposal is speculative and does not follow Wikipedia guidelines. — Jonathan Bowen 17:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - the template is useful in pointing to other articles. MCalamari 17:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Delete per later comment I make below. Vital navigation source; proposal for deletion speculates on page merges in ongoing AfD discussions, & concensus does not seem to be going the way the proposer assumes they will. The template itself is still subject to modification if it's kept, so questions about POV etc. within the template can be addressed in discussion about template design. --Yksin 17:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment. However, I do find it tasteless & insensitive to include this template in the articles for those victims who were notable enough to warrant their own pages. --Yksin 17:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - Even if they are notable in their own right, they are and always will be closely associated with this incident. Still, that debate is best held on the individual bio talk pages and on the template talk page. --StuffOfInterest 17:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I've made the point on the relevant talk pages, including the talk page for the template itself. Meanwhile, because of the offensiveness of the template being used on those pages, the POV nature of the "Victims of the massacre with their own pages" section, & the brevity of the navigation box without it, I've changed my vote to "Delete." --Yksin 18:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now, and maybe relist in two weeks' time. A lot depends on the fate of the articles involved. If they are all kept, then the template helps to organize them. YechielMan 06:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I'm on it...! Jaredtalk14:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. South Korean flag sounds like a bad idea. It would make it seem as if S. Korea sanctioned the attack, as opposed to some nut job who happened to be from S. Korea did it. That'd be inappropriate. After all, S. Korea specifically stated their regret (along with the rest of the world) and that's just provocative.Motor.on 16:20, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, wait and see how this all turns out. This VfD is premature. --CalPaterson 17:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete A category is good enough. But the picture is cool, put it on the VTM page! JeffBurdges 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Based on the premise that we don't have similar infoboxes for Columbine or Jonestown. The articles themselves, particularly the ones on the shooter and Prof. Librescu obviously pass the notability test, but does that mean we need an infobox linking them? I agree that a category is probably sufficient.Pat Payne 18:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move for speedy close without prejudice - I don't care any more if we keep the thing or delete it - any uninvolved admin should use their best judgment to decide. But these articles are all high visibility and we ought to keep xFD templates off of them for a couple of weeks. If a discussion is absolutely necessary, we can link to it from Talk:Virginia Tech massacre and hundreds or thousands of editors are going to see it - plenty for a consensus. If it's something minor like this, there's no real harm one way or the other in having the template and I would ask that an uninvolved admin make a determination and close this TFD, without prejudice to revisiting the issue in a month. --BigDT (416) 18:47, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Jared, template already available: infobox terrorist attack. Plus, all this attention given to the perpetrator only makes other crazy people think this is the way to achieve fame, like that NASA guy. --Rita Moritan 19:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete This is one horrible, unfortunate incident, but one incident, all of the hype in the media and here IS EXCESSIVE, and certainly not a broad enough topic to merit a template box. And there, I just added to the excess, are you happy now? Fredwerner 20:49, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Delete per Fredwerner. The incident was unfortunate but the shear number of related articles doesn't even cross 2 digits. For those saying it should be kept to see what happens to it with time, please see WP:NOT#CRYSTALBALL.--Scheibenzahl 21:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep (temporary) This topic is relevant as of now, and being that Wikipedia is there to change with the times, this template to link between the pages could be kept up for easy access for those in grief, those doing current event reports, and other groups trying to piece things together. Staying now and deleted later could be an option. --ForumYoshi 22:04, 20 April 2007
  • Keep as per ForumYoshi. Qjuad 23:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per qjuad.Bakaman 23:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Premature. Useful now. Proposal presumes the template cannot be edited. Likely to get re-created if deleted. -- Yellowdesk 00:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but there can definitely be debate about its content. gren グレン 02:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - completely unnecessary. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 03:54, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional keep - IF most of the articles end up being merged into one, then delete. Otherwise, keep. --AEMoreira042281 15:29, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep since if it's not spam and has SOME use, it should be kept. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ihitterdal (talkcontribs) 15:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • delete omg too soon. people are emotionally keeping this. SchmuckyTheCat 17:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep SVRTVDude (Yell | Toil) 17:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, leaning for temp. KEEP w/ eventual DELETE I love templates as much as the next guy. I am also very saddened by this tragic event. However, there is already a category for all of the articles relating to the event. It is said that a template such as this one should be easier to navigate than a category, and I do not think this is the current case with this template, since I find it easier to use categories. Moreover, it is also said that: it can be difficult to give more detail than a category can give without the box becoming unmanageably large. However, instead of being unmanageably large, it is rather small, and I think the category gives a better view of the entire spectrum of the issue. However, adding to what ForumYoshi said, the template is probably useful to people who are not familiar with Wikipedia, but are using the site to learn more about the event. I remember when I started using Wikipedia, categories were intimidating things... --wpktsfs 19:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete now - No need to wait; delete it now. It's overkill. Looking at the template, all I see is a map and four links. We can easily put that in a series of "see also" links. Also, the template gives a feeling that Wikipedia is "exploiting" the event for its own gain, and it invokes a message like "Come here to Wikipedia, where we will give you 24/7 follow-up info on this tragic shooting"; this is not the point of Wikipedia. Finally, the truth is the media will stop caring in six months. We cannot allow templates like this to be created that will be deleted in six months' time. bCube(talk,contribs); 19:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Info not needing template box ipridian 20:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Keep Some readers prefer to naviagate through categories, some through templates. I see no reason not to accommodate both. As for notability, we cannot decide that now; look in six months, and see if this as notable a meme as Columbine. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I don't see a problem with it. Makes it a lot easier to navigate through the massacre if you want to read about itNiyant 23:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This doesn't need a template; there isn't one for Columbine, or Erfurt, or for École Polytechnique. dcandeto 06:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Goes beyond "not useful" into "counterproductive" territory. There aren't enough articles in about the subject to justify the navigation template (and, God willing, there will be fewer as emotions simmer down and extraneous articles get merged out of existence), and it takes up valuable space in the page layout that could be used for, I dunno, germane text or images or something else relevant. Is there such a thing as "navtemplatecruft?" --Dynaflow 07:19, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, as there simply are not enough articles to justify its existence. Navigational templates are nice, but when all the articles are already intertwined together with internal links, they become redundant. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 08:44, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Please note, if you go back to the original version of this template, it was intended to provide links for the core articles and notable victims who have articles. If you take just the professors, then we have about eight total articles. If it is decided that the template will not represent, nor be used in, the victims who have articles then even I, the original creator, feel that the need is borderline. Scope is the determining factor in my book. --StuffOfInterest 11:53, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Delete, and in fact, based on the amount of votes for deletion, coupled with the unprofessional appearance of said box, and its overall lack of necessity, I feel justified in removing it anyway. How much more consensus doth one need? Scientz 21:10, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - Could you please explain how your math shows a concensus for delete? My quick head count showed about 43 keep and 36 delete. I'm curious how you weighted and/or discounted opinions to get to your conclusion. Also, it semes like you are trying to affect the change before concensus is established by removing the template from articles while it is still under discussion. Thanks. --StuffOfInterest 16:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment - Quite obviously because I can't count. My problem is with the poor design of the template, not necessarily with its mere existence. That said, I think that those who wish to see it included should take an effort to make it something worth inclusion, rather than the (admittedly POV) eyesore that it is. As I don't see a reason for its existence in the first place, I won't endeavour to improve it; however others obviously disagree, and therefore I wonder why it is they don't spruce it up. As is, it is an extremely ugly and pointless waste, buried 2/3rds of the way into the article. Scientz 14:33, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Comment - I actually believed my original version was pretty clean and simple. There was some debate later on the image, but with the deletion discussion ongoing I didn't want to introduce too much volatility into the template. Once this discussion is settled, presuming the template is kept, then a deeper discussion can be held on the template talk page regarding what to include and how to best present it. --StuffOfInterest 14:57, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, there's nothing useful here that isn't already in the article proper. As Krimpet said, "main article" hatnotes and "see also" links are sufficient. coelacan04:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'd like to strengthen my delete vote above by pointing out that this template is being used on the pages of otherwise notable people who died, thus placing undue weight & distorting otherwise notable articles. Please remove it from those articles if you see find it there. A category is more tasteful. As I see it this template can be used on at most four articles, main, timelines, victims list, and the killer. 4 pages can't really justify the template. JeffBurdges 21:07, 23 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - Useful navigation aid for a significant event in American history. Perhaps it could be made more colourful, however. Cool BlueLight my Fire! 00:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete plainly un-necessary.--cj | talk 09:54, 24 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Most of the pages this could/is used on will soon be deleted or merged with the main article. -Mschel 01:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Unnecessary. --Tone 12:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - some users get a little too excited when something happens, trying to be the first to add it to Wiki. The event doesn't need a template. ALTON .ıl 02:44, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Retract my statement. Some users get a little too excited to vote for deletion. ALTON .ıl 03:02, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. WoohookittyWoohoo! 07:38, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Cite email (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Is made for unpublished emails (no URL to published mail archive can be given). Seems to grossly violate WP:V. Displays posters mail address in article so they risk spam. Few current uses. See reference 4 in Pennsylvania Route 145 for example of use to reference 4 statements. Deletion discussed on template talk page in 2006. — PrimeHunter 14:30, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. This template, while it may seem a little iffy, is actually useful. How do you cite something if what you did to locate the information was e-mail the editor of a newspaper, or something to that effect? That is how this comes in handy, and people just have to know to use it properly. Realistically, it won't be used that often, but when it needs to be, it's nice to know it's there. Jaredtalk14:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. This template encourages original research and does indeed violate WP:V. Books can be gotten from libraries. Web pages can be viewed. Private emails, however, are not published documents. If someone does publish email correspondence on the web, then it's a web site and we have existing templates we handle that just fine. Mackensen (talk) 14:40, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Well, if you are just saying that e-mail is hearsay, then what about citing a television program, or a professor, or any other unconventional means that MLA gives citation guides for. If MLA allows it, we certainly should. Jaredtalk14:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, I'm saying that there's no way to verify it. MLA has guidelines for everything under the sun, but there's a difference between that and what Wikipedia is prepared to accept as a reliable source. How I can demand to see a private email to verify its contents? Or listen to a remark that a professor made than never got recorded. Now, a television program I might be able to verify, if it was recorded or its contents were reported on. MLA is not an encyclopedia and we aren't a standards body or a professional association. Mackensen (talk) 15:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're confusing wikipedia with the real world. In the real world, Carl Bernstein can write a book about political intrigue and cite confidential sources and personal email. If the lawyers for his publisher are concerned, they can privately double-check these sources, but ordinary readers can not, we have to take Bernstein's word for it (which, since he has a long record as a journalist, is not an unreasonable thing to ask). Wikipedia is quite different. We do not expect readers to accept as accurate statements made by pseudonymous editors like "Radiant!" or "Mangojuice." We require that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Private e-mail fails this test, and as Doc said, if it is published, cite the published record. Thatcher131 15:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The post referred to above is this one. While I understand the reasons, I disagree. If an already-sourced fact is verified as true via e-mail, the existing source should be left in and there is no reason to add a new one. If an already-sourced fact is contradicted via e-mail, the text should be removed, and no source is necessary for this. An explanation on the talk page may be required, but we don't generally use citation templates for those. JulesH 08:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Every source on Wikipedia does indeed need to pass WP:V, David. Which ones don't, in your view? Primary sources discussed by secondary sources are fine, for example; in fact, that's probably most of what we publish. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:06, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was deleted. It was only a joke. >Radiant< 07:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(The warning was a funny one however, and I thought the ridiculous level of seriousness in the nomination would shine through, which it apparently didn't. The template can be viewed at BJAODN here. Sjakkalle (Check!) 08:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC))[reply]

I am hesitant about nominating this template for deletion, becuase the creator is one of our most experienced administrators and has a very good grasp on what kind of pages should be in Wikipedia, and what kind of things should not, and who has logged a lot of edits on the TFD pages. I trust his good judgment. However I think this template, while a well-intentioned attempt at preventing disruption to the main page, is a poor idea.

First off, the only people capable of deleting pages are administrators, who are in most cases regular contributors. With that in mind, the WP:JERRYSPRINGER essay warning against using warning message templates on the regulars. Second, we have the troubling wording "have been considered unhelpful or unconstructive and have been undeleted or undone." This is of the greatest concern, because admins are supposed to discuss undeletions with the deleting admin before doing so, not after. This is very important in the interests of preventing wheel-warring. Keep in mind that the main page may have been deleted for good cause (vandal images, or unintentional libellous information in the DYK section for example). Finally, I question the need for a template like this. Mistaken deletions of the main page are in fact a rare occurence, even though a disgruntled administrator did so recently, and in most of those cases I think a customised message will suffice. Newbies testing the edit tools and/or vandalizing are a common occurence, justifying the presence of templates like {{test}} and {{blanking}}, but I feel the scope that this template intends to serve is too limited in nature, and will wind up as an unused and redundant warning message, leading to clutter on our table of user-talkpage warnings.

If this template is kept however, I recommend changing the lead sentence which currently reads "Welcome to Wikipedia", since admin-talkpages usually already have a welcome message of some sort on them. (I have realized that the talkpage of several regular contributors, including my own, don't have a welcome message however, so it's not a big deal). Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was userfy. WoohookittyWoohoo! 07:51, 27 April 2007 (UTC) Textbook polemic userbox, either userfy or delete--VectorPotentialTalk 11:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
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The result of the debate was Keep ~ AGK 18:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC) Unnecessary, redundant with existing merge templates, and created for pushing one's opinion in a particular dispute. The suggestion that a page should be renamed to be merged, or should be merged to be renamed, is an unnecessary legalistic combination, i.e. m:instruction creep. >Radiant< 10:57, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, Perfectly logical template particularly in view of the WP:ATT situation where this type of tag would have been extremely useful as the idea of merging pages like Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Reliable sources (to tag those pages) was under consideration prior to the necessity of the poll about the issue. (Netscott) 11:16, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, ATT was deliberately done in a different way to avoid confusion. So no, this would not have been useful. It's cute how you presuppose that the ATT poll was a necessity, considering it did not in fact resolve anything. >Radiant< 11:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only thing a poll "resolves" is what a given state of consensus on an issue is... the Wikipedia:Attribution poll did that extremely well by demonstrating that the state of consensus on the merging idea was that there wasn't one. (Netscott) 11:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hardly. As Kim said, "someone asked the entire community, most of whom don't care; and now they feel compelled to randomly make up an opinion very much on the fly, on a relatively short time scale". >Radiant< 11:27, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • About as telling as the fact that you did not. But of course this isn't about ATT at all, where this template wasn't used; this is about you creating it for pushing your opinion in another dispute, namely that renaming a page should be a contingency or rider for merging a page. Such contingencies are m:instruction creep. >Radiant< 11:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is perfectly normal to inform editors coming to that page of discussions about the complete merge idea (which given the current level of support for it looks reasonable enough). But again, this is beyond the scope of this discussion. Oh and I did not vote because I don't particularly feel strongly about the idea either way (I do prefer the "punch" of single distinct policy pages however). (Netscott) 11:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you don't particularly feel strongly about the idea why in the living fuck have you been edit warring about it across multiple wikis for weeks? —Cryptic 11:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to {{merge}}. I swear I have seen a template like this in Category:Merge templates, but apparently not. There are way too many already, so I volunteer to merge them into a minimal set of intuitive templates with optional parameters. The intended function of this particular template is definitely a possible case for merging, and it'd be instruction creep to use both {{merge}} on the article and {{move}} on the talk page. Please take the tag dispute back to talk pages. –Pomte 17:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Seems that in certain situations, this could easily be a good way to solve any smoldering arguments, as well as cut down on garbage articles. If necessary, two articles can easily be merged into one at several different points. Just surf around the site for awhile, and you'll soon be able to find this template useful at some point. Jmlk17 19:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep it seems useful enough. 70.55.85.67 07:00, 22 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Pokemon specific deletion templates

[edit]
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. WoohookittyWoohoo! 07:58, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Poke-nsd (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Poke-nrd (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:Poke-no source (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Template:PokeImageNR (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

These are (thankfully) not used and wholly redundant wit the generic {{nsd}}, {{nrd}} etc. There is no good reason to further complicate an already backlogged process by introducing Wikiproject specific forks of all sorts of deletion templates with accompanying categories. It doesn't matter if it's a picture of a Pokemon or not, all images without source or fair use rationales are treated equaly and should be listed in one place for easy processing. --Sherool (talk) 08:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete // Pilotguy radar contact 12:30, 28 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:Banknotes.com-image (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

According to the copyright disclaimer of the website, we do not have permission to us his images at all. The terms he gave is pretty much "No Rights Reserved." User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 05:34, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep The copyright disclaimer claims rights that the site owner does not in fact have, at least not under US law. Scans of 2_D objects such as banknotes do not create a copyright for the scanner, adn any copyright in the underlying note itself does not belong to this site. DES (talk) 06:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This page says "The images in this online gallery may be downloaded for reuse by the news media, or for educational or scientific purposes.". --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 08:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment IANAL, but the site's terms of use is wholly irrelevant. Fair use rights can not be removed by a copyright statement. The question is do they have a copyright? I'd say no, they even say so themselves: "(...)Actual copyright of all the banknotes on Banknotes.com belongs to their issuing banks, authorities and/or authors and/or designers of the banknotes and their designs."[4]. So why are we crediting the site owner as the author of these images? We might credit him with digitizing the images as a courtesy, but the issuing bank would be the actual "author" in most cases. If on the other hand we do accept that they have a valid copyright claim then regardles of theyr terms of use we have to delete this tag ASAP, Seeing as they make a living out of selling prints of the images using those images where would directly impact the economic value of those images, and thus violate the actual US fair use law (not merely the Wikipedia policy). Furthermore the images would be replacable per Wikipedia policy since presumably any scans we make outselves would then be copyrighted by us. But as I said I don't think the scanner of such images have any rights to them... --Sherool (talk) 08:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed. This is not a valid image copyright tag; further research is required on a case-by-case basis to determine whether or not particular digital reproductions are free. This may be valid image source tag, but it should definitely be deprecated and, in this case, I say it should be deleted. --Iamunknown 14:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Pretty much, we have a lot of copyright tags on Wikipedia, and me and others are going through them all to figure out which is a legit license or not. I know we have a tag for currency, which is embeded into this template. The problem I had is while the image tag says X, the copyright information on the page that I have found, it says Y. Even at the bottom of all of his pages, it says "all rights reserved." I have no problem with the going through of each currency image and figuring out what we can keep or not, but I just do not feel easy having a template license that is very shaky being used to tag our images appropriately. That is why I brought the template here. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 15:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - The template confuses two wholly separate issues. The website in question does not own any of the copyrights on the bank note images that he is hosting; rather, the respective countries that designed them do. So I really see no point in this template whatsoever. We need to figure out the legal issues behind the currency themselves, and whether we can use them freely or whether we must claim fair use. Either way, this template is irrelevant and merely serves to confuse the issue. If his images are somehow restricted, we should make our own unrestricted scans and make them as freely available as possible. It's not like we have any sort of problem finding people from any given country (see the other Wikipedias). --Cyde Weys 15:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- this is a template about a second-hand source pretending to be a license or Wikipedia:Non free content special case. This just creates confusion. Jkelly 17:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete it's just a confusing and inaccurate template, per discussion above. feydey 19:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete; as per WP:IUP: "Also note that in the United States, reproductions of two-dimensional artwork which is in the public domain because of age do not generate a new copyright — for example, a straight-on photograph of the Mona Lisa would not be considered copyrighted (see Bridgeman v. Corel)." Since the banknote scans in question have no creative aspect, they do not generate a new copyright for Banknotes.com, and standard currency templates should be used instead. Crotalus horridus (TALKCONTRIBS) 01:17, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As the discussions above, creates confusion and is unnecessary. Jmlk17 02:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment So two issues
  1. copyright
  2. source
Yes, it is most likely the central bank or the individual artists hold the copyright. So the template in question transcludes {{money}}, which address the issue of fair use. And the rest of the template specifies where the image comes from. I don't see a problem with this template. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 06:12, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The reason is the power of template - ease to update and tracking. Should the webmaster of banknote.com change his mind one day, we would need to spend less effort to update stuff. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:00, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What I am trying to get at is even if we use an image from the website, the owner doesn't want us to, based on the copyright/terms of use statement he has. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:15, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Funny, that is a direct contradiction with a quote I provided very early on. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 07:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nope; the quote said the images can be used for "educational or scientific purposes." As I been driving into people's heads, those kind of images have disallowed on Wikipedia since May 2005. Partially, this is done by the site itself since it is selling the scans they do for people; which is used directly to fund the website. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 07:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. WoohookittyWoohoo! 08:01, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:DreadEmpiresFall (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

A license template for one particular book cover. Orphaned, and never needed in the first place. Jkelly 04:52, 19 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.