Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2007/October/31
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October 31
[edit]- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was keep cat as is, rename template to Africandiaspora-stub
Contains 47 items and maintained by Wikipedia:WikiProject African diaspora, but the template needs a rename. Any ideas? Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:53, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- This category looks like it could need a good brush. Owen 'Alik Shahadah is hardly a stub, the project hardcodes stub categories into the articles, and it is used on bios. I hope this doesn't mean that we'll end up seing Bill Cosby and Obama tagged as African diaspora as well. {{Africa-diaspora-stub}} might work as a name, but I don't like the idea about sorting according to race. Category:African American stubs reinforces this feeling. I don't see why it is relevant to tag Old Dillard High School and Central Academy with this stub, and Calvin E. Simmons doesn't look like a stub to me. Valentinian T / C 08:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Or what about Nisi Shawl? No indication at all what she should have to do with an African diaspora movement or similar. These templates are more trouble than they're worth. Valentinian T / C 19:18, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I agree entirely. I don't like the split by ethnicity types at all, and argued against them at the time (see also current discussions on the proposal page re:Franco-Belgian comics creators). This stub type in particular seems highly subjective and ambiguous, so I would not be sorry to see it go. Grutness...wha? 00:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Hi. I'm actually a member of WP:AFRO and first off I'm more than a bit concerned that this wasn't raised at the project talk page. I only actually found it because I was digging through all of the deletion discussions. I don't mind renaming to {{African-diaspora-stub}} or similar but I do not support deletion. Deleting the category would be akin to deleting Category:LGBT stubs. For starters it ignores a notable group and guidelines such as WP:CATGRS. But more importantly it impars the ability of the project to find and improve those articles. CJ 14:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- My bad. It was a long day...Anyway, what about using a talk page template, like the "article assessment" tags that are so popular? That would collect them into a category for your project without using stub category space. The main difficulty, I think, is making sure the stub category (if kept) would not include items that are only tangentially related to the African diaspora rather than directly. Her Pegship (tis herself) 17:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- We just recently set up article assessments. However, I don't think it's use precludes the use of a stub sorting category for sorting stubs. If it did there would be a case for deleting almost all of the stub categories because most of them are tied to one project or another. And making sure the right articles is in the category is a problem for every single category on Wikipedia so why would that be a special concern for this category? I've looked at some of the articles that were questioned previously. Old Dillard High School is a historically Black school as in it was specifically created as a result of segregation. I presume the same goes for Central Academy. Calvin E. Simmons is an African American. I presume at some time the article was a stub and someone forgot to pull the tag. Every single article that was mentioned is relavant to either African Americans or to the African diaspora. That further increases my lack of understanding of these concerns.
- If this is strictly a renaming discussion then by all means, rename it to whatever works. But deleting the categories and the templates because someone doesn't like categorizing by race/ethnicity creates a big time POV issue. CJ 18:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Assessment templates don't preclude the use or creation of stub templates, no - but the two serve different purposes and it's often more useful to have one than the other. Assessment templates are for subjects specific to individual WikiProjects, whereas stub templates are for use by editors across the whole of Wikipedia. It's often the case that a topic will be too nebulous for a stub template to be truly effective - articles which could be stubbed by it would be better suited to other stub categories - whereas those articles are central to the work of a WikiProject. This is the case here. An assessment template would allow you to create lists or categories of articles according to your own assessment of work needed on them, whereas a stub template might reduce the visibility of the articles for editors working in other fields (e.g., Bill Cosby, mentioned above, would be better classified with US comedians, and Barack Obama with US Democrat politicians). Given that we try to limit the number of stub templates an article has, reducing the number of more vague stub types and - in the case of subjects intimately associated with specific WikiProjects - suggesting their replacement with assessment templates is a frequent issue. Grutness...wha? 00:02, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- My bad. It was a long day...Anyway, what about using a talk page template, like the "article assessment" tags that are so popular? That would collect them into a category for your project without using stub category space. The main difficulty, I think, is making sure the stub category (if kept) would not include items that are only tangentially related to the African diaspora rather than directly. Her Pegship (tis herself) 17:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"I hope this doesn't mean that we'll end up seing Bill Cosby and Obama tagged as African diaspora as well."
- Why not? Obama already is via the talk page banner. CJ 18:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"African diaspora movement "
- African diaspora is not a movement. I think you're thinking of Pan-Africanism. African diaspora is a racial group. It's an anthropological and sociological grouping. CJ 18:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, thanks for clarifying the last point. In this template's primary purpose is to group people according to race, then I'll suggest deleting it since stub templates consistently sort people according to citizenship / occupation but not ethnicity, skin colour or gender. I have no objection to a talk page banner, which can provide the categorization you seek, but stub templates are a bad solution for this purpose. And whatever happens, please *don't* hardcode stub categories into articles. Your project seems to do so consistently and it makes our stub sorting work impossible. Please add stub templates but don't hardcode categories into the articles. The stub template activates the category automatically. Valentinian T / C 21:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll point out to the project that hardcoding should be removed where it's found, but it would be nice if you didn't just assume that we're responsible. Most of the articles we work on predate the project. Secondly WP:CATGRS allows categorization by race gender and sexuality so I don't get how stub sorting can just ignore that. Perhaps you could point out some existing guideline on wikipedia that says that stub categories can't use race? I looked. I couldn't find it. I mean if that's the policy it's the policy but it's not documented. In fact it's only been mentioned as a personal opinion. And the reasoning that was given about article assessments being preferred over stub categories would most likely mean the end of the stub sorting project since there is a comedy wikiproject and at least one us government project, there's a schools project, etc. CJ 01:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the AGF issue, I've sorted more then 20,000 stubs, and I've never before seen as high a proportion of articles having the stub categories hardcoded as is the case here and with the related Category:African American stubs. I simply picked a sample of articles and took a look: e.g. Hair Wars, Niggas vs. Black People and Black people in Ireland. Some of these articles are too long to be stubs, but that is another matter, but the hardcoding seems to be done recently and by different editors independently of each other [1] [2] . The result is, however, that the stub sorting system is ruined. Given the number of articles, a WP:WSS editor can probably fix the hardcoding business by AWB in an hour or so. Valentinian T / C 10:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Neither of those two examples involve members of the project. CJ 11:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Regarding the AGF issue, I've sorted more then 20,000 stubs, and I've never before seen as high a proportion of articles having the stub categories hardcoded as is the case here and with the related Category:African American stubs. I simply picked a sample of articles and took a look: e.g. Hair Wars, Niggas vs. Black People and Black people in Ireland. Some of these articles are too long to be stubs, but that is another matter, but the hardcoding seems to be done recently and by different editors independently of each other [1] [2] . The result is, however, that the stub sorting system is ruined. Given the number of articles, a WP:WSS editor can probably fix the hardcoding business by AWB in an hour or so. Valentinian T / C 10:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I'll point out to the project that hardcoding should be removed where it's found, but it would be nice if you didn't just assume that we're responsible. Most of the articles we work on predate the project. Secondly WP:CATGRS allows categorization by race gender and sexuality so I don't get how stub sorting can just ignore that. Perhaps you could point out some existing guideline on wikipedia that says that stub categories can't use race? I looked. I couldn't find it. I mean if that's the policy it's the policy but it's not documented. In fact it's only been mentioned as a personal opinion. And the reasoning that was given about article assessments being preferred over stub categories would most likely mean the end of the stub sorting project since there is a comedy wikiproject and at least one us government project, there's a schools project, etc. CJ 01:25, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, thanks for clarifying the last point. In this template's primary purpose is to group people according to race, then I'll suggest deleting it since stub templates consistently sort people according to citizenship / occupation but not ethnicity, skin colour or gender. I have no objection to a talk page banner, which can provide the categorization you seek, but stub templates are a bad solution for this purpose. And whatever happens, please *don't* hardcode stub categories into articles. Your project seems to do so consistently and it makes our stub sorting work impossible. Please add stub templates but don't hardcode categories into the articles. The stub template activates the category automatically. Valentinian T / C 21:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Just to be clear African American stubs should be a subset of Afro-Diaspora stubs. Nothing should be tagged with both. Other subsets of the African Diaspora we might want to consider creating are things like the Afro-Cuban, Afro-__ etc. There should not be a zillion articles tagged with the Diaspora stub tag since there are very few things that aren't a part of one region or another. There has been talk about an African American project, but until the African Diaspora project becomes bigger that's tabled. Bill Cosby would fall under such a project. That said, not every single Afro-___ person or thing should get this tag, just the ones that play some role in Diaspora history. I a bit annoyed that there was no message on the talk page, too. futurebird 02:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep and rename The African diaspora is the dispersal of Africans and their descendants around the world, primarily due to the slave trade. I'm not arguing WP:OTHERSTUFF, but a similar stub type is {{Judaism-bio-stub}}, which includes religious leaders, actors, businessmen, professors, and historians. Notwithstanding the statement that "This biographical article about a person notable in connection with Judaism is a stub", their common link is that they are Jewish — by religious practice? by ancestry? by no external set of religious, or legal, or sociological norms? Who knows.
Maybe the use of {{Afro-stub}} should be limited to stubs whose subjects are notable because of their role in the African diaspora. Such usage would preclude the application of this stub type to articles about African-American senators and multimillionaire comedians, assuming that any such stubs exist.
I strongly disagree that "this template's primary purpose is to group people according to race". Only a small number of the articles are biographies; most of them are about peoples (Afro-Arab, Afro-Guyanese), places (Museum of Contemporary African Diasporan Arts, Cotterwood), culture (Get down, Black orientalism), etc. They are not related to one another by black skin, but by roots in Africa and by the experience of Africans in the diaspora. The fact that most descendants of Africans are black-skinned doesn't make this category any more race-based than Category:European Olympic medalist stubs. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 05:47, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no problem with tagging articles like you propose here with a template like this. The scope you suggest seems to be easy to manage, but I'll oppose a mass-tagging of articles simply according to race. A U.S. artist is a U.S. artist nomatter the ethnic / national background of his/her ancestors. Valentinian T / C 10:04, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Look, I think the bigger part of this issue is that this category needs some cleanup. I'll make it a personal priority over the next few days. But you guys have to understand that while you might see a US senator. Someone else might see one of only what 4 members of the African Diaspora to ever run for the most powerful job in the world. That kind of makes them important to the Diaspora. CJ 11:19, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep.Crown Jewel is mistaken. This has absolutely nothing to do with "race." I myself am an African-American, a pan-Africanist, a nationalist, and I generally don't use the term except in quotes. This is about a group of people who are connected via shared cultural and historical roots and very obvious present-day, objective political and economic realities. It is a general ethnological rubric comprising many subgroups/ethnicities, many of whom share a common past, common struggles and challenges, and an interdependent destiny. Because the African diaspora is a concept and functional category that has broad application, relevance and implications for historical, ethnological, archaeological and macroeconomic and sociopolitical study and real-world events, the category is an important one and is worthy of a tag here which would serve to consolidate/connect related articles. I don't much care how it is renamed as long as its central meaning is not distorted; it should stand. I am annoyed with the precipitous nature of this deletion process -- which happens all too frequently here when it comes to subject matter treating Africans in the diaspora. I find it rude, arrogant and disrespectful, and it's time for this bullsh*t to stop. deeceevoice 15:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Everybody simmer down. This category has been listed on the stub discoveries page for ten months now, so nothing has been done precipitously. I listed it here in order to get the template renamed. Since I properly tagged the template, someone from the diaspora project noticed it and came here to comment. (So quit whining about how no one was notified.) I don't think there's any doubt that the African diaspora is a legitimate, encyclopedic topic. The stub project is currently interested in making the stub template and category (a) useful to all editors, not just the WPJ, and (b) in line with naming guidelines. I can personally attest to the fact that stub-sorters tend to be process-oriented and are only seeking practical procedural solutions, not attacking anyone's right to have their topic represented in Wikipedia. So please address the issue at hand. In the Big Picture of Life:
- is a stub type needed for African diaspora articles, or would a talk page template (which the WPJ can tweak to their heart's delight) be more appropriate?
- If a stub type is needed (not just wanted), should the template be reconfigured and if so, how?
- Her Pegship (tis herself) 17:06, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I know that you're probably trying to be helpful with this comment, but it isn't helpful to tell people to "simmer down" when no one is even that upset and then to minimize the concerns that a few of us have expressed about not being notified as "whining." I really was not annoyed with any of this until I read this last comment. Now I am annoyed. It never helps to say that people are "whining" it's soooooo condescending.
- But, lets not harp on that. Can we just agree that it helps to notify a project when you're talking about their tags? CJ's done a lot of work today to address the issue with people hard coding things. (Thanks!) And now we have a nice little note on WP:AFRO that will let people know how to use the stubs. What I would like to see is our projects stubs put in to the sorting hierarchy. I don't know much about how that works... what larger stub category would contain African Diaspora stubs? etc. futurebird 17:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Right now it's listed under these stub categories:
- Africa stubs (not really the best place for it...)
- Stub categories (way too general)
What is a more refined place for this? The other reason I'm asking about this is I'd like to help find other stubs for our project, but it's not clear where in stub sorting they might be...futurebird 17:45, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry! I deal with whiny students all day so have an overactive radar for that sort of thing. Another user used the terms rude, disrespectful, and B.S., which I perceived as someone who was riled, thus I made what I thought was a helpful comment. Sorry if you didn't find it at least amusing. ANYway...I think Africa stubs is an appropriate parent for this stub type, or possibly Category:Ethnic group stubs. Permcats that would work might be Category:Diasporas, Category:Diaspora studies, or Category:Human migration. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So you think the way to respond to someone who writes of the pervasive systemic bias of the project is trying to be "amusing"? Try again. deeceevoice 07:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I think that the way to respond to someone who writes of the pervasive systemic bias of the project using inflammatory language is to try to lighten the atmosphere so that this doesn't become a flame war. A soft answer is supposed to turn away wrath. Try yourself. Her Pegship (tis herself) 19:30, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- So you think the way to respond to someone who writes of the pervasive systemic bias of the project is trying to be "amusing"? Try again. deeceevoice 07:03, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry! I deal with whiny students all day so have an overactive radar for that sort of thing. Another user used the terms rude, disrespectful, and B.S., which I perceived as someone who was riled, thus I made what I thought was a helpful comment. Sorry if you didn't find it at least amusing. ANYway...I think Africa stubs is an appropriate parent for this stub type, or possibly Category:Ethnic group stubs. Permcats that would work might be Category:Diasporas, Category:Diaspora studies, or Category:Human migration. Her Pegship (tis herself) 22:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've come across where some of these hardcoded stub categories came from. 128.111.56.35. Given the timing of the edits and the similar edit summaries I'm thinking maybe an unauthorized bot? CJ 23:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Rename, and scope per the analysis of Malik Shabazz. This seems a perfectly legitimate stub type scope, but there's a clear, and indeed at this point well-demonstrated risk of topic drift here: like several of the above, I'm not comfortable with what are prominent article-space templates being used with a "banners by ethnicity" reading. It's no comfort from WPSS's perspective that the creation was by one group of people, and the drift by another. BTW, notification cuts both ways: this was created, and subsequently tagged with {{WPSS-cat}}, without a cheep of same to the stub-sorting project. (Indeed, the latter has the status of a guideline, whereas if a category and template are in regular use by a project, tagging them should be sufficient for most practical purpose.) Alai 18:11, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sooooo...whatsitgonnabe? {{Africa-diaspora-stub}} or {{African-diaspora-stub}}? I leave it to those with a knack for template conventions. Her Pegship (tis herself) 23:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If there's going to be a hyphen in it, it should be {{Africa-diaspora-stub}} (more strictly hierarchical would be {{diaspora-Africa-stub}}, but that's entirely tortuous); the consistent alternative would be {{Africandiaspora-stub}}. The first seems the least painful. Alai 03:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Fwiw, my preference is for {{Africandiaspora-stub}} (for consistency and less tortuousness). Her Pegship (tis herself) 16:22, 23 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If there's going to be a hyphen in it, it should be {{Africa-diaspora-stub}} (more strictly hierarchical would be {{diaspora-Africa-stub}}, but that's entirely tortuous); the consistent alternative would be {{Africandiaspora-stub}}. The first seems the least painful. Alai 03:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Sooooo...whatsitgonnabe? {{Africa-diaspora-stub}} or {{African-diaspora-stub}}? I leave it to those with a knack for template conventions. Her Pegship (tis herself) 23:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
{{game-theory-stub}} / Category:Game theory stubs → upmerged {{gametheory-stub}}
[edit]- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the stub template and/or category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the debate was rename and upmerge
Contains 30 articles, potential for a few more. Per Grutness' suggestion at Discoveries, I suggest we delete the category and rename and upmerge the template. Her Pegship (tis herself) 03:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the template's or category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this section.