Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 January 5

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January 5

Asore watasha?

In an anime (Otome Youkai Zakuro, in case you're curious) the main characters' battle song starts: "A-sore watasha: hana ka? Chouchou ka? Oni ka?" I guess this means "What am I? A flower? A moth? A daemon?". This makes sense, as the said characters are half-daemons. The question -- actually, two -- is (1) how does "watasha" works grammatically? How is it derived from "watashi"? And (2) what does it mean in this context and in general? I tried to look for 私しゃ but the dictionaries don't seem to recognize it. I'm not even sure I spelled it right. Any ideas? --08147A01270 (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Watasha is an another colloquial form of "watashi wa". Sorry that I cannot explain it well. Think it as the difference of "I am" and "I'm" or "I'm not" and "I ain't". It's a simple phonological change and it is often used by older people, especially in fiction. The meaning of the words is "There, am I a flower? A butterfly? A demon?". Chouchou is a butterfly, not a moth. Moth is ga/蛾. Oda Mari (talk) 06:48, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I have no idea what the song in question sounds like, but consider also it could be a reference to hayashi kotoba in folk songs like the ones at the Awa Odori. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Oda Mari and TomorrowTime! --08147A01270 (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Linguistics meta-question

A while ago I read about a (rather small) linguistic school of thought that espoused a strict definition of native speaker. Under this definition one's native language is the first language one learns to communicate in, and to have two native languages one must learn them simulataneously, not one after the other; beyond basic proficiency ability in the language is not considered. Under this definition I would be a native speaker of French but not English, even though my French is not very good as I moved to the US when I was only 4 (just after I learned to talk) and haven't kept it up since (although I can still speak some and understand most). Can anyone tell me more about this group? Thanks. 24.92.70.160 (talk) 04:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how soundly this is based in reality. My father's first language was also French (though he was born in the United States), though he learned English by the time he was 6-7, and probably started using English almost exclusively by his teens, today he can barely speak French at all. He's as close to a "native English" speaker as you can get. I believe the difference you are referring to is that people learn a first language, as a toddler and young child, very differently than one learns a second language as an older child or an adult. Compare the articles Language acquisition and First language with Second language acquisition and Second language. --Jayron32 05:16, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the OP is asking for identification of the linguists or linguistic school of thought described, rather than any specific linguistic concepts. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Jayron, how can a person who did not start to speak English till he was 6-7 but spoke another language till then, be described as "as close to a native English speaker as you can get"? Surely the millions of people who have only ever spoken English from the time they started speaking at all are closer than your father, with all due respect. He's in the same boat as my ex-wife, who was born in Sydney of Russian(-ish) parents and only spoke Russian till she went to school. She then picked up English very quickly, and is now totally fluent in both languages. But there's no way she would ever describe herself as a "native English speaker", because there's no getting away from the fact that it was not her first language. People can become as fluent in a language as native speakers, and have no discernible accent from their first language - but that still doesn't mean they are native speakers. Maybe your father (and my ex) could best be described as "as close to a native English speaker as you can get, without actually being a native speaker". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 18:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The point is, my dad doesn't speak anything EXCEPT english. He has no fluency in French any more. English is his first and only fluent language. --Jayron32 19:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Yep, I got that, but he's still not a native speaker of English. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 20:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Meh. What is "native"? --Jayron32 20:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think most linguists would say it's a matter of linguistic competence - anyone with the same level of competence as an unambiguous native speaker (not that it's straightforward to measure competence) can be considered a native speaker of the language. If Jack's ex-wife and Jayron's father have all the same linguistic intuitions about English as Jack and Jayron do, then as far as linguists are concerned, they're native speakers. People like Jayron's father show that the terms "first language" and "native language" are not perfect synonyms, though of course for most people they're the same language. To get back to the OP's actual question, I've never heard of a school of linguistics that defines "native speaker" the way he says, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. —Angr (talk) 20:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Kaspersky Antivirus Services Could Not Start

Question transferred to Computing Desk. Richard Avery (talk) 08:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Chinese name with possible Arabic origin

The Tang Dynasty tale "Kunlun Nu" tells the story of a negrito slave with supernatural abilities that helps his master retrieve his love from a government official. The slave's name is Mo le, the Chinese characters for which I believe are 磨勒. According to Prof. James J.Y. Liu, Mo le was most likely pronounced Mau lak during the Tang dynasty (I'm not sure what the correct pinyin is for this) and was based on an Arab name. I have seen some translations spell the Tang-era name as Melek. What Arabic / Islamic name sounds similar to this? I was thinking Malik.

I would have thought the most natural association would be with the fairly common name Malak, on which we have an article. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I found a link between Melek and the Turkish pronunciation of angel (Melek) after posting this. I couldn't find an article on here under that name, however. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 09:59, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

There is also an Arabic/Islamic Maula with two conflicting meanings of 'slave' and 'slave owner'.--Omidinist (talk) 15:39, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Mawla -- The most literal meaning is "near one", and it means more "patron"/"client" in the original ancient Roman meaning, than "master"/"slave"... AnonMoos (talk) 16:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Question about Russian word

Why is gasoline in Russia called Benzine? Is it because gasoline production requires benzine? What do they call benzine itself? Googlemeister (talk) 17:06, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Benzine appears to be бензин, while gasoline is either бензин or газолин, according to Google. Try looking up 'petrol' and you will see керосин in addition to бензин and газолин. Not sure how reliable that is, because 'kerosine' is given as керосина. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:12, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Please be careful about using Google Translate for these things... Russian uses бензин for "gasoline/petrol" (газолин is really more of a technical term). This usage comes (I believe) from German, which also uses "Benzin" for gas/petrol. Benzine in Russian is also often called бензин, though benzene is called бензол. Voikya (talk) 17:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry - I know only too well about Google Translate's shortcomings - which is why I checked up the word 'kerosine' and stated I was unsure of its relaibility. Thanks for the answer, though - this was interesting to me, too. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Try looking up naphta as well - don't know about Russian, but in South Slavic languages (which follow the pattern described for Russian so far to an extent), crude oil is nafta, and naphta is.. hm, I'm not sure. Anyway, yes, the different demarcations for different oil products are all over the place when compared in English and Slavic languages. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:47, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Even within English, benzene, benzine, and benzyne are all different things. And translating between German and English is a pain - petrol/gasoline is Benzin, benzene is Benzol, jet fuel is Kerosin, kerosene is Petroleum, and petroleum is Erdöl. —Angr (talk) 19:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

In Romanian, gasoline/petrol is benzină, benzene is benzen (it's also called benzol, but only rarely), jet fuel is cherosen, kerosene is petrol lampant or simply gaz, while petroleum is petrol or ţiţei. This has always bugged me. Rimush (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It's also benzina in Italian, I believe. —Tamfang (talk) 18:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, the British call it "petrol," even though it's not petroleum but a refined product. And Americans call it "gas," even though it's usually a liquid. So who's right? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, "petrol" is an abbreviation of "petroleum spirit". Alansplodge (talk) 19:02, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Jed Clampett called it black gold or Texas tea.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tintin called it Black Gold, too. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Americans call their standard motor fuel gas, because that is short for gasoline. I am not sure if gasoline is an official chemical compound found in the liquid or what. Googlemeister (talk) 19:06, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

There is no single compound called gasoline. The term gasoline refers to certain mixtures of light hydrocarbons, predominately alkanes. There are other names for different mixtures of hydrocarbons with different compositions: kerosene is made up of somewhat heavier hydrocarbons, and naphtha and petroleum ether describe somewhat lighter mixtures of hydrocarbons. White spirit/Mineral oil are similar in composition to gasoline, though the standards differ. Diesel fuel is composed of somewhat heavier hydrocarbons than kerosene, and Paraffin is even heavier than diesel (unless you live in the UK or South Africa, in which case Kerosene is Paraffin and Paraffin is... ?). In all cases, there is never an exact mixture corresponding to each class: generally, to be called "gasoline" (or kerosene, or...), the liquid must be within a certain range of densities, have a certain vapor pressure, and other properties. The actual composition is less important: some "gasoline" has a significant amount of benzene added to it, while others use the (slightly less carcinogenic) toluene. Buddy431 (talk) 05:41, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

In the UK, we are specific about which paraffin hydrocarbon we are talking about e.g. methane (lightest), heating oil (heavy kerosene), paraffin oil or "liquid paraffin" (laxative), or candle wax (solid). The only one that we call "paraffin" is the lighter heating grade (BS2869 Class C1). Do Americans really use the word "paraffin" with such a wide range of meanings? Dbfirs 09:39, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Side question: do americans also call 'diesel' 'gas'? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:21, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

No, we call it diesel. —Angr (talk) 08:09, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

(not responding to anyone in particular) One other trouble with all of this is that terms may not map perfectly into other languages. Benzine is a specific compound, so obviously there's less ambiguity. But "gasoline" describes a mixture of compounds that can have different properties, within certain ranges (likewise for diesel, naphtha, kerosene, etc. etc.) It's concievable that there is no word in Russian that exactly describes what an American English speaker would call kerosene: for lighter kerosenes, it may be one thing, but for heavier kerosenes, another. In some cases in English anyway, similar mixtures get called different things depending on what they're used for (Jet fuel vs. Kerosene, for example). I don't know how this works in other languages, but there's no requirement that the Russians, or anyone else, conceive of gasoline fuel in exactly the same way English speakers do. Buddy431 (talk) 05:46, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Everyday-everday?

I recall my mother who was from Texas always pronounced everyday as everday. If one listens carefully to Mick Jagger in Paint it Black he also says everday. Do you think it was deliberate or do some English people say everday, hence its arrival in the southern US from early English immigrants? It must be noted that Jagger is a very well-educated, middle-class Londoner. Thanks for whatever light can be shed on this interesting matter.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, it is not at all normal in British English. Bear in mind, Jagger sang/sings with an American accent. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

(EC)I was going to suggest maybe it was just a necessity due to the rhythm of the song, but then I went and listened to it, and I can fairly clearly hear him say "every day" - it's at around the 0:55 point in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BhHTA6Gzn0, if anyone else wants to listen in and weigh in. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:42, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I can vouch for that. He does indeed pronounce 'every' in the normal way. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, even when I was young I always thought he was singing everday. It must be pointed out that Jagger does not sing with an American accent in Paint it Black which is why I was astounded. Now had he sang everday in Faraway Eyes that would have been normal as he puts on an excellent Texan accent in that, even down to the "wail" (well)!--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 18:51, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Even Paint It Black is a decidedly American accent, heard from this side of the pond, Jeanne. Seriously, most rock stars sing/sang with (what we would consider to be) American accents, possibly in part because it's more authentic to the origins of rock music, and partly because a British accent would sound ridiculous. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 22:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

For me, British pop singers attempting to sing in fake American accents is what's ridiculous! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.30.197 (talk) 23:08, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't know, some of them seem to pull it off. Maybe The Troggs, The Small Faces, or Blur? Thing is, though, most rock and pop singers adopt an accent while singing which differs from their accent while talking (Sting's singing accent has always struck me as particularly strange), and from the viewpoint of a British accent, there might be similarities between an accent suitable for singing and an American accent - flattened vowels being the obvious feature. The American accent is generally a bit more lazy than the British, and that's a desirable way to sing, too, because excessively clear consonants and diverse vowels get in the way of clear notes. 213.122.26.117 (talk) 12:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

In "Waiting on a Friend" he uses not only a Texas accent but also Texas syntax (most of the rest of the English-speaking world would say "I'm not waiting for a lady, I'm just waiting for a friend"). —Angr (talk) 18:56, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Those songs were all obviously influenced by Jerry Hall. She claimed in a 1980s interview that Mick always took the p.ss out of her Texan drawl. I must needs point out that my mother would have said "waiting for" rather than "waiting on".--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 19:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, whether it was taking the piss or not, the major British acts of the 1960's were heavily influenced by a wide range of American music, both black and white, northern and southern. The Stones had several songs which were obviously country influenced, and the Beatles had a strong foundation in country music, consider that Help (album), about half of the songs have a distinctive Southern U.S. twang to them. I'm not sure it was taking the piss as much as a genuine attempt at homage to an influencial music. --Jayron32 19:14, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

If Jerry Hall used the expression "taking the piss", she's as guilty of dialect appropriation as he is! —Angr (talk) 20:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Unless she was into golden showers...--Jayron32 20:34, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, she has a right to take the mickey. —Tamfang (talk) 21:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I was born and I live in Texas. I say it "evruhday." schyler (talk) 21:24, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

As an American, I would not have said that Mick Jagger sings in an American accent. Dusty Springfield and Eric Burdon sound American. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Have you never tried singing "I can't get no satisfaction" in a British accent? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

As an aside, though it is claimed that Mick Jagger was trying to sound "Texan" when saying "Everday", actual Texan Buddy Holly (one of whose songs was a major early hit for the Stones) wrote and sang the song "Everyday", which he CLEARLY enunciates "everyday." Just saying... --Jayron32 02:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Taking the piss is my expression, not Jerry's. I think she might have said Mick always makes fun of my Texan drawl. After all, I read it back in the 80s. As for Paint it Black, his accent is not overtly American. David Bowie was one English rock singer who always sang in a pronounced English accent using slang as well (Falls wanking to the floor) is a perfect example.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but even David Bowie sings "Let's [dæns]" and not "Let's [dɑːns]". The thickness of his London accent when singing decreased over the years, though he brought it back for "The Buddha of Suburbia", presumably because that song is explicitly about London. The thickness of the Beatles' Liverpool accent when singing also decreased over the years: in "I've Just Seen a Face" they pronounce aware [əˈwɜː] to make it rhyme with her, which I bet they wouldn't have done 3 or 4 years later. —Angr (talk) 12:09, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I would exclude Octopus's Garden (1969) from that. Mind you, it was Ringo Starr singing. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Fantastic - the areas where Sting and Eric Burdon grew up are just four minutes apart on the number 12 bus route. Similarities in accent: not much. 213.122.26.117 (talk) 12:35, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Nobody could ever mistake Steve Marriott's origins in Lazy Sunday Afternoon! Absolutely no attempt at an American accent there. I had another listen to Paint it Black. Jagger appears to sing everuhday, and he uses the US southern haid for head; as for the rest, it sounds neutral, mid-Atlantic. Strange, from the first time I heard Paint it Black in 1966 up to now I was convinced Jagger sang everday. Bowie's London accent is very strong from 1971-1974. In Big Brother he says capers as capahs with the British soft R, whereas an American would say caperrrrs. John Lennon's accent was less Scouse than George Harrison's, BTW.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 15:52, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Even most American singers go non-rhotic when singing, though, except maybe in country music. Trained classical singers are specifically taught to drop their Rs before consonants and at the end of a word (heck, even in my 3rd grade music class in Rochester, NY, we were taught to do that), and a lot of rock singers do too, maybe because it sounds more black (AAVE being non-rhotic). At any rate, even I as a fully rhotic American notice (and cringe) when singers don't drop their Rs (e.g. Bette Midler singing "riverrrrr", "razorrrrr", "hungerrrrr", and "flowerrrrr" in "The Rose"). —Angr (talk) 23:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, typically trained singers try to soften the "R" and also the "S" sounds, the later especially in choral groups so they don't sound like hissing snakes. Another rhotic singer was John Denver, although it seemed to work for him. However, the Beatles always sounded British to me, as they would at some point lapse into British, such as in "I Should Have Known Better", with the line, "Give me mo', give me mo', give me mo'", which sounds like they're making an appeal to the Three Stooges. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I just listened to a couple of "Everyday" recordings. Buddy Holly (native Texan) consistently pronounces "every" as "ev'ry", which I would say is a typical American pronunciation. James Taylor (native North Carolian) sings the song at a more leisurely pace and says "ev-er-y" throughout. Also, Buddy pronounces "surely" like "Shirley" (somewhere Leslie Nielsen is smiling), while James pronounces it "shorely". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

One American singer who sang with a strong Texan accent was Port Arthur native Janis Joplin. Just listen to her in Piece of My Heart: Everatahm ah tell mahself....--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:23, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

An interesting article here about why non-Americans sing with American accents. Alansplodge (talk) 18:57, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I think the article is right. Rock music is probably better suited to an Amerian accent. Using incorrect grammar is also preferred by rock, C&W, and pop singers.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 08:29, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Terms like "Victorian"

Prompted by this thread where the OP used the term "Victorian" but whose location in not clear, I was wondering if the term "Victorian" (and further "Tudor", "Georgian" etc.) are used outside the United Kingdom and/or Commonwealth, and if not then what other terms are used to replace them – similar monarchical terms, where they exist, or something altogether different?. [For those not aware, the term "Victorian" represents not only a historic time period but also features of that time period.] Thanks Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 19:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Tudor and Georgian are used in the rebellious colonies for architectural styles, Victorian for mores. See also Victorian architecture#North America. —Tamfang (talk) 19:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I'd say all three terms are used in the United States to refer to the culture of the corresponding period. Where US usage differs is that we would not use the term Victorian to refer to U.S. politics during the period when Victoria was on the British throne, whereas I think you would use the term to refer to British politics during that period (e.g., "Victorian Liberals" or "Victorian poor laws"). Likewise, we would not use the term Georgian to refer to the internal policies of the colonies that became the United States, but we might refer to Georgian taxation policies, i.e., taxation policies emanating from the Westminster government under one of the Georges. While the "Victorian period" might be a commonly accepted historical period in British history, it is not an accepted period in U.S. history, except maybe for cultural history. Whereas the Victorian period is somewhat cohesive in British history, the corresponding timespan in the United States was broken up by the pivotal event of the American Civil War, so that American historians break that timespan into an "antebellum period" (roughly 1820-1860) before the war, the period of the civil war itself (1860-1865), the Reconstruction period, and the Gilded Age that followed it. Marco polo (talk) 19:50, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Its not just British terms either, architectural styles from other countries are named for the period that produced them, even in the United States. See Second_Empire_(architecture)#Second_Empire_in_the_United_States for another example. --Jayron32 19:54, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Still, I think that the Second Empire style would be broadly considered one of several Victorian-era architectural styles. Marco polo (talk) 20:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

In Denmark, and I would guess in Europe in general, it seems only "Victorian" can be used as a general term applicable even for things outside Great Britain, while "Tudor" and "Georgian" is only used for things specifically British. A person from Denmark could easily be said to have a "Victorian mindset" or live in "Victorian times" (it seems often used to stress prudish or colonialist behaviour, but not exclusively so). --Saddhiyama (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

However, in Germany, Victorian is not a commonly used term for 19th-century architecture. The corresponding terms would be Biedermeier for what in Britain (and the United States) was the early Victorian period, and Gründerzeit for the later period. Marco polo (talk) 20:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

"Victorian" is fairly commonly used when talking about 19th century Britain (obviously not when talking about Germany, and we wouldn't use "Biedermeier" to talk about Britain). "Tudor" might be used occasionally due to the fame of Henry VIII. , but "Georgian" is pretty much unknown outside specialist circles, I guess. --Wrongfilter (talk) 20:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Don't forget that once Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden joins the choir invisible and becomes an ex-king, the Swedes will start assuming "Victorian" means the current times. JIP | Talk 22:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Shuffling off his mortal coil would not make him an ex-king, but a former king. Only abdication, deposition or abolition can produce ex-kings. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 00:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you missed the joke. --Anonymous, 04:25 UTC, January 6, 2011.

Here in the state of Victoria, Australia we are very confused. We do use Victorian for architectural style and mores, but there's more. I am Victorian, because I live here. Our representative sports teams are Victorian. Our government is Victorian (although the building in which parliament meets is Romanesque Revival, not Victorian, in style), etc, etc, etc... I wonder if the people of Victoria, British Columbia in Canada have similar problems? HiLo48 (talk) 00:24, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

For example: "Craigdarroch Castle in Victoria, British Columbia, is a historic, Victorian-era Châteauesque mansion". The Rough Guide to Vancouver even calls it "a typical upper-class Victorian Victoria home". Victor Victoria, a confusing name! ---Sluzzelin talk 00:44, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Note that as usual in North America for things smaller than countries, the place name is used as an adjective rather than being inflected, so it's not a "Victorian Victorian home", but a "Victorian Victoria home". I believe residents of the city are Victorians, though. --Anonymous, 04:27 UTC, January 6, 2011.

They have other problems, like being on Vancouver Island when Vancouver isn't. —Tamfang (talk) 00:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, well, you just have to remember that Vancouver was so named because it was near Vancouver Island. --Anonymous, 04:28 UTC, January 6, 2011.

Kanji variants

Hi, are the following kanji interchangeable and equally acceptable in Japanese?

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9305/k12q.jpg

If so, are there any other kanji where the "containing" element can take either of these two forms? 86.135.30.197 (talk) 23:05, 5 January 2011 (UTC).

Can't directly answer your question, but the left-bottom element is radical 162. See entry on character at http://www.edrdg.org/cgi-bin/wwwjdic/wwwjdic?1MUJ%E8%BE%BB ... AnonMoos (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

P.S. commons:Category:Radical 162... -- AnonMoos (talk) 03:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they are. They are called shin'nyō/しんにょう/之繞/辵 or shin'nyū/しんにゅう. The one with two dots is Kyūjitai. See also the last paragraph of Japanese script reform#Gaiji. Interestingly, because of the difference of the font system, Windows XP has only the double-dotted/niten shin'nyō/二点しんにょう kanji and Windows 7 has only the single-dotted/itten shin'nyō/一点しんにょう kanji. See this. Oda Mari (talk) 05:30, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi Mari (I hope I am correct in addressing you that way). Are there other kanji that can allow either form of shin'nyō? The other common ones that I know, like 通, 連, 選, 近, 道 and 進, I think I've only seen written with the single dot. 86.184.236.91 (talk) 19:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC). (PS: I'm assuming that your answer "Yes, they are" is to my first question, not my second.)

It's correct to call me Mari. Looking at a 1934 published kanwa-jiten/漢和辞典/Chinese character dictionary of mine, all kanji with the shin'nyō radical are double-dotted. In other words, there is no single-dotted shin'nyō. It looks like shin'nyō was always double-dotted in Japan before the script reform. But people use the single-dotted shin'nyō today. Computers' fonts do not have all Kyūjitai. So I recommend you to buy a kanwa-jiten. See the difference of shin'nyō, aka chaku-bu in ja, among CJK countries at here. It is sufficient that you understand it's a same radical and you can alway use the single-dotted shin'nyō except some proper names using double-dotted kanji in ja. Of course, if you prefer to write the double-dotted shin'nyō, it is perfectly OK to write that way except jōyō kanji. Oda Mari (talk) 06:13, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. 86.173.36.199 (talk) 14:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)