Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/August 2005 III

Study of bats

What is the term for the study of bats? It's not "batology," is it? Neutrality^talk 04:57, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Possibly "chiroptology"? -- 216.183.69.36 05:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

If it is it'd be chiropterology, after the order of Bats. ¦ Reisio 06:06, 2005 August 14 (UTC)

This Google answer confirms that it is chiropterology and chiropterologist. James 06:14, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Bookmaker odds

Why do bookies pay out odds at $X1 dollars, e.g. $51, $91, $101, $1001. What is the purpose of the extra dollar. --Ballchef 06:32, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

In the United Kingdom this isn't what they do. But what they do do is give you back your original stake as well as the winnings. If for example you bet ten pounds on a horse at 5 to 1, and it wins, after you pick yourself up from the floor the bookie will pay you back 5 times your stake (50 pounds) plus giving you your stake back (10 pounds): a total of 60 pounds. In the example you state above, you would see this effect if betting $1 at 50 to 1, 90 to 1, 100 to 1 or 1000 to 1. But it isn't an extra dollar, it's just the stake back. However, laws and conventions may vary: I understand in some countries it's even illegal to bet. Even in the United Kingdom, there are ways of betting on horses (e.g. the Tote) which do not quote fixed odds so they don't work this way. Notinasnaid 08:42, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I see this betting in Australia, where the odds are often for example 51 to 1, 91 to 1, 1001 to one. Is this just an Aussie thing? --Ballchef 09:33, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

EARTH

Why does earth rotate around itself?? Poop Revolvs around it and so does Peater Griffin

From what I understand about physics, it rotates around itself because of Newtonian physics. It probably started rotating around itself when it was first being formed, and as the laws of mechanics say, an object in motion tends to stay in motion. There's no friction in space to slow the Earth's rotation down, nor do any sufficiently large foreign objects hit it. Actually, it would be very uncommon for a non-self-powered object in space not to rotate around itself. — J;IP | Talk 08:47, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Conservation of angular momentum. Gdr 15:59:57, 2005-08-14 (UTC)

Shop prices only just below a round amount

Why are most prices of items in shops in most of the western world (Europe and North America at least) only just below a round amount? For example, 0.99 instead of 1, 1.99 instead of 2, 9.99 instead of 10, 24.99 instead of 25, and so on? My original reasoning was that the shop "fools" people into thinking the price is significantly less than the round amount, but that can't be right, can it? It's so widespread that it must have been independently thought of in several places. — JIP | Talk 09:17, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Because when you buy five items you save a whole 5 cents --Ballchef 09:35, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Or perhaps because businesses don't pay tax on money that is rounded up. It would end up being quite a large amount over the space of a year, But then this is a total guess, and I'm sure laws are different in different countries. --Ballchef 09:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Is that actually the cases anywhere? in britain you pay tax on the full amount. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 11:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Its psychological. Ninety-nine sounds much lower than a hundred. Its not a western phenomena let me add. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:40, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

It also discourages employee theft. If it costs a fiver and you give a fiver you may very well walk out of the shop without waiting for a receipt, and the employee has the option of poketing the money rather than ringing it up. If it costs 4.99 you tend to wait for the change, forcing the employee to ring it into the till. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 11:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately in India we don't have a 1 paise coin, so we end up paying the rounded figure. =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:51, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

But do you have 5, 10 or 50 paise coins? In Finland we didn't have 1 or 5 penni coins either for the last couple of years of the markka, but there were still prices such as 0.90, 1.90, etc. — JIP | Talk 16:37, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

I have heard this referred to as price ending. The two explanations above (fooling the customer and preventing employee theft) are usually given, with a third: the total includes a checksum for the number of items purchased. Bovlb 14:22:15, 2005-08-14 (UTC)

Some stores also use the least significant digit for classification, e.g. .x9 is regular, .x7 is sale, .x6 is rebate, .x3 is refurbished, what have you. Lomn | Talk 20:55:10, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

I do not know how come it started, but today in some US states it is easier to cheat people like the gov when computing taxes.

If you have access to the rules used in retail for taxes, it is not a fixed % with a spelled out rounding rule, but table of rates, how much to charge if price is this, in which there are marginal tax rates that encourage pricing like this. AlMac|^(talk) 21:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Slavery in the United States

When was slavery abolished (in law, although perhaps not in practice) in the USA ? On the website of Free the Slaves I can see that a law was signed during the US civil war, but this by no means extended to all areas. I cannot, however, find anywhere reference to when universal legislation came into effect across all states and territories that the US controls (or controlled). Can someone please help ? Even better, perhaps an appropriate article of Wikipedia can be expanded in this respect. Many thanks

A paragraph from our article on slavery:

During the period between the surrender of the last Confederate troops on May 26, 1865 and the final ratification of the Thirteenth Amendment on December 6, 1865 (with final recognition of the amendment on December 18), officially ending chattel slavery in the United States, slaveholding persisted in the slave states not in rebellion against the Union (Delaware, Kentucky, and Missouri; Maryland established a new constitution, which abolished slavery, November 1, 1864) and also in the territories located south of 36° 30' North latitude as per the Missouri Compromise (most of the present-day states of Arizona, New Mexico, and some of Oklahoma, although very few slaves could actually be found in these territories), but history remains unclear on the precise date upon which the last chattel slave was freed in the United States. Juneteenth (June 19, 1865) is celebrated in Texas and some other areas, and commemorates the date when news of the Emancipation Proclamation reached the last slaves at Galveston, Texas.

alteripse 12:52, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

what happens if we have more or less chromosomes?

Have you looked at the article on Aneuploidy? 82.210.117.55 11:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Bad things. Each chromosome contains about 1/46 of genetic information, including thousands of genes affecting most of the organ systems in the body. Missing chromosomes (except Y and sometimes X) tend to be incompatible with fetal development. Extra chromosomes tend to cause minor or major malformation or malfunction of multiple parts of the body. alteripse 12:49, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Having an odd combination of X or Y Chromosomes tends to have less ill effects than odd numbers of other chromosomes. For instance, Triple-X syndrome usually does not manifest itself in any way. Turner syndrome is an exception, in which most babies spontaneously abort before fully developing. Abnormal numbers of other genes are always fatal and/or extremely detrimental. Down syndrome, for instance, is caused by having three copies of chromosome 21. There is a short list of chromosome abnormalities here. James 15:29, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Close but not quite. XXX causes taller stature in most and learning problems in many of these people. Turner syndrome is not an exception to any of the prior statements. alteripse 15:45, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

As the article on XXX says, "triple X syndrome most often causes no unusual physical features or medical problems." Taller stature and learning disabilities are linked to people with triple-x, but having three x chromosomes is by no means a guarantee that either of those things will happen (neither of which are very severe), unlike with Down syndrome, where having trisomy 21 guarantees Down's. Turner syndrome is an exception to the general rule that abnormal sex chromosomes, while having some odd effects, are not detrimental to the same extent as other chromosomal abnormalities are. James 19:16, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps the problem is the precision of your reading and/or writing. Both of your assertions, that XXX "usually does not manifest itself in any way", and "Turner syndrome is an exception...to the general rule that abnormal sex chromosomes... are not detrimental to the same extent as other chromosomal abnormalities" were simply false. Most people with XXX are taller than they would be otherwise and many have learning problems. Turner syndrome is an example, not an exception, to the generalization about sex chromosome versus autosome aneuploidy. alteripse 20:34, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

First, Turner syndrome is most certainly an exception to the generalization that sex chromosome abnormalities are less harmful than autosomal ones. See Lippe B: Turner syndrome. Endocrinol Metab Clin North Am 20(1):121-152, 1991, where it is found that 99% of fetuses with Turner syndrome are spontaneously aborted. Further, XXX is so unremarkable that some 80% of people with it go undiagnosed. As for learning problems, most are, nontheless, of normal inteligence. The article "A developmental study of girls with trisomy X." from Genetics 1975 Jan;27(1):71-80 found that "two-thirds were considered normal and adequately adjusted. No consistent phenotype was found." That study only dealt with children who were already known to have XXX syndrome; there are many more that are never even diagnosed. It is clear the trisomy x is not as serious most other disorders. James 21:08, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Nope. First, if Turner syndrome were not "less harmful" than missing autosomes there would be no girls for Barbara to have written an article about. About 1 in 3000 people are missing a sex chromosome; many go to college. Give me an example of an autosome deletion in which even 1 in a thousand make it to birth, let alone grow up to become taxpayers. Turner syndrome certainly is an example of how sex chromosome aneuploidies are milder than autosomal ones. Second, you claimed that XXX "usually does not manifest itself in any way", and over half of these girls are either taller than would have been statistically expected given family heights or have more school difficulty than would be expected compared to siblings. You are certainly stubborn, but not correct in either case. alteripse 21:33, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

You seem to be completely ignoring what I'm saying and the statistics I'm giving. this article says that "monosomy X (Turner syndrome) is observed frequently and is the most common chromosomal abnormality observed in SABs (spontaneous abortions). Turner syndrome accounts for 20-25% of cytogenetically abnormal abortuses," which is a huge number considering the large number of problems that can lead to spontaneous abortion. This site gives the incidence rate of Turner syndrome in the US at 1 in 5,000 or .02%, an extremely low percentage on its own. Also, it cites the University of Ulster which says that 1 infant was born alive in the UK with Turner Syndrome in 2002 and that it occured in only 2.38 per 10,000 births. There are clearly not many people who make it past pregnancy. As for XXX, I actually said that it usually does not manifest itself in anyway, which is well supported by the study I referenced above as saying that 2/3 of the children tracked in the study with XXX had no abnormalities. James 15:08, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I realize this has gone past facts to headbutting, but not a single statistic you provided has proven your erroneous assertions nor disagreed with anything I have said. Different studies give different stats for Turner frequency and it makes no difference to any of the above whether it is 1 in 3000 or 1 in 20,000, it is still hundreds of times more likely than a missing autosome to result in a walking, talking, socially functioning person and is thus an example of, not an exception to, the generalization about sex chromosome aneuploidies being less harmful than autosome aneuploidies. As far whether there is any effect on most people with XXX, I think you are confusing major problems with the literal meaning of "any effect". Average heights are taller, average school performance is lower, average fertility rates are lower, average amydala size is smaller (to pick a random recent report). Although you could argue theoretically that a minority of patients have striking enough tallness or learning problems to provide an abnormal average, the usual distribution of these characteristics suggests that it is more likely that most have mild effects below limits of any but statistical detection. This is not the same as "no effect" even if they are not clinically troublesome. You are the one who needs to read your and my words more carefully. alteripse 16:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Each chromosome (in humans) carries roughly 1/23 of the total genetic information (they come in pairs, one from each parent). If you have an extra chromosome, you tend to produce more of the proteins which are coded for on that chromosome, relative to the proteins coded for on the 22 others. This tends to push your biochemistry out of kilter: prenatal death is the usual consequence, although some individuals (eg, those with Triple-X or Down syndromes) survive until birth and beyond. This doesn't apply if you have a complete set of duplicate chromosomes, which happens quite often in plants: the ratio of different proteins is still OK, although the cell division becomes more costly in energy and materials. Physchim62 16:28, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Throat slit

If your throat is slit, how long do you have to live, and what is the medical cause of death? =Nichalp «Talk»= 11:42, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

I guess it would depend on how deep the cut was. No? In general, I'd say there are quite a few factors to take into account and that would make this question a rather hard one to answer. Dismas 12:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

It depends on how complete a job it is. The severing of both carotid arteries results in instant deprivation of most of the brain's blood supply, unconsciousness within a couple of seconds, and irreversible brain death within 5-10 minutes. Severing one carotid would be like a massive stroke affecting one side of the brain in seconds, plus a large amount of bleeding. Loss of consciousness might not be immediate though loss of motor function might. Death from bleeding depends on the rate of blood loss-- you have to lose a lot to become unconscious, typically over 30% of blood supply. If the trachea (windpipe), but not the carotids would be cut, it might not be fatal unless bleeding or crushing obstructed breathing, in which case unconsciousness would occur within a couple of minutes and death in 5-10 minutes. Note that I am not a forensic pathologist nor a serial knife murderer, either of whom I would consider an authority. alteripse 12:43, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. Sadly, that would mean no sort of medical aid would ever help the victim =Nichalp «Talk»= 13:57, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

• I also seem to remember the direction of the cut is important. I would assume that a killer using their dominant hand to do the cut could make it deeper as that hand could use more force. - Mgm|^(talk) 16:46, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Geography of Antarctica

I remember reading somewhere that, beneath the thick layers of ice / snow, Antartica consists of two large "islands" with a wide stretch of ocean in between, i.e. in that sense it is not a single continent. Is this true? It would be nice if the article Geography of Antartica could have a map of its iceless form. (Actually, if you did remove all the ice, would the weight reduction cause the plate to rise by a significant amount, causing a change in the contour?) Thank you.

This map shows Antarctica in its iceless form. David Sneek 12:46, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

That map is not correct. It marks as solid land any place where ice extends to bedrock. The lighter colored regions are ice shelfs where the ice is resting on water. However, there are large chunks of Antarctica where the bedrock is below sea level so that it would be ocean if you could magically remove 3-4 km of ice. This map is more accurate [1] for what you get with magic ice removal. Not exactly "two large islands", but perhaps less firm than one might expect. Of course, one can't just magically remove the ice. If the ice ever were to melt, then the reduced weight from removing that much ice would cause the ground to rise substantially (over 1 km in some places). I don't really know what the final version would look like, but it might be enough uplift to close all the potential channels shown in the plot above. Dragons flight 06:16, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

In Jules Verne's Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, the Nautilus reaches the South Pole by traveling under Antartica and surfacing at a fictional sea in the middle of the continent. His account of the South Pole was notably warmer than reality, and populated by penguins, fish and birds… Whoops, Verne got that one wrong. Perhaps this was the book you read? Garrett Albright 13:06, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps you (or the author) were thinking of Greenland? It's certainly been hypothesised in the past that it's multiple islands under the icecap, though I don't know if that's currently supported by the evidence. Shimgray

Antarctica would indeed rise if the ice was taken off, as part of the process of post-glacial rebound, or "isostatic readjustment" as I seem to remember it being called. Now another thing I remember hearing about not too long ago is a theory that rising sea level could be dramatically worsened by the ice cap becoming unstuck from the landmass as it warms up and melts partially, allowing water to get underneath between the ice and the rocky surface. This would make the whole ice sheet much more liable to break up, substantially increasing its rate of melting as the exposed surface area increased and detatched bits drifted into warmer climes. I don't know how much truth there is in this. Perhaps we need our resident Antarctica expert William M. Connolley to offer some insight here. — Trilobite (Talk) 19:48, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

ARTIST: Pakelika, KottonMouth Kings

So far I've only made small edits to the snakeboard page, and will be adding knowledge as I progress through my freshman year of college. Pakelika Is an activist and an artist with many references, but no article. I know he's a member of the KottonMouth Kings under the SRH (Supporting Radical Habits) as the "Entertainment" rather than a vocalist or musician (specific name used). It is rumored he undertook a vow of scilence for a period of a year or more. In "entertaining" he created and named his own dance style, HydroMechanics. I would apreciate help building this article and collecting information further referencing Pakelika to his creation, HyrdroMechanics, and his contributions to the Suburban Noize movement.

Also I'm new here so I need to get the syntax down, post any suggestions on my talk page. (if that's how people contact each other on Wiki)

Thanks

Welcome to Wikipedia. This page is for specific questions… Do you have one? Please read the text at the top of the page. As for syntax help, see Wikipedia:How to edit a page.Garrett Albright 12:58, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, i'l take a look at that. Well I guess my specific question is where do I go to ask a general question such as above?

Have you visited this Wikipedia:Help_desk page? http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Help_desk

You might also post something at Wikipedia:New user log and then various people will go to your talk page and post links to pages that help you navigate Wiki. AlMac|^(talk) 21:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Hatteria

Does anyone know the origin of the name "Hatteria", a reptile from New Zealand also named tuatara or Sphenodon? --Tavilis 13:13, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

If I understand the taxonomic history correctly, then:

1. In 1831, the British Museum was sent a skull of an unknown vertebrate. John Edward Gray identified it (incorrectly) as a lizard and placed in a new genus which he named Sphaenodon (Zool. Misc., 1:14).
2. The name Sphaenodon was corrected to Sphenodon (when?)
3. A specimen found in Karewa Island, New Zealand, was named Hatteria punctata by Gray in 1842 (Zool. Misc. 2:72).
4. It was realized (by whom?) that the Sphaenodon skull belonged to the same species as H. punctata. This made Hatteria a junior synonym of Sphaenodon, so the New Zealand Tuatara became Sphenodon punctatus. (Note the change of gender.)

See [2] Gdr 15:51:32, 2005-08-14 (UTC)

Crappy russian present

File:Lada Keyring2.jpg

Reverse (click to expand)

My brother tries his hardest to find examples of the most riduculous and shameful souveniers wherever he goes on holiday. This year he has excelled himself. I am now in posession of the worst keyring ever. On one side is an engraving of that superb example of an automobile - the Lada. Does anyone known which model it is?

File:Lada Keyring1.jpg

Obverse (click to expand)

The salesman pleased at getting his attention at this fine piece of art, went on to explain it is even more valuable as it is engraved on both sides.

My heart fluttered - perhaps it would be a picture of a better Lada. Or perhaps a rarer breed of russian car.

On looking at the reverse, he was delighted to find a picture of a Russian Orthodox cleric. I should probably mention now that my brother wasn't even on holiday in Russia. There is a load of russian text. Can anyone translate, at least just the title? Dmn € Դմն 13:18, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The first word in the title means 'prayer', and I can't exactly read the second word, but it's an adjective, so I'll venture to guess that the small text is some sort of russian orthodox prayer. I don't know what this has to do with the Lada. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 16:22, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The car looks like a Lada Samara hatchback; they were sold here in the UK until a few years ago. There are a number of photos of Samaras here. Loganberry (Talk) 17:50, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

it's a "traveller's prayer", making the keyring a protective charm: You're supposed to use it for your ignition keys, and so maybe with this pious piece of plastic dangling from your dashboard, you'll be less likely to die in a car crash. dab (ᛏ) 18:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

The first line, "Молитва водителя", means, "Prayer of the driver." My Russian isn't very good but it says "God" quite a lot and "death" a few times. "Помоги меня, Господи" (pr: Po-ma-gee men-ya, Gas-po-dee) — "Help me, Gentleman"? Help me, Lord (entertaining mistranslation, eh?). The capitalization seems very un-Russian to me but that might be because it is referencing God a lot? I don't know much about these things, I must admit, my experience with Russian is very new. --Fastfission 21:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The capitalization may be due to the refrences to god, such as 'He' (as opposed to 'he') is used in the bible a lot. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 02:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here's my translation:

     THE DRIVER'S PRAYER
The Almighty and Allmerciful God, I humbly beseech You, save me, the sinner, and 
the people I am responsible for from sudden death and every danger.
 
Merciful God, save me from the evil spirit of dare-devilry and drunkenness that 
cause disasters and sudden death without an opportunity to repent.

Help me, Lord, to live till advanced age with the clean conscience, without the burden
of having killed and maimed by my negligence, and let Your name be hallowed now, and 
forever, and in all ages to come. 

Amen.

The font is just a bit archaic, to create a religious impression. Ornil 19:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

That's pretty humorous! --Fastfission 15:06, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Math problems

Insert non-formatted text hereI've had 24 math problems; of those, three I'm having difficulty with. Can anybody help out a little? Thanks. --(Anon)

1. $3a-(a-7)=15$
2. $4[m-3(2-m)-5]=-10(5-m)$
3. $(2/3)(2d-5)-(5/3)(4-d)=2$

1. $3a-(a-7)=15$

   This one's very easy I can't see why you are stuck on it. Expand the bracket (remember a - times a - is a +) collect terms then solve. Show your steps here and we will help you.

2. $4[m-3(2-m)-5]=-10(5-m)$

   Again you need to expand the brackets. Do the -3(2-m) first. Collect the terms that contain m on one side of the = and the constants on the other side. Solve.

3. $(2/3)(2d-5)-(5/3)(4-d)=2$

   Multipy both sides by 3 to get rid of those pesky fractions. Expand the brackets then solve.

If you show the steps in your working here we can help you if you go wrong. Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 15:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

See Order of operations. Once you have all of the parentheses taken care of, it should be relatively simple to isolate the variable on one side. James 15:22, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

1. $3a-a+7=15\ becomes\ 2a=8\,which\ is\ a=4.$
2. $4[m-6+3m-5]=-50+10m\ is\ equivalent\ to\ 4(4m-11)=-50+10m\ then,\ 16m-44=-50+10m.\ Finally,\ 6m=-6\ ,which\ ,of\ course,\ renders\ m=-1.$

I have done the first two of them; these are pre-algebra problems. The rest are solved similarly. --Karl

Can't insert my image in Latex file

Why is my latex code always coming back with an error?

I want to insert an image in my document. My code is

\begin{figure} [b]
\includegraphics[width=15cm]{Figures/fGA.eps}
\end{figure}

(simplified to its bare minium while I work out the bug). The compiler returns

Runaway argument?
width=15cm]{Figures/fGA.eps} \end {figure}
! Paragraph ended before \Gin@iii was complete.
<to be read again>
                   \par
1.46

?
! Emergency stop.

If I use the exact same code as above, but omit the "[width=15cm]", it works fine (except I get a warning that my image is too big). If I replace cm with mm or in, I still get the error, if I play with the spacing in the width command I still get the error.

Any advice? Thanks! -Mary

Did you \include{graphicx}? Otherwise try \resizebox{15cm}{!}{\includegraphics{Figures/fGA.eps}}. Cheers, --R.Koot 16:14, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Ahhh, "graficx" works. "Graphics", which I was originally using, must not like width arguments, or something. Thanks!

unidentified insect

• Top view
  Top view
• Bottom view
  Bottom view

Does anyone recognize this insect? I found it lying on the garden steps in Baltimore, on August 12, 2005; it had been killed and nibbled, probably by my sister's cat. The wings visible here span about 12 cm/5 in.; the second pair of wings was badly damaged, either by the cat or by the ants that were carrying away what was left. —Charles P. (Mirv) 16:07, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Looks like a common moth to me.

"recognize this insect" like, did we meet it while it was alive, or just the species? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:15, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

We need to inform its immediate family, don't we? ~~ N (t/c) 19:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes. At least we don't have to worry about them finding out by seeing its poor, mangled body here on Wikipedia: as any spider will tell you, insects don't even notice the web. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:36, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

My best guess is that it's an Eastern tiger swallowtail [3] [4] (minus the tail parts, of course). ¦ Reisio 19:27, 2005 August 14 (UTC)

Huge Problem in London, Please Help ASAP!

I have a major situation on my hands, and was hoping that somebody could help. I am currently in London near the Bayswater Underground Station. I need to get to the Stansted Airport for a flight that leaves at 6:45 (so I can't arrive later than 5:30 or so). The tube closes very early and I can't figure out how to do this. The best route I can find is:

Westbourne Grove Stop F Bus N7 towards Russell Square 2:55 Marble Arch Stop R Bus N73 to Victoria Then taking a National Express Bus to the Airport

However this is both expensive and I'm not too sure that it is a good idea to be walking around/waiting at bus stops in London at 3:00am. Any good alternatives? Thank you so much for your help.

If you're willing to go from Victoria, and you can write off sleeping much, you could go to Victoria (Bus) Station earlier on, before midnight, and wait there - it's lit and open through the night, I think. Here's bus times to Stanstead. Victoria bus station is a block away from Victoria Station - they're nearby, but not identically placed.

There's also a train out of Liverpool St. at 4.30am, apparently [5], but I don't know if the station's open overnight. Shimgray 19:30, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Phone national rail to find out when it's open: 08457 484950

International market/restaurant chains not in Finland

Why have so many international market/restaurant chains invaded pretty much all of Europe except for Finland? We don't have a single Burger King or Toys'R'Us, but there are plenty in Sweden and Norway. Also every time I visit a neighbouring country I see lots of sweets at the supermarket that aren't for sale in Finland. Even Estonia has those! We do have McDonald's pretty much everywhere, though, even including the world's northernmost one. But what is keeping the others away? Is it the high tax rate? Or are our own chains so strong the competition scares the others away? — JIP | Talk 20:11, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

yeah that finland has enough McDonald's i noticed while watching the two marathons recently during the world championships athletics. but as for the question, wouldn't the finish wiki make more sense for such a question? Boneyard 09:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

drug

i would like to know if you have any imformation about a drug for treating highblood pressure called LUOBUMA? And if it was approved by the FDA.

It looks like Luobuma is a tea extract, not a patented drug. See PMID 15516813 for an article on the antihypertensive effects. alteripse 22:19, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Unidentified anymal

File:Narwhal.JPG

We think it's a narwhal, but we're not sure. — Sebastian (talk) 22:24, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

LOL I think it's a radish or it could be a sweet potato Theresa Knott (a tenth stroke) 22:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Radish, unless it's some variety of beet with which I'm not familiar . -- Mothperson cocoon 23:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

You're both right (Theresa with her first guess), of course. Unfortunately, the thumbnail makes it less appear like a narwhal. I was inspired by this: [6] — Sebastian (talk) 04:39, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

What brand of tinfoil is best for making hats?

:-) Frenchman113 22:58, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

My favorite brand is Illuminati Foil. Be sure the hat's trilateral.... - Nunh-huh 23:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Always go for the best -- Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie. Zoe 20:46, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

bluestatbanner

would like to have wone

You would like a Blue Star Banner? I think you need to look at this noting that if you haven't got someone in your family serving in the US armed forces, it might be seriously frowned upon. Dunc|☺ 23:29, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

See Blue Star Service Banner Trollderella 22:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Another C++ Question

Okay I have Visual C++.NET 8 (2005 Express). I want to know if the syntax here differs from any in Visual C++ 6 (for which my dad has many books). If it does, can you point me to some useful books/info. about it (to learn it -- I am starting from almost-scratch, btw)? Also, how come I never see books on VC++.NET? I always see them on VB.NET or just .NET framework. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 02:12, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, can I still use MFC in VC++.NET 8, or am I forced to use CLR? — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 03:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

VC++6 is quite different from VC++.Net and you should get yourself a new book, or use microsoft's free online website MSDN. I think you can still use MFC, but if you're a beginner, forget it and use .NET - its a lot easier and has nearly all the same functions. Seabhcán 12:17, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The problem is I can't find a book specifically on C++.NET — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 15:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken all code that compiles under VC++ 6.0 should also compile under VC++.NET, including MFC. I would advice to start with console applications, until you are more adapt at C++ or be prepared to face an horrible time of compile errors, null pointer exceptions and stuff that mysteriously doesn't work. If you want to create UI applications I suggest learning Java. Java is much easier to learn and going from Java to C++ is a much smaller step than diving into C++ directly. --R.Koot 17:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

One reason you may not see so many books in particular versions of Visual C++ is that they are, at heart, just C++. There are lots of books on C++. It would be wise to learn completely standard C++ in any case, rather than first learn any Microsoft differences. On the other hand Visual Basic is both a product and a language. Notinasnaid 13:52, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Birth date?

Louis Gustave le Doulcet, Comte de Pontecoulant (1764-1853), French politician, was born at Caen on the 57th of November 1764. He began a career in the army in 1778.

Seems a bit unlikely. Rmhermen 03:12, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

• I first expected it to be sneaky vandalism, but the typo seems to have been there from the start. I've contacted the original author and ask them to correct it. - Mgm|^(talk) 05:39, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I suspect it was a scanno from the 1911 but from a quick google I couldn't find any with a correct data. Rmhermen 13:21, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Fixed, it, I think, but see the article's talk page. Lupo 15:17, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Poe Poems - To ___________?

This might be a stupid question but I have always wondered why some of Poe's poems appear in published books entitled "To _______" or "To F_______s S. O________d" or a published letter of his is always called "Letter to B______". Are these "censored" for a reason? Were those parts of the title not readable and therefore the underscore is substituted? (The latter seems most unlikely). Is there another reason entirely for the "mystery?" (I know we are dealing with Poe here afterall =)

I posted this before with no response - so if you can't help out, can you at least respond saying that you have no idea and that my puzzlement isn't entirely silly? Thank you very much. --Nadsat 03:32, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

It was answered. Perhaps you missed the response, which was along the lines of "at the time, it was traditional to obscure the identities of living persons in published books by indicating only their initials followed by an underscore. Poe was trying to enhance the verisimilitude of his fiction by applying a convention used for living persons to fictional characters.". The titles were intentional, not censored or illegible. - Nunh-huh 03:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I could've sworn I've seen this answered before - did you try looking in the archive? That said, I have discovered that some answers (on other subjects) that I have posted here before did not show up, yet appear on my list of user contributions! (I'll have to ask the Wikipedia:Help Desk about that one.) TresÁrboles 03:44, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I answered it on July 23 as follows: This was not Poe being idiosyncratic, nor were the titles censored by an editor or anyone else. It was common in the 19th century to refer to a real person mentioned in a literary work by only an initial. Presumably it was considered a matter of delicacy or reserve or preservation of privacy. Names were used in news despatches or frankly biographical or historical accounts. The extreme was reached in the fiction of the latter 19th century, when many authors, especially in Europe, began referring to fictional characters as, for example, "S___" in order to amplify the verisimilitude that a real person was being alluded to. You can find many examples in Russian and French novels all the way to the early 20th century. alteripse 09:03, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank you so much everyone for your responses! I apologize Alteripse, TresArboles, and Nunh-huh - I must have missed the response and when I tried to look back I could have sworn I did not see a response had been made. Thank you so very much, yet again - Wikipedia Reference Desk to the rescue! =) --Nadsat 05:33, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Simon in UK and USA

Is the name Simon only used in the UK, and not the USA? There's Simon Furman, Simon Moon (Daphne Moon's brother), Simon the Sorcerer, my little brother's friend's little brother Simon, my former work colleague Simon, and all of them are British. I don't think I've ever heard of an American Simon. Are there any? — JIP | Talk 20:16, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

In the "name samples" [7] from the 1990 US census, Simon was about the 400th most common male first name, shared by 0.026% of the population. If that holds nationally (it might be skewed by chance, in a small sample), there should be about 75,000 across the USA. For comparison, there were about 185,000 Simons on the UK electoral roll in 2001; this doesn't include people under 18, of course, so the number would likely be upwards of 200,000. Shimgray 20:22, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Simon the Sorcerer isn't British. He was Roman! Simon is a very old name. Rmhermen 23:16, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

I think its popularity in the US is illustrated by the fact that it is listed as being between "Leland" and "Guadalupe" in popularity. Dunc|☺ 23:24, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

In that case, it might actually be on the rise. According to the Social Security Administration, it was 256th most common for boys born in 2004. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I imagine that rise is directly related to the appearence on Simon Cowell on American TV. Zoe 20:41, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

I was actually referring to the computer game, which is British. — JIP | Talk 04:25, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Simon isn't that popular, but the name is known from Simon Says. For a name that will be regarded as incorrigibly British, try "Nigel" (#886 on that list of U.S. male names!). (Sorry, Nigels) TresÁrboles 03:40, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

"Fergus" is even less likely for an American. It isn't even on the list! (Sorry, Fergii) TresÁrboles 14:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Traditionally in North America Simon was seen as a distinctively Jewish name. If you look through List of American Jews you will find a fair number of Simons, both as a first and last name. My impression is that this is not so much true today, but it is still a view held some older generations. When I was born in 1981, several older relatives were not wholly pleased with my name for this reason. - SimonP 17:33, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

"Fergus" isn't at all common in the UK either. Dmn € Դմն 15:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Colored spots in the dark

What is the name of those colored spots and patterns you see before your eyes in the dark, or when you close your eyes? I don't mean floaters.

Perhaps you're looking for afterimage? -- Rick Block (talk) 04:24, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Or maybe phosphenes... Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm thinking maybe they're phosphenes, but the article states that their only source is by pressing on your eyes or getting hit on the head. I regularly see moving grids of violet and blue polka dots, as well as red dots, if I close my eyes for a while or stare off into the dark when I'm going to sleep. I can usually only see them in my peripheral vision; if I try to focus on them they disappear. Is this the same thing?

I've always understood them to be phosphenes. I get that too where you have a display of colors in your eyes with your eyes closed in a dark room. I've also heard that it has something to do with the blood vessels in your eyelids putting minute pressures on your eyeball. Dismas 05:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

tennis

have any australians been seeded number one in the world since 2000

Yes, Lleyton Hewitt was ranked number 1 in 2001. See his ATP player profile here. The highest ranking Australian woman of recent years is Alicia Molik, with a highest ranking of number 8 in February this year. --Robert Merkel 07:08, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

American names unpopular in the UK

In regard to the Simon question, are there any American names that are not popular in the UK? Names like "Billy Bob" or "Suzie Mae" don't count. =) — JIP | Talk 06:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The most obvious one to me is "Chuck" - I know of no native English people with this name. Also (whatever) Junior is much less popular this side of the Atlantic than in the USA. Thryduulf 08:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Neither of those are really names (in general use). Chuck is just a variant nickname for Charles, and the origin of "Junior" should be obvious. -- Cyrius|✎ 08:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

My comment about Junior was that calling someone e.g. Charles Junior or William Junior is much less common in England than in the US. Thryduulf 10:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Randy would not be a good name in New Zealand, or I suspect other Commonwealth countries. Here it means the same thing as "horny". There are also a number of American names which have surprised me - for example I corresponded with someone about business for quite sometime before I realised that Ruby was a male name. In general, gemstones are female names.-gadfium 08:41, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

"Ruby" an American male name? I think that would surprise most Americans. Maybe it was "Rudy" (#359 on the list). TresÁrboles 15:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it was a contraction of Reuben.-gadfium 03:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe Hank (another stereotypical American name) is short for Henry, which is widely used in the UK. Scanning through the most popular US boy's names list, the first ones that strike me as not used in the UK (other than Hispanic names such as Jose and Juan) are indeed Randy (#78 in the US), Jesse (#89, and probably because 'jessie' is an insult in the UK) and Earl (#98). Oh, and Willie (#61) - probably because 'willy' is a children's word for the penis. Some aren't anywhere nearly as widely used, such as Jerry, Brandon and Clarence. Shockingly, Chip isn't one of the 1219 most popular names in the U.S. And Buck is only 1205th. This is contrary to the British stereotype fo Americans. Proto t c 09:10, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

In general, gemstones are female names, I would think... Along those lines, I once knew a male "Bernice" which here in the states is commonly a female name. Dismas 10:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

"Willy" means that here, too. I have no idea why parents persist in giving it as a name to their children. It's not a very common name, though. It's occasionally used as a nickname, but I don't actually know anyone with that name. A lot of the names that have come up are like that—the youngest "Hank" I know has a son in his 20s. This site is a good reference for names that currently being given. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Willie Thorne is English, but don't know how common the name is. Short for William, of course. Ojw 18:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

• My great-grandfather's actual name was Willie, which is what the VA used when they supplied his grave marker. PedanticallySpeaking 17:55, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

"Elmer" is the one that comes immediately to mind: the only Elmer I've ever come across is Elmer Fudd. "Homer" always used to be utterly American as well, but I wonder whether The Simpsons might have changed that just a little, though I don't recall ever meeting a British Homer.

I was going to say that "Elmer" is a name that's hardly seen anymore.. but then I was shocked by its appearance in the list at #218! This is a name that brings to mind a 70-year old farmer wearing overalls (sorry Elmers). TresÁrboles 15:18, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Note that this isn't a list of "popular boy's names", it's a list of names currently in use - so if the name was very popular fifty, sixty, seventy years ago and then fell out of favour, it'll still show up quite prominently because most of the people with it are still alive. Shimgray 15:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Some of those Elmers may be in hiding. I remember a teacher who used his initials instead of Elmer - and this was over twenty years ago. TresÁrboles 16:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Please, please, please tell me tha parents aren't honestly naming their children after Homer Simpson. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:57, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

African Americans often use names which are hardly ever used by other populations. I don't think blacks in other countries would use these names either; in France, for example, don't they use the same French names as other Frenchmen? Do a Google search on "black names" for articles like this or this for an intro to the topic. TresÁrboles 16:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Can I make my own template?

I want to make a little template of my own to use on my user page. Is there any way I can do this without adding it to the pile of Wikipedia templates? CanadaGirl

• Yes, you can include subpages of your user space the same way you can include templates. Make a page (for example: User:CanadaGirl/Template). You can then include this template anywhere by using {{User:CanadaGirl/Template}} to include a link to the template which will refresh at every load or {{subst:User:CanadaGirl/Template}} to insert the text that's there at the moment of the save. BTW, please sign your posts on talk pages (like this one) with four tildes (~~~~). - Mgm|^(talk) 07:21, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

• Be aware that userspace templates do not refresh the way standard templates do. For example, if you create template X in your userspace and add it to page Z, when you make a change to template X, page Z will continue to display it the way it was before the change, unless you manually purge the server cache or edit page Z. You can manually purge the server cache by clicking the "edit" like and changing the "edit" ending in the address bar to "purge." Also, after doing so, you can copy the URL from the address bar and create a link for easy access. I use a userspace template to include a status indicator on my user/talk pages, and I have shortcut links on the templates' talk page. See here: User:Essjay/Status and User talk:Essjay/Status. This is not necessary with templates in the Template: namespace, as they are set to automatically purge server cache whenever they are altered. -- Essjay · Talk 07:31, August 15, 2005 (UTC)
  • Alternatively, you can insert {{purge|Refresh}} somewhere on page Z to have a link to clear the cache. This makes it a little easier, IMO. --Pidgeot (t) (c) (e) 13:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
    • However, if you are only going to use the template in one place (on your user page), there is not much point in making it a template. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:45, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Motor Racing - Reverse Grid

Are there any premier class (i.e. top level) racing forms around the world that use the concept of reverse grid (where the finishing order of the previous race/session is reversed for the start of the next race)? The development class of touring car racing in Australia does, but is it an unfeasible idea for the top racing classes? --Ballchef 06:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I suspect that doing this would result in a whole lot of fast cars trying very hard to pass a whole lot of slow cars, all at once at the start of the race, which would probably result in a very high accident rate. DJ Clayworth 20:14, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

V8 Supercar proper tried it at a number of events in the past few years, where one of three sprint races over the weekend was reverse-gridded. It was not popular with drivers. --Robert Merkel 00:28, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe it's done sometimes on three-race events in the British Touring Car Championship, though I have a feeling that only the top ten are reversed, not the entire grid. Loganberry (Talk) 09:13, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Quick question on conversion

The volume of bismuth is 15,598,531 pm³ or 15µm³ right?

Depends on how much bismuth there is. But the conversion above is wrong: 15,598,531 pm³ is actually about 0.015 nm ³ or only about 0.000000000015 µm³. For cubed units, the conversion factors are also cubed - this means that a factor of one thousand becomes a factor of one milliard (or one billion for Yankees). — JIP | Talk 09:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Well thank you very much, I was meaning the volume of bismuth assuming it is a sphere and using it's atomic radius.

One more question, 1 cm³ = 1 x 10^-33 pm³ ?

Sorry the other way around 1 pm³ = 1 x 10^-33 cm³

Well, 1 pm³ = 10^-36 m³, and 1 cm³ = 10^-6 m³, so 1 pm³ = 10^-30 cm³. — JIP | Talk 10:29, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Republika Srpska Krajina Dinara

Dear Wikipedia,

I need reference on the RSK Dinara.The RSK has fallen according to your info.What happens if I own a RSK dinara banknote?Can I exchange it for a valid currency?Thank you.I appreaciate any information that you can help with this.

I highly doubt that you can exchange these, except as souvenirs. The Republic of Serbian Krajina used either the Yugoslav Dinar or the Deutchmark alongside the RSK dinar because of hyperinflation issues. The RSK issued the Krajina Reformed Dinar (HRKR), in parallel with the Yugoslav Reformed Dinar in July 1992, then the October Dinar (HRKO), first issued on October 1, 1993 and equal to 1,000,000 Reformed Dinar, and the 1994 Dinar, first issued on January 1, 1994 and equal to 1,000,000,000 October Dinar. Your best bet would be to sell what you have on ebay to currency collectors. Trollderella 15:28, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. RSK dinars have no value except as collectible items. A paper currency must have a recognised authority behind it in order to have value (usually a government, or some other trusted organisation e.g. the Scottish banks today, or in the hyperinflation times, local communities in Germany). The RSK government was destroyed in 1995, and even when it existed it had little success in maintaining its currency's value (see Trollderella's figures above). -- Arwel 16:53, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Getting LaTeX equations to line up

(I'm sorry I keep asking LaTeX questions here - I haven't yet found a latex forum where people are as nice and helpful as here)

I'm trying to get three equations lined up. Normally, I'd use an array, but these equations already use arrays. I've tried nesting them, but haven't managed to get anything to work yet.

How would I get the following equations to line up with the equals signs one on top of the other?

\[F_i(t) = \mbox{field of source $i$ at time $t$}\]
 
 \[D_i(t) = \left\{
 \begin{array}{l l}
 \frac{|F_i(t) - F_i(t - 1)|}{F_i(t - 1)} & \quad \mbox{: $F_i(t - 1) > 0$}\\
 0.05 & \quad \mbox{: otherwise}\\ \end{array} \right.\]
   
 \[Q_i(t) = \left\{
 \begin{array}{l l l}
 \alpha \frac{D_i(t)}{\sum_{j} D_j(t)} + (1 - \alpha) & \frac{F_i(t)}{\sum_{j}F_j(t)} & \quad \mbox{: $\sum_{j} D_j(t) > 0$}\\
 & \frac{F_i(t)}{\sum_{j}F_j(t)} & \quad \mbox{: otherwise}\\ \end{array} \right.\]

(Raw code shown since I can't get Wikipedia to parse it...)

Any help really appreciated! Thanks very much, --Mary

You should be able to do it with nesting arrays. Just make sure you work out whether math tags go inside or outside the array. The following works for me:

\[
 \begin{array}{l l}
 F_i(t) = & \mbox{field of source $i$ at time $t$}\\ 
 
 D_i(t) = & \left\{
 \begin{array}{l l}
   \frac{|F_i(t) - F_i(t - 1)|}{F_i(t - 1)} & \quad \mbox{: $F_i(t - 1) > 0$}\\
   0.05 & \quad \mbox{: otherwise}\\ \end{array} \right.\\
   
 Q_i(t) = & \left\{
 \begin{array}{l l l}
   \alpha \frac{D_i(t)}{\sum_{j} D_j(t)} + (1 - \alpha) & \frac{F_i(t)}{\sum_{j}F_j(t)} & \quad \mbox{: $\sum_{j} D_j(t) > 0$}\\
   & \frac{F_i(t)}{\sum_{j}F_j(t)} & \quad \mbox{: otherwise}\\ \end{array} \right.\\
 \end{array}
 \]

That should be what you were looking for. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 14:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Great, that works! Thanks! Final question: When I use hyphens in LaTeX within a word, like "twenty-three", LaTeX pushes the second word into the hyphen, so that they overlap. What can I do to prevent this? I'm using \usepackage{palatino} and compiling straight to pdf using pdflatex (as I use png's in my document). Any help? --Mary

There is a similar problem that occured only when viewing the docuemnt with Gostscript 7. Upgrading to version 8 or using Arcobat Reader should resolve it. --R.Koot 17:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Ah, that works! Thanks, --Mary

maximum amount of work hours

I would greatly appreciate any information that u have with respect to the maximum amount of hours that a person is allowed to work for any period (24 hours, 1 week or 1 month). If there is an international standard or a specific one for the country i am in, which is trinidad and tobago, this will greatly help me and my fellow employees. Thanking u in advance for your assistance in this matter.

Sincerely, S. Boodoo

i think it would be wise for you to contact your local union rep on this matter. this links has info different unions and general information on working safety. Boneyard 15:01, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

http://nugfw.org.tt/LabourLinks/trinidad_tobago_labourlinks.htm

In the European Union, the maximum is 48 hours per week, although certain countries still have a law where you can volunteer to opt out of this. You might also like to look at List of topics on working time and conditions. Proto t c 15:05, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Given the EU regulations, I've long been curious about the position of a person who chooses to take two jobs, totalling more than 48 hours. Is this (a) perfectly fine (b) a breach of regulations by the employee, who isn't supposed to do this (c) a breach of regulations by the employers, who are supposed to be diligent about this or (d) none of the above? Notinasnaid 19:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I know for a fact there is no overall standard in the US at least. There was a big change when medical doctor resident training programs set work hours standards and reduced the hours they could work to average 80 a week and 30 hours straight (How generous of them). I know for a fact some programs still regularly exceed this and some have already lost their accredidation for it. - Taxman ^Talk 20:08, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

There is no federal maximum at all in the United States, though for most positions, you must pay time and a half for everything past 40 hours. A list of exempt employees is available here. I recall that if you are in a position that is on call for 24 hours a day, you must have 24 hours off in a row every week, but I can't seem to find anything about that on the DOL website. This is far less strict than the EU, which requires

1. a minimum daily rest period * of 11 consecutive hours per 24-hour period;
2. a rest break, where the working day is longer than six hours;
3. a minimum uninterrupted rest period of 24 hours for each seven-day period, which is added to the 11 hours' daily rest;
4. maximum weekly working time of 48 hours, including overtime;
5. paid annual leave of at least four weeks.

This site says the commission recommends making it possible to opt-out of the maximum. James 08:00, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Identification of a nonfiction Pocket Book by Asimov.

I am attempting to identify a book I obtained circa 1970s, then lost. Its was Asimov's inventory of great innovations in the Western World starting from about 3000 BC. If I remember correctly, it documented about 1800 innovations worthy of the catalog. Please help. charliet

Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of Science and Technology? Published in 1972. What do you want to know? Trollderella 17:06, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Carbon monoxide: Lighter than air?

I'm mounting carbon monoxide detectors in my boat. Typically, the average ambient temperature is 85 degrees farenhite and the altitude is 357 feet above mean sea level. Do I mount the detectors high or low in the boat, i.e., is the CO lighter or heavier than the air in the vessel?

A very similar question is asked here. The basic answer is that you should position the sensor in a place where you can hear it and where you can anticipate the possiblity of a CO leak. This is because air and CO have very similar densities, and normal air currents and entropy in general will encourage mixing. I would imagine it applies to your situation as well, of course not being a physicist in any sense of the word, I can't say with 100% confidence that your temperature and pressure measurements will not matter, but they don't seem all that extreme. --CVaneg 16:52, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Fixed carbon monoxide detectors should be mounted at head height or slightly higher. Carbon monoxide is very slightly lighter than air (whatever the temperature and altitude), but not so much so as to cause pockets to form under normal circumstances (mixing is usually very efficient). More important is to mount the sensor where it will not receive splashes of liquid (particularly oil or alcohol). Most industrial detectors are set at around 30-50 ppm, depending on the country (probably 50 ppm in the US, as this is the Permissible exposure limit): this gives a good safety margin for sleeping, as it is set to avoid problems with long term exposure. Check with the supplier of the detector to see whether it needs recalibrating from time to time. Physchim62 01:25, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Just to reiterate what CVaneg and Physchim62 have said, consider the following. For ideal gases (and nitrogen, oxygen, and carbon monoxide under atmospheric conditions are pretty darn close to "ideal" behavior), the density of a gas at a given temperature and pressure is directly proportional to the molecular weight of the gas. The molecular weight of carbon monoxide (28.010) is virtually identical to the molecular weight of nitrogen gas (28.014). Oxygen gas has a notably higher molecular weight (31.998), and yet the oxygen in the atmosphere doesn't separate out from the nitrogen and sink to the ground! If the difference between oxygen and nitrogen isn't enough to cause a separation under atmospheric conditions, the difference between carbon monoxide and a nitrogen-oxygen mixture certainly isn't, either. Chuck 17:02, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Satalite Photos

Does anyone know where I could find hi-res satalite photos of the NYC tri state area, minus any type of water marking or pixelation? so not google, and not blue marble, something hi res, and close up -- anon

TerraServer maybe? Alternatively, depending on what you're looking for, the USGS has some other alternatives. [8], [9]

What is the code for a random number generator in C++?

I need the code for a program... it needs to be able to make digits 0-9. Thank you. 65.37.93.12 18:36, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Look up the rand() function. Here's a sample:

#include <cstdlib>
#include <ctime>
#include <iostream>

int main() {
        std::srand(std::time(NULL));
        std::cout << (std::rand() % 10) << std::endl;
        return 0;
}

~~ N (t/c) 18:55, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Corrected your code. Changed a "9" to a "10" so that it really generates numbers from 0 to 9. Jeltz talk 19:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Doesn't rand() still use a horrible RNG? (I don't have the code handy to check) Maybe it's better now, but depending on your purpose, if you need really good random numbers you may want to look at the Mersenne twister or if crypto is the issue, Blum Blum Shub.

rand(), in my experience, generates the same pattern or numbers when given the same seed. Also, you can put using namespace std; after the #includes instead of putting std:: before every function.

crude oil - barrel

How much gasoline, kerosene, diesel, paraffin, or other extractant can one get from a single barrel of oil? In other words, when I use a gallon of gasoline, am I using up a gallon of crude oil? anon.

A quick google search revealed this well-illustrated page. Finished motor gasoline (I'm not sure if that includes diesel or not) is 51.4% of the total, according to that page. kmccoy (talk) 01:29, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It does not. Diesel is included under "distillate fuel oil". -- Cyrius|✎ 04:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks, Cyrius. :) I should also mention that the site where the 51.4% number comes from is specific to California (although I would guess the number doesn't differ that much from place to place) and it comes from a total slightly larger than a barrel of crude oil, because of the extra stuff they add in the process. Check out the link I give above for details. kmccoy (talk) 04:41, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It will change a lot from place to place.Geni 10:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Great page. Also worth noting is that from straight distillation of crude oil, the percentages would be very different from those on that page. The reason is that since gasoline is in much higher demand than diesel and other fuel oils, a lot of catalytic cracking is done to break up the larger chains into ones more compatible with gasoline. See oil refinery for details. So different demand profiles, such as in Europe, may yield a quite different profile. Also, crude itself varies so those numbers carry way too much precision if you think of them as anything other than a reporting of one years average refining results from CA. Still, the numbers are great for the purpose of the original question, to get a general idea of the amounts. - Taxman ^Talk 12:59, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Semi trucks

Why do semi trucks have the prefix "semi" in front of it? Andrea

Semi-trailer explains that the trailer is known as a "semi trailer" because it carries only half of its weight -- the other half is carried by the power unit, or the tractor. The entire thing is known as a "truck", and calling it a "semi truck" indicates that it includes a semi-trailer. This is as opposed to, for example, a "straight truck", which has no trailer. kmccoy (talk) 00:57, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

What is tree-level mass?

Quote: [...] neutrino has zero tree-level mass

what "tree-level" means, in layman lingo? My guess is that this has something to do with Pertubative Expansion (1-level (1st-order), 2-level (2nd order), 3-level (3rd order) aproximations, corrections) and that the author had made a typo (...or not).

Can some one give-me a clue? Even if you dont have expertise at the field, I would apreciate your answer (any answer).

Your hunch is basically correct. In quantum field theory, many models must be renormalized in order to make physical sense. When you renormalize, you change some of the physical parameters of the theory (like mass or coupling constant). Quantities in field theory are usually calculated perturbatively, meaning you first look at the Feynman diagrams with no loops (this is tree level). If you only consider tree level diagrams, there are no divergences and so renormalization is not necessary, but tree level diagrams do not have access to a lot of the interesting physics (nonperturbative effects). When one considers one loop diagrams, there may be divergent integrals which must be renormalized. So the theory you get when considering one loop diagrams might have mass, even though the classical theory and tree level theory was massless. If the theory is renormalizable, then you don't have to renormalize again, though you can get modifications to your mass at higher order diagrams. -Lethe | Talk 03:33, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It's worth noting that the most commonly accepted model of neutrino mass assigns nonzero tree level mass, though the zero tree level mass has its fans. -Lethe | Talk 03:50, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Chemistry question

An empirical formula can be written for copper(II) oxide but not a molecular formula. Why not?

• Because it is an ionic substance. It is kept together by opposite charges instead of molecular bonds. If it hasn't got a molecular bond, it's technically speaking not a molecule and therefore it can't have a molecular formula. - Mgm|^(talk) 11:37, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
  • partially correct, except that in solution copper(II)oxide would probably complex with a counter ion, and form a ligand--172.130.8.51 16:08, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What are the symptoms of appendicitis?

What are the symptoms of appendicitis?

As I remember, (I was a lot younger back then!) appendicitis starts with pain in the centre of the abdomen, and spreads to the right hand side. Also fever, and your side would be very tender. Must be caught earlier, as peritionitis (sp?) can occur, where the appendix bursts, so if you have a suspicion of appendicitis, get to your nearest doctor / hospital immediately. Proto t c 15:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

What are the symptoms of appendicitis?

peritonitis, I think ? Pretty much that, and also, the appendice should get somewhat hard and very painful to palpation. Rovsing's sign (pain felt in the right iliac fossa on pressing over the left iliac fossa) might be present. Typical intermediary symptoms include fever, tachycardia, distress, foetor oris. Rama 15:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Reference Desk is not a great place for medical diagnosis (and there are discliamers that say so). If you are experiencing major abdominal pain, and it's getting worse, not better, then by all means see a real doctor! I do know that appendicitis is very treatable, but the sooner it is treated, the better. (If it hasn't gotten any better by the time I'm typing this, then what are you doing on the computer?) -Aranel ("Sarah") 22:20, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

What are..

there any ways to block people, not their ip, but to actually reslove it to a specific region or computer, and block them not their ip, would cut down on a lot of vandalism--I-2-d2 15:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

well, here's an idea, you could try NOT acusing every jo shmo anon of being part of the great wiki vandalism consipracy oh and, "jello nurple yellow" is NOT a font color -- anon 12:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

As far as I know, the only way it would be possible to do this would be to go through their ISP and get them to take action. Thryduulf 17:24, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Edmund Lord Lyons, Admiral. G.C.B. 1790 - 1858

I am interested in tracing a distant relative of mine, and not sure where to start.

Can you please give me any advice on where to go, websites to look up, to get details of Edmund Lyons Family Tree.

The only infomation I have been able to glean so far, is his achievments in life, but nothing on immediate family members.

Thank you for time in this matter, and appreciate any help and/or advice given.

Regards Mrs Pauline Tilley email removed

Have you seen our article, Edmund Lyons, 1st Baron Lyons, which has lots of biographical details. For someone so distinguished, the National Archives in Kew should be able to help, as well as the usual sources (Family Records Centre in central London, etc: most of his life was before statutory BMD recording in England, but there are the early censuses and parish records, and his Navy career should be well documented in any event). -- ALoan (Talk)

Photos and the law

At Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion, there's been a debate over whether to include photos, of, say, masturbation or similar subject matter. One issue that came up is whether or not hosting these images violates the law, since WP has no age verification system. Obviously, this isn't a request for formal legal advice--but are there any lawyers out there who could comment on this? Images in question include Image:Vibe.jpg (woman with vibrator) and Image:Handj.jpg (man masturbating). Thanks in advance, Meelar (talk) 16:32, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I recollect that last time this issue was floated that it was deemed we were fine. I can't remember where that was, though... Shimgray 17:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

It's come up since on wikien-l:

...We could show full-blown mainstream pornography on the main page of Wikipedia 24 hours a day and not be in violation of any laws in the United States. It is pretty difficult to come up with something which is legally "obscene" by US standards in the context of Wikipedia. And our own internal processes seem so far quite adequate to keep us very far from that. - Jimbo Wales.

Creation of Wikipedia

When was Wikipedia created? Is Wikipedia also the creator of ChemistryDaily.com? If so when was Chemistry Daily created? How can I see when a certain article was originally created. Shannon L.

For history, see the article Wikipedia. ChemistryDaily is one of the many mirrors that reuses wikipedia's content (and doesn't seem to comply with the terms of the GFDL, so not a very ethical mirror). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:54, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

And you can see when a certain article was initially created by clicking on the "history" link up at the top of the page. With some articles you have to go back pretty far. But every edit will be listed, including the initial creation of the article. Dismas 19:36, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

To quickly find the page's first creation date, click on "Earliest" (after clicking "History"), then scroll all the way to the bottom. The bottom-most row will feature the page's original creation date.Garrett Albright 19:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

And the front page says the Wikipedia was created in 2001. --bodnotbod 22:35, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

altitude and temperature

Why does temperature decrease with an increase in altitude (in the troposphere of course) ? I found a mention of it in Earth's atmosphere. It says the phenomenon is called expansive cooling but thats a red link. Jay 18:08, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, guessing from the name, I would say it has something to do with atmospheric pressure. The pressure is lower at high altitudes, and according to the ideal gas law, as pressure goes down, temperature decreases as well. Meelar (talk) 18:16, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

The red link should have pointed to Joule-Thomson effect (it does now). However, I don't think this is correct (the thermodynamics in that section of Earth's atmosphere look decidedly iffy to me), so I will try to do a quick explanation here. The troposphere is not heated directly by the sun: any radiation from the sun which can be absorbed by the atmosphere has already been filtered out in the thermosphere and (especially) the stratosphere. The troposphere is heated directly by the Earth's surface. The heating effect decreases as you move away from the Earth's surface, and so the temperature decreases. Anyone else want to fill out the vast simplifications I've made there? Physchim62 00:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Check out this neat graph here from the atmosphere article --HappyCamper 01:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe this might help answer part of the question? --HappyCamper 01:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Not really, except to show that there is no relation between pressure (roughly proportional to mass density, especially given the log scale) and temperature for the Earth's atmosphere. Enlighten us, please, Happy Camper, I've known you more inspired ;P Physchim62 01:59, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Was in a rush yesterday, see below... :) --HappyCamper 10:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Nice plot: you can really see the different layers in the temperature. I remember a particularly painful exam which included basically this question, but all it taught me is that you shouldn't expect people to learn anything new (like say whether expansive cooling alone can explain the observed temperature drop) in a high time pressure environment. --Laura Scudder | Talk 07:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't really know much about the atmosphere, but I think one major contributor to the temperature inversion in the second layer (the stratosphere) is the presence of ozone at the bottom of it. Ozone is highest in concentration in this area. Its absorption of ultraviolet light is essentially dissipated as heat which I think rises away from the earth instead of sinking down to the earth. What I don't understand is how this causes the temperature to go up so significantly. Ozone must be dissipating a tremendous amount of energy! I'm not sure what happens at the top. I guess the temperature that is being plotted is the "kinetic temperature". The density of matter at that region is so low that this particular notion of temperature probably would be less meaningful. I guess what's really important to recognize is that the atmosphere is not at all homogeneous. I might also add that commercial airlines' flight routes will fly in the stratosphere because the air mass there is quite stable. --HappyCamper 10:23, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

You're right about the contribution of ozone to stratospheric warming, although I would guess that oxygen and nitrogen play their part as well, at their particular absorption frequencies. What is clear is that N2 and O2 are not heated in the troposphere, as there is no longer any radiation of the correct wavelength. Yes, the ozone layer absorbs (and hence eventually dissipates) a tremendous amount of energy! Half of it is re-emitted towards the Earth's surface (the greenhouse effect), half of it into space. And yes, I assume they are defining temperature in the upper atmosphere with regards to the speed distribution of the few gas molecules which are there. Physchim62 02:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Ooooh! Check this link out! [10] All sorts of chemical species in the atmosphere here. --HappyCamper 02:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

How does loss of green space affect ozone?

As we all know, green space produces oxygen and absorbs carbon dioxide. Both being major players in the atmosphere and greenhouse affect. What about the ozone layer?

I was wondering how the cycles of Fall's natural defoliation (loss of leaves and plants) and Spring's blossoming and refoliation (increase of flowers, leaves and plants), affects the ozone layer and it's holes. Could the accumulative effects of Fall and Winter be showing up by Springtime (slowed by cooler atmospheric temperatures), and therefore the effects of Spring's bounty be showing up by Summertime (speeded up by warmer temps.)? Or is the dying off of the grasses, etc. in Summer's heat causing a problem? Has this ever been studied?

Do these things affect the size of the ozone holes? And are they involved in the loss, and increase, in atmospheric ozone during the year? Therefore, influencing the fluctuation of the holes?

Being an enclosed environment, mathematics and science should indicate if there is such an occurrence. Not only has the amount of land covered by green space been diminished, but also the overall height of that space, as well as the variety of the plants incorporated into it. The sum of the height, width, depth TIMES both sides of the surface which to varying degrees produce or absorb, the oxygen or carbon dioxide. THEN in relation to NOW.

Does the oxygen released by this green space eventually turn into ozone? I was told it was from the oceans; but if that is the case, then why are we now finding vast dead zones in our oceans? Is it just the plantlife in the oceans that replace it?

Human activities such as deforestation and development also decreases green space, reducing its ability to produce oxygen and decrease carbon dioxide. This must affect the ozone layer I'm sure. Sort of a Catch22. By depleting green space, our oxygen is depleted, the carbon dioxide in the air increased. The very gas, carbon dioxide, which it absorbs, green space releases as it decays or is burnt. (see photosynthesis) Has the accumulated gain and losses over the centuries finally taken a toll on the system? Taking into account both the more permanent factors of development, as well as the variability of the green space. Are we just seeing the beginning of these effects? How are such things calculated?

Signed Martina Herrick

• Easy, it doesn't, ozone has been around for many thousands of years, and no matter how often you hear this on TV, human beings aren't exactly going to change that--I-2-d2 18:59, 16 August 2005 (UTC) *[ This is mere conjecture not fact!! ]

I'm not a climatologist, but I am chemically literate. Ozone is formed in the upper atmosphere when oxygen molecules (O2) are hit by UVc, forming O+O. The O, a free radical, readily attaches to another O2 molecule. Ozone depletion is caused by chemicals in the upper atmosphere which catalize the disintegration of O3 molecules. A decrease in global O2 concentration would have an effect on Ozone, but compared to the catalitic effect of Cl and Br compounds, it would seem to be relatively minor. If there were any decrease in global O2 concentration to the point that it would effect ozone, the first hint would be have massive algea blooms, I expect. But we'd all be dead, so don't worry about it.  ::[ So it would seem it is an accumulation of all these effects. Have you heard the latest? It seems we have been having larger and larger algae blooms. smart you are. :) ]::

One MAJOR fallacy in what you wrote is that you confused temperature changes with the Ozone hole. These are two totally seperate things. Two relatively good wikipedia articles to read are Ozone depletion and Climate change  ::[[[ I did not confuse the two merely ask if there was a correlation between their movements ]]]:: Hipocrite 19:15, 16 August 2005 (UTC) I changed the caps to sentence case in wikilink Climate change. The author may have meant what is now global warming NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:40, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

If you say so--I-2-d2 19:48, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

This is the reference desk, we help people answer questions. Please leave your politics at the door, thanks. --Darkfred ^{Talk to me} 23:08, 16 August 2005 (UTC)  ::::No politics, just a scientific inquiry ::::

The loss of green space does not significantly affect the levels of oxygen in the atmosphere, although it may contribute (slightly) to rise in carbon dioxide levels. If that seems illogical to you, don't forget that there is roughly 600 times more oxygen in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide. There is a hypothesis that climate change may worsen the Antarctic ozone hole (by changing the altitudes of formation of ice clouds), but for the moment it is no more than a (plausible) idea. Physchim62 01:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

This hypothesis about ice clouds is the result of some ongoing research detailing the kinetics behind the breakdown of ozone in the atmosphere. There is emperical evidence that the surface of the individual droplets which make up ice clouds act as a catalyst in the reaction...See for example [11]. --HappyCamper 10:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, more precisely, as a reservoir. But this effect is catalysed by the presence of ice. --HappyCamper 10:31, 17 August 2005 (UTC)  ::::So it would seem temperature IS relative then. ::::

The media often mixes up global warming/climate change (which has a strong connection to carbon dioxide, and an arguable connection to trees) with the ozone layer (which has no connection to any of these things). They are not significantly connected, or if they are the media never draws out this connection. Notinasnaid 19:01, 17 August 2005 (UTC)  :[ Why haven't we looked into a possible connection? It sounds plausible. ]:

The relation between GW and OD is also discussed at global warming. Small note: changes in the O2 levels in that atmos are obs, and correspond to what you would expect, given the inc in CO2. I think. William M. Connolley 14:03:32, 2005-08-20 (UTC).

Thanks from Martina Herrick

Sam chon do

Is there any article about "sam chon do"? I encountered it when reading a Russian site(сам чон до),http://www.hvan.ru/ and I am unsure of the transliteration into English.

I am currently educating myself on Russian via language tapes and workbooks for the written word. сам - ? чон - itself до - to

The word I am unfamiliar with does not have the usual verb conjugation, is too short to be an uncommon adjective or adverb so I am almost certain it is a noun. However I am not certain as to what the noun is.

I suspect it's at least related to Sambo (martial art). -- Rick Block (talk) 04:32, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Alan Dershowitz

How many times has Alan Dershowitz argued before the Supreme Court? Neutrality^talk 06:51, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know and I couldn't find it on Google, but I guess you could e-mail him at the address on this page if you really want to know. --Think Fast 15:29, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

If you have access to Westlaw or Lexis, you could search for his name. I don't remember if either has an "ARGUEDBY" field -- probably not, so you'd have to search the COUNSEL field and then look at each case to weed out the ones where he was credited on the brief but didn't handle the oral argument. JamesMLane 06:53, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

PTSD Education in US Military

Has the US military made any effort to educate or prepare its soldiers about post-traumatic stress disorder? If such education exists, has it had a notable impact on the incidence of PTSD within military forces? Thank you. --Brasswatchman 20:59, August 14, 2005 (UTC)

Not sure about specific education, but here's an article (intrusive ad-watching required) by Salon magazine about the US Army's post-traumatic stress disorder treatment program for veterans, and stories that it's about to suffer financial cutbacks. It mentions some statistics on historical rates of PTSD in vets of various wars. Keep in mind that Salon has a distinctly liberal, antiwar bent, but that doesn't make its reports factually inaccurate...--Robert Merkel 22:33, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Very interesting. Thank you. I was wondering if anyone who either has been or currently is in the US military - or in any military, for that matter - might be able to help out with my original question. Thanks. --Brasswatchman 17:03, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Some web searching (I googled "ptsd education training military") turned up this company promoting such educational programs, but there doesn't seem to be any mention that their programs have actually been adopted by any part of the US military. This Australian Defence Force mental health site is a bit light on details specifically referring to PTSD but mentions a multi-level mental health training program - a basic level for all defence personnel, and more comprehensive courses for caring professions who aren't specifically mental health experts (chaplains, nurses and the like) as well as specific professional training for those responsible for providing mental health services. In either case, there might be more information available by digging around on the sites (or contacting them and asking if you've got specific questions). --Robert Merkel 02:42, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

:) Now why didn't I think of that? Thank you very much for your help, Robert. I've got a lead now. --Brasswatchman 20:15, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

My father is PTSD and served in the Australian Army in Vietnam.If you check out the VVCS or Vietnam Veterens Counselling Service in Western Australia(definately),you will find alot of information on how they are helping Australian Vietnam Veterens deal with the associated mental and physiacl problems.If you wish to explore further you will other related topics such as,the effect on the children of veterans,and the extensive tests done on their health and their mental similarities taken from their parents.

I see. I'm very sorry to hear about your father; I hope he's found some way to recover. Thank you very much for your help. Brasswatchman August 20, 2005. 1:09 PM EST.

Webster (TV Series) question

Can anyone remember the plot of the episode 28 "Moving Out" of the TV show Webster. I recall that the family moves into a new house and discover secret passageways? Particularly, why were the passageways there, and what was up with the little girl (possible the ghost of the daughter of the old owners of the house). In particular, please explain the scene where Webster finds the girl in the passageway. I can't remember what the deal was. Google is no use. I really would appreciate any help.

check here to see if it answers your questions. --Dismas 04:38, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I posted this last month when this question appeared before. It has since been placed the July II archive. PedanticallySpeaking 17:52, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Oh, it's been so long since I've seen Webster. They had to move out of their apartment because Webster set it on fire--he'd been playing with his chemistry set when George and Katherine told him not too and he hid it in his closet. The couple they moved in with had a daughter who had run away and not been seen for a decade or two. The father had built the passages for his daughter--one went from behind the grandfather clock in the parlor up to her room, as I recall--and they had kept the passages and her room exactly as is all these years. Why they wanted tenants, I don't recall but it's been at least a decade since I've seen Webster. PedanticallySpeaking 19:24, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

English pronunciation

Is it true that native English pronunication lacks an /e/ sound at the end of the word? At least from what I've heard of native English speakers, if they try to pronounce an "e" at the end of the word "as it is written" (e.g. in German or Latin) they always turn it into either /ei/ or a schwa. I've had enough conversations with native German speakers (at BoundCon, for example), understanding them and getting understood myself, to know that Germans pronounce a final "e" as /e/, like we Finns do. I suppose native English speakers could do this with practice in foreign languages, but is there a more "Englishy" way? — JIP | Talk 16:26, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Which "e sound at the end of the word"? To my English-trained ears, the German final e sounds pretty much like a schwa (but shorter), so I imagine that's how it is likely to come out. Latin final e sounds different to me, but I mostly know "church Latin", which does tend to make it more of an "ei" for singing purposes. -Aranel ("Sarah") 17:20, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

The same /e/ sound as in English "pet", I think. In Finnish, Estonian and Swedish at least, they're pronounced identically. I agree that it's more like a schwa in German, but not as much as in English. And certainly not /ei/. — JIP | Talk 18:19, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

I would never say never, but I can't think of a single word ending in e where the e is pronounced as in pet. It is a general rule taught in phonics classes that the e is silent alltogether in most words ending in e. Otherwise, it would normally be pronouced as the letter is said (as the "ie" in Liebe is pronounced in German), as in icee. The primary function of the terminal e in English seems to be to mark that the preceeding vowel should be lengthened. So, it is "at," (as in bat) but "ate" (as in eight). James 08:47, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you about the English words. But my question was, can native English speakers pronounce the final e as /e/ in pet in foreign words? — JIP | Talk 09:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Native English speakers have the same mouth, tongue etc as speakers of other languages so of course they can pronounce final [e] or any other phone. What exactly are you trying to ask? Of course some English speakers have trouble picking up sounds not present in English, but that's a commonplace of learning foreign languages. Gdr 13:21:56, 2005-08-16 (UTC) P.S. In some accents, the English word "eh" is pronounced /e/.

I'm not asking whether it's physically possible for them to do so. Of course it is. I'm asking whether they know how to pronounce the final /e/ in foreign languages correctly, without specia pronunciation training. What I've heard and seen of native English speakers hints to the contrary. I've even seen someone write per se as per say. — JIP | Talk 13:47, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

No, English speakers do not magically know how to pronounce foreign words! They have to go to foreign languages classes. (However, "per se" is in fact pronounced like "per say" in English so what you see is merely a spelling error, not evidence of wrong pronunciation.)

I guess I worded my reply badly. Of course they don't magically know how to pronounce it correctly if they don't know how it's supposed to be pronounced. What I meant was after they've heard a foreign speaker pronounce it correctly, or seen the pronunication in written form. Without having a dedicated phonology tutor teach them to round their lips and flex their tongue in just the right way... a little bit more... no, that's too much... no, no /i/ sound... a little less like a schwa... that's good. — JIP | Talk 14:45, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Terminal /e/ is quite easy for English speakers to learn (since English has medial /e/). In foreign-language classes I've been in, I'd say 80% of students get it straight away and everyone gets it in the end. Other phones can be much harder. Gdr 14:00:03, 2005-08-16 (UTC)

Part of the problem with "per se" vs. "per say" is that people are generally unaware that the phrase is actually Latin and assume that the word must be "say," since it is, obviously enough, a word in English. James 23:35, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

But "per se", as used by English speakers, is an English phrase. Of course it has a Latin origin, but so does half of English vocabulary. It retains its Latin spelling but it has an English pronunciation. Gdr 20:42:18, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

It's not pronounced as in "pet", but the final e in "furore" is a bit of an exception to the usual rules. (It's pronounced as three syllables in British English; we don't use "furor".) Loganberry (Talk) 09:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

As a note not specifically about terminal e sounds, it is extremely difficult for someone of any original language to properly say a vowel sound that does not exist in their language once they've become toddlers or so. This is why Americans are incredibly bad at German umlauts and many of the French vowel sounds. They have simply lost the innate ability to make the sounds. With hard work, it is possible to train oneself to say it correctly, however. The e sound as in pet does exist in English, so it is possible for English speakers to say it, as long as they're aware that's how it's supposed to be pronounced. That being said, I think if you gave people a word in German that ended in e, say Liebe, told them the final e was pronounced and asked them to say it, they would use a schwa. James 23:35, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

This is a good explanation. It verifies both what was answered above (English speakers can pronounce the final e correctly) and what I originally suspected (they usually turn it into a schwa if they haven't practiced it). I can handle the French and German vowels just fine, but the Swedish "u" sound (halfway between /u/ and /y/) and the Estonian "õ" sound elude me. I don't know how to pronounce them. For consonants, I am hopeless with the English "th". — JIP | Talk 13:18, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that final [e] usually turns into [ə] in English. Maybe that happens for words from German, but for Japanese loanwords it seems to become [i:]. For example karaoke, [kaɾao:ke] in Japanese, becomes [kaɹijoʊki:] in English; the placename Kobe becomes [koʊbi:] in English. Gdr 15:28:33, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

Yes, but that's because you're pronouncing them as if they were English words, in that case. My question was about trying to pronounce the words in their "native languages". — JIP | Talk 16:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

On the other hand, some Japanese [e] endings become [ei], for example sente becomes [sentei] and gote becomes [goʊtei]. Gdr 19:02:03, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

Everything above assumes a Received Pronunciation of English. To my southern English ears, there are some northern English dialects that end words with something like the e as in pet. Imagine Jane Horrocks (Lancashire) saying "hungry", or Caroline Aherne in The Royle Family saying "telly". --Heron 20:56, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

What do I need to host a website from home?

What type of server and ISP would I need? Thanks! 65.37.93.12 18:40, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

you need dyndns. then you either need an ISP who doesn't block incoming traffic on port 80, or you'll only be able to host a website on a specified port (url along the lines of http://8888:yourdomain.com ) dab (ᛏ) 18:43, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You don't need dyndns if your ISP can assign a fixed IP for you. However, not all of them can, and even those who can usually charge extra for it. And that's http://yourdomain.com:8888 and not http://8888:yourdomain.com . — JIP | Talk 18:46, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

You still need some sort of DNS service, and dyndns provides free static DNS too. ~~ N (t/c) 18:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Some ISPs block anything that looks like an HTTP request. If you don't need to operate the server yourself, it would really be better to use your ISP's webspace or a free third-party service. And, just so you don't get terminated, check with your ISP for their policy on running a server. ~~ N (t/c) 18:48, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

So to sum up:

You need an ISP that will allow you to run a server

You may need Dynamic DNS for sanity reasons

You need a server (software), like Apache

¦ Reisio 20:56, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

…And, of course, you'd need a computer running 24/7 to serve the stuff, and if it's gonna be a busy site you'll need a fast connection. Home serving is probably more trouble than it's worth, especially for amateurs; I would suggest going with a hosting company. I can recommend one if you'd like. Garrett Albright 22:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Would it happen to be your own? </winks> --Fangz 07:31, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

The one I use, yes, but not one I own. Garrett Albright 06:22, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Out of interest, why do you wish to host the site at home? --bodnotbod 22:20, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I figure I coul d have MySql at home also, and host forums, put up files... and whatnot. 216.194.60.158 20:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Any web host worth the money will offer MySQL (and PHP and Python and Ruby and...). No need to try to roll your own for just that. Garrett Albright 02:21, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

DPRK cartoons

As both an animation freak and a DPRK watcher, I couldn't help but download an some North Korean animation. I've only downloaded "Boy general (part 4)" so far, as whatever server is hosting these files is ridiculously slow (and the sound in the file is a bit corrupted as well)… Anyway, I was pleasantly surprised with the quality of the production; with its orchestral music and lack of limited animation, it was on par with the old WB theatrical shorts, but at "episode" length. I'm curious if anyone knows more about these productions, especially when they were made (as they seem to be lacking a date) and what their plots are. Garrett Albright 22:56, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Inhibiting a redox reaction using electrolysis

Hello, I'm trying to inhibit a redox reaction using electrolysis. The redox equation is shown below:

2I^- → I₂ + 2e^-

2e^- + S₂O₈^2- → 2S₂O₄^2-

My hypothesis is:

• The Iodide loses electrons to gain a net positive charge, and will be attracted to the negative electrode.
• The Persulfate will gain electrons to gain a net negative charge, and will be attracted to the positive electrode.
• The separation of reactants will lead to a lowered reaction rate.

Is this correct?

• Probaby true, but you'd need to stir to get a good reaction rate in the first place. I'd use a limited supply of 2I^-. Things aren't going to react if there's no electrons from the Iodine to react with. - Mgm|^(talk) 04:53, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

This looks like a half cell reation. Would the forward rate of reaction be reduced if the cell were driven in "reverse"? --HappyCamper 04:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Pocket Wikipedia

I was wondering if there are any programs that can simulate Wikipedia's particular implementation of the MediaWiki software, but fit in one or two 1.4" floppies?

My online computer time is limited, but I want to be able to write full articles from scratch and see how they would look (and thus check for coding errors, ugliness, etc.) before I add them to Wikipedia.

Additionally, it'll have to work on Windows 2000.

Is there anything that can do this? Almafeta 07:53, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I remember reading somewhere about a Wiki on a stick - MediaWiki can fit onto a tiny USB keydrive, but I don't remember where that was written. --HappyCamper 10:34, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm aware of 'stick Wikis', but they're larger than I need, and more than I need... I don't need something that will actually host a Wiki, just make one page that looks like a Wiki given X source code. Maybe metawiki support as well, 'z I'm trying to update ia:. Almafeta 20:07, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

For that, all you really need is an editor that groks the Mediawiki markup. I should think that would be easy to do, but I don't know if it has been done, and I'm not qualified to do it. I recall other people asking the same thing, but I don't recall if there was an answer. I would like to use it also if available though. - Taxman ^Talk 12:45, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

To use it, wouldn't you need to have a server running that knows to check for pages on the floppy? — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 20:11, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Take a look at this for a way of customising your favourite editor to accept MediaWiki syntax. You may also be interested in this page.-gadfium 04:57, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

There are certainly ways to solve this; Pilaf's Live Preview is a 15 kilobyte javascript that parses wikisyntax. Adapting a webpage to use the script and the wikipedia stylesheets should make a package to preview wikipedia articles with a web browser that fits on one floppy and less. — Sverdrup 00:13, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I put together a stan-alone previewer of Wikipedia syntax, using Pilaf's Live Preview. Download it by right-clicking this link and saving as "Wikipreview.html" or similar: Wikipreview.html. The file is a 40 kilobyte web page that can be viewed and used with a web browser, but without requiring internet access. The preview is not perfect, but I think it works. — Sverdrup 00:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Seagulls

Hi, I was wondering if I could find out some positive ID on these seagull photos, and whether or not the color of their legs has anything to do with their age. Thanks! --Fir0002 09:38, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

• 
• 
• 
• 

Are these all from the east coast of Australia again? (Not to be confused with Austria...) -- ALoan (Talk) 10:55, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

They were all taken at Sale Australia. --Fir0002 22:22, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

It seems you've already identified them as Silver Gulls. ¦ Reisio 11:18, 2005 August 16 (UTC)

Thats what I think they are, I'm hoping to get some reassurance --Fir0002 22:22, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

• The one on the right is George. I don't know the other seagulls. ;) - Mgm|^(talk) 11:40, August 16, 2005 (UTC)

Paddy wagon

This question was a question asked from a previously posted thread which has been archived

I've been wondering for a while, and this post jogged my memory: what's a racially sensitive term for "paddy wagon"? I seem to remember a toy marketed under that name back in the 80s, but I still worry I'll offend someone some day with that kind of term.--Joel 18:58, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Check out the paddywagon article - Black Mariah, or police van seem likely candidates. Trollderella 01:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Australia down under

Why do they call Australia, "down under".

My intuition would be that it is because Australia and New Zealand are the furthest south of any of the British colonies (parts of Australia and most of New Zealand are south of South Africa). Why its "down under" instead of just down is perhaps one of those things we'll never know. As an aside, the idiom was first used in print in 1886 in Oceana, volume 92. James 02:59, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you look at a globe which is tilted to represent Earth's tilt, and turn the globe so that Europe is on "top," then Australia is "down under," is it not? Garrett Albright 06:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is at the antipodes (the opposite side of the globe, for us with a eurocentric bent). -- ALoan (Talk) 16:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If you live in the northern hemisphere and look at australia on an ordinary globe, isn't it pretty obvious? alteripse 13:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Question about Paris

I'm looking for more information about a particular set of buildings in Paris, located at 14 rue Perree, in Arrondissement III. As I recall, they bear the standard of the Ministre du Budget, and still seem to be government-run. When I asked an employee who was outside of the building (in my horrible French) about what the purpose of the buliding was, they said they couldn't tell me. Can anyone help me out? You can find pictures of the building online here. Thank you very much. --Brasswatchman 06:24, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The building houses "La Garantie", or in full "Ministère des finances, service de la garantie". It's the French assay office, controlling hallmarks. Lupo 10:26, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Fantastic. Anyone know anything about the history of the place? I understand that it was built somewhere in the region of the old Paris Templar complex. --Brasswatchman 20:13, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I thought you had been there? Then you should know that it is close to the Carreau du Temple in the Marais, at the intersection of the Rue Eugène Spuller and the Rue Perrée. (Both links from the official web site of the mayor's office, which has an excellent coverage of the 3^e arr.) On the architecture and history, maybe the following book may help:

Loizeau, Emmanuelle: Le 3e arrondissement : itinéraires d'histoire et d'architecture; Action artistique de la Ville de Paris, 2000. ISBN 2913246230. In French.

Another good site giving a general, but detailed overview of the neighbourhood is Paris Balades (in French, again). HTH, Lupo 10:26, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

what is the most popular resterant in Austrilia?

what is the most popular resterant in Austrilia?

• I think you mean restaurent. But I'm not from Australia so I wouldn't know what the answer is. - 131.211.210.13 07:26, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
  • And I think you mean restaurant.  :) Dismas 07:57, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
    • The most popular restaurant, as in the restaurant company that serves the highest number of customers? Well, that would probably be McDonald's. So far as the most popular individual restaurant? Well, I could name some of the bigger ones in Hobart, but chances are it would be pointless as the most popular restaurant is more likely to be in a larger city. -- Chuq 08:18, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
    • There's also Burger King, although it's known over there as Hungry Jack's due to complicated circumstances. :) Garrett^Talk 08:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Tutankhamun's dagger—iron or steel?

I vividly recall watching the A&E documentary The Face of Tutankhamun and reading its accompanying book (ISBN 0571168450).

In one episode the guy interviewed said that the tiny dagger found near King Tut's heart was made of steel, and talked about how exciting this find was for them.

BUT our Iron Age article say it is iron. Which is correct? I'm confused...

I wouldn't like to think "we" would be wrong about such a basic detail, but I thought that the whole point of the song-and-dance about its descovery was because it was steel of an unprecedented age? —Garrett^Talk 06:58, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Steel is a form of iron. Surely there's no contradiction? Notinasnaid 09:41, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

not quite...steel is an alloy of iron and (mostly) carbon, with properties quite different from pure iron, and the process of making steel is generally assumed to have been invented quite a bit after Tutakhamun's time, so there's your contradiction :P -- Ferkelparade π 10:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

you can get something close to steel by repeatedly hammering out iron. The question dpends on exactly how you define steel.

True, but this process also had to be invented/discovered at one time - there's a reason the time period is generally called "Iron age". What was so special about Tut's dagger is that it was way older than was assumed possible for a steel object, no matter how it was made (as Garrett pointed out above) -- Ferkelparade π 11:07, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Mankind makes discoveries that are sometimes a big military secret like Greek fire which can subsequently be forgotten in Dark ages or when no one survives a conquered people who knows some technique. Thus, a distinction must be made between when something was first discovered, and went into widespread use, and when earlier people's might have discovered it, and successfully kept it so secret, that it did not get into widespread use. and then there are the Science Fiction explanations. AlMac|^(talk) 16:05, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

This is getting away from the question: was it iron or was it steel???????? Simple. The issue here is not when steel was or wasn't invented, but which Tut's dagger made of? Garrett^Talk 11:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

According to the book entitled "Out Of The Fiery Furnace" by Robert Raymond the caption next to an image of the dagger on page 54 reads--"More remarkable, in its technology, than any of the splendors recovered from Tutenkhamun's tomb is this dagger. The hilt and scabbard are of gold, but the blade is of untarnished iron. The methods which have prevented it from rusting remain a secret of the Egyptian craftsmen." I'm not finding any specific reference to this claim in the notes at the back of the copy I have. I know this doesn't conclusively answer the question. It seems that either there's a mysterious means of fabricating Iron, without carbon, and keeping it from rusting. The only other item I'm aware of that is fabricated purely out of Iron that shows no signs of corrosion over an extended time (in this case 1500 years) is the Iron Pillar near Delhi. A photo of such is present in the work I just cited on page 51.

Severn Railway Bridge

In the Severn Railway Bridge there is a link to some archive footage of the demolition of the bridge. Watching the footage, one of the final pieces of commentary says that 15 of the spans of the bridge were not sold for scrap metal, but were sold intact to be re-used as bridge spans elsewhere in the world. Does anyone know where these re-used spans are to be found ? Thanks--JRL 06:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What one Word Concept would describe the phrase what comes aroud goes around? or like same life Karmic revenge?

Martyharhar---Martyharhar 08:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Balance? Karma? --Brasswatchman 09:22, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Comeuppance? David Sneek 10:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe reciprocity. I don't know if there's a perfect one-word solution, though. "Just desserts" would cover it ... Proto t c 11:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Poetic justice (although that's two words) ? Gandalf61 13:16, August 17, 2005 (UTC) Inevitability

Inconvenience. --bodnotbod 22:48, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Hell. --Matt Yeager 22:37, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Routing PC Sound to Speakers or Headphones by Application

Is there any freeware that will allow me to send my VoIP (Skype) incoming calls to my headphones, but at the same time have my TV display ( from my PC's TV card ) sound sent to the PC speakers ? This software would enable a user to watch TV on their PC, but then take their VoIP phone calls on their headphones, without fiddling with the sound settings. I hope this is an appropriate place for this type of question (pushing the limits perhaps)--jrleighton 10:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If you are on a Mac, there is a program called Detour that will handle this. Garrett Albright 14:54, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

'Standard' PC soundcards have only one Primary buffer, which is where all the sounds get mixed together into stereo/3D space or whatever, for sending to the various outputs (headphones, speakers, digital audio...). So if that buffer contains your VOIP when the movie starts, the movie sounds and VOIP get mixed.

Lots of cards do have multiple independant outputs though, notably the ones designed for studio recording, although such cards aren't as good for games and 3D sound.

You can also try putting several soundcards into the PC, if you like watching the BSOD... (from the word 'freeware' I assume you're using Windows?) Ojw 16:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for all your help. Looks like the Mac program does exactly what I want. But unfortunately I am using Windows though. Looks like it's not possible. --jrleighton 01:51, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

My experience differs from Ojw's. I have two sound cards (the nforce one on the chipset and an ultra cheap PCI I got specifically for Skype). I've had no problems at all. From what I read, older versions of Windows don't cope well with two soundcards, but XP seems (at least for me) to have no problems with it. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:23, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thinking aloud

I've seen some people often thinking aloud i.e. uttering every word that the person is currently thinking even when noone around is noticed by the person. Is this a disorder? Are there any psychological reasons such as craving for attention etc., for this? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 11:55, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

I hope it's not a disorder! I do it all the time! Sometimes it just helps if I talk things through with myself. Like today when I was looking for an article here. I couldn't think of the name of a series of books. I went over to a guy I work with and said "What's the name of those books about the Rapture and the people that are left behind?" and it was at that second that I realized that I had the answer, Left Behind! This example has a second person but I get answers from myself often by just talking to myself. Dismas 12:30, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I have never personally met anyone who actually speaks aloud every single thought. Most folks can think more quickly than they can speak. There is generally a whole jumble of thoughts going on at once—not all of them verbal. (For example, as I type this, I am simultaneously deciding what to type, telling my fingers what to do, thinking "should I really be writing this?", and also feeling guilty because I should be packing.) For me, "thinking out loud" helps me to organize the clutter. I'm sure it could become a disorder requiring clinical attention if it became compulsive. (Most people who "think out loud" have the capacity to stop doing it.) -Aranel ("Sarah") 19:45, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Dimas and Sarah. I now feel that there may be different types of people who think aloud for a variety of reasons. People finding company in themselves, people craving for attention, people reassuring themselves, people like Dismas (who has commented above) etc., Can someone validate or refute these possibilities? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:44, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Midnight Oil

What are characteristics of the songs that the Australian rock band - "Midnight Oil" wrote?

What does the lyrics in their songs "Beds are Burning" and "Power and the passion" mean?

If there are any more interesting information on this band - Midnight Oil - please include it too.

Thanks.

Have you read the article on Midnight Oil? Dismas 12:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Beds are Burning is concerned with Australian Aboriginal rights. Rmhermen 12:49, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

If you can tolerate the hideous navigation of The All Music Guide do a search on the band and, to the left, you'll see "mood words" that users have assigned to them:

• Cerebral
• Rousing
• Earnest
• Urgent
• Passionate
• Literate
• Visceral
• Aggressive

There's some additional critique there and their style too. --bodnotbod 22:58, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

"I could care less"

What are people's thoughts on the above expression (cf. "I couldn't care less"). My girlfriend shoots me a vicious glare every time I use it, but I've even now spotted it in a New York Times headline (where it was being used un-self-consciously). The only article I can find that mentions it is American and British English differences, where it mentions that the original usage may have been sarcastic(?)

So, is it an acceptable idiom, or is it a sign that language is going down the tubes, since it actually means the exact opposite of what the person using it intends to say?

Language Log has a good article on this, linking back to a series of older ones, explaining the linguistic shifts that (may have) led to it. Bear in mind that it's an idiom, where exact meaning is rarely directly relevant... Shimgray 14:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It's an example of a idiom that doesn't correspond to the literal meaning of the words. This is commonplace. Other examples are "head over heels", "shouldn't wonder if", "more than you can help", "near miss", "literally" (i.e., metaphorically), "back and forth", "ass backwards" etc etc. You might regard the phenomenon as an unfortunate debasement or as an amusing feature. Gdr 14:23:21, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

He's asking specifically if it should be "I could care less" or "I couldn't care less". The former could be sarcastic, the latter would be literal. The question is whether the former is just a misspoken or debased version of the latter. --Fastfission 14:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

(1) No-one can say if it should be either form. It all depends on the context. In the UK "could care less" sounds odd and wouldn't be acceptable in any formal context. However, in the US it seems to be much more acceptable; Google finds occurrences in ordinary prose in the New York Times whereas in the Guardian it only finds direct quotes from Americans. I wouldn't use "could care less" myself, but I don't object to "head over heels". (2) There seems to be little or no evidence that "could care less" is sarcastic or ironic in origin. (On the other hand, there's not much evidence the other way either!) (3) The idea that language change is the result of "debasement" and "mistakes" makes it harder to understand what's really going on? Was the great vowel shift a "mistake"? Is modern English debased? What does that even mean? Read the article that Shimgray linked to, which describes an ordinary phenomenon of language change by which the phrase could have arisen. Gdr 15:33:16, 2005-08-17 (UTC)

IMAO the great vowel shift was a huge mistake. It resulted in the hopeless confusion of trying to explain the simple, natural, intuitive pronunciation of every other language in terms of the needlessly complex English language. — JIP | Talk 15:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure that "common use" makes something acceptable or desireable. After all, we are talking about an expression that means the opposite of what the speaker intends. Surely that makes it a bad choice of words. Shouldn't one mean what one says and say what one means? Use it if you like, but to many people, you will sound like a person who doesn't think about what they're saying. Ground Zero 15:50, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't "mean the opposite of what the speaker intends"; the speaker knows what they're saying, the listener knows what they're saying. It can be interpreted as meaning the opposite, which is a very different thing... Shimgray 16:03, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Ummm... yes, it does. What they mean to say is "I do not care about this at all." But what they are saying is "I care about this somewhat, because I could care less than I actually do." So yes, I think that while the speaker and the listener make the same mistake in interpreting the phrase, it does mean the opposite of what the speaker says, based on any reasonable interpretation of the words and their juxtaposition. The meanings of these words are clear and can be found in a dictionary. Stringing them together produces a logical meaning that is the opposite of what is intended. Ground Zero 20:10, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

The speaker means "I really don't care" and the listener understands the speaker to have meant "I really don't care". The phrase "I could care less" is an idiomatic expression (at least in some varieties of English), that is, an expression "whose meaning does not follow from the meaning of the individual words of which it is composed" (to quote the Wikipedia article). The meaning of the individual words put together is not what the speaker intends, but the meaning of the expression is. If one were to string the words together and interpret them as you propose, one would in fact be making a mistake and getting the wrong meaning. -Aranel ("Sarah") 20:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand me. The idiom "I couldn't care less" has the same meaning as the idiom "I could care less" which has the same meaning as the phrase "I really don't care". It's a single unit. The individual words of that phrase may not mean the same, if strictly interpreted, as the whole idiom does - but this doesn't prevent either the listener or the speaker from understanding the meaning of the idiom. People aren't deconstructing the language when they speak to one another - they're hearing phrases they understand.

Such [idiomatical] expressions, if judged by strict rules, will commonly fail to satisfy them. In so far as they are idiomatical, they are departures from the beaten track of that grammatical construction, and that critical analogy, which are common to all languages.

(Henry Alford, The Queen's English.). Shimgray 20:37, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, in England it is always 'I couldn't care less', I have always wondered whether I misheard Americans who I thought I heard say 'I could care less'. Trollderella 16:13, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

People often say "cheap at half the price" - I don't know wheter this is meant to be sarcastic or not. This is perhaps an example of the same phenomenon. 19:55, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I've always thought this was a sarcastic comment on the percieved value. Trollderella 23:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It is sarcasm, in the mouths of people who are parsing it. "It would be cheap [i.e., good value] at twice the price" is the straight version; it's not common. Sharkford 20:31, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

As a note on American usage versus British/others... MOST of the time, American people say "couldn't care less". "Could care less" is simply sloppiness on the part of Americans, as the literal meaning is the opposite of what is implied and inferred by speaker and listener. --Matt Yeager 22:43, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Incorrect statement?

Hi! I copied this statement from your Air Force info section:

Schriever AFB is the only U.S Air Force base without a runway, and the only base named after a person who was still alive at the time.

Actually, Los Angeles Air Force Base also does not have a runway. I believe that LAAFB is the only base names after a city. (That is what I am told, I'm no authority.)

I didn't feel I had the authority to edit the info. Perhaps it is something you would like to review first. Thanks! Great information! Elizabeth

<e-mail address removed>

Hi Elizabeth — while people here tried hard to make sure everything is accurate, there will always be some mistakes somewhere. If you know from first-hand knowledge that the LAAFB has no runway, then you have just as much "authority" as anyone else to edit the article. You could either change the article itself, if you're bold, or you could post a message at Talk:Schriever Air Force Base, where the people who edit that article would be most likely to notice it.

Likewise, you could either edit Los Angeles Air Force Base or post a message at Talk:Los Angeles Air Force Base.

Thanks for taking an interest in improving this encyclopedia! And, if you've caught the wiki-bug, sign up and contribute to what interests you! — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 18:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Milky Way Structure?

Who first identified the spiral (or spiral barred) shape of the Milky Way galaxy? How did they do it?--Fangz 19:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

• That's a real good question. The best I can find is that the idea that the galaxy is spiral had been floated around since the middle of the 19th century[12]; I think Harlow Shapely and Edwin Hubble's researches seem to have proven it. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:40, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Dutch astronomer Cornelius Easton proposed a spiral structure for the Milky Way, with a non-central location for the Sun, in 1900. Harlow Shapely estimated the size of the Milky Way correctly, but he understimated the distance of "spiral nebulae" (which we now know to be separate galaxies) and so placed them within the Milky Way. Herber Curtis underestimated the size of the Milky Way but correctly identified spiral nebulae as separate entities, which he called Island Universes - this led to The Great Debate between Shapely and Curtis in 1920. It was Hubble's researches in the 1920s that finally established that "spiral nebulae" are external galaxies and the Milky Way is a fairly typical spiral galaxy. See [13] for more information. Gandalf61 14:41, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks alot! Does this stuff belong in the Milky Way article, then? And an article on Easton would be nice, if someone can be bothered to write it.... --Fangz 21:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Hera, Temple of:-

Hi guys,

I have not the remotest idea what these messages are about. I do not wish to offend anybody but when people make false accusations it tells you something about the person or persons making the false accusations. I had assumed that your site was an attempt to be professional and that you would honour you own rules. If you are experiencing mischief it certainly is not from my computer.

My original inquiry was a serios inquiry about the Temple of Hera located on the Island of Samos. I wondered if anybody had any extensive information on its dimensions and how it compared with the Temple of Artemis.

The tourist guides on this Island tell a pretty weird story.

In view of some of the comments I prefer to remain annonomous. I am not interested in writing or editing articles in any way.

I don't know anything about the Temple of Hera (sorry!), but it sounds like the other thing you are talking about is the comments on your talk page. According to the note at the top of that page, it's an AOL IP, which means that it is shared by all kinds of people who also use AOL. There is a very, very, very good chance that the comments on that page were not directed at you. They were probably directed at other users who happened to have that IP address that day. Around here we're used to how confusing IP addresses can be and we won't hold it against you. (You can save yourself the trouble by registering an account, if you like.) -Aranel ("Sarah") 21:21, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

OK, so we don't yet seem to have an article on the Temple of Hera (also known as the Basilica of Hera). However, there is plenty of information on the place. The building measures c. 24.5×53.3m. according to this site, which has floor plans. this site has some cool photos, as does this one. Anyone fancy helping on an article? Trollderella 00:50, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Intelligence test for foreign sweepstakes winners

I've seen a number of sweepstakes based in the US that say winners in other countries will have to pass a short intelligence test to claim their prize. What's with this? Is it some ancient legal stipulation? Is it racism? Is it just tradition? ~~ N (t/c) 22:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

I think you're forgetting the other possible reason... humor. I've seen it before and always took it as a joke. Dismas 22:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, no. Some places ban sweepstakes outright; the "intelligence test" turns it into a slight vestige of a game of skill. If I recall correctly, that is. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 22:24, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It is a legal consideration. See sweepstakes: "Notably, Canada and several European countries require entrants to solve a mathematical puzzle, making it a contest of skill, in order to overcome requirements that would classify sweepstakes as a form of gambling." -Aranel ("Sarah") 22:29, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

"Who is the President of the US? a) George Bush b) George Hamilton c) George Burns". They call it a "game of skill" to get around the lottery restrictions, but clearly they don't have to ask for very much skill. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:39, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. ~~ N (t/c) 23:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know what questions they actually ask though? That could easily be used to ask incredibly difficult questions to get out of giving out a prize. - Taxman ^Talk 23:09, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

The rare occasions I've won prizes like free ice cream and chips I've had to answer questions like, "What's (6+3)*2?" before I could redeem them. I heard that the purpose of these questions isn't intended to prevent people from winning the prize, but rather to satisfy some legal issue where you have to work for something before a transfer of goods can take place. But I have no idea why that is or even if that is the case. --HappyCamper 23:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

If it is a random game, then it is governed under gambling laws, if it is a test of skill it is not. Trollderella 00:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

We have an article about the Canadian version of this at Skill testing question. - SimonP 13:48, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

working in space

how can hand tools be used in space without loosing them. robert

A tether to the astronaut and/or object being worked on. ~~ N (t/c) 23:12, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

A more interesting question is "how do you turn a bolt while floating in space? wouldn't it turn you instead?" --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 23:15, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

To think about it, that probably would happen! But I guess the astronaut wouldn't move as much as the bolt because the bolt's mass is so small. --HappyCamper 23:38, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

But you would still be turned while tightening the bolt, unless you used a reactionless power wrench. I don't know, but I think those work a little like recoilless rifles - they turn a weight opposite the direction they're turning the bolt, so there's no net angular force on the body of the wrench. ~~ N (t/c) 00:05, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

You could brace yourself against something else? Trollderella 00:17, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

It's all very complicated to do something terribly simple. That's why they have to practice every maneuver in those giant water tanks. --Laura Scudder | Talk 16:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

It should be pointed out that Laura is speaking only on behalf of inhabitants of the planet earth when she says it's "complicated". Other wikipedians, who contribute here as a means of studying our planet, find us terribly amusing in this regard. --bodnotbod 23:09, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Spanish verb conjugation

What is the past tense of permitir, meaning "to permit", as in "six absences are permitted"? Hermione1980 22:46, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Well the past tense would be permitía (imperfect tense for ongoing, he/she), but in your phrase, you don't want past tense, but I don't know the grammatical terms for what you want. The way it is said is "se permiten seis ausencias". It uses the "they" form and se translates to is basically. Incidentally for simple things like this machine translators like google do a decent job. Also, the first google hit for Spanish verb conjugation, gets a site that will do full conjugation for you. - Taxman ^Talk 23:07, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

It's called the passive voice. A word-for-word translation would be "Seis ausencias son permitidas," although the reflexive version cited above is far more common. Mwalcoff 23:34, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

CMS for SEO Content

Is there a CMS system that will allow me to upload lot's of additional content to my client's site withouth affecting the rest of their site. I need a tool designed specifically for uploading content pages. Any suggestions?

You should be able to use ordinary FTP(file transfer protocol) to add pages to a site while keeping the existing content intact. If that won't work for you, please explain your situation in greater depth. Superm401 | Talk 20:28, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

*snip*

I read somewhere on Wikipedia that there is a technical term for imitating sounds or actions on the internet with a textual representation. What is this called? --HappyCamper 02:31, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• Not internet-specific, but onomatopoeia? Words-sounding-like-the-sound-they-describe. Shimgray 02:36, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Possibly emoticons? Warofdreams 11:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• Emote ¦ Reisio 20:57, 2005 August 18 (UTC)

  Bang on :-) Thanks! --HappyCamper 23:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Telling time by the stars

I know that for a sundial you use the Equation of Time.

Is there any need to make a similar correction when trying to read sidereal time by the stars? (I know there is a seasonal correction to get the time of day from sidereal time, but it is linear, no?) --Juuitchan

I don't know, but it looks like most methods for reading star clocks (stellar chonography perhaps? Where should this article go!?) return a time in standard notation, so converting to sidereal time would be the same as from regular time. I have a sneaking suspicion that that is not what you meant though... These sites [14], [15] provide a basic grounding in how to tell the time by the stars. Trollderella 19:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Identification of a flower

Hi, I recently took some photos of a flower. It was taken in Melbourne, Australia during winter:

• this one's from a different tree but it looks similar despite the difference in color
  this one's from a different tree but it looks similar despite the difference in color
• File:MG 5455.jpg
• File:MG 5456.jpg
• 

--Fir0002 12:17, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

It looks likes a variety of "old fashioned" rose to me. --Fastfission 15:00, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

It looks like a camelia to me. Look at the leaves, not rose-type leaves, camelia (sp) -like leaves.

It's definitely not a rose; it looks like a camelia. Compare with these google image search images.

Its a camellia japonica.There are many different colours and varieties and they can be found in any good Botanical book.

Koxinga

Hi. I am wondering if anyone can explain what the 'meaning' is behind the name of Koxinga (國姓爺). I would have guessed that it is something like "Master of the country's name" but maybe someone who knows better can verify this for me. Thank you. Duomillia 16:35, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

According to the article Koxinga which I should have read before posting the question his name means 'Lord with the Royal Surname'. I wonder if anyone knows any thing more on that, to elaborate or confirm it? Duomillia 16:43, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, his surname, Zhu, is identical with the Ming royal family name (also Zhu). This is "granted by Prince Tang of Southern Ming" in recognition of his military service (quoted from the article). --Menchi 07:03, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

Baseball Home Run Champion

It seems to me that a way to tell who the best home run hitter of all times is, is to find out which player has hit the most home runs off the best pitchers. It would take a lot of research, but with todays technology it seems as though it could be done. Can anyone suggest a person or a company that would be capable of this?

That would require an interpretation of baseball statistics, though some subjective judgement should also be applied. You just need the appropriate database, reliable stats and a suitable method to work it out. Dunc|☺ 19:52, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

In order to do this, you'd need to determine who the "best" pitchers were, which would require a ton of subjective weighting for each part in time (a 3.00 ERA pitcher in 1920 isn't anywhere near as good as a 3.00 ERA pitcher today, thanks to huge improvements in training, along with livened-up balls, shorter mounds, etc.). I have no idea how you could possibly do that, since although anyone can see that pitchers are better today, calculating how much better, exactly, would seem to be impossible. (Or, in Dunc's terms... the database would be troublesome, the data would be fairly easy... but the method would be impossible to come up with.)

Your saving grace is that it's almost unnecessary. No matter how you calculate it, unless your weighting is totally screwed up, it's still Hank Aaron at #1. Baseball has changed a lot over its 100+ years, but comparing Hank's time to, say, Barry Bonds's... they're more or less the same. Also, Hank never juiced up. --Matt Yeager 22:53, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

One easy way to think about it is to look at how many home run titles hitters have won. Barry Bonds has 700 home runs, but has only led the NL twice. According to baseball-reference.com, Babe Ruth had the most home run titles with 12, followed by Mike Schmidt with eight and Ralph Kiner with 7. Mwalcoff 01:26, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Educational requirements for becoming a doctor, lawyer, dentist.

There was a time when a person without a college education could become a doctor, dentist, or lawyer simply by taking the appropriate exam (such as the Bar exam to become a lawyer). Now, it seems that in order to practice these professions, you are required to have at least a Bachelor's degree. When did this occur, and why? For example, in 1939, a man, living in the South at the age of 28 and working in a store, decided to take the Bar exam. He passed and opened up his own law office. Could this happen in today's times? Thank you.

While I would have thought that to be a lawyer all you would need is to pass the bar, according to our Lawyer article, "Before taking the bar exam, nearly all American lawyers must first attend law school for at least three years." and "in the U.S. and Canada (other than Quebec), at least three years of univerity education in a subject other than law ("pre-law studies") is required as a prerequisite to entry into the law degree program", which implies at least six years of university studying. I'm not sure who exactly is exempt under "...nearly all American lawyers" though.

In the UK, Doctors must hold a Bachelors of Medicine and Surgery, equivalent to a BSc-level, and in the US you need a MD, equivalent to MSc-level study.

In US, practicing medicine requires 2-4 years of university, 4 years of medical school, and a year of internship. A bit more than for an MS. alteripse 12:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

A Dentist "requires 2-6 years of further formal university training after dental school."

So, in answer to your question, no, to be legally recognized as a lawyer/doctor/dentist, you need the proper university education, and not just to be able to pass an exam. — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 18:16, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Having said that, universities will often give significant course credit for relevant experience or self study. Trollderella 19:47, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Notice that the exception to the law school requirement to take a bar exam is the USPTO exam, which only requires a bachelor's degree or three years of technical industry experience. But to avoid confusion, those who have passed the USPTO bar and not a state bar are called patent agents rather than patent lawyers as they are only allowed to practice law in front of the USPTO and not in a courtroom. --Laura Scudder | Talk 16:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, in the past, the requirements to become a lawyer in the U.S. were quite simple. There was always a shortage of lawyers in the U.S., and during the anti-elitist Jacksonian years, many states got to the point in the 1830s where any idiot could open up a office and call himself a lawyer. However, the old apprenticeship system survived in many states (so that one had to do an apprenticeship first, then present oneself to a judge and answer at least some questions to show a basic knowledge of the law). Apprenticeship lasted even well after the rise of the modern law school in the late 19th century, and is still around as an alternative to law school in one state, California.

Also, law was initially a bachelor's degree, but then in the 1960s, the lawyers got sick and tired of being looked down upon by the scientists with their Ph.D.'s and the doctors with their M.D.'s. There was also a consensus, then and now, that law is so difficult that a person has to be at least 21 or 22 years old to study it properly (which is why most American law schools today frown on people who get bachelor's degrees in "legal studies"). So now, it's a three-year graduate or professional program leading to a Juris Doctor degree. --Coolcaesar 05:38, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Now to be fair, some doctors have M.D.s and P.H.D.s, more competative that way - fkseb 09:40, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Geologic evidence of the great flood of Genesis...

Are there places in the United States where one can view view geologic evidence of the great flood? If so, where?

Congress :) -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:33, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

Basically, there is no geological evidence that points towards a global flood. Still doesn't stop christian fundamentlists believing in it and using the pseudoscience of flood geology to promote a rather absurd idea. See here for FAQs on the subject. Dunc|☺ 19:49, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

Flood myths are common around the world, and it is possible that the Biblical flood (or more probably the Mesopotamian myths which may have been a source for it) is based on a severe but regional flood - see, for instance, the Black Sea deluge theory. There would, of course, be no evidence of this in the United States. Warofdreams 11:38, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Deluge (prehistoric) has candidates for catastrophic prehistoric floods, including the postulated source of some Native American flood myths. --Laura Scudder | Talk 15:21, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

In Eastern Washington, Idaho, and Montana, there is definitely evidence of big flooding; however, this is not generally attributed to a worldwide flood. --Matt Yeager 22:56, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

Counties and cities

Hi guys.

I have a question. There is a lot of files with US states and Counties borders of each state. How can I find out borders of cities inside each county ? So, I mean that I need to see borders for each city or town in any county.

Thank you in advance.

Jack

If you're really keen, you can use the geographic data from http://tiger.census.gov with GIS computer software to find and produce maps of just about any governmental division in the United States. But that may be using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. --Robert Merkel 10:58, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

There's also the US Gazetteer, which operates from the tiger data, or American FactFinder, which is also a US Census product but has a slightly different interface. kmccoy (talk) 16:12, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Is there a particular county you are interested in? PedanticallySpeaking 17:58, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Removing an item from Delete box

Dear Sir or Madam,

I notice that my contribution on "Pami"--an 8th Century BC Egyptian Pharaoh--on Wikipedia is still being listed in the 'Wikipedia: Votes for Deletion' box. However, all the voters here agree that my article here should be kept with the exception of 'Erwin Walsh' who first posted a delete on this subject. I have noticed that some Wikipedia posters have criticised Mr. Walsh for allegdly Bulk VfD tagging other contributions without fully reading them first.

May inquire if Wikipedia will remove my contribution on Pami from the 'Wikipedia: Votes for Deletion' box. This seems an unnecessary form of purgatory for a Pharaoh whose existence is unquestioned by all scholars and who is documented by contemporary monuments from his own reign. Pami is certainly not a " fictitious entry" as Mr. Walsh has claimed.

Fabian from Vancouver, Canada Thank You. --216.113.201.138 09:49, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't worry, the VfD will be removed soon and the article of course will be kept.--Pharos 10:34, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Peruvian slave bracelets

i have recently come across some peruvian slave bracelets.I have looked for information in regards to their origin and could only find that they were used by the spanish conquerors during the time of the inca to identify slaves.They are a bracelet made from alpaca silver and have a wristband and chains connected to each finger.I have tracked more down to celtic areas where they were given as tokens of love and/or to show that a maiden had captured a mans heart.I have also found some in indian culture and in some arabian nations that look very similar or at least appear to be based on a similar design.They can be found in many belly-dancing shops around the world.My question is this?What are their true origins?Is it incan culture they originated from or were they brought over from spain and if so,where did the spanish find them.I do not wish to wear something that symbolizes pain,death or slavery.

If the item is clearly more decorative than starkly functional, the story is a marketing ploy. When you find a variety of histories for the same object, be skeptical that any of them are true. alteripse 12:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be three main meanings of slave bracelet:

1. A copper bracelet used as a medium of exchange in the West African slave trade. (Picture: [16]) Some people seem to be under the misconception that slaves wore these bracelets, but this seems very unlikely.
2. Any bracelet made of chain links. (Example: [17], which claims, "During the 1920's these 'slave' bracelets were very popular")
3. A wrist bracelet joined to a ring by a chain (Example: [18])

(The term is also used in BDSM fiction, e.g. John Norman's Gor series.) My guess is that meanings 2 and 3 come from the association of chains with slavery, and are not derived from any actual use of these bracelets by slaves. But maybe there's more to the story. What does the OED say? Gdr 18:15:11, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

Final film to be made by the Rank Organisation

Does anybody know what the film was...it was made in 1980, according to the article on the Rank Organisation. Thanks

Some of this IMDB info should lead you there --bodnotbod 23:16, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Yesno?

Which American or British cartoon or sitcom character had a habit of saying "yesno?" — JIP | Talk 13:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Jim Trott from The Vicar of Dibley. Interestingly, "yes no" was the sole thing one of the ladies in the nursing home my Nanna was in said. Still, she was cheerful. Dunc|☺ 15:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I have never seen that show, but the article says Jim Trott said "no no no" and his wife said "yes yes yes". I was looking for someone who actually said "yesno?" as one word. Is Jim Trott still correct? — JIP | Talk 15:41, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

When Jim Trott wanted to say anything it was always preceded by several nos. So occasionally he would say "No no no no no noyes". His wife, who didn't appear often at all, said "Yes yes yes yesnooo". Dmn € Դմն 16:04, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks. Was there anyone who used ", yesno?" as meaning ", right?" or ", isn't it?", such as "your brother's a mailman, yesno?" — JIP | Talk 09:55, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Vicky Pollard, a character in "Little Britain" often answers questions with "Yes but no but yes but no but ..." Cheers JackofOz 02:29, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, the pirate fox charachter from the '90s Disney cartoon "Tailspin" [19] had a habit of saying it. -- anon 19:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

what is the difference between science and superstition?

what is the difference between science and superstition?

The Scientific method defines science, and makes sure the conclusions and results of science are agreeable. — Sverdrup 13:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

A superstition is a belief about how the physical world works that is not supported by statistical or physical evidence but is transmitted as part of the "knowledge base" of a particular culture. Science is the body of knowledge about the way the physical world works that is supported by statistical or physical evidence. Facts and theories that are part of the science "knowledge base" should be supportable or refutable indepedently of culture. alteripse 15:25, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Of course, the idea that the scientific method works is, in itself, little more than superstition, since it cannot be proved methodologically. ;) Trollderella 16:02, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

eh? Don't be silly. The scientific method is grounded in rationalism; superstition is irrational. Dunc|☺ 17:27, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

But rationalism is simply the superstition that logic can be applied to the world ;) Trollderella 18:04, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Don't accept the word of any of us, much less one who can't discern the difference between empiricism and superstition. Compare the results: on the one hand, increased longevity, ease from disease, increased convenience in daily living, increased understanding of the universe in its macrocosmic and microcosmic aspects; on the other a reminder not to step on the crack and break your mother's back. - Nunh-huh 04:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC).

It's not quite the same answer, but you should consider Clarke's Third Law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke. BlankVerse ∅ 00:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Cartography/Heralrdy/Linguistics search

I'm looking for a career field or a job specialty that has a lot to do with historical maps, heraldry, and historical languages. I have most of a Bachelor's degree in French and Linguistics, but I've decided to be really happy I have to find a job doing the things I love, and ever since I was a little kid I've been fascinated by historical borders, genealogy, heraldry, and the linguistic tradition of regions, countries, and other territories (especially in Europe). However, I find it is extremely difficult to find a job or career that synthesizes all of these interests into one field. Any help would be appreciated, I'm pretty much uprooted right now and can travel anywhere and learn anything if it means I get to do what makes me happy. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 15:15, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Let me make it clear that this isn't a job solicitation, I'm just looking for direction towards some field I can try to look for work in. WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot 17:06, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, maybe you can try being a librarian, archivist or museum curator. You'd need a master's degree of some sort, though, I think. And it's not exactly a hot field, there are few jobs available. Ornil 17:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Or, for that matter, you can get a PhD and do exactly what you want (and teach), except the competition for jobs is even worse, and the pay is abysmal. Ornil 17:14, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Is having three fingers in each hand a situation with a name?

I know a person who has just three fingers in each hand. I'm very curious about it but I didn't ask him in case he was sensitive about it. Does this anomaly have a medical name, is it known, are there any other people (without being a "coincidence") in this state and does it have any known cause? Thank you very much to all in advance, Wikipedia rules!!

--85.50.3.24 16:00, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I would think that many things can cause this including thalidomide, radiation, etc. Although I don't know the name of the condition of having a lower than normal amount of digits. So while we might be able to get a name for the condition, you'd probably have to ask the person how it came about. Dismas 16:08, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Although tridactyly would be a perfectly acceptable medical term, a far more common birth defect that results in reduced fingers is ectrodactyly. There are several forms of this, some isolated and some associated with other anomalies. The hand in ectrodacytly is often formed abnormally in other ways. A "lobster claw" deformity is most common. Versions of ectrodactyly are far more common than symmetric bilateral tridactyly without other hand or body anomalies. alteripse 21:35, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

A lack of fingers or toes is hypodactyly (compare with polydactyly, the condition of having extra fingers or toes; see dactyly for other words derived from the Greek δακτυλος, meaning "finger"). The condition of having only three fingers and a thumb is called tetradactyly. (The condition of having only three digits, including the thumb, would be tridactyly, however on the web I can only find this word used of three-toed ancestors of the horse, so I doubt that doctors use it). Gdr 16:22:06, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

1944 0r 1945 movie

In the movie the male role is a concert violinist. I think it was a Boyer movie and perhaps Alexiz Smith, but could be wrong on stars. I saw this movie twice in the summer of 1945 and agonized for years for the name and stars. Thank you for any help you can provide. Barbara Hayes Portsmouth, NH 03801 BahbNail@aol.com

• Is it perhaps The Constant Nymph from 1943? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 17:52, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Intermezzo? (From 1939) David Sneek 07:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Horse Endurance

What pace (miles per day), assuming adequate supply of food & water, can a horse laden only with rider and saddle be reasonably expected to maintain for an assumed indefinite period?

I tried to search for this information on Horse-related articles but found no answers... The Confessor 19:20, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

I think it's going to depend greatly on the type of horse. Trollderella 19:22, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

And the terrain. Dismas 19:44, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

And the intelligence of the rider, weather conditions, quality of the hooving, and so on... I'm looking for a very rough estimate, folks. The Confessor 20:11, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

This site says 30 to 35 miles a day on friendly terrain. The Pacific Crest Trail - definitely not friendly terrain - says expect 20 miles a day. Rmhermen 20:40, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Now, or 100 years ago? The difference is important, because today we are generally unwilling to ride a horse to death (or an early grave) whereas it was taken for granted that you would do this if there was a good reason (or even if there wasn't, if you could afford it). The horse's fitness is crucial too - ask "how many miles can a man walk in a day" and you'll see it rather depends. No, I don't have an answer, just complicating the question. Notinasnaid 09:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Distance of a Click in Science Fiction

What is the distance of a Click? The term is used in Science Fiction stories.

I've always thought it to be one kilometer. Meelar (talk) 20:14, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

I was about to say the same thing. My brother, who lives in Germany and therefore uses the metric system calls one kilometer a click on a regular basis. Dismas 20:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Click is commonly used here in Canada (where metric is used officially) to refer to "kilometre", or for "kilometre per hour". Ground Zero 20:54, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• You might be interested in [20], which distinguishes between klick as 1000 meters and click as one second of arc, since klick is the quote-unquote proper spelling of what you're asking about. Lomn | Talk 21:01:30, 2005-08-18 (UTC)

i see it used in 3d shooters and some american war series / movies, i believe it's indeed 1 kilometer. of course it would have been wise if you just looked it up on wiki, there answer is there click. Boneyard 09:31, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that click (with a c) refers specifically to a second of angle but instead refers to one turn on the elevation or windage turret on a rifle scope which can be from 1/4 of a minute of angle (moa) to 1 moa. 1 moa is approximately 1 inch at 100 yards, but if you do the trig it's more like 1.047 inches. --Think Fast 13:50, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Why do they call it a "click" or a "klick" instead of a "kilometre"? Is it just to avoid mentioning the name of a metric unit? — JIP | Talk 06:05, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia - Klick "The term is of unknown origin." I'd always thought it was just one of those military terms that came from Vietnam...203.59.117.99 08:13, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

But what's wrong with calling them kilometres? Xenophobia, or disgust towards words of more than one syllable? — JIP | Talk 09:44, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

No article about 'definition of time'

Hi there,

can you help to place an article on 'definition of time' in the wonderful Wikipeda on the wonderful world of web? This is a very important concept (word) in physics, philosophy, theology. etc.

My Google search did not recover a useful definitive if not definite definition of it. Even Einstein's quote 'time is something we measure with a clock' is more like in a circular logic; and it certainly is not good for use in theology. Dealing with 'time' concept in God-talk (theology), we see, there is no clock and there is no measurment act as such. Einstein as any other attemt to describe and define 'time' must be confusing it with 'duration of time'.

In my layman's opinion, a definition of time should have something do to with the basic frame-work of being in the sense of existence. Yes, a certain kind of frame-work, fundamental, even does not tied with 'spatial' dimension. The space-time concept in relativity theory, itself is a derived one and it needs its own definition.

But I don't think I can say a 'temporal' frame-work, however tempting it is, unless I first define 'temporal' without using the undefined word 'time' to avoid a circular logic. And along with defintion, an explanation of Planck time should be added as well as the discrete nature of time (not just continous seemly 'flowing' perception of it) a la quantum theory of physics.

Sincerely yours,

Oun Kwon, M.D. <email removed>

Have you seen the time article? It think it addresses some of the issues you've mentioned. Superm401 | Talk 20:45, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

And if it doesn't, feel free to add it yourself! — mark ✎ 21:37, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

We also already have an article on Planck time. Chuck 19:02, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

and then there's Time Travel

where we have to define dimension(s) of time. Just as Space is perhaps more than 3 dimensions because of the effects of Gravity, in the wonderful world of Science Fiction genre' of Time travel, there is chronological time that most of us experience, there are parallel realities that we can end up in, if we change some pivot point of history to have different results, there is the process of traveling sideways in time, between two or more of those multi-universe dimensions, and Karma, where our reality is dependent on some action by a time travler whose chronological past time can be interfered with, preventing whatever. AlMac|^(talk) 23:45, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

Frames for figures and text in Latex?

1. Is there any way to surround a figure or diagram by a thick black frame in LaTeX? How about a a block of text, like a chunk of source-code?

Thanks, 199 22:28, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

2. A second question: The first figure in chapter three of my paper is, quite rightly, labeled as figure 3.1. However, using \label{mypic.fig} and "see figure \ref{mypic.fig}" , I have my figure labeled 3.1 and the reference labeled 3.2, which is, of course, wrong. I've run pdflatex several times to try to get the labels to synch up, but they don't. This is possibly caused by the fact that I refer to the image at the beginning of section 3.2. As I specify that the image should be at the top of the page, it places the image above the section heading, technically in section 3.1. Thus, the figure is in section 3.1, the reference is in section 3.2, the figure is labeled 3.1 and the reference comes back as... 3.2. Is this related? How do I make the reference synch up with the label? I quite like the figure above the section heading, so I'd prefer not to mess with that. Thanks! 199 22:55, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

1. I know of two ways you can make a box around your text:

\begin{tabular}{ |p{5cm}| }
\hline
Here is my paragraph and it is quite pretty. \\
\hline
\end{tabular}

or

\framebox[1.1 \width]{Here's my paragraph again.}

I don't know if framebox can take images, so I'm not sure how to answer that part of your question.

2. In book format, my images are only numbered following chapter numbering, not section. For instance, the three images in Chapter 3 are 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 no matter what sections each appears in. In report format, my images are simply numbered consecutively, again independent of sections. Perhaps your label tag has fallen out of the figure environment and is labelling a section instead of a figure? --Laura Scudder | Talk 15:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Tinnitus Relief Program

Well, you could try this Google search --bodnotbod 23:28, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Macau

Does anyone know the biggest casino in Macau? Biggest in a profit sense. Rentastrawberry 23:35, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe check out the empire of Stanley Ho - 何鴻燊, who owns amoung many things, the Casino Lisboa? I don't know if it is the biggest in terms of profit, but certainly very famous and well known. It is a very popular casino. --HappyCamper 23:48, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

madrid bombings

how do i find out who died in the bombings

You might start with 11 March 2004 Madrid train bombings article AlMac|^(talk) 03:14, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Help identifying birds

Could someone help me identify these pictures of birds I took at the San Diego Zoo? I think they are hornbills but I would like to know what species excactly. I recorded audio notes on my camera but apparently they don't transfer over to your PC. Thanks, Taco Deposit | Talk-o to Taco 02:43, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

• 
  Unknown bird #1
• 
  Unknown bird #2
• 
  Unknown bird #3

I've no idea myself, but -- did the zoo have just one species of hornbills or several? If they had just one, you could try phoning them and asking what species it is. --Zeborah 21:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Alternatively you could email them (probably best to provide a URL linking to pictures rather than email the pictures themselves). Contact details are at the zoo website. --Zeborah 23:56, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, all hornbills;

1. probably a female Aceros corrugatus
2. Penelopides exarhatus
3. male Ceratogymna atrata

Note that it is generally considered bad form to illustrate articles with pictures of obvious captive birds/animals! - MPF 11:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

A general tip for getting info on pics of unidentified animals, plants, etc., - you're likely to get a better response posting at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tree of Life: many of the regulars there don't look in here very often - MPF 11:24, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

What is the term for telling the time by the stars?

Do we have an article? Trollderella 03:01, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Not sure what the term is, but the instruments to do this include the astrolabe and planisphere. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:42, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

OK, will start something at star clock, stellar chonography or telling the time by the stars - any ideas which?! Trollderella 16:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the word you are looking for is "sidereal" which means "of, relating to, or concerned with the stars". A "sidereal day", for example, is a calculation of the Earth's rotation relative to the stars, not to the Sun. See a more thorough explanation at Orbital period. :-) Jwrosenzweig 11:24, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Photo copyrights

Hi, this is just a hypothetical question, but if I wanted to remove my images from wikipedia, do I still have the rights to do so after I have released them under the GFDL? If not, is there a wiki accepted copyright tag which would allow me to have those rights?

Thanks --Fir0002 03:26, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

if I wanted to remove my images from wikipedia, do I still have the rights to do so after I have released them under the GFDL?

No, you'd have to send them through WP:IFD, where they would most surely be kept because they're excellent, they're in use and they seem to be mostly GFDL.

If not, is there a wiki accepted copyright tag which would allow me to have those rights?

No, after some talking in #wikipedia, I'm pretty sure that would qualify the image as not "free", which means it will not be allowed to be used on Wikipedia in the first place. ¦ Reisio 04:30, 2005 August 19 (UTC)

How about the " copyrighted. The copyright holder allows anyone to use it for any purpose" like in Image:Cat outside.jpg? --Fir0002 07:08, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I think you can add a tag to let people know that you hold the copyright, as long as it is not more restrictive than the GFDL. Not a lawyer, however - we could really use some lines drawn by the high-ups on this matter, imo. ¦ Reisio 15:20, 2005 August 19 (UTC)

• What would happen if things were uploaded by someone claiming to be the copyright holder, releasing the images under the GFDL, but not having the legal authorization to do it?

  Eventually, when the true copyright holder became aware of this and did object, he'd complain, either informally on the mailing list or e.g. on this very page or on some other Wikipedia page, or more formally by e-mailing Jimbo or even sending an official DMCA takedown notice. We'd ponder the claim, and if we thought it was credible, the image would be taken down. I've seen all of these happen. The more formal and credible such a request is, the greater the likelihood that Wikipedia agrees to remove the image. With informal requests, it may well happen that Wikipedia decides to keep the image because it is basically the say-so of the uploader against that of the complaintant. Especially if the uploader is a well-respected Wikipedian, we generally trust their judgement more than just some random outsider claiming copyright. There are "businesses" making money by bullying others with dubious copyright claims to pay for image uses. Lupo 06:21, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

  Sometimes, alert Wikipedians notice such cases, though (especially when the image comes from some other website). The procedure in such cases is to replace the wrong GFDL (or PD) tag with {{imagevio|url=...}} and list the image at WP:CP, or, in truly unclear cases, replace the "free" tag with {{unknown}} and a comment explaining why the previous "free" tag seemed dubious. In the latter case, it's also a good idea to contact the uploader (or whoever tagged the image) asking for clarification. WP:PUI is another possibility to deal with such cases. Lupo 06:27, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Does this mean that it is not possible for a photographer to ever change a copyright notice on one of his images once he's labeled it? — Asbestos | Talk (RFC) 09:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

As a practical matter, you could delete your images from the Wikipedia image server: however, AFAIK, you can't revoke the GFDL licence, and people would be free to use any copies of the image that they have (cached, for example) under the original licence. The ability of the owner of a copyright to control the licences they have granted will depend on the terms of those licences. If you have granted an irrevocable licence then (surprise) you won't be able to revoke it. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:27, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Someone earlier was considering whether a copyright notice could be added without blocking free use. It most definitely can. In fact, GFDL requires the work to be copyrighted first, then licensed, and a copyright notice should be present wherever a GFDL notice is. Superm401 | Talk 15:37, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

How common is female beauty, really?

I am interested in actual staitstical information regarding the proportion of beautiful women within a population. I know that this sounds like a silly thing to study, but...

All, or at least most, of us are familiar with how the media is always on the lookout for beautiful women, etc. And we are, like, she's beautiful and can sing, or she's beautiful and can act, or fight well, etc. And I keep saying, female beauty is remarkably common.

For example, almost any woman (at least 85 percent I would guess, but this is just a wild guess) between the ages 18 to 25 are attractive enough to hold jobs as strippers. But I've been to strip clubs and, trust me, you don't have to be beautiful to be a stripper.

How common is it for a woman to be beautiful enough to, for example, be a model? I know some of these models look rather different when all glammed up. I would guess, if they worked at it (fitness, etc.) at least 2 percent of the women ages 18 to 25 are attractive enough to be swimsuit models. But there seem to be criteria other than beauty.

I am looking for figures-- or, what would be better than figures would simply be to see pictures of 50th percentile women, 90th percentile women, etc., labeled as such. I believe that female beauty is nothing to write home about, and I wish to sort of prove this.

And for what it's worth, I live in Connecticut, USA.

--User:Juuitchan

If you're going to be statistical and discuss percentiles, etc, it would seem you must first quantify beauty. Everything after that is trivial. Lomn | Talk 04:45:56, 2005-08-19 (UTC)

You're not looking for ratios, just greater-than and less-than. Greater-than and less-than are all you need to establish percentile rankings. --Juuitchan

Sure. However, greater than and less than imply quantification. blue is neither less nor more than orange until you define it in terms of, say, wavelength. In fact, without quantification, you could easily say that they are not objectively distinct from one another. What's my point? Getting raw data isn't your problem. Lomn | Talk 04:57:58, 2005-08-19 (UTC)

The SI unit of course is the millihelen, the amount of beauty required to launch one ship.--Pharos 04:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Pharos, you rock. --Brasswatchman 05:18, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Um, my understanding was that the number of women making a full-time living from fashion modelling is tiny. Really, really, small. Like, under 1000 worldwide. But that was just hearsay from a friend whose hobby was running a modelling website. --Robert Merkel 05:12, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Maybe what she is asking is a percentage of the women who adhere to the so-called standard of beauty in culture - i.e. large breasts, thin waist? In which case, wouldn't this basically be a genetic study? I think I've heard of something along those lines being done - the number it came up with was of course very very small. --Brasswatchman 05:18, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

I still don't see how you can do this. To some, skinny women are beautiful, to others, fat women are beautiful. Yet both of them are able to find modeling jobs. Then are you going to include fashion models but not catalog models, porn models, etc.? Using wide sweeping terms like "model" and then putting them through a subjective screening process seems very unscientific to me. Dismas 06:00, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

You can answer this question without trying to define beauty by applying the http://amihotornot.com/ methodology: ask a sample of people to rate each other. Then extrapolate. Gdr 06:39:08, 2005-08-19 (UTC)

It will also depend on the audience. To take an obvious reductio ad absurdam case, among gay men, the answer would be zero percent. - MPF 11:31, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Are oxidation numbers written with the sign, in chemical names?

After reading over the Chemistry pages, including oxidation number, inorganic nomenclature and other pages, I am still confused by this. When writing a iron atom which has gained three electrons, would this be written iron(III) or iron(-III)? A second, related question is about the old oxidation naming scheme, with hypo- -ous up to per- -ic; how does this integrate with the numarical system, or with the roman numerals? After I get an answer to this question, I will probably try to improve the respective articles to clarify them. Thanks in advance! JesseW 07:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

• Iron(III) is actually positively charged, so it would've lost 3 electrons. But you got it pretty much right. You don't use a minus sign, as the first element in such a name is the positively charged species; things like chloride are NEVER written as chloride(-I). - 131.211.210.12 11:15, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

• See Iron#Compounds for a list of its oxidation states, from Iron(II) (Fe⁺²) to Iron(VI) (Fe⁺⁶), and the rather odd-looking Fe₃C (cementite - presumably Iron(I) and a tri-valent Carbon?). Can Iron be an anion without chelation? Valency may also help. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
• Funny, I've been thaught to put the plus sign behind the number (Fe⁶⁺. - 131.211.210.12 12:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
• Sorry for the multiple edits: I'm quite positive that Iron is never an anion unless it's part of a chelate that is net negative because of it's negative ions. - 131.211.210.12 12:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
• See also Systematic name for some of the old naming system. Rmhermen 12:53, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, under Stock nomenclature, where the oxidation state is included in the name, negative oxidation states are indicated with a minus sign: for example, tetracarbonylferrate(-II), [Fe(CO)₄]^2- (this is a very rare example of iron in a negative oxidation state). Roman numerals are still used, because there is a seperate method of naming ions where the (arabic) number in parentheses indicates the charge. The same distinction is used in formulae: roman numerals for oxidation state (with the minus sign before the numeral) and arabic numerals for charge (with the sign after the numeral). Hence we could write [Fe^-II(CO)₄]^2- or Fe^IICl₂, but we don't because there is no need. However you might see the formula of magnetite (Fe₃O₄) written as Fe^IIFe^III₂O₄, as this gives some more information about the structure. Having said all that, it is unusual to have to indicate a negative oxidation number. Physchim62 22:10, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

arrest warrants

How do police obtain search warrants?

Assuming we're talking about the US, they are granted them from judges of the courts relevant to where the police wish to act. See our articles on search warrant and arrest warrant (note that they are different). Garrett Albright 10:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I believe the same is true in other jurisdictions, including UK. DJ Clayworth 17:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, unless of course you want to take some sort of train, then you are subject to random search and seizure, so don't carry anything you don't want to show up in a court room (-; - 'me

Anti Hijacking strategy

Sir, I am an Advocate practicing in yhe High Court of Andhra Pradesh,India.Hijacking is a global menace with which every one of us is concerned.I have toiled innumerable ways whether there could be a solution for the problem of Hijacking in the event of occurence of which,how best the lives of innocent people can saved.My extensive research in this area yielded good results in terms of arriving at a positive system of unarming the Hijackers.Although this method can be theoretically proved,it further needs a final touch before it is openly demonstrsted in the presence of experts,I can guarantee 100% foolproof system and if adopted,thousands of human lives can be saved from torture,humiliation and death,thus contributing my humle mite to the cause of humanity. I request you sir to guide me to further my invention and demonstrate it on secret platform. I will be awaiting a prompt reply.Thanking you sir

P.Ashok Chakravarthy

Welcome to Wikipedia. This page is for asking specific questions on a wide range of topics. Do you have a question? Garrett Albright 10:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The thing I don't get about these questions is how people learn to edit pages faster than they learn what Wikipedia is. It seems to be the opposite for most editors. I think this belongs on WP:BJAODN.Superm401 | Talk 15:47, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Or possibly they just don't care. To them Wikipedia is just blank space waiting for them to write whatever they want.

To the original poster I sugest you contact they Indian government, or whatever corresponds to the Department of Homeland Security there. If they are not interested I think it unlikely anyone else will be. DJ Clayworth 17:43, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

1. Find and consult a patent attorney to help you do a patent search, since many other people have made claims similar to yours, and got patents based on those claims.
2. Seek out discussion sites (Wikopedia is not a discussion site) focused on airline disasters, so you can see evaluation of past proposals that sound similar to your claimes, but can have fatal flaws.
   1. example: alarm system on aircraft to alert ground to fact of hijacking in progess, system on ground to take over control of the aircraft to get it to an airforce base, rather than a commercial airport, and put everyone on board to sleep ... the flaw in this scheme is it ends up being placed on a computer system that can be hacked by the very people we do not want in command of the skies.

AlMac|^(talk) 21:20, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Poet name please

Hi

Please advise who wrote this stanza, it is part of a larger poem:

the fog floats in with the tide and lies on the mosses, branching up the channels like the veins on an old man’s hand

Thanks

Heidi

Heidi, I can't recall ever having seen these lines (I'm a literature teacher and an amateur poet...so perhaps my familiarity counts for something, and perhaps not). More to the point, Google can't find any copy of a poem containing these lines...and Google can usually track down any poem I've forgotten. Is it possible you've remembered the lines slightly wrong? Any information you might have about the poem (written by a famous poet? written by a local performance poet from a given area? read in a lit class? read in a magazine?) would help us identify it more quickly. Jwrosenzweig 11:33, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Mathematical Reasoning: All Cats Are Black?

What is wrong with the following "proof" by mathematical induction that all cats are black? Let P(n) denote the statement: In any group of n cats, if one is black, then they are all black.

Step 1 The statement is clearly true for n=1.

Step 2 Suppose that P(k) is true. We show that P(k+1) is true. Suppose we have a group of k+1 cats, one of whom is black; call this cat "Midnight." Remove some other cat (call it "Sparky") from the group. We are left with k cats, one of whom (Midnight) is black, so by the induction hypothesis, all k of these are black. Now put Sparky back in the group and take out Midnight. We again have a group of k cats, all of whom -- except possibly Sparky -- are black. Then by mathematical induction, Sparky must be black, too. So all k+1 cats in the original group are black.

Thus, by induction P(n) is true for all n. Since everyone has seen at least one black cat, it follows that all cats are black. --anonym.

That's simple, you've never shown that P(k+1) is true. The false statement is "We are left with k cats, one of whom (Midnight) is black, so by the induction hypothesis, all k of these are black." It fails common sense and logic. - Taxman ^Talk 12:37, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit more subtle than that. We know that P(1) is true, and we appear to have shown that if P(k) is true then P(k+1) is also true. The principle of mathematical induction would then let us conclude that P(k) is true for all (positive integer) values of k. You don't need to prove that P(k) is actually true - only that P(k) leads to P(k+1). The flaw is that the reasoning that we have used to get from P(k) to P(k+1) does not actually work for the step from P(1) to P(2). Gandalf61 14:55, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

The problem is with "so by the induction hypothesis, all k of these are black." It's not the same k, so you have to reprove that the current set of k is all black. Superm401 | Talk 15:59, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

See horse paradox Gdr 13:16:45, 2005-08-19 (UTC)

• see: do your own CS homework paradox - somebody

It's also possible to prove by induction that in a multi-storey building, the elevator is always going in the right direction. Proof:

• Let P(k) denote that the elevator is always going in the right direction in a k-storey building.
• It's obvious that P(1) (the elevator doesn't have to go anywhere) and P(2) (the elevator only has one place to go) are true.
• Assume P(k) is true and consider a k+1 -storey building. In the first k floors, the elevator is going in the right direction (by assumption). The k+1:th floor is the top floor, so the elevator only has one direction to go. Therefore P(k+1) is true.

The mistake here is obvious. — JIP | Talk 07:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

APR of a Fixed Rate Mortgage

A couple borrows $100,000 at 9% interest as a mortgage loan on a house. They expect to make monthly payments for 30 years to repay the loan. What is the size of each payment? Also, find the annual percentage rate (APR)?

The mortgage payments form an annuity whose present value is $A_{p}=\$100,000$. Also, $i=0.09/12=0.0075$, and $n=12*30=360$. We are looking for the amount R of each payment. From the formula for installment buying we have

$R={\frac {iA_{p}}{1-(1+i)^{-n}}}$

$R={\frac {(0.0075)(100,000)}{1-(1+0.0075)^{-360}}}$

$R\approx \$804.62$.

Here is where I am stuck. Can someone explain mathematically how I can find the APR? --anonym

Our APR artice is actually really good. Everything I would have said about the uselessness of the APR is there as it the general method of calculating it. Essentially it is a way to account for fixed upfront costs, such as costs and points. You need to know what those are to calculate an APR, and you haven't mentioned those. That's probably your sticking point. - Taxman ^Talk 12:34, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

• Another lender produces the following quote for an interest only home mortgage.

New 30 Year ARM Mortgage	524,000
Proposed New Rate	1.00%
Proposed New APR	$4.875%
Proposed New Payment	$1,685.39

Now I can see that$R={\frac {iA_{p}}{1-(1+i)^{-n}}}$ becomes

$R={\frac {(.01/12)(524,000)}{1-(1+.01/12)^{-360}}}$.

Therefore,${\mathit {R=\$1,685.39}}$. What are points? How does the APR relate to points here? Is there an equation that relates the APR and other variables I have given hereon to points? --anonym

Points is just a term used in the US mortgage industry to refer to extra upfront costs (a percentage point of the loan amount) that the borrower can pay in order to get a lower interest rate. You can pay two points for example and get a lower upfront interest rate. the amount the rate is lower depends on the offer, the lender, etc. It is often used to advertize lower rates than can really be gotten, with or without telling the borrower there are extra costs involved. So read the APR article, and use that method to calculate the APR, just add any points as upfront costs, which they are. I'm not sure if points are used this way anywhere else, so I haven't added this to any articles. - Taxman ^Talk 21:41, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

US ARMY - VOCO CONFIRMED

A young lady is recruited by the Army and decided she does not want to enlist and through letters and contacting her local commander received a form of discharge papers. It does not state honorable or dishonorable information but the letter reads - You are seperated from Component Indicated: DELAYED ENTRY PROGRAM, FORT KNOX, KY 40121 - effective June 5, 2005 (VOCO Confirmed)- Can you tell me what does that mean - does she still have to report to the Army at a later date?

Carol Williamson

Wouldn't her local commander be able to answer this question with more detail and quicker than posting it here? Or the recruiter? Dismas 13:46, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm. Given the potential legal implications, if she doesn't receive a satisfactory answer from the local commander (or would prefer not to contact them) she might be well-advised to consult a lawyer. --Robert Merkel 06:03, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Google sez it's a standard Army form letter for being separated from the Delayed Entry Program. There's no honorable or dishonorable information because it is a "separation", not a "discharge". Discharge only applies when you're actually in the Army. "VOCO confirmed" means it's confirming a voice communication, as far as I can tell. -- Cyrius|✎ 20:02, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

George Washington page:

http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/George_Washington This page is slated for demolition according to a notice I saw yesterday. Why? Apparently, there is some procedure to vote to keep the page, but I could not find it. Please consider this as my vote to keep this page.

By "slated for demolition" I think you mean "Vote for Deletion" but don't worry, that was just an act of vandalism by someone. The page will be kept. Dismas 13:48, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

There is justice after all. Thanks! - ME

Question about natural abundance of isotopes

The article on lead states that the 210 isotope is a synthetic radioisotope, an article containing the phrase "no natural process or mechanism exists which produces it, or it is so unstable that it decays away in a very short period of time".

This appears to contradict what I read at [21], a site of the US Geological Survey, so with considerable credibility.

I realize I am way out of my depth here, but I have two questions:

• 210 has a half-life of 20-odd years, so it's not that unstable. Should it really be marked synthetic radioisotope?

Probably not, judging by the linked page--but the reason it's wrong to call ²¹⁰Pb synthetic is not because of it's half-life (20-odd years is a short time when you're talking about geologic time scales--note the radioactive isotopes of lead which do have a measurable natural abundance have half-lives on the order of 10⁷ years) but because there's a natural process which produces ²¹⁰Pb as noted on the USGS page. Chuck 19:25, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

• Is the definition of "synthetic" itself, as used above, not a bit arbitrary and misleading?

Probably so--what constitutes "a very short period of time" is unclear from the article. Chuck 19:25, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Thank you. 82.210.117.55 15:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I suspect "synthetic isotope" was used here to mean the first part, "synthesised, not produced naturally". I also suspect that, as you point out, they're wrong :-)

The talk page of the Lead article would probably be a good place to raise this question, or possibly the talk page of the Isotopes wikiproject, though I don't know if it's currently active. Shimgray 15:50, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Lead-210 should have been marked as a trace radioisotope, as it is formed on a minor branch of the uranium-238 decay chain. The correction has been made, other such errors should be brought to the attention of WikiProject Elements which looks after these pages. Physchim62 22:20, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

LaTeX tables

Can anyone help me with this? I'm trying to create a table in latex that will look like this

    Input   Output   Formula
    -------------------------
      A        1      x = f(y)
      B        2
      C        3
    / D        4
   <| E        5
    \ F        6

(though with different stuff in the table). In particular, the main difficulty is getting a curly brace on the outside of the last three values, and also getting the inside to align well with the titles. I've tried all kinds of table nesting, but I can't work out how to do it.

Any help REALLY appreciate, thanks! Mary K 15:44, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Are you wanting to create this in ordinary LaTeX or in a mixture of Wikimarkup and LaTeX? If you want it in ordinary LaTeX, then this gets close enough, as long as you have remebered to \usepackage{} as appropriate:

\begin{table}

\centering

\begin{tabular}{r|c|c}

Input & Output & Formula\\

\hline

A & 1 & $x=f_1(y)$\\

B & 2 & $x=f_2(y)$\\

$\left\{\begin{matrix} \mathrm{C} \\ \mathrm{D} \\ \mathrm{E} \end{matrix} \right.$ & 3 & $x=f_3(y)$ \\

F & 4 & $x=f_4(y)$

\end{tabular}

\end{table}

If you don't want the vertical lines, just take them out of the curly braces on the line starting \begin{tabular}.

This won't work in the restricted version of LaTeX available in MediaWiki (doesn't LaTeX tables for a start), so if that's what you're after give me a prod on my talk page. -Splash 19:41, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I don't don't have LaTeX at work to experiment with, but I would try something like:

\usepackage{multirow}
\begin{tabular}{c|c|c|c}
& Input & Output & Formula \\
\hline
& A & 1 & $x = f(y)\\
& B & 2 & \\
& C & 3 & \\
\multirow{3}{*}{ \Bigg\{ } & D & 4 & \\
& E & 5 & \\
& F & 6 & \\
\end{tabular}

This avoids nesting, although I don't know if multirow is a default package. You'd have to manually tweek the size of the \Bigg\{ and your horizontal like would be over the brace's column also, but that's a small price to pay. --Laura Scudder | Talk 19:23, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

George Washington Delete

George Washington page: http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/George_Washington This page is slated for demolition according to a notice I saw yesterday. Why? Apparently, there is some procedure to vote to keep the page, but I could not find it. Please consider this as my vote to keep this page.

Don't worry, that page is not likely to be deleted. DJ Clayworth 17:39, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Anyone can add the Votes for Deletion tag to an article and this is sometimes abused by vandals. When it's clearly not a good-faith nomination, a full vote isn't held and the article is kept. The tag on George Washington has already been removed. --Laura Scudder | Talk 20:06, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Website charting history of female beauty

I saw a website a while back with a history of what was considered attractive through history, but I lost it - anyone know what I'm talking about? Trollderella 17:35, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

There seem to be a few around, including this and this. --Zeborah 12:12, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Prison called "Tent Prison"

Where is the prison called "Tent Prison" located? I thought it was in Arizona but cannot find it. Thank you <contact information removed>

I believe you are thinking of the Maricopa County Prison featured here on CNN. --CVaneg 20:23, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Mathematical relations

Can anybody confirm that these two (unrelated) mathematical relations are correct? If they are correct, how can it be proved?

$\sum _{i}\left|x^{i}\right|={\frac {1}{1-x}}\,\,\,\,\,{\mbox{if}}\left|x\right|<1\,\,\,\,\,\forall \;x\in \mathbb {R} \ {\mbox{and}}\,\,i\in \mathbb {N} \$

${\frac {1}{\sum _{i}^{n}{\frac {1}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}}}\;\leq {\frac {1}{n^{2}}}\sum _{i=1}{x_{i}}^{2}\,\,\,\,\,\forall \;x\in \mathbb {R} \ {\mbox{and}}\,\,i\in \mathbb {N} \$

Thank you very much. --Edcolins 19:14, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

You first one is a geometric series, which can be done by partial sums:

$S_{n}\equiv 1+x+x^{2}+\ldots +x^{n}$

$S_{n+1}=1+x+x^{2}+\ldots +x^{n}+x^{n+1}=1+xS_{n}$

We can write two formulae for the difference between these partial sums:

$S_{n+1}-S_{n}=x^{n+1}$ and $S_{n+1}-S_{n}=1+(x-1)S_{n}$

So equating thoe two we get

$x^{n+1}=1+(x-1)S_{n}$

$S_{n}={\frac {1-x^{n+1}}{1-x}}$

The sum's limit can be found by sending n to infinity, which gives your result above. Your second one can be done using the triangle inequality. --Laura Scudder | Talk 19:37, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Excellent. Many thanks. --Edcolins 19:52, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, while your derivation is right, this is not what Edcolins asked. Notice the absolute value signs. If -1<x<0 the first equation is false, since the left hand side would be equal to ${\frac {1}{1-|x|}}={\frac {1}{1+x}}$ and not to ${\frac {1}{1-x}}$. Ornil 20:26, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Notice that the derivation still works if you replace x with |x| with no changes to any steps, so the result above is lacking absolute value signs. --Laura Scudder | Talk 21:59, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, the second one isn't true if any of the x_i=0, because then the left hand side of the equation is undefined. But it's true if you add the limitation x≠0. (Note all multiplication steps here are by positive numbers.)

${\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}-1\right)}^{2}\geq 0$

${\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)}^{2}-2\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+1\geq 0$

${\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)}^{2}+1\geq 2\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)$

${\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}+{\frac {{x_{j}}^{2}}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}\geq 2$

$\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}\left({\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}+{\frac {{x_{j}}^{2}}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}\right)\geq \sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}2$ (That is, i and j are between 1 and n inclusive, with i<j)

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{j}}^{2}}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}\right)\geq n^{2}-n$

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\left(\sum _{i=2}^{n}\sum _{j=1}^{i-1}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)\geq n^{2}-n$ (Change indices on the second sum, such that i and j are between 1 and n inclusive, with i>j)

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\left(\sum _{i=2}^{n}\sum _{j=1}^{i-1}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+n\geq n^{2}$

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\left(\sum _{i=2}^{n}\sum _{j=1}^{i-1}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\sum _{i=1}^{n}1\geq n^{2}$

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n-1}\sum _{j=i+1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\left(\sum _{i=2}^{n}\sum _{j=1}^{i-1}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\right)+\sum _{i=1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}\geq n^{2}$ (The rightmost sum will cover the case where i=j.)

$\sum _{i=1}^{n}\sum _{j=1}^{n}{\frac {{x_{i}}^{2}}{{x_{j}}^{2}}}\geq n^{2}$

$\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n}{x_{i}}^{2}\right)\left(\sum _{i=1}^{n}{\frac {1}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}\right)\geq n^{2}$

${\frac {1}{n^{2}}}\sum _{i=1}^{n}{x_{i}}^{2}\geq {\frac {1}{\sum _{i=1}^{n}{\frac {1}{{x_{i}}^{2}}}}}$

Chuck 21:38, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Minor corrections made; had wrong upper limit on some of the double sums. Chuck 21:03, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Wow! I leave for a few hours and all this beautiful math is here! Anyway, there is a bit of elegant insight into the second inequality, that is, into how the inequality was constructed for one to prove. Take a look at this inequality between the harmonic mean and the arithmetic mean:

${\frac {n}{\sum _{i=1}^{n}{\frac {1}{a_{i}}}}}\;\leq {\frac {1}{n}}\sum _{i=1}^{n}a_{i}\,\,\,\,\,\forall \;x\in \mathbb {R} \ {\mbox{and}}\,\,i\in \mathbb {N} \$

See the substitutions? To start the proof, one can prove the inequality between the harmonic mean and arithmetic mean first, and the make the appropriate substitutions so that the form of the inequality matches the question. Hope that helps! --HappyCamper 02:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Questions moved

To Wikipedia:Reference desk/130.111.96.164 --CVaneg 20:18, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Water the contradiction

Out of all the liquids on our planet why does water expand when frozen while all others contract or become denser? Thanks,Zane

Our ice article says "This is due to hydrogen bonds forming between the water molecules, which line up molecules less efficiently (in terms of volume) when water is frozen". -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:39, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

DUr, it's not the only liquid that does this, it's just the most common example of a universal solvent, so you hear about it more than the rest - someone

"Take you down to Chinatown"

Where does this phrase originate? I assumed it must have been first used in a film or something (as with "frankly my dear I don't give a damn"), but a quick inspection of google turns up no obvious candidate for its first use. Any ideas? — Trilobite (Talk) 22:45, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The first place I heard it was Meet the Parents. Not that I consider myself some sort of benchmark for all other men to be measured against, but it's a start. Also, looking at the movie connections portion for that movie on IMDB, I don't really see any other good candidates for the origin of that phrase. Of course IMDB is not guaranteed complete nor are you guaranteed that the phrase came from a movie. --CVaneg 23:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

I also turned up Meet the Parents but I had a feeling I'd heard it before seeing that film. I could be imagining that though. Interestingly, Meet the Parents appears to have been first released on 6 October 2000, but the first use of the phrase that appears in Google Groups was a couple of months earlier, on 9 August of that year [22]. I wonder if anyone else recalls hearing it more than five years ago. — Trilobite (Talk) 23:16, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

So in current usage what does the phrase mean?

It seems usually to mean that the speaker is threatening someone with physical violence. (When it appeared in Meet the Parents, being "taken down to Chinatown" was the result promised to Ben Stiller's character if it turned out he'd been lying...certainly seems threatening to me.) As far as why that particular phrase was used, I'd argue two likely reasons--euphony and American cultural associations. The internal rhyme in the phrase just plain sounds good -- see "We gonna rock down to Electric Avenue" for another example of an otherwise obscure phrase that derives its popularity from internal rhyme.  :-) The American cultural associations are a bit hazier, but I'd suggest that, for many Americans, "Chinatown" is associated with fear and violence -- Chinatowns, after all, were urban environments (and usually less desirable ones...racism kept Chinese immigrants from moving into many of the better maintained parts of town) in which a white American who spoke only English might feel very alone and isolated (and therefore threatened...xenophobia is no stranger to the United States). Add to that the many movies that involve gangsters and intrigue in backrooms and warehouses in Chinatowns, and I think that's as close to an origin for the phrase as we're likely to get. I've never seen any explicit origin, at least, though I hope one can be found that's superior to my speculations. :-) Jwrosenzweig 11:53, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I'd say your speculations were spot on. Now thinking about it I'm really not sure if I did hear it before Meet the Parents, we'll just have to wait and see if anyone passing through remembers an earlier use of it. — Trilobite (Talk) 15:25, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Possibly a reference to the film Chinatown, by Roman Polanksi? Brasswatchman August 20, 2005. 1:23 PM EST.

It's a line from Cab Calloway's song "The Hi De Ho Man", which he first sang at the Cotton Club in 1931. The next line is "And show you how to kick the gong around", which I don't understand either, but it sounds like a reference to racial violence. --Heron 19:08, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Nope! It's called Minnie the Moocher (the red-hot hoochie koocher). To "kick the gong" is to smoke opium. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:32, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Correction: it wasn't "The Hi De Ho Man", it was "Minnie the Moocher", and the lines are "He took her down to Chinatown / And showed her how to kick the gong around." The place and date I gave above were correct, though. --Heron 19:30, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

• How the heck did that happen without an edit conflict? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 19:35, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Dunno, but thank you for clearing up the "gong" thing. That has been puzzling me for years. --Heron 21:06, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

There's also a song from the same era just called "Kickin' the Gong Around", same significance. Pretty sure Cab Calloway recorded that one too. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:06, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

So it was around before Meet the Parents. Thanks for that. — Trilobite (Talk) 12:17, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

catholic

Do I really have to be cathlic to enter your school?

No. You must accept the Church of Wikipedia. There is no God but NPOV and Jimbo is its prophet. ~~ N (t/c) 23:07, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

What's with this all of a sudden, we seem to have a spate of these... Trollderella 23:28, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

It's a recurring phenomenon that's been with us for some time. I've seen this kind of thing pop up in the past and wondered what exactly it was that made the person leaving the note think we were a school of some sort. To the person who left this message: if you come back, could you tell us what it was that led you to think we were an educational institution of the kind you could enter? I'd be very interested to know. — Trilobite (Talk) 23:33, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Rather tenuous, but could it be the custom of educational institutions being involved with academic publishing? Oxford with its dictionaries and, er, well I'm sure there's other examples. --bodnotbod 00:30, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

I think that all these people asking irrelevant questions have just found a Wikipedia article on google and assume that this is actually the website of the organization they are researching.--Pharos 06:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

I think this happens a lot. Another funny thing is people thinking articles about celebrities of some kind are their personal websites, and leaving them messages on the talk pages, e.g. [23] and countless others. — Trilobite (Talk) 15:28, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you think about it, Wikipedia is what Internet was sort of supposed to be like, with information all in one place, unbiased (scientific) and easily accessible. So many people really take these articles as the authoritative place and as the point to contact the person/organization in question. You know, perhaps in a few years an agent of every organization/person of note would be monitoring their wikipedia page, just in case:) Ornil 15:46, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

technically shouldn't that be "...some people assert that there is no God but NPOV...." DJ Clayworth 23:44, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Also, you forgot the PBUH after Jimbo's name...Brian Schlosser42 14:20, 22 August 2005 (UTC)