Wikipedia:Non-free content review/Archive 18

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File:ST-VOY Time and Again.jpg

This image is too dubious, and the article still lacks enough balance. --George Ho (talk) 23:32, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Has rationale, and common practice is to include an image from the episode in the episode's article, as I noted in section two above. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Easily described by text, and not a scene of note in the article. Delete. --MASEM (t) 02:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

• If you're going to do that, then all episode shots from this series should be grouped together in an AfD. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:05, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, not necessarily. Not that I've looked at that, but there may be cases within the series where there's critical reception of the scene (mind you, my knowledge of Voyager says, "very unlikely" given the general lack of any critical reception for the individual episodes). A mass FFD would be disruptive, but I'm sure there's an appropriate venue somewhere (WP:TV maybe) to get input. --MASEM (t) 03:10, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

• In cases where the images are not mentioned in particular, not doing a group FFD is itself disruptive. Doing it piecemeal causes an enormous amount of work, rather than the whole issue being discussed in a reasonable fashion in one coherent place. --Hammersoft (talk) 03:25, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Cougar town 109 thanksgiving.jpg

This image is not part of article's critical commentary. It may identify the episode, but it may fail WP:NFCC criteria. --George Ho (talk) 23:31, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Has rationale, and common practice is to include an image from the episode in the episode's article, as I noted in the previous section. --Hammersoft (talk) 23:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

• Easily described by text, and a scene of no note in sources. Delete. --MASEM (t) 02:44, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Can you nominate it for deletion? --George Ho (talk) 03:01, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
    • I've simply removed it, a bot will tag it orphaned, and it will be deleted in 7 days unless restored. If it restored, then FFD would be the next step. --MASEM (t) 03:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
      • And I've restored it. Per my comments in the next section, there should be a centralized discussion regarding screenshots not specifically mentioned in the article. Please don't misinterpret my action; I'm not trying to be obstructionist here. But, given the enormous amount of discussion that erupts over NFCC enforcement, not having a centralized discussion to refer to as supporting proof of the need of removal is bad. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:32, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
        • We already have advice, from the TV project itself, from WP:MOSTV : "For episode articles, a screenshot may only be used if it meets the Non-free content criteria, i.e., (typically) if it is required to illustrate a crucial element of the episode - that is, the object of explicit, sourced analytical commentary - and where that commentary is in need of visual support to be understood. There is no blanket allowance for an image per episode." There is no need for central discussion when this has been long-standing, its just a matter of cleaning up under it. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
          • (please take as humor) Is there where I'm supposed to say you're being heavy handed? As would be said back to me if I tried it, WP:MOSTV isn't policy. Further, common practice is that there is an allowance for an image per episode where the episode has its own article. It's all over the place (ex: Category:Monk episodes, Category:South Park (season 9) episodes. So, we have a case where reality and guideline don't agree. You claim reality is wrong, but if I fix it I'm being heavy handed and if you do it you're...what? An angel? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
            • I understand the humor, but it's important to separate OTHERSTUFFEXISTS logic from what actually is established. Unless there has been some significant review of the articles, we can't just if the image use is appropriate, being aware that newer editors tend to follow the patterns of established articles without referring to guidelines ("Oh that episode article has an image, must be okay here..."). Given that I've gotten one positive response at the TV project to clean up the various series of inappropriate screenshots for infoboxes, it is definitely true that the practice is not for automatic allowance for images and they must follow NFCC. --MASEM (t) 15:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
              • I think you are wrong. First, Wikiprojects don't set policy. Second, the common practice is as I described. It's not a question of otherstuffexists. It's a question of what is routinely done. Episodic screenshots exist in probably thousands of articles across the project. Whether it is wrong or right is really beside the point at this point; it's not a clear violation of WP:NFCC, and there's no question this sort of use is very common. What are you going to do when these sorts of uses are routinely reverted? Is that when you become heavy handed, point to a wikiproject and a manual of style and declare them to be wrong? Or, as you seem to have previously suggested in related matters, we have to bring each of these cases here or to FfD? Hmm? --Hammersoft (talk) 17:45, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
                • First, WP:TV's guideline on episode article images falls right in line with NFCC; my point is that the fact the project acknowledges there is no immediately allowance for episode screenshots shows that the project as a whole is aware of this. Secondly, that's why I posted just earlier the message to help with clearing of unnecessary screenshots from TV episode articles. Either that will prompt them into action (meaning they will help fix images added by newer editors that are simply mimicking how other episode articles are presented), or will spawn discussion that should affirm the consensus or set up a new one. If the TV project has no objection to this remove, then there's no point in spending the time to FFD such images since there's agreement for those affected. --MASEM (t) 17:52, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
                  • I don't really care what the project thinks, since (as I noted) projects don't set policy. You seem to imply an assumption that it is only newer editors are adding episodic images. Evidence? The TV project aren't the only ones affected. Every reader of every episode article is affected, not just the few hundred listed as in the project. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:17, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

File:Winston Churchill 1941 photo by Yousuf Karsh.jpg

Seems to be used on 12 pages but only has rationale for two.--Canoe1967 (talk) 20:20, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

This was in the public domain in the source country on the URAA date. However, Canadian photos are still protected by copyright in the United States if the photographer bothered about copyright notices and copyright renewals. Many photos by Yousuf Karsh are claimed to be protected in the United States exactly because the photographer did make sure that the photos were published in compliance with United States copyright formalities. Thus, we have to assume that the photo is unfree in the United States. I have reduced the image per WP:NFCC#3b and added a non-free licence tag. The WP:NFCC#9 violations should be trivial to fix. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:44, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

I have deleted the old revisions of this image in case it is decided to continue using it under fair use. James086^Talk 21:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I only brought it up because it is used in more than the fair use articles allowed. Is it four articles maximum? Should we seek consensus on which ones, or just the ones that have rationale now?--Canoe1967 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

There is no maximum limit as long as the use complies with WP:NFCC. That said, I think that the image fails WP:NFCC#1 in Churchill caretaker ministry and Churchill war ministry. There are multiple images in Commons:Category:Winston Churchill which are in the public domain in the United States, and those images can be used instead. For example, File:Sir Winston S Churchill.jpg doesn't look too bad. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

I feel it should only go in the article of the creator. National Recording Registry has a rationale that I don't agree with according to policy. Should we remove it from all except for the photographer article then?--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

{{done}}? I left it in just the one article and changed the image in the others. If no one objects can we close this review?--Canoe1967 (talk) 14:48, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

File:Freud, girl-white-dog.jpg

Use in Art of the United Kingdom seems inappropriate. I question the third point of the rationale File:Freud, girl-white-dog.jpg#Fair use for Art of the United Kingdom, which seems dubious and inadequate to me. I do not see where this specific portrait is discussed in the article. The only thing in the article that seems to have any connection to the image seems to be the statement "The "London School" of figurative painters including Francis Bacon, Lucian Freud, Frank Auerbach, Leon Kossoff, and Michael Andrews have received widespread international recognition". No direct reference is made to the image in that article. Thus I question whether the use of that image in that article satisfies NFCC#8. It appears to me it doesn't. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 14:11, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Once again Lucien Freud is an integral and crucial figure in the Art of the United Kingdom and it is important that his work be visually included in the article; probably needs more text...Modernist (talk) 02:33, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

WP:NFCI#7 says a non-free image of a painting can be used "For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school." In which way does the current use of this image in Art of the United Kingdom constitute critical commentary? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 06:42, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Toshio's right in that this is just being example of a named artist's work just to have an image there, but no reasoning behind the image. We're obviously going to have images like that on the artist's page and possibly on the artwork's own page if it exists, but there needs to be much stronger reason to include it as an example on a summary article like "Art of the UK". --MASEM (t) 12:47, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• We have a proscribed and limited reservoir of Freud's imagery. Lucien Freud (1922-2011), is or rather was along with Hockney and a very few others the most important living British artist and amongst the most significant figure painters of the 20th century. The image that we have to use is a portrait of Freud's first wife who was also the daughter of the famous American born English sculptor Sir Jacob Epstein and in my view it is an important visual addition to the article. However I agree with both Toshio and Masem that the inclusion should benefit with additional text. I will add some text over the next few days...Modernist (talk) 14:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Sufficient text now added on the specific to justify use. Johnbod (talk) 15:19, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Done - I added a NYTimes discussion of Freud and specifically Girl with White Dog with reference to the Times [3]...Modernist (talk) 15:20, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

That's actually pretty good (having the painting called out specifically in context via that quote); just note that we just use quotation marks to offset quotes, not italics. (per WP:QUOTE). --MASEM (t) 15:23, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Johnbod repaired my erroneous italics :)...Modernist (talk) 15:28, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

What Masem said, well done. If others agree, I will remove the template from the article and close this discussion. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 15:31, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

• Comment You have only discussed the problems related to this image in one of the articles, but there are also problems in other articles. In particular, it violates WP:NFG in a number of articles, and it also violates WP:NFCC#1 in some articles. There seem to be public domain paintings of the same type which could be used instead. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:45, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Agreed that the use in 20th-century Western painting#Realism, Landscape, Figuration, Still-Life, Cityscape fails WP:NFG. I also see no justification for this use. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 07:50, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Casper (cat)

This article could be improved with a non-free image, citing the fact that the cat is no longer with us. Before anyone uploads a copyrighted image I thought I would bring it up here.--Canoe1967 (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Certainly possible, since the cat's passed on, but I'd strongly recommend that the image has to include the cat getting on/off the bus, to provide better context. --MASEM (t) 00:21, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. I don't think I found that exact image but did find some of Casper by the door and seated. Many are low resolution as is, should they be reduced further?--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Can you provide an external link to the suggested images? Low res is fine for this, it just should be clear. --MASEM (t) 00:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Some I found from the find a grave website at the bottom. I didn't try google images. We may be able to email his fan club and get a free licence hi-rez one.--Canoe1967 (talk) 01:06, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

That might be a possibility (the free image approach). You can point them to WP:CONSENT to help them get a free image there. Should that fail, there's certainly a few from google images that can be used, or even screengrabs one could take from the various television reports on the cat. --MASEM (t) 03:00, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

{{resolved}}--Canoe1967 (talk) 19:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

File:My Beloved World cover.jpg

This fails WP:NFCC#8 in the article Sonia Sotomayor. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Absolutely a problem, per that, NFCC#3a (since the cover is just her photo, again), and the concept behind NFCI#1. If the book turns out notable, it can be used there, but not on a page about a person. --MASEM (t) 14:30, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

{{done}}. I removed the rationale and image from the bio article and left both for the book. This section can be closed unless policy is changed in the next few hours.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Images of Andrew Wyeth Paintings

Our use of several images of Andrew Wyeth paintings has been questioned by a representative of the copyrightholder. (OTRS agents can see the request at 2012080810007978 ).

I would like a review of each of these images, to determine whether we are in compliance.

In one case, File:LONGLIMB.jpg, it is my opinion that it is not compliant, as the painting isn't mentioned in the article. I have removed the image from the article, pending the results of this investigation.

Images:

• File:LONGLIMB.jpg appeared in Andrew Wyeth
• File:Christinasworld.jpg appears in Andrew Wyeth, 20th-century Western painting, Christina's World, Days of Heaven, History of painting, Western painting
• File:Andrew Wyeth Braids 1979.jpg appears in Andrew Wyeth, The Helga Pictures
• File:Overflow Andrew Wyeth.jpg appears in Andrew Wyeth, The Helga Pictures
• File:Latefall.jpg appears in Andrew Wyeth

--SPhilbrick(Talk) 12:20, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming that the copyright holder is the Wyeth estate or the closely related Brandywine River Museum - which do have a reputation for being pretty careful with copyright - which is, of course, their right. If somebody else is complaining, I'd ask why they think they have copyright standing. Our business is to check whether we are meeting our fair use standards. The "low resolution" standard is met for all the paintings. File:Christinasworld.jpg seems appropriate for the article Christina's World, but could easily be replaced in the other articles. Similarly File:Andrew Wyeth Braids 1979.jpg or File:Overflow Andrew Wyeth.jpg could be used in The Helga Pictures, but not both. Unless there is at least one freely licensed Andrew Wyeth painting in the world (doubtful - the general copyrightholder could tell you), then any single low-res AW painting could be used in the Andrew Wyeth article (I'd suggest a tempura painting), but multiple paintings aren't needed. Hope this helps. Smallbones (talk) 13:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I believe it is the estate. Thanks for your feedback. Obviously, others are welcome to chime in, but I'll provide this feedback to the person contacting us, especially to see if there are any freely licensed images.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 14:33, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion File:Christinasworld.jpg which is in the MoMA collection in NYC and is perhaps Wyeth's best known work; with iconic status is an important addition to all 3 of the painting history articles that it is currently in as well as the Andrew Wyeth article itself. Wyeth occupies an important place in American art of the mid 20th century and it is both respectful and informative to include an image of his remarkable paintings. Christina's World has the recognizability and quality to represent Wyeth well in the History of Painting, and Western Painting which are meaningful and historical painting surveys as well as 20th-century Western painting which focuses on more recent art; in which Wyeth should be represented...Modernist (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion File:Christinasworld.jpg is not needed in Days of Heaven and it doesn't have a fair use resolution there and I've removed it from the article...Modernist (talk) 17:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Christina's World was not discussed (or even mentioned) in either 20th-century Western painting or Western painting, so I've removed it from both. Kaldari (talk) 19:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I added the text that was omitted, thank you for catching the omission...Modernist (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Kaldari (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Smallbones about The Helga Pictures. I don't think we can justify having 2 copyrighted images in the article when neither of them are directly discussed. I would favor either removing both or keeping File:Andrew Wyeth Braids 1979.jpg and removing File:Overflow Andrew Wyeth.jpg (as the text does at least mention her braids). Kaldari (talk) 20:06, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree as well although I greatly prefer keeping File:Andrew Wyeth Braids 1979.jpg because it is a widely known painting that is associated with the The Helga Pictures, and works well here Helga paintings, much better than the File:Overflow Andrew Wyeth.jpg...Modernist (talk) 20:28, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• In my opinion, History of painting is far too focussed on particular paintings, because the corresponding general content is just not there. If it were, the article would three times longer; it would be too long and shortened /split off, and some of the fair use images would not remain. Not sure what to do at the present juncture though, as I cannot contribute the content at this time.
• Five non-free images for a single painter is usually excessive; File:Latefall.jpg appears to be undiscussed in the article completely, as is Overflow. THis ought to change if the images are to be retained. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 20:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

• I went ahead and removed Overflow and Latefall. Neither were being properly used as fair-use illustrations in the articles. I'm still a bit concerned about our use of Christina's World in 5 different articles, though. It seems to be pushing the boundary of "minimal use". Kaldari (talk) 02:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for those removals, Christina's World is Wyeth's seminal work and he was a major force in American painting; I agree that 5 is the absolute max for that image...Modernist (talk) 18:29, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm fine with leaving it in Western painting and 20th-century Western painting. The discussion of it in History of painting was a bit gratuitous and didn't really add anything to the section. I've removed it there. At this point, I think I'm satisfied that all the uses are justified. Kaldari (talk) 01:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Also, apparently we aren't supposed to use non-free images in more than 4 articles, according to Wikipedia:Database reports/Overused non-free files. Kaldari (talk) 01:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, good work...Modernist (talk) 02:39, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

File:Hamad International Airport

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This article has too many non-free images, so many of them will have to be removed. Some have been tagged as replaceable, but I'm not sure if this is correct. It says that the airport currently is under construction, so it might not yet be accessible to the general public, and in that case, the images are currently irreplaceable in my opinion. I searched for the airport on Google but didn't find a lot of images of it, which could support the idea that the airport isn't accessible to the general public. --Stefan2 (talk) 12:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The files used in the article were hosted by Flickr and DohaNews twitter account as well as its blog. i have credited the author in my posting. The airport is accessable to media and to people who have permits--its no secret whats inside. There are pictures from the newspaper even on its interior. I hope that you consider removing the tag. Thanks man. --Halawala (I am not sure if my comment is appropriately placed--as I am new to posting comments here. Thanks.

If you can get the copyright holder to release for use by anyone, then there will not be an issue. But your claim that the site. While a particular shot from inside the buildings may not be "replaceable" there is nothing significantly lost from the article by not having any of those images present. A building is a building and its not going anywhere and so the claim that we have to use non free images does not have any legs. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The current use seems to go against WP:NFG, which says that non-free images should usually not be used in a gallery. Also, those images seem to be replaceable. Normally, non-free images cannot be used if a free image conveying the same information could be created. If this is what the airport still looks like, then someone can go there, take pictures similar to those ones discussed here and upload them under a free license and in such a case, non-free images cannot be used on Wikipedia. Finally, the article can essentially be understood without them. Non-free images can only be used, if their removal would harm a readers understanding of the article, but in this case, there is no text specifically referring to those images, so they just seem to decorate the article and it still could be understood, if the images were not present. And even if there were text specifically referring to those images, they could only be used if the purpose they serve in the article cannot adequately be achieved by written text. Therefore those images cannot be used in the article (relevant Wikipedia policy here is point 8 of the non-free content criteria). -- Toshio Yamaguchi 13:38, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

File:Pb1253.jpg

I didn't tag this one because it is used in three articles. The article on Ms. Monroe herself actually discusses the centerfold and not the cover. Should another image of the centerfold be uploaded as fair use because that is what the text is actually discussing?--Canoe1967 (talk) 17:30, 17 February 2013 (UTC) {{resolved}}--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:36, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

File:SA Navy Badge.png

Fails WP:NFCC#8 in South African National Defence Force and South African military ranks. --Stefan2 (talk) 22:45, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, the uses in South African military ranks are purely decorative, so no justification is possible there. Same goes for South African National Defence Force, where it is simply used as an icon. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 17:01, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Beijing 2008 Olympic bid logo.svg

Used twice in Bids for the 2008 Summer Olympics but it only has one fair use rationale for that article. Per WP:NFCC#10c, there should be one fair use rationale for each use of the image. Besides, the image fails WP:NFG at one of the places in the article. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:08, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

All those "Bids for YYYY Olympics" articles need to remove the logos from the table, likely fixing all the duplicate use issue. (See the 2004 athens bit above). --MASEM (t) 13:28, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Some images were deleted (see Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2012 August 21) and more images are up for deletion (see Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2012 September 2). Would it be OK to move these sections further up on the page so that they are all next to each other? --Stefan2 (talk) 15:49, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, though I would group them under a new h2 header so that individual cases can be closed out. --MASEM (t) 17:20, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

File:Athens 2004 Olympic bid logo.png

This file is used twice in the article Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics. Per WP:NFCC#10c, non-free files should have a fair use rationale for each use of the image. This means that a file used twice in an article should have two fair use rationales for that article. However, this file only has one fair use rationale. Besides, one of the uses of this image fails WP:NFTABLE. --Stefan2 (talk) 18:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I just spot-checked other articles in the "Bids for the YYYY Olympics" series, and they all suffer the same problem in that they have tables of non-free logos. I am pretty confident that nearly every major contemporary bid for being an Olympic city could be a notable topic on its own, allowing the logos to be used there, but certainly not the table of logos as given now on each of those pages. --MASEM (t) 18:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Within the topic of Olympic bids, these table lists help readers to compare the different bidding cities. Assuming that, their logos are better located in those tables than in thumbnails outside them. These two distinct forms of content display (table and thumbnail), are basically the same regarding the purpose of use, therefore, in a table or not, it actually does not change anything. The location of the logo is pointless, WP:NFTABLE should not be applicable here. Felipe Menegaz 22:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. The location doesn't change anything, which is exactly why they would also fail WP:NFCC#8 if placed as thumbnails outside the tables. --Stefan2 (talk) 22:41, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

(ec)But it does. Without any discussion in depth about the image of the logo itself from sources (who drew it, what was the inspiration, etc?) the logos are simply identifying the bid attempt, and fail WP:NFCC#8 (the article is understandable without the images in use). If each bid had its own separate article - again, something I believe could happen with more recent ones - the logo would be appropriate on those articles, but non-free logo use is not appropriate in tables nor when the page is not about the entity the logo represents. --MASEM (t) 22:42, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics is an article about five entities—Candidate cities—represented by logos, and the descriptions of which logo would be not understandable without the images. Felipe Menegaz 22:53, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

No, the article is about the bidding process for the 2004 Summer Olympics. Because the 5 city efforts are reduced to a table, the article is not about those but the overall bidding process. Non-free logos are not appropriate here. --MASEM (t) 22:59, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

This is irrelevant. The bidding process only exists because of the entities that constitute it. That is why the article is called Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics, not 2004 Summer Olympics bid process. Felipe Menegaz 23:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics is not the name of an entity. Thus, the article isn't an article about an entity, but an article about something different. The images would be suitable in the separate articles Greek bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics, Italian bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics, South African bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics, Swedish bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics and Argentinian bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics, but they are not suitable in this article. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:08, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

"Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics" is an article about five entities, and I don't see why those entities need a separate article—which would characterize a WP: CFORK—to be represented by their logos. File:Athens 2004 Olympic bid logo.png has been there for more than five years now, representing a defunct entity and does not offer any commercial risk. Same for the other logos. Felipe Menegaz 23:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

"Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics" is an article about a process and not about an entity. The logos would only be acceptable in those five individual articles. If those individual articles don't exist, then the images will be taken care of by WP:NFCC#7. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:28, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

As I said, "Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics" is primarily an article about the bids (entities), the bidding process is a consequence. And they are already taken care of by WP:NFCC#7. Felipe Menegaz 23:34, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

For purposes of using NFCC, that's not how this is. And the point that I'm making is that I think for all these cases, the individual bid attempts by each city are notable themselves. For example, considering the Vancouver bid (I live in the region so it was all the news here) was definitely [4] well covered by news sources, so it is completely reasonable to have an article on Vancouver's bid, giving more space to discuss the facets of it, as well as the other cities involved. The logo would be find on those pages. But per all the reasonings above and consensus for other use of non-free images, just putting the non-free image in a table is not acceptable. We dont allow it for discographies or episode lists even if there are no articles for the individual elements, and we would certainly not allow it here. --MASEM (t) 23:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

However, there is no extensive news sources for the Olympic bids prior to 2008. It will not be reasonable to have five separate stubs or poorly written articles for the 2004 bids. Nevertheless, this should not make the 2004 logos inapplicable for use in the article "Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics". WP:NFTABLE prohibition is usually applied, but should be considered on a case-by-case basis. The Candidate cities table is essential for comparison between the Candidate cities, and the visual identity of the represented campaigns helps the readers to easily identify the bid. It is not an extensive list and does not represent the same entity in several items, like in the cases you've mentioned. It is a totally different situation. Felipe Menegaz 00:03, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I remember that there was an awful lot of writing about the Swedish Olympic bid here in Stockholm. It should be very easy to find information in it in Swedish newspapers from that time. What you are saying about no extensive news sources for the pre-2008 bids is obviously not correct. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:29, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

No bid before 2008 have extensive news sources as the ones after 2008. The campaigns to host the 2008 Games were made between 1999 and 2001, and since then, internet has played a major role as news source. Olympic bids are mainly covered by news articles, not books, and this type of news articles, prior to the internet era, are very hard to find. As a Swedish and citizen of Stockholm, maybe you can provide some of these sources? Felipe Menegaz 00:38, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Newspapers have existed for a much longer time than the Internet. All you need to do is to visit a library in the country where the newspapers were published. Anyway, this doesn't really have anything to do with the images. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:45, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

So that's it? I have to travel to Sweden, make a research of old newspapers about the Stockholm 2004 Olympic bid and write a separate, comprehensive article about it in order to maintain the use of File:Stockholm 2004 Olympic bid logo.svg? Seems reasonable... Felipe Menegaz 00:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Remember, we are a free content encyclopedia first and foremost, and only use non-free images wehre they significant help the reader and their omission would be harmful. So putting that in the form that you're trying the justify the use of non-free images is not really a good approach, because non-free use is supposed to be exceptional, not routine.

That said, all you need at the moment is to show that there was some type of coverage of that event. You don't need a fully complete article, just that it likely can be met. --MASEM (t) 00:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Also note that WP:NFCC doesn't take into account the effort needed to make the images compatible. For example, living people (such as Kim Jong-un) are not allowed to have non-free images since someone can visit the person and take a freely licensed photo of him. Going to a foreign country to take a photo of a random living person may be comparable in terms of effort to going to a library in a foreign country to find information about something. --Stefan2 (talk) 01:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Felipe Menegaz. Intoronto1125TalkContributions 01:12, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't see the difference between having the logo on a separate article or in the Bids for YYYY Olympics article. In matter of effect, it is the same thing. Not just would be the images be deleted, but also the articles under WP:CFORK. That's the point. WP:NFCC or WP:LOGOS do not prohibits the display of more than one entity's logo within the same article. In the discussed topic, these logos are relevant to the article, which is about the bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics.

The use of this logos is exceptional, not routine. For the record, I do not support the maintenance of Olympic pictograms such as File:Athletics 2008.png. And I've already explained how these logos and tables help readers... Felipe Menegaz 01:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The existence of a separate article or not is irrelevant. Regardless of whether a separate article exists or not, the images are not suitable in the table in the article Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics. If the removal of the images from that table means that the images become orphaned, then the images should be deleted from Wikipedia since non-free images have to be used at least once per WP:NFCC#7. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Irrelevant? This issue was raised by yourself (The images would be suitable in the separate articles "Greek bid for the 2004 Summer Olympics", "Italian...), and since that is the only way to maintain these logos according to you, this is totally relevant. Saying that the images are not suitable in the table in the articles Bids for the 2004 Summer Olympics is your interpretation of WP:NFTABLE. I do not agree with that interpretation and that is why I am arguing about that these logos are equally suitable to both articles and also to the discussed tables. Felipe Menegaz 16:34, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Is this discussion over? Felipe Menegaz 21:02, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

The other images were deleted (since they only appear in the table). Can we also delete this image from the table now so that the discussion can be closed? --Stefan2 (talk) 11:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

The images should not be deleted without consensus. Therefore, I think that this discussion cannot be closed. Felipe Menegaz 21:45, 4 September 2012 (UTC)