Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2024 December 8

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December 8

when to go to ANI?

I know it’s discouraged to go to ANI, but I’m unsure of where to take a conflict with a user. I don’t think their edits are considered vandalism by Wikipedia standards/warrant a full rollback but I do think they are disruptive and might need a WP:CIR block. I (and many others) have addressed this in both user and article talk pages, but they do not seem to understand the issues raised.

Things this editor has done include repeatedly not citing sources, repeatedly citing blogs, edit warring/ownership, and has partially deleted talk page discussion in a manner that changes what the original post means (instead of fully blanking). It also appears this editor may not have a good grasp of English due to the mispellings and grammar issues they have introduced.

I’ve lurked for a lot of my WP career and feel like I have a good grasp of policy, but I’m not sure where to go with this. Thanks, Sarsenet (talk) 01:45, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Making some assumptions based on your edit history on who you might be referring to, and if I'm looking at the correct user, they've already been blocked once, and appear to still have a problem differentiating between what their opinion of what WP is, versus what it really is, is a continuing problem, and raising it over at ANI doesn't seem out of line given this extensive warning (and responses) by the user on their talk page. TiggerJay (talk) 03:09, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

You're looking at the correct user, this is the first editor I've considered bringing to ANI. Thank you for your advice! I will be raising the case soon. Sarsenet (talk) 06:05, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Consistent rejection of my adequately researched article on a notable person.

Dear Wikipedian,

I have authored a draft article on a notable Rabindra Sangeet singer based in West Bengal (an Indian state/province having the population of a 100 million people - the combined population of the UK and Canada).

I have cited a number of reliable sources on the singer from English as well as Bengali print and other media. However, my article has been rejected on the ground that it has not fulfilled the legitimate criteria of notability—that I must cite articles that pertain directly to the subject rather than having passing references to him.

To quote the reason stated - " they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the guidelines on the notability of people)"

In this context, I would like to clarify that -

1) On "signficiant coverage" - The person was famous as a Tier 1 singer in the Rabindra Sangeet genre in West Bengal throughout the 80s and 90s. Thus, his coverage in those sources available online are limited, though far from nonexistent.

2) The sources that I cited all focused solely on the artist—his contribution and legacy—and were not making a mere passing reference to the artist. I can affirm that each one of the sources spoke directly, solely, and in detail about the artist.

3) The sources I cited are all published, reliable, secondary, and independent of the subject. None of them are personal blogs or allied platforms. On the contrary, they are highly credible, established platforms of print and online media in Bengali and English.

To elucidate on point 3:

a) I cited "Anandabazar Patrika" twice—by attaching two articles that solely speak on the legacy of the singer on whom I wrote. " Anandabazar Patrika is the most acclaimed newspaper in Indian Bengali print media, whose daily print circulation exceeded 800,000 in 2022 (by comparison, The Wall Street Journal has less than 650,000 papers in print circulation, The New York Times has less than 300,000, and Prothom Alo, being Bangladesh's largest paper, has about 500,000).

Also, Anandabazar Patrika has been widely cited in the Wikipedia pages of Srikanto Acharya.

b) I also cited Washington Bangla Radio, which is a highly credible source of enquiry into Bengali art and culture, having an enormous coverage and archive of Bengali artistic ventures and artistes. It has been cited by some other fellow Wikipedian in the page on Chinmoy Chatterjee, another prominent Rabindr Sangeet Singer from West Bengal.

c) I went on to cite the Youtube Video on the artist from the official Youtube video of Hindusthan Records, which attributes its information to their own archives.

d) BookMyShow has been cited by me. The same has been cited in the Wikipedia page of another prominent Rabindra Sangeet singer, Srikanto Acharya.

Shourjo Roychaudhuri (talk) 07:46, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

[on Draft:Sreekumar Chatterjee:] Shourjo Roychaudhuri, if there is indeed "significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject [Sreekumar Chatterjee] in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject", then here, in this thread, please nominate three good examples of such sources. (No more than three, please.) -- Hoary (talk) 08:57, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Sreekumar Chatterjee definitely doesn't meet the required standard for article mainspace at the moment. The sourcing is thin, and parts of it read like a CV. These are common reasons for a draft article to be turned down, and they would need to be fixed.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 10:38, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Shourjo Roychaudhuri I think that the main problem is that the sources you use are not independent of Chatterjee as most are based on interviews, where obviously people say what they want. For Wikipedia notability we want mainly to know what sources that have not been fed information by the subject have said about him. Sources do not have to be available online (see WP:OFFLINE). Mike Turnbull (talk) 17:15, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your response.

Based on your feedback, I shall remove the information and references based solely on interviews.

In this context, I will mention that the information that I have written in the article are all covered by the independent sources (those unrelated to interviews). However, as a fresher on Wikipedia, I erred in one aspect: I provided multiple references reiterating the same information. This explains why so many references have been included. And many of the interviews that I have provided briefly touch upon the information already affirmed in independent sources. Thus, the content will continue to be supported by sources even if I remove the autobiographical accounts and interviews.

I am grateful to you for having pointed out where exactly I went wrong.

I presume that if I want to get my article published, I shall first rectify and thereafter submit it again. Correct me if I am wrong. Shourjo Roychaudhuri (talk) 17:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. I will rectify those in my next submission. However, I can assure you that the information provided therein is all authentic, emperical, and verifiable, rather than being dependent upon solely autobiographical accounts. Shourjo Roychaudhuri (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

@Hoary Most certainly. The following three sources are entirely independent -

1) Hindustan Records Archive—uploaded via YouTube, containing the preserved works and a textual account of Dr. Sreekumar Chatterjee's early life, career, and legacy in the field of Rabindra Sangeet.

2) Shottojug Newspaper Article: 31st Edition, published 18th February 1986, section authored by journalist Bankim Chakraborty. Published during the peak of his career, it provides a full-page report extensively covering his early life, career, rise as a radio artist, and the new-found success of his CD albums. It also mentions his international tours.

3) Anandabazar Patrika article: Titled "Robibarer Anondo: Dr. Sreekumar Chattopadhyay-er Robibar Tarashankar ke gaan shonanor deen" Published by the Editorial Team (26th April, 2009). Anandabazar Patrika. p. 17. Archived from the original on 29-11-2024. Retrieved 28-11-2024. Provides extensive reporting of his legacy and career.

On a closing note, there is a BookMyShowpage of Dr.Sreekumar Chatterjee. Shourjo Roychaudhuri (talk) 17:45, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

I took a look, Shourjo Roychaudhuri:

(1) This is a compilation of his songs, accompanied by a short, unsigned, and highly laudatory text. (It ends "This compilation album is packed with such lovely yet mystical Tagore Songs. Dr. Sreekumar Chatterjee has rendered his rustic and melodious voice to these beautiful Rabindra Sangeet Songs from Bengal.")

(2) This sounds as if it should qualify. I see in a reference to the draft that its title is "Lalitkala - Sreekumar: Sukh-Dukh niyei tar shurer rajjopath"; this is not in a language that I understand, and no link to it is provided. Judging its quality must be a job for somebody who can find it, read it, and understand it.

(3) This is from a newspaper: a good sign. It is of course not your fault or the writers' fault that this mess was concocted with Microsoft FrontPage (an atrocious piece of software), but it was, with predictably horrid results. As I look at it (whether via Firefox or Chromium), the article appears to be titled "þ}þþAþyþyþSþÉþ}þHþÜþ þ{þ©þSþeþSþþAþjþv": certainly not what its authors had intended. What's the correct encoding system?

In sum -- (1): Doesn't qualify. (2) & (3): I am unable to judge. -- Hoary (talk) 23:22, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Problem archiving on Archive.org due to the Cloudflare page

I would like to archive the entirety of this website on Archive.org.

However, I tried with this page and Archive.org only saves the "Verifying you are human. This may take a few seconds" Cloudflare page, and not the content of the website. Same goes for any page of the website.

The owner of the website is an academic who has put all their publications on their website (categorised here), so I think this is important to archive the website.

Could someone please help? Veverve (talk) 10:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Your best bet would be to try other archival websites IMO. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:21, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Removing comments from your talk page

A user has a problem with me editing the comments she makes on my user talk page. The reply button is grade out. I think she would prefer them to be deleted. How do I delete comments please Sharnadd (talk) 12:23, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

For the Reply function to work, it needs a valid sig within the subheading. When you edited the comments on your usertalk to remove the signature of the editors adding them, you broke the Reply feature for those sections. Editing other people's comments is discouraged, even on your own talkpage (where removal is valid): see guidance at WP:TPG. To remove threads, tap "edit full page" from within the "three vertical dots" menu in the upper right. Folly Mox (talk) 13:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

When it comes to WP:REFACTORING your talk page, you're welcome to do so, as long as the way in which you make edits do not change the meaning of what has been written by others. You can completely delete entire sections, but caution should be used when removing parts of a section that might lead other people to misunderstand conversation taking place on your talk page. TiggerJay (talk) 22:31, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Can i revert an accidental GA delistment?

Hi! I accidently delisted Bleeding Through from the GA articles list. It was the last A class article for metal and I intended to comment but I clicked delist because I didn't know what I was doing. Can this please be reverted? Sorry. // Chchcheckit (talk) 15:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

aka: i wanted to comment and I thought i was commenting but i was not. Facepalm the nom was working on improving the article as well so. // Chchcheckit (talk) 15:12, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Note: I believe I have fixed this. I reverted all the script edits related to this article. If there's anything else I need to know about please give me a ping. mftp dan ^oops 15:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

AFC

Hello. May I ask: is the inclusion of the [citation needed] tag, even if only a single one, grounds for an article for creation to not be accepted for move to mainspace? Thanks. (Edited 15:27 08.12.2024) Ramkarlo82 (talk) 15:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ramkarlo82, An article will only be accepted if its free from any issues. any maintenance template like {{Citation needed}} are only placed to highlight maintenance related issues and that could lead to rejection of any Draft article submitted to Article for creation. Anyway, why should there be any such tag on a draft article yet as its not even accepted.––kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 17:10, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Ramkarlo82, I disagree with KEmel49. "Free from any issues" is a higher standard than is needed for acceptance in mainspace. I have had an article accepted by a reviewer while containing a tag. Maproom (talk) 17:20, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Maproom, I wonder how can an article non even in mainspace (and awaiting review) could contain such maintenance tag. can you please elaborate the scenario as "accepted by a reviewer" could also mean that the article was reviewed by Patroller, while this discussion is about AFC.––kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 17:32, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

A cn is a reasonably common tag, it appears and disappears as part of normal editing processes. It's worth keeping in mind though that a lack of a tag does not mean there is not an issue, and a reviewer may identify an issue without a tag present. CMD (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Ramkarlo82, the simple answer to your OP question, is "No". I agree with kemel49 and CMD; think of "ready for mainspace" and "has a {{cn}} tag" as two completely independent issues. So basically, just forget about the tags for now, and concentrate on the feedback you get from Afc reviewers, and if they are not talking about citations, then you don't need to worry about them. Mathglot (talk) 03:20, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Lake Assad in Syria

Please monitor the internet, as the name of this reservoir may change in a few days. Ffederal (talk) 16:39, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

@Ffederal, Steps will be taken based on discussion if such happened. Editors are discouraged to foresee things based on imagination.––kemel49^{(connect)(contri)} 17:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Can a government report be a reliable source about what is being reported?

I'm not too sure if the government report linked at Santiago de Compostela derailment is a WP:RELIABLESOURCE about the derailment itself.

I believe that the document is generally reliable as a description of the events unfolded on that tragic day. That said, who is to blame for the accident was/is a contentious topic, and it could be argued that, while the report does not make claims one way or the other, it is not written in a manner that would comply with WP:NPOV.

I would like to use it only to add facts to the article, giving more details about the exact sequence of events that happened, as the article is based mostly/fully on news reports, which, I believe, actually makes it less WP:NPOV.

Furthermore, the article has factual errors:

1. ASFA would not warn any train operators of overspeed, only if overspeed caused by exceeding the train's speed design characteristics, or by exceeding a limit imposed by approaching a signal showing "Danger" or "Caution", none of which happened on the accident day. (The exceeded speed restriction was due to a curve, that is, an infrastructure-imposed restriction)

1. The ERTMS section is poorly worded. The tracks were supposed to have ERTMS (but this had been non-operational for a long time) up to somewhere before the curve. This meant that, true, usual speed restriction signs were missing, but an operational ERTMS would not have warned of that specific restriction, it would only have warned, somewhere before the curve, of a transition to Level 0 (that is, to no supervision).

1. The article makes no mention that Spain's railway administrator was made well aware of the potential safety problems in that site.

1. The article makes no mention that a train employee called the train conductor on the company phone, about something unrelated, which made the conductor miss his mental (that is, not marked on the track) mark for applying the brakes.

1. Although not exactly a factual error, pointing out that the driver had posted a photo to Facebook boasting that he could "drive" at 200 km/h in a high speed train (when Spain's high-speed rail network is, at some places, rated for 350 km/h), is, in my point of view, just sensationalist nonsense.

1. In general, the sequence of events for the crash could be better explained.

Most/all of this things could be fixed (by me or someone else, I could start to work on it in the following weeks) if I could use the report as a source. Am I allowed to?

I hope someone can help me. Thank you very much!

Milo8505 _(talk) 20:43, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

I'd say feel free to cite this source, but be sure to attribute the claims both in a citation and in the text itself, like so:

A government report released in 1995 investigating the cause of the event stated that apples are a superior fruit, when comparing them to oranges.

References

And if the citation and by extension claim's inclusion is challenged, be sure to discuss it before readding any information found in it. Departure– (talk) 20:56, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Milo8505 _(talk) 21:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)