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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:48, 22 April 2010 [1].

On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away

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On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Nominator(s): —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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Take two: Better copy edited and more comprehensive than at its last review, I believe this article definitely meets the FAC criteria. A popular 19th century song that marked a watershed moment in musical history, this article presents some interesting information! It failed to pass the last review primarily due to lack of reviews. If you would be so kind as to review the article, I'd be glad to return the favor and review an article for you. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment No dab links. No broken links. --Esuzu (talk • contribs) 09:39, 3 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Am disappointed when articles on pieces of music make no mention of key, time signature, chord progressions, etc. Is it in a major key? Presumably, but there is no indication. Is there a repeated chord progression or two that the piece is built around, and which you could offer to the reader as "C–F–G" or "I–IV–V" etc? Far from being trivia, it helps the reader imagine what this music might sound like. Thanks, Riggr Mortis (talk) 02:57, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I do have this information in my source, and can add it to the article. I also have the sheet music, but am unsure how best to add that. I couldn't find an example in any of the current featured articles, probably because sheet music out on most of our songs is a copyright violation. Old Dan Tucker seemed the best example I could find, as it also nineteenth century and public domain. I hoped having the recordings of this song would help. Personally, I think it is difficult at best to convey musical sound in prose, sheet music being the best option short of a recording of the music. I will scan a copy of the sheet music to add. I will also add a line concerning the key and chord progession as well. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 04:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thanks for that. I don't think the article should depend on audio since in principle Wikipedia is consumed in a variety of formats. (Might you consider uploading all the sheet music since it's PD, and using a commons template to link to it?) Riggr Mortis (talk) 23:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • One other comment. I don't follow "Although the melody connecting the verses together is unique within the piece, it provides continuous unity with the verses". The melody is "unique within the piece", relative to what? Each verse uses a slightly different melody but the melody provides continuity among the verses? Riggr Mortis (talk) 23:08, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comments: I don't know much about music, but this article appears to be in very good shape. I do, however, have some concerns:
"Dresser joined with other prominent composers to seek a change in copyright laws to protect the reproduction of their work through recording and submitting a petition to the United States Congress in 1902"
Somewhat awkward phrasing, or the wrong tense on one word. Readers could be led to believe that the composers "recorded and submitted" their petition on a wax cylinder. I assume they didn't do this. This is probably a problem with tense: "Dresser joined"... "and submitted".
"Dresser officially dedicated the song to fourteen-year-old Mary South, a native of Terre Haute and likely inspiration for the Mary mentioned in the song."
I suggest "likely the inspiration"
"By the end of 1898, nearly one million copies of sheet music had been sold, taking Dresser to a high level of fame."
Seems somewhat awkward; I suggest "making Dresser famous."
The article states that Dresser made $100,000 on compositions, much of it based on this song. This is likely the equivalent of $1,000,000 or more today. But the article also states that Dresser died penniless. Although a thorough discussion of how that happened belongs on Dresser's article, the curious reader (or one of them, at least) wonders how he became penniless like that.
More later. Firsfron of Ronchester 17:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've addressed each of these. He spent very liberally at brothels and saloons, but even more taxing on his wealth, he gave away large sums of money to friends and family. The whole house of cards fell in on him when Howley Haviland and Co went bankrupt in 1905. He gave up on living, pretty much, and died a couple months later. (There are details regarding this on his article, which I also authored. Its still a work in progress.) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:03, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:SEEALSO, "Links already integrated into the body of the text are generally not repeated in a "See also" section". Wabash River and List of U.S. state songs are both already linked in the main text. Their use in the See also section is superfluous.
In Sources, "Henderson, Clayton W' should have a period after the initial. Easily remedied.
Images appear to check out:
File:On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away, sheet music cover with Bessie Davis, Paul Dresser, 1897.jpg is in the public domain.
File:Paul Dresser, 1897.jpg is in the public domain (nice work on the sharpening, BTW)
File:Wabash River Fairbanks Park downstream.JPG is attribution required.
File:On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away, chorus sheet music.jpg is in the public domain.
File:Theodore Dreiser.jpg is in the public domain (and not cropped, per the previous copyright holder's request).
More later. Firsfron of Ronchester 03:51, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've corrected those items too. Thanks! At one point the cite templates stopped putting periods automatically, I forgot about that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 12:17, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support. My concerns have been addressed; I can find nothing else to nitpick. The article is well-written, the images are correctly licensed, and the sources and citation format look good. Charles has written compellingly. Importantly (for me) the subject of the article is encyclopedia-worthy. Firsfron of Ronchester 15:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

  • "The now more widely known 1917 song Back Home Again in Indiana...". There is a strong time-sensitive element in here with "now"; any time something like this is included in an article, there's always a risk it could become outdated. Would it harm the meaning if it was removed?
  • There's no need for two links to Chicago in the Composition and popularity section.
    • Fixed
  • The link to Tommy White goes to a soccer player who isn't the intended target.
    • Fixed
  • The end of Controversies has reference 1 used twice in a single string. I would think that only the first would be needed.
    • Fixed
  • State song: "On the Banks of the Wabash, Far Away was adopted as the official state song by the Indiana General Assembly and signed into law by Governor Winfield T. Durbin". Was the song itself signed into law, or was it a bill of some sorts?
    • A bill which contained the lyrics of the song, clarified
  • "One of the leading causes of state song's fall into obscurity...". Missing a "the" in there.
    • Fixed
  • Adaptations: "The lyrics consisted of a verse lamenting the the dead...". Giants2008 (27 and counting) 02:38, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
T Hanks, I think I've fixed each of these. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 02:53, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SupportLeaning to support: Lovely article; but can you look at this one sentence: "Dresser later began traveling as part of performing acts and composing his own music." Doesn't seem properly phrased. What were these "performing acts"? Was he a member of a troupe, and was composing his music part of the acts? Needs some rephrasing for clarity. Apart from a few minor fixes which I can do myself, I see no reason to withhold support once this troublesome sentence is sorted out. Brianboulton (talk) 22:44, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I believe I have clarified. Thanks. :) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 22:54, 18 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fine, now, so full support. The 1902 recording is a gem. Brianboulton (talk) 08:54, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree! It was quite a find. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A very interesting read, on a song I've heard but never really thought about. Nice work. Comments. Leaning support; I have a few nitpicks and questions, but nothing that causes me to want to oppose its promotion. EDIT: Consider all nits picked. Steve T • C 14:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Linking could be better. I don't think there's any need to link to United States; a better option would be to link the entire phrase United States copyright law, perhaps with an anchor to an appropriate section of that article (if there is such a section). I'd also question the need to link common terms such as plagiarism and ballad.
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • " ... life near Dresser's childhood home by the Wabash River in Indiana. It remained popular for decades and the Indiana General Assembly adopted it as the official state song of Indiana on March 14, 1913."—the repetition of "Indiana" three times so close together jars a little. Perhaps you could lose that final "of Indiana"? By that point, it should be implicit.
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "1928 film"—should be 1923; perhaps a link would also be appropriate.
Your right, I typoed the date; it was correct in the body. Good catch. Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was among the earliest pieces of popular music to be recorded, and Dresser's inability to control the distribution of phonograph cylinders led him and other music companies to petition the United States Congress to expand federal copyright protections over the new technology."—this seems a little long. Is there an appropriate place to split? A semi-colon or period before "Dresser's" might be a good choice. Also, Dresser wasn't a company, so saying "Dresser and other music companies" sounds dead weird.
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Composition and popularity
  • "spring ... summer"—think of the children! Sorry, I mean the Australians (and other southern hemisphere readers). Can this be made clearer?
I had thought of that before actually, but couldn't think of another way to say it concisely. The exact months are not said in the sources, just the seasons, which is why I had worded it like I did. The only thing for certain is that he published it in October. Take a look and see what you think now. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per the MoS, ellipsis points are spaced either side, with a non-breaking space, e.g. "France, Germany ... and Belgium but not the USSR."
Fixed (I think) —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lyrics and analysis
  • "While the narrative of the verses are connected"—narratives? I'm not sure of the solution, but the original definitely doesn't work.
See what you think now —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is anything more known about real-life inspiration for the "lost love", Mary? Did she actually die, or was she a "lost love" in the more traditional sense? It's a little ambiguous.
Yes there is a bit more on her. Her and Dresser actually never met before the song was composed (he was a friend of her father), but she and he were pen pals, of a sort. She had sent him her photo which he kept on his desk. There was no true romance between them, he just used her name. Dresser's only known long-term relationship was with a Evansville Indiana (not sure of the polite term) prostitute. But they had a falling out about a decade before this song was wrote. Perhaps I should change it to say, the "inspiration for the name", as opposed than the way it reads now implying she is the inspiration for the character. I have changed that. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not really! Mandolin I figured was somewhat obscure and deserved a link, and then felt obliged to link the others as well. I've removed the rest now. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs)
Controversies
  • I dislike "controversy" and similar as a section title; it's a little sensationalist, and too vague an identifier for the section's content. Perhaps something more descriptive, such as "Disputed authorship and copyright"? Actually, that's a rubbish suggestion, but you get the idea.
I had thought of this as well, but could never think of a good title. See what you think now. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Good choice. Steve T • C
  • "His music copyrights were poorly managed after the bankruptcy of Haviland & Dresser Co."—perhaps "after Haviland & Dresser Co. went bankrupt"? The way it's worded makes it sound like the bankruptcy is something that's already been introduced.
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Adaptations
  • "Spanish-American War"—should use an en dash.
Fixed —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See also
  • List of Indiana state symbols is already used as a link in "State song", so per the see also guideline isn't really needed here. I don't know what removing the section will do to the two portal links, but even now one of them encroaches on the notes section.
I've removed the see also section; not sure were else to put the portals, so removed them too.
I tried them in the external links section with the other navigation templates; they seem to fit OK, but see what you think. Steve T • C
Other
  • I see you've used Gitelman, but is there anything helpful in the sources you haven’t used from Awadewit's list? Some of them seemed promising (see previous FAC).
  • The rest of the prose seems largely fine, apart from the above nitpicks and a little redundancy here and there; it might be worth your giving it one more pass with that in mind. Otherwise, nice work. Steve T • C 09:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Gitelman was mostly concerning Wabash's impact on the overall issue of being unable to control phonograph recordings under copyright law. That is noted in the article. The others on the list talk about the song more in passing, and I find the other sources used talk about the same things, but go in more depth, so I stuck with them in the article.
All points struck. Supported way up at the top. Steve T • C 14:07, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review, I addressed the concerns above, and will give the article a re-read and try to clear out any redundancy. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:30, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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