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Jochi

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Jochi (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 16 September 2024, 21:41 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.
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Nominator(s): ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jochi was, and remains, the most mysterious of the sons of Genghis Khan (I haven't got around to his sisters yet). The disputed circumstances of his birth, his conflicts with his brothers, his growing independence and estrangement from his father, his early death... all have contributed to a murky image of the man. Hopefully, this article will bring some clarity. If successful, this nomination will be used in the WikiCup. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:29, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

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  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:Batu_Khan_on_the_Throne_by_Rashid_al-Din.jpg needs a US tag
  • File:Khwarezmian_Empire_1190_-_1220_(AD).PNG needs a source for the data presented

HF - support

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I'll review this soon. Hog Farm Talk 23:00, 1 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Religion of Tengrism seems only to be mentioned in the infobox
  • I don't think the 1227 deaths category is strictly appropriate, Category:1220s deaths seems preferable given the uncertainty over the date of his death
    • Adjusted
  • Check the page range on Dafeng & Jianyi - the short citation is to p. 190 but this page is outside of the range given in the long citation
    • Ah, a typo.

I am very much not familiar with the subject matter, so the review is more surface-level than I prefer my reviews to be, but this appears to be an excellent article. From a nonexpert look, the sourcing all appears to be reputable. Hog Farm Talk 00:47, 2 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Matarisvan

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Hi AirshipJungleman29, my comments:

  • "one of their number": "members" instead of number?
    • I believe they mean the same thing; what's the improvement?
  • "excluded from succession": prefix a "the" before "succession"?
    • Adjusted.
  • In the infobox, can we list the campaigns Jochi participated in?
  • "badly contradictory": "highly" instead of "badly"?
  • "named Qutlugh Khatun...": "namely" instead of "named"?
  • "reorder his new nation, dividing the nation": "it" instead of "the nation"? The latter is repetitive.
  • "in the expectation": "with" instead of "in"?
  • Link to Christopher Atwood in the body?
    • All done.
  • "triumphant return from battle": do we know which battle this was? Does the SHM reveal this?
    • Clarified.
  • "captured Otrar": link to Otrar Catastrophe?
  • "Upon the city's eventual fall": "after" instead of "upon"? Idk why but the latter seems grammatically incorrect.
  • "take his time hunting": "spend" instead of "take"?
  • "greatly fond of": "very" instead of "greatly"?
    • All done.
  • "Sources for 1225:[46]

Sources for 1227:[47]" -> Add spaces after 1225 and 1227?

    • I don't think that's necessary, but done.
  • "Ulytau Region, Kazakhstan, has...": rephrase to "Ulytau Region in Kazakhstan has..."?
    • Done.
  • Could we add images of the Siege of Gurganj/Gurganj Fort, and the courses of the Irtysh and Angara rivers? I believe these will better illustrate their respective text.
    • We don't have high-quality depictions of the siege. Added a map of the Irtysh.

I'll have to check for comprehensiveness, because I somehow feel something is missing in the article. I don't know what though. Matarisvan (talk) 17:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A support from me on the general text then. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 16:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

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  • All sources are from reliable publishers and authors.
  • Thinking of doing spot checks for 10 refs, about 20% of total refs. Will try to get these done within this week. Cheers Matarisvan (talk) 17:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Spot checks:
    • #5, #51, #45, #38, #37, #32, #28, #21, #9: ok.
    • #41: Source doesn't explicitly say "designed to buttress Ögedei's rule as khan of the empire", it just says "harmonization between the "standard narrative"".
      • Adjusted page numbers.
    On comprehensivess, why don't we have these details:
    • "Jochi also accompanied SÜBE’ETEI BA’TUR’s first campaign against the Qipchaqs (1218–19)", the dates from "Jochi campaigned with Cha’adai and Ögedei in southwest Inner Mongolia (November 1211) and in Hebei and Shanxi (autumn 1213)", and "Chinggis Khan assigned to Jochi KHORAZM and the steppes from the river Chu on west, intending them as a base for the conquest of the Qipchaqs" from Atwood 2004.
      • Added the dates for the Chinese campaigns. The other details are in the article.
    • Dunnell 2023 also confirms: "Discord among Chaghadai, Jochi, and Ögödei prolonged the siege (it lasted at least five months), causing a high Mongol casualty rate. When Urgench finally fell in spring of 1221 after great slaughter, the survivors were driven out, divided up, and dispatched in the usual fashion. Jochi parted ways with his brothers and moved north into the steppes, ostensibly to subdue the Qipchaq tribes."
      • All of this is in the article.
    • Also, we should list the probable Mongol casualties at Gurganj to give context on why Genghis considered it a failure. Matarisvan (talk) 09:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from PMC

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Within the week hopefully. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 18:02, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Premeditated Chaos gentle poke ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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